Crown Court - Further Charges (1974) - video Dailymotion

Jezza

Crown Court - Further Charges. Peter Elgar has been arraigned on the charge of arson. Bernard Archard, Richard Wilson, David Ashford and John Barron star.

Transcript

00:00:00The End

00:00:30As set out in the Criminal Damage Act of 1971

00:00:32But in simplest terms, one word will suffice

00:00:36Arson

00:00:37The prosecution has just called its first witness

00:00:40Station Officer Roy Pettit of Fulchester-Farbergen

00:00:42You received a shout, you say?

00:00:47Yes, my lord, excuse me

00:00:48I should say, we received a call from Command Control

00:00:51Thank you

00:00:52To a fire at number 17 Manning Street, Fulchester

00:00:55The pump escape and the pump with myself in charge were ordered

00:00:58We arrived at the address at 20.59 hours

00:01:03At which time half the ground floor of number 17 was well alight

00:01:06Yes, this was a shop known as Elgar and Stroud Antique and Fine Furniture Dealers

00:01:11That's correct

00:01:11Now you got there in four minutes, that's very good going, isn't it?

00:01:15Yes

00:01:15There was fortunately very little traffic at that time of evening

00:01:18I was first on the scene

00:01:20And I rang the bells and banged on both front doors

00:01:23Both front doors?

00:01:24One to the shop and one to the flats above

00:01:26There was no one in the shop, so we had to effect an entry

00:01:30Yes, how did you effect an entry?

00:01:32By forcing both the locks on the front door

00:01:34The door being locked from the outside?

00:01:36Yes, my lord

00:01:37Shops are always locked from the outside

00:01:38Unless, of course, the proprietor lives on the premises

00:01:42Well, that's true

00:01:44Yes, I'm grateful to your lordship for mentioning this

00:01:46The fact that the front door was securely locked from the outside is significant

00:01:50Please carry on, Mr Pettit

00:01:52I ordered two house-reel jets to be laid out

00:01:54And a message to be sent by radio

00:01:56Mike pumps four

00:01:57Persons reported

00:01:59Persons reported?

00:02:01In my opinion, it was not 100% sure that everyone was out of the building

00:02:04So what did you do about that?

00:02:06I sent a couple of BA men up to ventilate and search

00:02:08Yes, BA men

00:02:10Members of the crew with breathing apparatus

00:02:12Yes

00:02:12There was a lot of smoke going up the staircase

00:02:14Now, it was at this time that a lady's head appeared at one of the windows on the second floor

00:02:19She must have had her front door open because the smoke going upstairs was coming out of her window

00:02:23She was in a panic

00:02:25We shouted at her not to jump, that we'd have a ladder up to her in no time

00:02:28But there was too much noise

00:02:30Maybe she didn't hear us

00:02:31She jumped

00:02:32One of my crew tried to break her fall

00:02:35And I think he did, slightly

00:02:37But she still hit the pavement and was seriously injured

00:02:41Yes, am I right in saying that this lady was the only person to suffer injury as a result of the fire?

00:02:46That's correct

00:02:46But had it not been for the prompt arrival and action of the fire brigade

00:02:50These steps leading up to the flats above could have caught fire

00:02:53And all the tenants' lives would have been in danger

00:02:55My lord, my lonely friend is leading the witness and also asking him to conjecture

00:02:59Yes, that is so, Mr Lottaby

00:03:01But the witness is qualified to give an expert opinion

00:03:03And I don't see why we shouldn't hear it

00:03:04Mr Pettit, would you say that the fire in the shop premises might have spread to the flats above

00:03:11And so endangered the safety of the tenants?

00:03:13You're quite happy, Lord

00:03:14We got it under control just in time to prevent it spreading upstairs

00:03:17But the tenants did have ample warning to get out of the building

00:03:20Then their lives were not endangered

00:03:24Now, I ask you to think very carefully before you answer that question

00:03:28Because it relates directly to that part of the charge against the defendant

00:03:31Which reads, being reckless as to whether the lives of the tenants of 17A Manning Street

00:03:38Would be thereby in danger

00:03:41I would say that, as it happened, their lives were not in immediate danger

00:03:47But if the fire had spread more quickly, as it might have done

00:03:50Or if the alarm had been given a bit later, say 10 or 15 minutes later

00:03:53Then some lives definitely would have been in danger

00:03:56I see

00:03:57Thank you, Mr Parson

00:03:59Thank you, my lord

00:04:00Now, to go back to the fire in the shop itself, what happened there?

00:04:04The whole place was alight

00:04:05Wooden furniture burning like logs

00:04:08The fire was most intense at the back of the shop

00:04:11It was 15 minutes to get through into that back room

00:04:13The back room? Is that part of the shop as well?

00:04:15Yes, and it took another half hour to get the flames in there under control

00:04:18Now, was it furniture burning in there as well?

00:04:21It was difficult to tell what it was that was burning

00:04:23But I subsequently discovered that that was where the fire had originated

00:04:27Well, how did you learn that?

00:04:29Well, investigations after the fire showed that it had been burning for a longer period there

00:04:32Because the structural damage was more severe

00:04:35Due to the extent of charring on bulk timbers

00:04:38And the amount of spoiled plaster in that area

00:04:40Spoiled plaster?

00:04:41A spoiled, my lord

00:04:43Meaning flaking off under extreme heat

00:04:45Spore

00:04:46Oh, yes, I once had that word in a crossword puzzle

00:04:50Yes

00:04:51Anything else?

00:04:53Anything else?

00:04:54I mean, did you notice anything else in the back room?

00:04:56Yes, a five-gallon drum in the corner of the room

00:04:58It was scorched and discolored and slightly buckled from the heat, but otherwise intact

00:05:03And what did it contain?

00:05:04Well, it was empty

00:05:05But it had contained paraffin

00:05:07Well, how did you know it had contained paraffin?

00:05:10You could smell it

00:05:11There was a strong smell of paraffin that side of the room

00:05:13And the can itself smelled of it

00:05:14I see

00:05:15And anything else about the can?

00:05:16Oh, yes, the tap

00:05:18The little tap at the bottom was in a diagonal position

00:05:21Meaning what?

00:05:22Well, meaning that it was neither fully closed nor fully open

00:05:25Yes, but what effect would that have if the can had been full of paraffin when it was put there with the tap in that position?

00:05:34There would have been a leakage

00:05:35Yes

00:05:35Paraffin would be dripping from the tap for some considerable time

00:05:39Yes

00:05:39Apart from the can, was there also a paraffin heater in the room?

00:05:42No

00:05:42Well, what about the front part of the shop?

00:05:45Was there a paraffin heater there?

00:05:47No

00:05:47Was there a paraffin heater anywhere on the premises?

00:05:50No, there were electric radiators

00:05:51Electric radiators?

00:05:53Mm-hmm

00:05:54Well, what was the five-gallon can of paraffin for?

00:05:57I've no idea

00:05:58But would you say whoever set fire to the shop used this paraffin in order...

00:06:02Yes, Mr. Lottabin, Mr. Parsons, you know perfectly well that it is for the jury to decide whether or not someone set fire to the shop

00:06:09I'm sorry, my lord

00:06:10Perhaps I may rephrase the question

00:06:12Yes, please do so

00:06:14Mr. Pettit, would you say that however the fire was started, the paraffin in that part of the room was the reason that the conflagration spread so rapidly?

00:06:23Oh, yes

00:06:24Without the paraffin, there would have been a much longer period of smouldering before there was enough fire to spread

00:06:29There's a fair amount of smoke with this preliminary stage of smouldering so that often a fire is detected before it's really caught hold

00:06:37But with paraffin

00:06:38Instant flames

00:06:39Yes

00:06:39Now, was there any indication that this fire had been started with the use of paraffin?

00:06:45Well, with respect, it's not for me to give opinion on the origin of a fire

00:06:49I mean, that's not my function, that's for the fire prevention officer

00:06:52Yes, who in this case was Divisional Officer Norman Cook

00:06:56Yes

00:06:57Yes, my lord, perhaps this is a good opportunity to introduce under Section 9 of the Criminal Justice Act 1967 Division Officer Cook's report

00:07:04Yes, yes, you don't object, Mr. Lottabier

00:07:07No, my lord

00:07:07I will not read the home report, my lord

00:07:10I'll just read the final sentence

00:07:12Because of a shortage of evidence to indicate precisely how the fire would have arisen, accidental or otherwise

00:07:20And because of the unexplained presence of paraffin, the fire can only be described as of doubtful origin

00:07:26Now, do you agree with this statement by the fire prevention officer?

00:07:30Yes, I do

00:07:31Of doubtful origin, meaning suspicious

00:07:34Well, not suspicious, exactly

00:07:37Oh, Mr. Pettit, now, surely there are only two ways that a fire can be started, either accidentally or deliberately

00:07:42Yes, my lord

00:07:42So that of doubtful origin must mean that there is an element of suspicion that the fire was caused deliberately

00:07:49Well, isn't that so?

00:07:49I suppose so, yes

00:07:52Thank you

00:07:53No further questions, my lord

00:07:54Now, Mr. Pettit, I appreciate your reluctance to express an opinion as to how the fire was started

00:08:01If one thinks of the presence of that paraffin in the back room of the shop, it would be only too easy for you to have said to yourself

00:08:07Ah, so that's how someone got the fire started

00:08:09But that was not your conclusion, was it?

00:08:11Not definitely, no

00:08:12No, and neither was it the definite conclusion of the fire prevention officer whose written report we just heard read

00:08:18Now, a few moments ago you stated that a fire often has a preliminary period of smouldering, is that right?

00:08:26Yes

00:08:26Now, for how long a period can a fire sometimes smoulder before it breaks out in flames?

00:08:32Oh, some considerable time

00:08:34Could you be more specific than that? Could the smouldering period last for, say, an hour?

00:08:38Longer than that

00:08:39How long?

00:08:40Several hours, in the right circumstances

00:08:42What circumstances?

00:08:44Well, it would depend on the substance involved

00:08:46Some substances can smoulder for a very long time

00:08:49Such as?

00:08:51Carpets, rugs

00:08:52Anything else?

00:08:54Cushions

00:08:54Yes

00:08:55Leaves, especially if the leaves are slightly damp

00:08:58The same applies to hay and straw

00:09:00Any other household items?

00:09:03Bedding, blankets and mattresses

00:09:05Blankets, you said?

00:09:06Yes

00:09:06Was there any trace of blankets in that room?

00:09:09No

00:09:09Any blankets there would have been totally consumed by the fire

00:09:12It was a large square room, wasn't it?

00:09:14About 20 foot square, would you say?

00:09:15Yes, about that

00:09:16Do you have any idea what it was used for?

00:09:18Well, not at the time

00:09:19But I subsequently learned it was used for storing furniture

00:09:21Which was not on display in the front part of the shop

00:09:23Yes, for storing furniture

00:09:24And also for packing items ready for transportation

00:09:27Now, do you happen to know how valuable antiques are packed ready for transport?

00:09:32No, I don't

00:09:32Well, they are invariably wrapped in old blankets

00:09:36As being the best method of avoiding scratching

00:09:39So, this being the case

00:09:41There might have been a number of blankets in that room

00:09:42So, would you say that the fire could have been smoking amongst them

00:09:45My lord, this witness is being asked a question

00:09:47Based on a supposition put forward solely by my learned friend

00:09:50Yes, that is so, Mr Parsons

00:09:52But I have no doubt that Mr Lotteby intends to produce later evidence that there were blankets in the room

00:09:57I do indeed, my lord

00:09:58Members of the jury will bear in mind that so far there has been no evidence produced that there were any blankets there

00:10:04Thank you, my lord

00:10:06Now, Mr Pettit, assuming for one moment that there was a pile of blankets in the back room

00:10:11Would you say that the fire could have been smouldering amongst them for some considerable time

00:10:15Before it actually ignited?

00:10:18Only if the blankets were in a different part of the room to the paraffin

00:10:21Yes, precisely

00:10:22Now, that was the point I was coming to

00:10:23And if they were, and if the fire did start among the blankets

00:10:26Then its origin would have had nothing whatever to do with the paraffin

00:10:29Would it?

00:10:30Not in those circumstances

00:10:31Could have been smouldering for as much as several hours

00:10:34And only when it finally reached contact with the part of the room where the paraffin was

00:10:38Would it have actually burst into flames

00:10:40Am I right?

00:10:42What is it you're asking me?

00:10:43I'm asking you if, as I shall later prove, there was a pile of blankets in a different part of the room to the paraffin

00:10:50Then the fire could have started several hours before the fire brigade was called

00:10:54In fact, it could have started before shop closing time, before six o'clock

00:10:58Well, it's possible

00:10:59But I would...

00:11:01Thank you, that's all

00:11:02No further questions, my lord

00:11:03Did you wish to add something to your answer, Mr Pettit?

00:11:06I know that it is possible, my lord, but I would doubt it

00:11:09Why would you doubt it?

00:11:10Because if the fire had been smouldering that long, there would have been smoke

00:11:13Quite a lot of smoke, which might have caught the attention of some passerby

00:11:16Yes, I see

00:11:18Do you have any re-examination, Mr Parsons?

00:11:20Thank you, officer

00:11:21You may care

00:11:21I call Terry Green

00:11:28Terry Green, please

00:11:43And what is your occupation, Miss Green?

00:11:49I'm a claims investigator for an insurance company

00:11:52Employed by?

00:11:53Sovereign Life and General Assurance Company, Headingley Leeds

00:11:56Now, did the defendant, Peter John Elgar, have a policy with that firm?

00:12:00He had two policies

00:12:01A comprehensive motor vehicle policy for his van

00:12:04And a fire and accidental policy for his shop premises

00:12:07And did he make a claim on the latter policy following a fire at the premises of Elgar and Stride on September 22nd last?

00:12:13Yes, he did

00:12:14And were you appointed by your firm to investigate that claim?

00:12:17I was

00:12:18And during the course of your investigation, Miss Green, did you meet the defendant?

00:12:22Yes, I travelled from Leeds to Folchester on September the 28th

00:12:26Which was the day after our claims department had received the completed form from Mr Elgar

00:12:30I made some enquiries in Folchester and then arranged to meet Mr Elgar

00:12:35Yes, where did the meeting take place? At the shop?

00:12:37No, at his home, a cottage at Hayley Hill, just outside Folchester

00:12:41Mr Elgar invited me to tea on Sunday the 30th of September

00:12:45He seemed very tense and nervous, but this was perhaps understandable

00:12:50I asked him how he believed the fire had started

00:12:54Did he give you an answer?

00:12:56He said he thought it was most likely some electrical fault

00:12:58And that he'd more than once asked the landlords to have the place rewired

00:13:02But they had not done so

00:13:03I pointed out to him that in the report by the fire prevention officer

00:13:07No electrical fault had been found

00:13:09He said by the time the report was made, the place was so gutted out

00:13:13it would be impossible to tell

00:13:14I then asked him to let me have further details about each item

00:13:18listed on the claim form as having been lost in the fire

00:13:21Did he comply?

00:13:22Yes, as far as he could

00:13:24What sort of details were you asking for?

00:13:27Signed receipts showing how and when he'd acquired each antique

00:13:30and how much he'd paid for them

00:13:31And was he able to give you these?

00:13:33Very few

00:13:34He said his papers had all been destroyed in the fire

00:13:37The only receipts he was able to give me were those he had on him

00:13:40in his wallet at the time of the fire

00:13:42As it happened, those included some of the most valuable antiques

00:13:46ones which amounted to more than half the total claim

00:13:49Yes, well did you ask him why those particular receipts happened to be in his wallet

00:13:53at the time of the fire?

00:13:54There was no need to

00:13:55The five items had been purchased only two days before the fire

00:13:59So only two days before the fire, the defendant acquired five valuable antiques

00:14:04which amounted to more than half the total insurance claim

00:14:08Yes

00:14:09Do you now produce the defendant's insurance claim form?

00:14:13Exhibit one, my lord

00:14:14Yes

00:14:15As you can see, my lord, on the list there are five items with ticks against them

00:14:25These represent the items the defendant bought two days before the fire

00:14:29and they add up to a total of £5,100

00:14:32out of a total claim of £9,600

00:14:36Now, Miss Green, did the defendant say anything else you considered important?

00:14:43I didn't notice at the time

00:14:44but later in my hotel room when I was listening to a playback of the tape

00:14:48I noticed that...

00:14:49One moment, please

00:14:50The playback of what?

00:14:52Of the tape recording, my lord, I made of the conversation

00:14:55You made a tape recording of your conversation with the defendant?

00:15:00Yes

00:15:01And I noticed that when I said...

00:15:03Was the defendant aware that this conversation was being recorded?

00:15:06No, my lord

00:15:07You mean you had a tape recorder concealed about your person?

00:15:11In my handbag

00:15:12With a microphone here

00:15:13Hidden in a brooch

00:15:14Yes, I see

00:15:17Mr Parsons, are you intending to put in this tape recording as evidence?

00:15:21No, my lord

00:15:22I would point out, however, my learned friend does have a transcript

00:15:26The only reason the tape has been mentioned at all

00:15:29is because it brought the attention of the witness

00:15:31to something that she hadn't considered significant at that time

00:15:34Yes

00:15:34Yes, I see

00:15:36Please continue, Mr

00:15:37My lord, with respect

00:15:39If my learned friend is not going to produce that recording...

00:15:41No, Mr Lutterby, I don't think the tape recording need be produced

00:15:45if the witness has an independent recollection of what the defendant said

00:15:49Yes, Miss Green, carry on

00:15:51I noticed that when I commented on the high price of these five particular antiques

00:15:56two of them being valued at well over a thousand pounds each

00:15:59Mr Elgar's reply was

00:16:02they are actually worth more than that

00:16:04Yes, the significance being the use of the present tense

00:16:07I mean, it was more than a week since they were supposed to have been destroyed in a fire

00:16:11and he said they are worth more than that

00:16:14Yes

00:16:14Now, what did you do when you noticed this?

00:16:17I drove down to Salisbury to the antique shop

00:16:20where the five items had been purchased

00:16:21With what object in mind?

00:16:23To get a detailed description of those antiques from a neutral party

00:16:26and, if possible, to get photographs of them

00:16:28Yes

00:16:29Did you succeed?

00:16:29Oh, dear, dear me, where are we now?

00:16:32I have a fear that we're going to be faced with hearsay evidence

00:16:35Yes, you are, my lord

00:16:36but only with evidence which the defence does not dispute

00:16:38Oh, very well, then, let's get on

00:16:40Thank you, my lord

00:16:42Now, did you succeed in getting the description you wanted?

00:16:46Yes

00:16:47The Salisbury dealer had photos of two of them in a catalogue

00:16:50A catalogue of an auction sale in April 1973

00:16:53when he had purchased them himself

00:16:55Yes

00:16:55Do you recall what those two antiques were?

00:16:57Yes

00:16:58A Pembroke table and a Queen Anne bureau

00:17:01I had copies of the photos made, enlargements

00:17:04and sent them to some people I know who are, well, who have connections in the antique business

00:17:09Yes, now, why did you do that?

00:17:11Well, just on the off chance that an antique identical to one of those might put in an appearance somewhere

00:17:16And did it?

00:17:17They both did

00:17:18About two months later, in the first week of December

00:17:21I received a phone call saying that a Pembroke table and a Queen Anne bureau

00:17:26exactly like those in the photos

00:17:28had been sold to a visiting American agent by a dealer in Chelsea, London

00:17:32I went to London and visited the dealer

00:17:35pretending that I was a customer and that one of the things I was interested in was a Queen Anne bureau

00:17:40He said

00:17:41Sorry, what was the dealer's name?

00:17:43Oh, I'm sorry, Richard Hartley

00:17:45Yes, thank you

00:17:46Mr Hartley said, how unfortunate, he'd sold one only recently

00:17:51I asked him where he had acquired it, as they're very hard to find

00:17:54He said he had acquired it privately and did not wish to give the name

00:17:58However, as a result of having Mr Elgar followed, it turned out to be...

00:18:02What exactly did that mean, having Mr Elgar followed?

00:18:06I had hired a firm of private detectives in Fultester to keep watch on his movements

00:18:10At whose expense?

00:18:11The firms, my lord, Sovereign Life and General Assurances

00:18:14I see, carry on

00:18:16On the 10th of December last, Mr Elgar travelled by train to London

00:18:21where he had a meeting with Mr Hartley in a restaurant

00:18:24during which a photo was taken of them

00:18:26Yes, my lord, I would draw your attention to a photograph of the defendant

00:18:30in a London restaurant with Mr Richard Hartley

00:18:32which is exhibited in the deposition of the private detective

00:18:36Yes

00:18:36Now, what was your next move, Miss Green?

00:18:40I returned to Fultester and went to see Mr Elgar

00:18:43this time without an invitation

00:18:45This was on the 14th of December

00:18:48I told him I had reason to believe

00:18:50that some of the most valuable antiques listed on his claim form

00:18:54had not been destroyed in the fire

00:18:56and had recently been sold in London

00:18:58He denied it

00:19:00I said I believed they'd been sold by a Mr Hartley

00:19:03He denied any knowledge of Hartley

00:19:05I said I believed he'd recently travelled to London to see Mr Hartley

00:19:10He denied it

00:19:11I then showed him the photo

00:19:13And what did he say?

00:19:15Oh, for a long time he didn't say anything

00:19:17He just stared into space

00:19:19like in a trance

00:19:21I then told him I was sending in my report on his claim

00:19:25and that it would contain evidence that he had made false statements

00:19:28with intent to defraud the company of several thousand pounds

00:19:32and that I had reason to believe he had set fire to the shop himself

00:19:36Yes, and what was his reaction to that?

00:19:38Well, nothing for a while

00:19:40He just sat there, nodding his head slightly

00:19:43And then when I turned to go

00:19:45he jumped up and came over and asked me

00:19:47He said, please, not to send in my report

00:19:50He would waive all his claim

00:19:52He wouldn't even claim on the stuff that had really been damaged in the fire

00:19:55Well, I told him to forget it

00:19:57The whole claim was null and void any road

00:19:59and it was a matter for the police

00:20:01He said it was the first time he'd ever done anything like this

00:20:04He said that his mother was very old and ill

00:20:07and it would be the death of her

00:20:09And what did you say to that?

00:20:10Me?

00:20:11I just laughed in his face and said, don't bother to see me out

00:20:14Yes, my lord, perhaps I should remind the jury at this stage

00:20:17that the defendant, Peter John Elgar

00:20:19has pleaded guilty to a charge

00:20:22of attempting to obtain by deception

00:20:24in respect of a fraudulent insurance claim

00:20:26Yes

00:20:27Thank you, Miss Green, no further questions

00:20:28Miss Green

00:20:31How long have you been an insurance company investigator?

00:20:35How long?

00:20:36Oh, about a year and a half

00:20:38You enjoy the work?

00:20:39Yes, it's a very good job

00:20:40It's a rather odd profession, isn't it?

00:20:43For an attractive young woman like yourself?

00:20:45What you mean is that it's the sort of job

00:20:47everyone takes for granted has to be done by a man

00:20:49I think that's what's odd

00:20:51Yes

00:20:52Yes, in fact, I suppose your sex is an advantage

00:20:55in this sort of work

00:20:56Sometimes, yes

00:20:57People might speak more freely to you than to a man

00:21:00Possibly

00:21:01And they might be less likely to suspect what you're up to

00:21:04What I'm up to?

00:21:06Yes, well, I mean things like hiring a private detective

00:21:09to follow someone and take photos of them without their knowledge

00:21:11Carrying a tape recorder concealed in your handbag

00:21:15in order to bug someone's conversation

00:21:17All the tricks of your trade

00:21:18Yes

00:21:19What about it?

00:21:20And, of course, in addition to that, as a woman

00:21:23you have the advantage of feminine intuition, don't you?

00:21:26Do you believe in that?

00:21:27In feminine intuition?

00:21:29Yes, you find it helps you in your work

00:21:31My Lord, I really can't see it

00:21:32Yes, Mr Parsons

00:21:33Mr Lutterby, have you any idea where these questions are meeting us?

00:21:36I have, my Lord

00:21:37Oh, would you like to share your idea with the rest of the court?

00:21:40I shall endeavour to do so, my Lord

00:21:42Miss Green, you added at the end of your report the following sentence

00:21:46Yes, and I have reason to believe he had set fire to the shop himself

00:21:50Yes

00:21:51Was it feminine intuition made you say that?

00:21:54No

00:21:54No, not just intuition, of course not

00:21:57Oh, had you some tangible reason other than those you've already given us?

00:22:01Well, for one thing, the coincidence

00:22:03the fantastic coincidence that only two days before the fire

00:22:06he purchased these very valuable antiques

00:22:09which he included in his claim

00:22:11although they were not in the shop at the time of the fire

00:22:13why, weren't they?

00:22:15And here's another thing

00:22:16that shop was locked from the outside

00:22:19he was the only person who had the keys

00:22:22so who could have got in and started the fire?

00:22:24Only him

00:22:25Unless it was started by some accidental means

00:22:28Oh, there is one more thing I wanted to ask you

00:22:33at your meeting with the defendant

00:22:35your second and last meeting at his home

00:22:37was there anyone else present?

00:22:40Yes

00:22:41Yes, you didn't mention that before

00:22:43I wasn't asked

00:22:45Well, I'm asking you now

00:22:48was there anyone else present?

00:22:50His mother

00:22:50Yes

00:22:51Now, when you told the defendant

00:22:52that you were making a report out to your company

00:22:54that he had made a fraudulent claim

00:22:56and that you had reason to believe he had set fire to the shop himself

00:22:58what did his mother say?

00:23:00Did she say anything?

00:23:02Oh, I don't recall

00:23:03She may have done

00:23:04Well, I'm asking you to recall

00:23:05Did she say anything?

00:23:06She said something

00:23:08I didn't take notice

00:23:09I wasn't there to see her

00:23:10Miss Green, didn't the defendant's mother say

00:23:12that her son couldn't possibly have started the fire

00:23:14because he was home with her all evening

00:23:15and that the first he knew of it

00:23:17was when they received a phone call at 9.20?

00:23:20Yes, well

00:23:21she would say that, wouldn't she?

00:23:22Never mind whether she would, Miss Green

00:23:24did she?

00:23:26She said something to that effect, yes

00:23:28Yes

00:23:29Thank you, Miss Green

00:23:32Do you wish to...

00:23:34Thank you, Miss Green

00:23:35You may go

00:23:36I call Gerald Stroud

00:23:41Gerald Stroud, please

00:23:44The case of the Queen against Elgar

00:24:08will be resumed tomorrow

00:24:09in the Crown Court

00:24:10In the Forchester Crown Court

00:24:33Peter Elgar has pleaded guilty to a charge

00:24:36of attempting to obtain money by deception

00:24:38and confessed to making false statements

00:24:40in an insurance claim

00:24:41He now faces further charges

00:24:44of having set fire to his shop premises

00:24:45thereby damaging the property of his landlords

00:24:48and endangering the lives of the tenants above

00:24:51The prosecution has just called its third witness

00:24:54whose name, when it was called

00:24:56seemed to take the defendant by surprise

00:24:58Your name is Gerald Arthur Stroud

00:25:01Yes

00:25:02And you live at 49 Ainsley Terrace, Cambridge

00:25:05Yes

00:25:06What is your occupation?

00:25:07I'm an antique dealer

00:25:08Were you formerly in partnership with the accused

00:25:11Peter John Elgar

00:25:12in the premises known as Elgar and Stroud?

00:25:15I was

00:25:16And when did you cease to be a partner in that business?

00:25:19Nearly a year ago

00:25:20Yes

00:25:21But the shop still goes under that name

00:25:23The shop doesn't exist anymore

00:25:24Yes

00:25:25At the time of the fire

00:25:27the shop was still called Elgar and Stroud

00:25:29even though you had left several months previously

00:25:31Yes

00:25:31Why was that?

00:25:32Well, since I left of my own volition

00:25:34to join another firm

00:25:35not in Fulchester

00:25:36there seemed no reason to change the name

00:25:38It carried some value in goodwill

00:25:41and we both agreed it should be kept

00:25:42Yes

00:25:43Now, would you tell the court

00:25:45as simply as possible, please

00:25:47why the partnership broke up?

00:25:50Well, for a number of reasons

00:25:51but I suppose the two main ones were

00:25:52first

00:25:53with the cost of living rising so much in recent years

00:25:56and our annual turnover remaining about the same

00:25:58there just wasn't enough in it

00:26:00for both of us

00:26:01and also the second thing was

00:26:03we'd had our differences in recent years

00:26:06fundamental differences over business methods

00:26:09and our whole approach to trading in antiques

00:26:11Yes

00:26:12So just under a year ago

00:26:13you resigned your partnership

00:26:14and went to work and live in Cambridge

00:26:16Yes

00:26:16Now, after you left

00:26:18did you remain in contact with the defendant?

00:26:20Oh, yes

00:26:21We kept in touch

00:26:21We spoke on the phone from time to time

00:26:24I come to Fulchester occasionally

00:26:26I have friends still here

00:26:28Yes

00:26:28Now, Mr. Starr

00:26:29will you please tell the court

00:26:30when you last saw the defendant?

00:26:32You mean before the fire?

00:26:34I'm sorry

00:26:34I didn't put that question very well

00:26:36When did you last see

00:26:38the defendant at his shop?

00:26:40On the 19th of September

00:26:41Yes

00:26:42That would be three days before the fire

00:26:43Yes

00:26:44Now, can you please describe that meeting for us?

00:26:46Well, I went around there in the afternoon

00:26:48We had a cup of tea together

00:26:50Was he expecting you?

00:26:51No, I just dropped him

00:26:52I found him in a very depressed frame of mind

00:26:55I asked him about his mother

00:26:57how she was

00:26:57I knew she'd not been well for some time

00:26:59He said she was about the same

00:27:00neither better nor worse

00:27:02I asked him how business was

00:27:04He said it had been poor

00:27:05Even the summer months had been disappointing

00:27:07I asked him if there was anything else

00:27:09that was bothering him

00:27:10and he said yes

00:27:11He said, uh

00:27:13He'd recently had a letter from the landlords

00:27:15Chester and Hussie

00:27:16The lease on the shop premises

00:27:18was due to expire

00:27:19at the end of the year

00:27:20they were offering to renew the lease

00:27:22but at a considerably higher rent

00:27:24They said that the rent as fixed in 1966

00:27:27was now unrealistic

00:27:28And what was his reaction to that letter?

00:27:31Well, he was very upset about it

00:27:32Angry, too

00:27:33He said he was going to fight them on it

00:27:34He said he wasn't going to pay the higher rent

00:27:36The present rent was high enough

00:27:37He said he'd already said this on the phone to them

00:27:41since receiving the letter

00:27:42but they were adamant

00:27:43If he wanted to renew the lease

00:27:45he would have to pay the higher rent

00:27:46And what did he say to that?

00:27:49Well, he said, uh

00:27:50Well, then, I'm afraid he said

00:27:52The shop can go up in flames for all I care

00:27:55So rather than pay the higher rent demanded by the landlords

00:28:00he said

00:28:00The shop can go up in flames for all I care

00:28:03Yes

00:28:04No

00:28:04No, it wasn't

00:28:05That wasn't what I said

00:28:07Silence, in court

00:28:08You know that, Gerald

00:28:08I didn't say that

00:28:09Gerald, you know that

00:28:10Silence, Mr. Lotterby

00:28:11I didn't say that

00:28:12I remember a distinctive

00:28:13Silence

00:28:13Mr. Lotterby, if your client cannot remain silent

00:28:15he is in some danger of being removed from the court

00:28:18Mr. Elgar

00:28:19Your turn to speak will come

00:28:22but you must not interrupt

00:28:23Mr. Parson

00:28:25There are other questions, my lord

00:28:27Thank you, Mr. Stride

00:28:28When the defendant said

00:28:31the shop should go up in flames for all I care

00:28:34what did you take him to mean?

00:28:35Well, uh

00:28:36at the time I didn't attach any importance to it

00:28:38You didn't take it seriously?

00:28:40Of course not

00:28:40But now you do take it seriously?

00:28:42Well, yes

00:28:42Why?

00:28:44Well, I could only think

00:28:45there was nothing else for it

00:28:46but to think that he'd done it

00:28:48Find it hot in here, Mr. Stride?

00:28:54It's quite warm, yes

00:28:55Perhaps it's because you're under such tension

00:28:57I'm not under any tension

00:28:59No?

00:29:01I would have thought it was

00:29:02rather a difficult thing for you to do

00:29:04to come here

00:29:04and give evidence

00:29:05on this very serious charge

00:29:06against your former partner and friend

00:29:08Oh, yes, of course

00:29:09there's that sort of tension, yes

00:29:11Yes

00:29:11How long were you in the defendant's partners?

00:29:13Fourteen years

00:29:14Fourteen years

00:29:15A very long time

00:29:16and you were also good friends?

00:29:17Yes

00:29:18Close friends?

00:29:19Yes

00:29:19Am I right in saying

00:29:20for twelve of these fourteen years

00:29:22you lived together?

00:29:23We shared a large flat, yes

00:29:24I wasn't asking about the size

00:29:25of your establishment

00:29:26I was asking if you lived together

00:29:27That's correct

00:29:28Mm-hmm

00:29:29And it wasn't until

00:29:30the defendant's mother

00:29:30became seriously ill

00:29:32two years ago

00:29:33that he moved out

00:29:34and went to live with her

00:29:35Yes

00:29:35About a year after this

00:29:37your partnership with the defendant

00:29:38broke up

00:29:39But that had nothing to do

00:29:40with his moving out

00:29:41to live with his mother

00:29:41Oh, I didn't say that it had

00:29:43No, you've told the court

00:29:45that the partnership broke up

00:29:46because the shop wasn't doing

00:29:47well enough to support you both

00:29:49and because the two of you

00:29:50had disagreement

00:29:51about business methods

00:29:52Yes

00:29:52Was an amicable separation, was it?

00:29:54Yes

00:29:54No hard feelings on either side?

00:29:57No

00:29:57Must be rare for a long

00:29:58close relationship like yours

00:30:00to come to an end

00:30:01with, uh,

00:30:01in such a friendly fashion

00:30:03That I wouldn't know

00:30:04Mr. Srid, were you subpoenaed?

00:30:06I'm sorry?

00:30:06Were you given a summons

00:30:07to appear in this court?

00:30:09No

00:30:09Well, then, do you find yourself

00:30:11here in court

00:30:12as a material witness

00:30:13for the prosecution

00:30:14against your former partner

00:30:15and friend?

00:30:16Well, the police came to see me

00:30:17do you see

00:30:17Where and when was this?

00:30:20Well, they came down to Cambridge

00:30:21the first or second week

00:30:23in December

00:30:23The shop was still partly

00:30:25in my name, I suppose

00:30:26that's why they looked me up

00:30:27And what did the police

00:30:28want to see you about?

00:30:30Well, they said

00:30:30they were investigating

00:30:31the cause of the fire

00:30:32at Elgar and Stroud

00:30:33in Fulchester

00:30:33There were allegations

00:30:35that Pete

00:30:36that Mr. Elgar

00:30:37had made false statements

00:30:39in his insurance claim

00:30:39They were now

00:30:41trying to decide

00:30:42if there was a case

00:30:42against him

00:30:43for having started the fire

00:30:44What specifically

00:30:45did they ask you?

00:30:47If I had any reason

00:30:48to believe he'd done so

00:30:48What did you say?

00:30:50I said no

00:30:50I had nothing to do

00:30:51with the place anymore

00:30:53I didn't know anything

00:30:54that might help them

00:30:55But later

00:30:55about a week later

00:30:57the inspector

00:30:58had left his card

00:30:59you see

00:30:59and asked if I would

00:31:00get in touch

00:31:00if I thought of anything

00:31:01Well, after long

00:31:03and very careful thought

00:31:05I rang him

00:31:06and made an appointment

00:31:07to see him

00:31:08I told him about

00:31:10going to see Peter

00:31:11at the shop

00:31:12a few days before

00:31:13the fire

00:31:13and how angry

00:31:15he'd been

00:31:15about the letter

00:31:16from the landlord

00:31:17saying they wanted

00:31:17to raise the rent

00:31:18and what he'd said

00:31:20about the shop

00:31:21could go up in flames

00:31:21for all he cared

00:31:22Well, you have to tell

00:31:23the truth in something

00:31:24like this

00:31:24You can't hold back

00:31:25To hold back

00:31:26is to lie

00:31:27and it would be

00:31:27very wrong

00:31:28to lie about

00:31:29something as serious

00:31:29as this

00:31:30And can you be

00:31:30absolutely certain

00:31:31that those were

00:31:32the exact words

00:31:33the defendant used?

00:31:33Absolutely certain

00:31:35One last question

00:31:37In all the years

00:31:38you've known him

00:31:39in what must have been

00:31:40a close

00:31:40and intimate relationship

00:31:42have you ever known

00:31:43the defender

00:31:44to commit

00:31:44a destructive

00:31:45act of violence?

00:31:47Not offhand, no

00:31:48Not offhand?

00:31:50What an extraordinary

00:31:51thing to say

00:31:52If you'd known

00:31:53he'd committed

00:31:54such an act

00:31:55you'd remember it

00:31:55instantly

00:31:56You wouldn't need

00:31:56to reflect on it

00:31:57I can't remember

00:31:59him committing

00:31:59such an act

00:32:00Thank you

00:32:01You didn't seem

00:32:03very eager to say so

00:32:04Do you...

00:32:05No examination, my lord

00:32:06Thank you

00:32:07You may go, Mr. Stroud

00:32:09That concludes the case

00:32:12for the prosecution, my lord

00:32:14Very good

00:32:14I call the defendant

00:32:16Peter John Elgar

00:32:18Mr. Elgar

00:32:21You live at Briar Cottage

00:32:38Hayley Hill, Fulchester

00:32:39Yes

00:32:40You'll have to speak

00:32:41a little louder than that

00:32:42Are you not feeling well

00:32:43Mr. Elgar?

00:32:44I feel all right

00:32:45my lord

00:32:46A few moments ago

00:32:48Mr. Elgar

00:32:49you, before you came

00:32:50to the witness box

00:32:51you seemed distraught

00:32:52In fact, you appeared

00:32:53to be weeping

00:32:54Could you tell the court

00:32:55why?

00:32:57It would be very...

00:32:58That would be

00:33:00very difficult

00:33:00I must ask you

00:33:02to try

00:33:02What was it

00:33:04that so upset you?

00:33:06It was just...

00:33:08I suppose it was

00:33:09the surprise

00:33:10the shock

00:33:11of realising

00:33:13that I was being

00:33:13betrayed

00:33:16I just couldn't

00:33:18believe it

00:33:19I couldn't believe

00:33:20that such a vicious lie

00:33:21could be told

00:33:22by someone

00:33:22who for so many years

00:33:23had been my partner

00:33:24and my dear friend

00:33:27The lie

00:33:29you're referring to

00:33:29being...

00:33:30That I said

00:33:31the shop could go up

00:33:32in flames

00:33:33for all I cared

00:33:34Yes, now

00:33:34do you remember

00:33:35the conversation

00:33:35in which you were

00:33:36supposed to have

00:33:36made that remark?

00:33:38Yes

00:33:38It was after I'd

00:33:39shown him the letter

00:33:40from the landlords

00:33:40offering to renew

00:33:42the lease

00:33:42at a very much

00:33:43higher rent

00:33:43I said I wasn't

00:33:45going to sign

00:33:45the new lease

00:33:46and the shop

00:33:47could go to blazes

00:33:48for all I care

00:33:49You said

00:33:51the shop

00:33:51can go to blazes

00:33:52for all I care

00:33:54Yes

00:33:54Meaning what precisely?

00:33:56Meaning rather than

00:33:57pay the exorbitant rent

00:33:58they were asking

00:33:59I'd give up

00:34:00having the shop

00:34:00I'd quit the premises

00:34:02You mean find

00:34:02another shop?

00:34:03No

00:34:03No, I was thinking

00:34:04of giving up

00:34:05having a shop altogether

00:34:06I was considering

00:34:08putting up a sign

00:34:09at my mother's cottage

00:34:10at Hayley Hill

00:34:11and running the business

00:34:12from there

00:34:12Isn't that rather far

00:34:14from the centre of town?

00:34:15Yes

00:34:16but there would be

00:34:17a fair amount

00:34:18of passing motor trade

00:34:19The shop

00:34:21can go to blazes

00:34:22for all I care

00:34:23Now you were certain

00:34:24that this was the phrase

00:34:25you used

00:34:26and that it could not

00:34:27have been misunderstood

00:34:27by Mr Stroud

00:34:28to mean that you were

00:34:29contemplating sitting fire

00:34:30to your shop

00:34:31I'm quite certain

00:34:32that was the phrase

00:34:33I used

00:34:34and I'm quite certain

00:34:36that Mr Stroud

00:34:37did not misunderstand me

00:34:38Now, Mr Elger

00:34:41would you please

00:34:42tell the court

00:34:43what your movements

00:34:43were on the evening

00:34:44of Saturday

00:34:45the 22nd of September

00:34:47last?

00:34:48My movements?

00:34:49Yes

00:34:50I shut up shop

00:34:52soon after 6

00:34:52That was your

00:34:54normal closing time?

00:34:55Yes, any time

00:34:56between 5.30 and 6

00:34:57depending on whether

00:34:58there was a customer

00:34:59Was there that evening?

00:35:00Yes, there were two

00:35:01a young couple

00:35:02who'd been

00:35:03browsing around

00:35:04Did they buy anything?

00:35:06No, but they were

00:35:06interested in one

00:35:07or two pieces

00:35:07and they said

00:35:08they might come back

00:35:09on Monday

00:35:10after thinking it

00:35:10over the weekend

00:35:11But of course

00:35:12by Monday

00:35:12the shop was

00:35:13permanently closed

00:35:14Yes, it was

00:35:15all boarded up

00:35:16So that young couple

00:35:17they were the last

00:35:18customers at your shop

00:35:19Did you notice

00:35:20anything about them?

00:35:22Well, they seemed

00:35:23to know quite a bit

00:35:24about antiques

00:35:24Did they whilst browsing

00:35:26go into the back room

00:35:27to look at the furniture

00:35:28kept there?

00:35:29Yes

00:35:29Did you accompany them

00:35:30there?

00:35:31Yes

00:35:31Did you happen to notice

00:35:33if either of them

00:35:33were smoking?

00:35:35Smoking?

00:35:35I can't

00:35:36If they were

00:35:38I'm afraid

00:35:38I didn't notice

00:35:40Presumably

00:35:41there were

00:35:42ashtrays

00:35:42about the place

00:35:43Oh yes

00:35:43several ashtrays

00:35:44Do you smoke yourself?

00:35:45No

00:35:45So these ashtrays

00:35:46they would have been

00:35:47for the customer?

00:35:48Yes

00:35:48My lord

00:35:49I do believe

00:35:49my learned friend

00:35:50is overextending

00:35:51both himself

00:35:52and the indulgence

00:35:53of the court

00:35:53Oh, in what way

00:35:54Mr. Parsons?

00:35:55One moment

00:35:55we're hearing about

00:35:56two apparently

00:35:57nameless people

00:35:58in the shop

00:35:58that evening

00:35:59before closing time

00:36:00then we're asked

00:36:01to consider

00:36:02where either

00:36:02of the two people

00:36:03smoked or not

00:36:04for there

00:36:05we go on

00:36:05to the presence

00:36:06of ashtrays

00:36:07for customers

00:36:08My lord

00:36:08my learned friend

00:36:09is attempting

00:36:10to put into the minds

00:36:11of the jury

00:36:11the notion

00:36:12that this fire

00:36:13was started

00:36:14by the cigarette

00:36:15from a careless customer

00:36:16in other words

00:36:17he's putting up

00:36:17a smokescreen

00:36:18Yes, well I'm sure

00:36:19the jury won't be blinded

00:36:20by the smokescreen

00:36:21Mr. Parsons

00:36:22and I'm sure also

00:36:23that they will be aware

00:36:24that no evidence

00:36:24has yet been offered

00:36:25that anyone

00:36:26was smoking in the shop

00:36:28on the night of the fire

00:36:29Mr. Lotterby

00:36:29the names of this

00:36:30young couple

00:36:31who the defendant says

00:36:33were in the shop

00:36:34just before closing time

00:36:35are not known

00:36:36No, my lord

00:36:37Any attempt made

00:36:38to trace them?

00:36:39Oh yes indeed, my lord

00:36:40on two occasions

00:36:41advertisements were placed

00:36:42in the personal column

00:36:43of the Fultures of the News

00:36:44but with no results

00:36:45I see, yes

00:36:46well please continue

00:36:46So, when the young couple left

00:36:49you locked up the shop

00:36:50just after six

00:36:51and then?

00:36:52I went home

00:36:53How did you travel?

00:36:55In the van

00:36:55How long was the journey?

00:36:57About twenty minutes

00:36:58Twenty minutes

00:36:59Your mother, was she at home?

00:37:01Yes

00:37:01I cooked the supper for us

00:37:03You cooked the supper?

00:37:04Yes, I usually do the cooking

00:37:05and my mother does the washing up

00:37:07I see

00:37:08Please go on

00:37:09Then we watch television

00:37:11You watch television

00:37:12for the rest of the evening?

00:37:13Yes

00:37:14Until when?

00:37:15Until we had a phone call

00:37:16Well, two phone calls

00:37:17one after the other

00:37:18saying the shop was on fire

00:37:20Now, what time was that?

00:37:21Twenty past nine

00:37:22Mm-hmm

00:37:23Which time you'd been home

00:37:25how long?

00:37:26Oh, nearly three hours

00:37:27Yes

00:37:28And then?

00:37:29I drove to Manning Street

00:37:31to the shop

00:37:31The place was still on fire

00:37:33It was under control by then

00:37:35There were crowds of people

00:37:37and fire engines

00:37:38That part of the street

00:37:39was cordoned off

00:37:40For a long while

00:37:42I couldn't get near the shop

00:37:43I just stood there

00:37:44amongst the crowd

00:37:45watching

00:37:46And afterwards?

00:37:50Well, it was nearly midnight

00:37:51before I was allowed

00:37:52into the shop

00:37:52to inspect

00:37:53to look at

00:37:55what was left of the contents

00:37:57There was nothing

00:37:58virtually nothing

00:37:59It was all gone

00:38:00Everything that was left

00:38:02was black and charred

00:38:03still smoking some of it

00:38:05Even in the main part

00:38:07of the shop

00:38:07there wasn't anything left

00:38:08that wasn't charred

00:38:09beyond recognition

00:38:10Just the odd bit of metal

00:38:12here and there

00:38:13drawer handles

00:38:15face of a clock

00:38:17It was all

00:38:18just

00:38:19debris

00:38:21It took several days

00:38:23to clear it all out

00:38:24Now, Mr Elger

00:38:26the court has heard

00:38:28the evidence given

00:38:29by Station Officer

00:38:30Roy Pettit

00:38:31of the Fultester Fire Brigade

00:38:32concerning the presence

00:38:34in the back room

00:38:34of the shop

00:38:35of a large can

00:38:36a five-gallon drum

00:38:38believed to contain paraffin

00:38:39Now, can you tell us

00:38:40anything about that?

00:38:41Did you know it was there?

00:38:43Yes, I bought it

00:38:44When did you buy it?

00:38:46I'm not sure

00:38:47About a week before the fire

00:38:49About a week before the fire

00:38:51you bought a can of paraffin

00:38:53and you placed it

00:38:54in the back room

00:38:54of the shop

00:38:55Yes

00:38:55Why?

00:38:56Well, it was the end of September

00:38:58and the weather

00:38:59was beginning to get chilly

00:39:00and that room's always cold

00:39:02never gets any sun

00:39:03Also, it was damp

00:39:05which is very bad

00:39:06for antique furniture

00:39:06Now, in the past

00:39:08I've always had

00:39:09two electric radiators

00:39:10in the back room

00:39:11as in the front part

00:39:12of the shop

00:39:12They're very expensive

00:39:14to run

00:39:14and last winter

00:39:16in order to economise

00:39:18I intended having

00:39:19electric radiators

00:39:21only in the main part

00:39:22of the shop

00:39:22and a paraffin heater

00:39:24in the back room

00:39:25Had you yet purchased

00:39:26the paraffin heater?

00:39:27No

00:39:28but I'd looked at

00:39:29several models

00:39:29and I wasn't sure

00:39:31which one to buy

00:39:32or whether I'd need

00:39:33one or two

00:39:34in such a large room

00:39:35What was this room

00:39:36used for?

00:39:37Well, for storing furniture

00:39:39that wasn't on display

00:39:40Did you keep anything else there?

00:39:42Packing materials

00:39:43Such as?

00:39:44Blankets

00:39:45ropes

00:39:46How many blankets?

00:39:49About a dozen

00:39:49And were there always

00:39:51blankets in that room?

00:39:52Yes

00:39:53Now, Mr Elger

00:39:56you said it took

00:39:57several days

00:39:57to clear the debris

00:39:58from the premises

00:39:59Was it then

00:40:00that you got round

00:40:01to making out

00:40:01your insurance claim?

00:40:03Yes

00:40:04It was four or five days

00:40:05after the fire

00:40:06that the insurance claim

00:40:07arrived

00:40:08But I had already

00:40:10on the Sunday

00:40:11the morning

00:40:12after the fire

00:40:13scribbled down

00:40:14a list of

00:40:15well, while it was

00:40:16still fresh in my mind

00:40:17every item

00:40:18that I had in the shop

00:40:19whether a valuable antique

00:40:21or just an ordinary

00:40:23piece of furniture

00:40:23like my desk

00:40:24Now, it was a long list

00:40:27several sides

00:40:28of full scap

00:40:29and when I came

00:40:30to fill in the claim form

00:40:31there wasn't room

00:40:32so I typed the list

00:40:34separately

00:40:34to be attached

00:40:34to the form

00:40:35You were copying the list

00:40:36you had scribbled down

00:40:37the morning

00:40:38after the fire

00:40:38Yes

00:40:39and when I was

00:40:40about halfway through

00:40:41I suddenly came on

00:40:43five items

00:40:45which shouldn't

00:40:46have been there

00:40:46It was a rather

00:40:48fine Pembroke table

00:40:50a William and Mary

00:40:52marquetry chest

00:40:53a set of six

00:40:55heppelwhite chairs

00:40:56a Queen Anne bureau

00:40:58and a Sheraton sideboard

00:41:00Now, why shouldn't

00:41:02these items

00:41:03have been there?

00:41:04because they weren't

00:41:05in the shop

00:41:06at the time

00:41:06of the fire

00:41:07Where were they?

00:41:08In my van

00:41:09Why were they in the van?

00:41:11I hadn't unpacked them yet

00:41:12I'd only had these articles

00:41:14for about two days

00:41:15I'd been down to Salisbury

00:41:16and I had to clear

00:41:17a space for them

00:41:18I'd meant to do it

00:41:20on that Saturday evening

00:41:21before closing

00:41:21but that young couple

00:41:22were in the shop

00:41:23for nearly an hour

00:41:24But why, if they were

00:41:26still in the van

00:41:27had you included them

00:41:28on the original list

00:41:29you would scribble down

00:41:30the morning after the fire?

00:41:31I don't know

00:41:33It was an extraordinary error

00:41:35I suppose I'd have

00:41:37scribbled down quickly

00:41:38every item I had

00:41:39in my possession

00:41:40and I suppose

00:41:41I was still

00:41:42well

00:41:43in a sort of

00:41:45state of shock

00:41:46Understandably

00:41:47So, a few days later

00:41:48when you were

00:41:49typing out

00:41:49the insurance claim

00:41:51you came across

00:41:51these items

00:41:52on the original list

00:41:53Yes

00:41:54For a long time

00:41:56I just stared at them

00:41:58I found myself

00:42:00strangely excited

00:42:01because I realised

00:42:03that those items

00:42:04which should have been

00:42:06in the shop

00:42:06at the time of the fire

00:42:07which might so easily

00:42:08have been in the shop

00:42:09were still in my van

00:42:11and I realised

00:42:14that nobody else

00:42:16in the world

00:42:16knew that they were there

00:42:18So, what did you do?

00:42:23What I did

00:42:24was the most foolish

00:42:25the most wrong thing

00:42:27I've ever done

00:42:27in my life

00:42:28I went on

00:42:30typing the list

00:42:31including those items

00:42:32and I quickly

00:42:33filled in the claim form

00:42:34I signed it

00:42:34I dashed out

00:42:35and I caught

00:42:35the midday post

00:42:36and all the time

00:42:38I was saying to myself

00:42:38I've been paying

00:42:39insurance premiums

00:42:40for years

00:42:41I've never made a claim

00:42:42the insurance company

00:42:43has made a lot

00:42:43of money out of me

00:42:44and a few extra thousand

00:42:45on this claim

00:42:46won't hurt them

00:42:47very much

00:42:47I know what I did

00:42:51was very, very wrong

00:42:53and I have bitterly

00:42:56regretted it

00:42:57Mr Elgar

00:42:58you have already

00:42:59pleaded guilty

00:42:59to that offence

00:43:00are you also guilty

00:43:02of having set fire

00:43:03to your shop?

00:43:05No

00:43:05No, I am not

00:43:08Thank you, Mr Elgar

00:43:09Ah, Mr Elgar

00:43:17You say that in the morning

00:43:19after the fire

00:43:20you scribbled down

00:43:21the list of all the items

00:43:22in the shop

00:43:23that were either destroyed

00:43:25or damaged

00:43:25and then several days later

00:43:27you typed up a copy

00:43:29of this list

00:43:29to send with your insurance claim

00:43:31is that right?

00:43:32Yes

00:43:32And when you sat down

00:43:34to type out the list

00:43:35for the insurance claim

00:43:35you added five valuable items

00:43:38you knew had not been destroyed

00:43:40now there was no error

00:43:41in this, was there?

00:43:42It was a cold

00:43:43calculated piece of deception

00:43:45wasn't it?

00:43:46Yes, I've admitted that

00:43:47Yes, I know

00:43:48I just wanted the jury

00:43:49to be quite clear

00:43:50on that point

00:43:50Now, can you tell us

00:43:53exactly where

00:43:54these five very valuable pieces

00:43:56were in the interim period

00:43:57between the fire

00:43:58at the shop

00:43:59and you making out

00:44:00your insurance claim?

00:44:02In my van

00:44:03But they were still in the van

00:44:04several days after the fire

00:44:06Yes

00:44:06Why was that?

00:44:08There was nowhere else

00:44:09to put them

00:44:09the shop had been gutted

00:44:10Yes, well

00:44:11What about your home

00:44:13the cottage?

00:44:13I mean, wouldn't that

00:44:14have been a more suitable place

00:44:15for five valuable antiques

00:44:16rather than the back of a van?

00:44:17There was no room

00:44:18for them at the cottage

00:44:19No room for them?

00:44:21But earlier you told the court

00:44:23you were thinking

00:44:23of putting a sign

00:44:24outside the cottage

00:44:25and selling antiques

00:44:26from there

00:44:27Yes, but that would have meant

00:44:28my mother and I

00:44:29clearing all our things

00:44:30out of the large room

00:44:31and various structural alterations

00:44:33Yes, but isn't it near the mark

00:44:35Mr. Elgar

00:44:35to say that the reason

00:44:37those items remained

00:44:38in your van

00:44:39and had remained

00:44:40in your van

00:44:40ever since your return

00:44:41from Salisbury

00:44:42is because that was

00:44:43the best place

00:44:44to conceal them

00:44:45Well, afterwards, yes

00:44:48Now, what do you mean

00:44:48by afterwards?

00:44:49After I'd filled in

00:44:50the insurance claim

00:44:51Ah, after you'd filled in

00:44:53your fraudulent insurance claim

00:44:55you kept them in the van

00:44:56because that was the best place

00:44:57to hide them

00:44:58Yes

00:44:59And that's why you kept them

00:45:01in the van all along

00:45:02isn't it?

00:45:02You never put them

00:45:03in the shop

00:45:03because you knew

00:45:05exactly what was going to happen

00:45:06No

00:45:07You knew that the shop

00:45:08was going to catch fire

00:45:09and you knew

00:45:10No, I...

00:45:11And you knew

00:45:12you were going to add

00:45:13these items to your insurance claim

00:45:15and that's why

00:45:16they never left you a van

00:45:17from the moment you bought them

00:45:18No, that's not true

00:45:19No?

00:45:20But they did leave your van

00:45:22No, I'm saying

00:45:24that's not the way it happened

00:45:25Will you please tell the court

00:45:30when those items

00:45:31finally did emerge

00:45:32from concealment

00:45:33in your van

00:45:34Was it when you drove to London

00:45:36and delivered them to a dealer

00:45:37with instructions

00:45:38for them to be sold

00:45:39privately?

00:45:40Yes

00:45:41Now, when was that?

00:45:43You mean the date?

00:45:44Yes, the date

00:45:45The 27th of September

00:45:47I think

00:45:48The 27th

00:45:49Now, according to my reckoning

00:45:51that would be

00:45:51a week after you bought them

00:45:53and five days after the fire

00:45:55Is that right?

00:45:56Yes

00:45:57Thank you

00:45:58Now, tell me, Mr Elgar

00:46:01Did your mother know

00:46:02about the presence

00:46:03of those antiques

00:46:04in the back of the van?

00:46:05No

00:46:05Well, didn't you tell her

00:46:07you'd been to Salisbury

00:46:08to buy antiques?

00:46:09Yes, of course I did

00:46:10Well, where did you say

00:46:11they were?

00:46:12I didn't say

00:46:13where they were

00:46:13Well, wasn't your mother

00:46:14interested?

00:46:15I mean, didn't you tell her

00:46:16you had just bought

00:46:17five very valuable antiques

00:46:19worth several thousand pounds?

00:46:21I didn't even tell her

00:46:21what they were

00:46:22Ah!

00:46:23You didn't even tell her

00:46:24what they were

00:46:25Well, that's very surprising

00:46:26considering their value

00:46:28Look, my mother

00:46:29has nothing whatever

00:46:30to do with this

00:46:31No, I'm quite sure

00:46:32you kept her well out of it

00:46:33Did your mother know

00:46:34you bought those items

00:46:35two days before

00:46:36your shop would have in flames?

00:46:37I don't

00:46:38Did she know

00:46:38there were still

00:46:39sitting out there

00:46:39in the van?

00:46:40I didn't tell my mother

00:46:40Did you know

00:46:40you were going to add

00:46:41them to your insurance claim?

00:46:42No

00:46:43Because if she had

00:46:44she would only too easily

00:46:46have guessed

00:46:46that you had set fire

00:46:47to the shop yourself

00:46:48No

00:46:49No?

00:46:50No?

00:46:51Yes, yes

00:46:52Yes what?

00:46:54I did

00:46:55I set fire to the shop

00:46:56Oh, my lord

00:46:57I don't ask for an adjournment

00:46:58My client has been

00:46:59under great strain

00:46:59all last week

00:47:00and his mother

00:47:02is in hospital

00:47:03and may not be able

00:47:04to appear as a witness

00:47:05Yes, yes

00:47:06I think I will adjourn now

00:47:08The case of the Queen

00:47:24The case of the Queen against Elgar is in its third and final day.

00:47:41After having pleaded guilty to a charge of attempting to obtain money by deception,

00:47:45he now faces further charges in connection with a fire at his shop premises.

00:47:50Yesterday, under cross-examination by the prosecution,

00:47:52he broke down and admitted that he had set fire to the shop.

00:47:56He was unable to continue giving evidence, and the court adjourned early.

00:48:04My lord, my client is now sufficiently recovered to resume his testimony.

00:48:08I'm glad to hear it. And the defendant's mother?

00:48:10I'm happy to say she is, after all, going to be well enough to appear as a witness.

00:48:14Then I take it that there is no question of a change of plea?

00:48:17No, my lord.

00:48:18Very well.

00:48:19Mr. Parsons, have you concluded your cross-examination?

00:48:35No, my lord.

00:48:36I would remind you, Mr. Elgar, that you are still on oath.

00:48:42And I would remind the jury that everything the defendant said in the witness box yesterday was also on oath.

00:48:49Now it is up to you to attach what importance you think right to certain utterances

00:48:55which were made possibly hysterically, impulsively, or under stress.

00:49:00Mr. Parsons?

00:49:04Thank you, my lord.

00:49:07Now, Mr. Elgar, just before we adjourned yesterday,

00:49:10you admitted that you had set fire to your premises.

00:49:15Do I understand you now wish to retract that admission?

00:49:18Yes.

00:49:18Very well.

00:49:23Well, I'd now like to ask you some questions concerning the paraffin can that was found in your shop premises.

00:49:29You may recall the testimony of Fire Officer Pettit of the Fulster Fire Brigade,

00:49:34who said he found a five-gallon drum in the back room which was empty.

00:49:38They were to clearly contain paraffin because of the smell from it.

00:49:41Now, you put that there, did you not?

00:49:43Yes, I've already said that.

00:49:45Yes, I know.

00:49:45You'll just bear with me for one moment.

00:49:46Good. Was the pan full or empty when you put it there?

00:49:51It was full.

00:49:52Now, how did you acquire it?

00:49:54Right. Bought it from the Ironmongers.

00:49:56Yes. Am I right in saying you bought it from Squire's Hardware Store at Denman Street, Fulchester?

00:50:03Yes.

00:50:04Now, can you recall when you bought it?

00:50:06Sometime in September.

00:50:07Yes, to be exact, the 18th of September last. Would that be right?

00:50:11I suppose so.

00:50:11You suppose?

00:50:12Well, that's the data I have in a copy of the receipt here from Squire's Hardware Store.

00:50:17Would you dispute this?

00:50:18No.

00:50:19No.

00:50:20So, on September the 18th, four days before the fire at your shop,

00:50:24you placed a large can of paraffin in the back room.

00:50:27Now, you've explained to the court that the reason for this was that in the winter you were going to heat that back room with a paraffin heater.

00:50:34You had not yet decided which model to buy.

00:50:38That's right.

00:50:39So, will you please tell the court why did you buy all this paraffin to fill a heater you hadn't yet bought?

00:50:46Well, I just saw it in the Ironmonger's and I bought it.

00:50:51Well, I mean, would you buy petrol if you didn't have your van?

00:50:55That's an absurd analogy.

00:50:56Well, I'm sorry you find it absurd.

00:50:59I'll tell you what I find absurd, Mr. Elgar, what I find utterly preposterous,

00:51:03and that's a series of limp, implausible explanations you've given this court.

00:51:09I'll ask you one more question about the can,

00:51:11and perhaps this time you can summon up an answer that has a ring of truth about it.

00:51:16Station officer Pettit said that when he found the can after the fire,

00:51:23the tap at the bottom was in a diagonal position.

00:51:26That is to say, it was neither fully closed nor fully open.

00:51:29Now, how do you account for that?

00:51:31Well, I can't.

00:51:32You can't?

00:51:34Did you put the tap in that position when you left the can there?

00:51:37No.

00:51:38Well, how do you think it got like that?

00:51:41The only thing I can think of is that in moving furniture around in that room,

00:51:45somehow, something knocked against it and bunched it a little.

00:51:53Somehow, something knocked against it and bunched it a little?

00:51:59Well, that answer is just about as convincing as most of your other answers.

00:52:02Let me ask you something that requires a simple yes or no.

00:52:08Would you say that if someone wanted to start a fire somewhere,

00:52:11a very good way to do it would be to leave a large can of paraffin dripping slowly

00:52:16so that everything in the vicinity became soaked in paraffin?

00:52:22Well, it'd be just as easy to pour all the paraffin straight out.

00:52:25Yes, either way, very effective.

00:52:27I imagine so.

00:52:28You imagine?

00:52:30I have no experience of starting fires.

00:52:34Well, I now come to the evidence given by your friend and former partner, Gerald Strout.

00:52:40You heard him testify that he visited you at the shop on September 19th last,

00:52:47three days before the fire, and found you upset and angry

00:52:51about a letter you had received from the landlords about the higher rent.

00:52:56Now, was Mr Strout correct in describing you as upset and angry?

00:53:00Yes.

00:53:01Am I right in saying that as a result of that letter,

00:53:04you made two phone calls to the landlords, Messrs Chester and Hussey?

00:53:09Yes.

00:53:10And in fact, in the second phone call, you became quite abusive, did you not?

00:53:15Not really abusive, no.

00:53:17No?

00:53:21Mr Strout has testified that you told him you were going to refuse to sign the new lease

00:53:26and that you said the shop can go up in flames for all I care.

00:53:31But you've denied this.

00:53:32You claim, you said, the shop can go to blazes for all I care.

00:53:38That's right.

00:53:39Go to blazes.

00:53:41Now, that's a rather old-fashioned phrase, isn't it?

00:53:44I wouldn't have thought it was still in common usage.

00:53:47I simply meant the shop could go to hell.

00:53:49Yes, or something much more inflammatory.

00:53:51But you are asking the court to believe that in a moment of anger,

00:53:55you would say, go to blazes.

00:53:57What you said was, the shop can go up in flames for all I care,

00:54:01and that is precisely what you meant.

00:54:03Because, in a fit of piquant anger with your landlords,

00:54:06you decided to set fire to the premises.

00:54:09You then went out and bought a five-gallon can of paraffin.

00:54:13You then decided to treat your insurance company

00:54:16by buying the most expensive antiques you could afford,

00:54:19conceding them in your van,

00:54:21and then adding them to the claim,

00:54:23along with everything else that had been destroyed or damaged in the fire.

00:54:26No further questions.

00:54:27And you wish to re-examine, Mr Lutterby?

00:54:29Uh, yes, briefly, my lord.

00:54:31Uh, Mr Elger, whereabouts is this, um,

00:54:33Ironmonger's, um, Squires, where you bought the paraffin?

00:54:36In Denlon Street.

00:54:38Is that far from your shop?

00:54:39No, it's just round the corner.

00:54:40Mm-hmm.

00:54:41Uh, do they, um, do they know you in there?

00:54:44I mean, uh, do they recognise you know where your shop was?

00:54:47Oh, yes.

00:54:48Well, why didn't you go further afield to get your paraffin

00:54:50to, uh, somewhere where you weren't known?

00:54:53Well, why should I?

00:54:54Exactly.

00:54:56Why should you?

00:54:57Thank you, Mr Elger.

00:54:59Uh, Mr Elger, I wish to ask you a question.

00:55:02Yes, my lord.

00:55:03Which I think your counsel has neglected to do.

00:55:05My lord?

00:55:06Uh, you have testified that you kept a dozen or so blankets

00:55:10in the back room used for packing.

00:55:12Yes.

00:55:13Now, were those blankets in the same part of the room

00:55:16as the can of paraffin?

00:55:19No, they were on the opposite side.

00:55:21Members of the jury, you will remember that the fire officer, Mr Pettit,

00:55:24testified that if the fire had started amongst the blankets,

00:55:26as opposed to amongst the wooden furniture,

00:55:29that it might have smoldered for several hours

00:55:32so long as the blankets were not close to the paraffin.

00:55:34I'm deeply indebted to your lordship.

00:55:37Something I'd quite overlooked.

00:55:38Yes, I rather thought it was, Mr Lotterby.

00:55:40You may return to the dock.

00:55:43I call Marion Elger.

00:55:45Marion Elger, please.

00:55:46What is your religion?

00:56:04Church of England.

00:56:05Take the Bible in your right hand

00:56:07and read aloud the words on the card.

00:56:08I swear by almighty God

00:56:10that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth,

00:56:12the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

00:56:14Your name is Marion Elger

00:56:16and you live at Briar Cottage, Hayley Hill, Fulchester.

00:56:19Yes.

00:56:19And you are the mother of the defendant, Peter John.

00:56:23Yes.

00:56:23Mrs Elger, I understand that you've been brought here by ambulance

00:56:26from Fulchester Royal Infirmary

00:56:27and that it is waiting to take you back.

00:56:29Yes.

00:56:29You may be seated, if you wish.

00:56:31I'd rather stand.

00:56:32I promise that we will keep you here

00:56:34for as shorter time as possible.

00:56:37Mrs Elger, how long have you lived at your present address?

00:56:41Many years.

00:56:42My husband, my late husband,

00:56:44bought the cottage just after the war.

00:56:46It must be, what, 27 years.

00:56:49And am I right in saying that it is only in the last two years

00:56:51that your son, the defendant, has shared the cottage with you?

00:56:53Yes.

00:56:54He came to join me when my health began to deteriorate.

00:56:59Now, Mrs Elger, will you please tell the court

00:57:00what you remember of the evening of September the 22nd last?

00:57:04Was that the night of the fire?

00:57:05Yes, it was.

00:57:07Well, Peter came home from the shop about the usual time.

00:57:11Now, what time was that?

00:57:12Between six and half past.

00:57:13We had a drink, some sherry.

00:57:15You always have a drink?

00:57:16No.

00:57:17Only on Friday and Saturdays.

00:57:19And that was a Saturday.

00:57:21It's a habit that dates from my husband's time.

00:57:24He would only have a drink on Friday and Saturday evenings.

00:57:27I think Peter does the same.

00:57:29It's strange how habits pass on, too.

00:57:32Mrs Elger, you were saying you had a sherry?

00:57:34Yes.

00:57:36And then Peter went into the kitchen to make the dinner.

00:57:38That's customary, is it?

00:57:39Yes.

00:57:40He's an excellent cook and he enjoys it, which I don't.

00:57:43Afterwards, we watched television.

00:57:45Now, what time would that be when you'd finished the meal

00:57:47and were sitting down watching the television?

00:57:49Well, I can't be sure.

00:57:51About a quarter past eight, I should think.

00:57:53Yes.

00:57:53It must have been, because it was about an hour later

00:57:56that we got the phone calls.

00:57:57Ah, yes.

00:57:58Now, would you please tell the court about those telephone calls?

00:58:00Well, there were two of them.

00:58:02The first was from the police telling Peter the shop was on fire.

00:58:05And the second was from one of the tenants

00:58:07in the flats above the shop

00:58:08phoning from a public call box to say the same.

00:58:11And what happened then?

00:58:12Well, Peter dashed out and drove off.

00:58:14I heard one strike when he hadn't come in.

00:58:19In the morning, I found him sitting in the kitchen

00:58:22with his face and hands still black from the fire.

00:58:25Are you quite certain that from the time your son came home from the shop

00:58:28at about 6.30 until the time the telephone rang at 9.20,

00:58:32he was at home in the cottage with you and never left?

00:58:37Quite certain.

00:58:38Yes.

00:58:39Thank you, Mrs Elgar.

00:58:43Now, Mrs Elgar,

00:58:45still on that same fateful evening,

00:58:49when your son went into the kitchen to prepare the meal,

00:58:52where were you?

00:58:53In the sitting room.

00:58:54Were you already watching television?

00:58:56No, I don't think I watched television that evening before supper.

00:58:59But you can't be sure.

00:59:00Well, it's many months ago.

00:59:02Yes, quite so, quite so.

00:59:04Now, how long would you say your son

00:59:07was in the kitchen preparing supper?

00:59:09I really don't know.

00:59:11About half an hour or so.

00:59:12Yes.

00:59:13Is there a back door in the kitchen?

00:59:16Yes, it leads to...

00:59:18Yes, it leads to the garage at the side of the house, does it not?

00:59:24Yes.

00:59:25Now, suppose that you perhaps had been watching television

00:59:28and your son had gone out of that back door.

00:59:31Would you have heard him?

00:59:32Yes.

00:59:33You would have heard him go out?

00:59:34I should have heard the door open and I'd have heard it close.

00:59:37You're quite sure?

00:59:38Your hearing is good?

00:59:39There's nothing wrong with my hearing.

00:59:40But just suppose, Mrs. Elgarth,

00:59:43suppose you had been watching television

00:59:45and your son had gone out of the back door,

00:59:48opening and closing it quietly.

00:59:50What is it you're suggesting?

00:59:52I'm suggesting that if the meal had been something

00:59:55that more or less cooked itself,

00:59:56if it could be left over a low light,

00:59:58your son, in that half hour or so,

01:00:01could have driven into Fultchester,

01:00:03to the shop,

01:00:03and been back in time to put the meal on the table.

01:00:06No, he couldn't.

01:00:07I'd have heard him.

01:00:08I'd have heard him go and I'd heard him come back.

01:00:11You've no right to make such a wicked insinuation.

01:00:14No right at all.

01:00:15He's suffered enough already.

01:00:17I won't stay here and listen to your wicked insinuation.

01:00:19Mrs. Elgarth.

01:00:20You can go to blazes for all I care.

01:00:24Mrs. Elgarth, how old are you?

01:00:28How old are you, Mrs. Elgarth?

01:00:30Please answer the question, Mrs. Elgarth.

01:00:31Oh, I'm sorry.

01:00:32I didn't hear.

01:00:33I mean, I didn't hear what was asked.

01:00:35Thank you, Mrs. Elgarth.

01:00:37No further questions, my lord.

01:00:38But I, I could...

01:00:39That's all right, Mrs. Elgarth.

01:00:40You may leave now,

01:00:41unless Mr. Lotterby has some more questions for you.

01:00:43Thank you for coming from the hospital.

01:00:45I call Louise Anstruther.

01:01:12Louise Anstruther, please.

01:01:21You really are praying for sympathy, aren't you?

01:01:27My lord, with your permission,

01:01:28Mrs. Anstruther will give her testimony from the wheelchair.

01:01:32Very well, she may do so.

01:01:33I swear by almighty God

01:01:35that the evidence I shall give

01:01:37shall be the truth,

01:01:38the whole truth,

01:01:39and nothing but the truth.

01:01:40Your name is Louise Anstruther?

01:01:43Yes.

01:01:44And you live with your husband

01:01:45at flat 4, 17A Manning Street, Fulchester?

01:01:47Yes.

01:01:48Now, that is the flat above the antique shop,

01:01:50Elgar and Stroud, is it not?

01:01:52That's right, except the shop's there no more.

01:01:54Sign's been taken down.

01:01:55The premises are still closed, are they?

01:01:57Yes, Your Honour.

01:01:59Or, should I say, my lord?

01:02:01As long as the tone is respectful, Mrs. Anstruther,

01:02:04I never mind what the witness calls me.

01:02:07Mrs. Anstruther,

01:02:08how well do you know the defendant?

01:02:10Oh, fairly well.

01:02:11Saw quite a bit of him the two years

01:02:13since we moved in the flat.

01:02:14Where was this?

01:02:14Where did you see him?

01:02:15At the shop.

01:02:16I used to pop in there quite often.

01:02:18You're interested in antique furniture, are you?

01:02:20Oh, I'd like to be.

01:02:22Mr. Elgar taught me quite a few things

01:02:24about different periods

01:02:25and different woods

01:02:27and about what to look for

01:02:28to tell if something had been doctored up

01:02:30to look like an antique.

01:02:31Did you ever buy anything from him?

01:02:33Yes, two chairs.

01:02:35Oh, not proper antiques.

01:02:38Country pieces, Mr. Elgar called them.

01:02:41Windsor chairs.

01:02:42When did you last call in to see Mr. Elgar?

01:02:45Earlier on the day of the fire in the afternoon.

01:02:48Now, did you go into the back room

01:02:50or did you just stay in the front part of the shop?

01:02:52No, I went into the back room.

01:02:53Mr. Elgar was working there.

01:02:55Now, can you remember what was in that room?

01:02:57Yes, I remember seeing a big can in the corner,

01:03:02some bits of furniture,

01:03:04and there was a pile of blankets

01:03:05he used for packing on the floor.

01:03:08A pile of blankets?

01:03:11Now, whereabouts in the room?

01:03:13Near the can, you've told us about?

01:03:15No, away from there,

01:03:16on the other side of the room.

01:03:20Thank you, Mrs. Anstruther, that's all.

01:03:22Mrs. Anstruther,

01:03:24from what you've been saying,

01:03:25I infer that prior to the fire

01:03:26you were not confined to a wheelchair.

01:03:28Yes, Your Honour.

01:03:29Are you the person who was injured

01:03:30on the night of the fire?

01:03:32Yes.

01:03:33Tell us about the fire.

01:03:35Well, there was a banging at our front door,

01:03:38and I went to it,

01:03:40and it was Mr. Peters from the top floor.

01:03:43He said that the shop downstairs was on fire

01:03:46and I'd better get out.

01:03:47Yes, can you remember what time this was?

01:03:48Oh, about a quarter to nine,

01:03:50or perhaps ten-two.

01:03:52Well, I looked down the stairs

01:03:54and I couldn't see any fire

01:03:55or smoke or anything,

01:03:57so I nipped back in the flat

01:03:58to get our bits and pieces.

01:04:00To get your...

01:04:01Oh, I've got a few bits of jewellery,

01:04:04and Fred, my husband,

01:04:05has some silver cooks

01:04:06that he won as a lad.

01:04:08He was a fast runner,

01:04:09a sprinter,

01:04:10the hundred and the two...

01:04:11Yes, I gather, then,

01:04:12that your husband

01:04:13was not at home that evening.

01:04:14No, he was at the pub, Your Honour.

01:04:17It being Saturday,

01:04:18I didn't expect him to close him.

01:04:18So you went back

01:04:19to collect your valuables?

01:04:20Yes, and put them in a suitcase

01:04:22together with my fur.

01:04:24Then I went to the front door,

01:04:26opened it,

01:04:27and got the shock of my life.

01:04:30The lights had gone out on the landing,

01:04:32and all I could see was smoke,

01:04:34great gusts of smoke

01:04:36coming up the staircase

01:04:37like clouds,

01:04:38and, oh, I could smell it.

01:04:40Oh, I didn't dare go any further.

01:04:42I turned and went back

01:04:44as quick as I could,

01:04:44dropping the suitcase.

01:04:46By now,

01:04:47the flat was full of smoke.

01:04:49Well, I went to the window,

01:04:50opened it,

01:04:51and leaned out.

01:04:53It was very bright

01:04:54down in the street,

01:04:56lots of lights

01:04:56all over the place,

01:04:58and I could see faces

01:04:59and the fire engines,

01:05:01and I could hear the siren.

01:05:03There was a lot of noise,

01:05:04and people shouting,

01:05:06and I shouted down,

01:05:07Help!

01:05:08Help!

01:05:09And I could see faces

01:05:10looking up,

01:05:11and I yelled,

01:05:12Should a jump!

01:05:13And I thought I heard a man say,

01:05:15Right you are!

01:05:16And I could see men

01:05:17standing below the window,

01:05:18sort of holding their arms out,

01:05:20and I put one foot

01:05:21up on the ledge,

01:05:22and I pushed myself out.

01:05:23But I found out later

01:05:30that what the man was yelling

01:05:32was,

01:05:34Stay right where you are.

01:05:37Oh, I was in hospital

01:05:44for four months.

01:05:45And now you are paralysed

01:05:47from the waist down?

01:05:48No, no,

01:05:49not strictly speaking.

01:05:51My functions,

01:05:55but they still function,

01:05:56I'm thankful to say.

01:05:58It's just my legs.

01:05:59It's just the use of my legs.

01:06:01I see.

01:06:03Mr. Parsons?

01:06:04Thank you, my lord.

01:06:04Now,

01:06:07you know,

01:06:07don't you,

01:06:08Mrs. Anstruther,

01:06:08that Mr. Elgar

01:06:09is accused of having

01:06:11started the fire,

01:06:12which resulted in you

01:06:13being paralysed?

01:06:14Of course.

01:06:15So I tell you

01:06:16you don't blame the defendant

01:06:17for the injuries

01:06:18you incurred.

01:06:19No,

01:06:19no,

01:06:19I don't.

01:06:20Now,

01:06:21why not?

01:06:22Why not?

01:06:22Because he never

01:06:23set fire to the shop.

01:06:25Well,

01:06:25what makes you say that?

01:06:26Well,

01:06:26he couldn't.

01:06:27Not on your life,

01:06:28he couldn't.

01:06:29It's not in his nature.

01:06:30Not in his nature?

01:06:32Now,

01:06:33what do you mean by that?

01:06:34Well,

01:06:35some men are capable

01:06:37of doing something

01:06:38violent like that,

01:06:39and some aren't,

01:06:40and he couldn't.

01:06:42He's a very

01:06:43gentle man.

01:06:45Oh,

01:06:45couldn't swat a fly,

01:06:47I'm sure.

01:06:48And as for setting fire

01:06:49to antiques,

01:06:50I mean,

01:06:50So you think

01:06:51that poor Mr. Elgar

01:06:52has been wrongly accused

01:06:53that you've come here

01:06:54to help them?

01:06:55Yes,

01:06:55I do.

01:06:56That's why you've come

01:06:57to tell the court

01:06:58about the blankets.

01:06:59Well,

01:06:59it's important,

01:07:00isn't it?

01:07:00Yes,

01:07:01but did you really see them?

01:07:02Yes,

01:07:02I did.

01:07:03Now,

01:07:03Mrs. Anstruther,

01:07:03when you heard

01:07:04that Mr. Elgar

01:07:05had pleaded guilty

01:07:06to a charge of attempting

01:07:07to obtain money

01:07:08by deception,

01:07:10the deception being

01:07:11a fraudulent insurance claim

01:07:12on the damage

01:07:14caused by the fire,

01:07:15were you surprised?

01:07:17Oh,

01:07:17yes,

01:07:18absolutely flabbergasted.

01:07:19We all were.

01:07:21Why was that?

01:07:22Was it because

01:07:22you didn't think

01:07:23it was in his nature

01:07:25to do such a thing?

01:07:26Yes,

01:07:26and it seemed...

01:07:29Thank you,

01:07:30Mrs. Anstruther.

01:07:31No further questions,

01:07:32my lord.

01:07:35No,

01:07:35my lord.

01:07:36Thank you,

01:07:36Mrs. Anstruther.

01:07:37You may leave the Whitney.

01:07:38That is to say,

01:07:39you are free to leave the court.

01:07:41You may either go

01:07:41or if you wish

01:07:42to stay for the rest

01:07:43of the proceedings,

01:07:44we'll find a place

01:07:45for your wheelchair

01:07:45over there.

01:07:46I'd like to stay,

01:07:47please.

01:07:47Very well.

01:07:48That concludes

01:07:49the case for the defence,

01:07:50my lord.

01:07:53Members of the jury,

01:08:00you have listened

01:08:00carefully to all

01:08:01the evidence

01:08:02and you have been

01:08:02addressed by both counsels.

01:08:04Now,

01:08:04there are two charges

01:08:05against the defendant

01:08:06and they are,

01:08:07one,

01:08:08that on the 22nd of September

01:08:101973,

01:08:11without lawful excuse,

01:08:12he damaged by fire

01:08:13a shop at 17 Manning Street,

01:08:15Fultchester,

01:08:15belonging to Chester and Hussey,

01:08:18intending to damage

01:08:19such property.

01:08:21And,

01:08:22two,

01:08:22that on the 22nd of September

01:08:241973,

01:08:25without lawful excuse,

01:08:26he damaged premises

01:08:27at 17 Manning Street,

01:08:28Fultchester,

01:08:29being reckless

01:08:30as to whether

01:08:30the lives of the tenants

01:08:32at 17A Manning Street,

01:08:34Fultchester

01:08:34would be thereby

01:08:36endangered.

01:08:39Now,

01:08:39the key question

01:08:40you have to consider

01:08:41is how was that fire started?

01:08:43Now,

01:08:43you've read the report

01:08:45of the fire prevention officer

01:08:46which stated

01:08:47that no accidental cause

01:08:48could be found

01:08:49for the fire

01:08:50and therefore

01:08:50it must be considered

01:08:51to be of doubtful origin.

01:08:55Now,

01:08:55was that fire started

01:08:57quickly

01:08:57with the aid of paraffin

01:08:59late in the evening

01:09:00when only the defendant

01:09:01had access to the premises

01:09:03or had it been smouldering there

01:09:05for several hours?

01:09:08Now,

01:09:08you will know

01:09:09that the defendant

01:09:09has already pleaded guilty

01:09:11to another offence

01:09:12and,

01:09:13as counsel has pointed out,

01:09:15that does not necessarily

01:09:17presuppose

01:09:18that he is guilty

01:09:20of the offences

01:09:22with which he is now charged.

01:09:24As always,

01:09:25in a court of law,

01:09:25there must be a presumption

01:09:26of innocence.

01:09:27Each charge

01:09:28must be considered

01:09:29on its own merits

01:09:30and the accused person

01:09:32must be considered innocent

01:09:33until he is

01:09:34proved guilty.

01:09:36However,

01:09:37you may think

01:09:38that by admitting

01:09:39that he is guilty

01:09:40of that other offence,

01:09:41he has provided himself

01:09:42with a motive

01:09:43for committing the offences

01:09:45with which he is now charged.

01:09:47And you might also think

01:09:48that had it not been

01:09:49for the resourceful inquiries

01:09:51made by the insurance company

01:09:53investigator,

01:09:54Miss Green,

01:09:55the defendant

01:09:56might not have been charged

01:09:57with either offence.

01:10:00It will not have escaped

01:10:01your notice,

01:10:02members of the jury,

01:10:03that there is no direct evidence

01:10:05against the accused.

01:10:05That is to say,

01:10:06nobody saw him strike a match

01:10:08in order to start the fire.

01:10:10what evidence there is

01:10:12against him

01:10:13is circumstantial evidence.

01:10:15Now,

01:10:15a piece of circumstantial evidence

01:10:17does not of itself

01:10:19prove a person guilty,

01:10:21but it does create

01:10:22a circumstance

01:10:23or circumstances

01:10:25which makes it possible

01:10:27for that person

01:10:28to be guilty

01:10:28or alternatively

01:10:31makes it less likely

01:10:32that any other person

01:10:34is guilty.

01:10:36Where the weight

01:10:37of circumstantial evidence

01:10:39is overwhelming,

01:10:40it is sufficient to convict,

01:10:42but only if the prosecution

01:10:44has proved to you,

01:10:45beyond all reasonable doubt,

01:10:47members of the jury,

01:10:49that the accused is guilty.

01:10:54Will you now please retire

01:10:55to consider your verdict?

01:10:57All stand.

01:11:03Members of the jury,

01:11:05will your foreman please stand?

01:11:06Just answer this question,

01:11:08yes or no.

01:11:08Have you reached verdicts

01:11:10on which you're all agreed?

01:11:11Yes.

01:11:12On the first count,

01:11:13do you find the accused,

01:11:14Peter Elgar,

01:11:15guilty or not guilty

01:11:16of damaging by fire

01:11:18the premises of a shop

01:11:19at 17 Manning Street,

01:11:21Fulchester?

01:11:21Not guilty.

01:11:23On the second count,

01:11:24of damaging the said premises,

01:11:26being reckless

01:11:27as to whether the lives

01:11:28of the tenants

01:11:28at 17A Manning Street,

01:11:30Fulchester,

01:11:30would be thereby endangered,

01:11:32do you find the accused,

01:11:34Peter Elgar,

01:11:35guilty or not guilty?

01:11:36Not guilty.

01:11:37You are discharged

01:11:40and are free

01:11:40to leave the court.

01:11:41All stand.

01:11:42next week,

01:11:55a chance for you

01:11:56to join another jury

01:11:57in assessing the facts

01:11:58when our cameras return

01:11:59to watch a leading case

01:12:00in the Crown Court.

01:12:01The End

01:12:18The End

01:12:19You

Crown Court - Further Charges (1974)

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