- 2 weeks ago
Sylvia Kelly is charged on two counts: cruelty to a person under the age of 16 years and wilful neglect. Peter Cellier, Doreen Mantle and the delightfully terrifying Caroline Blakiston star.
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00:00:00The
00:00:27are about to see is a fictional one but the procedure is legally accurate the
00:00:30characters are played by actors but the jury is selected from members of the
00:00:34general public
00:00:37Sylvia Kelly we stand indicted on two counts on the first count who were
00:00:44charged with cruelty to a person under 16 contrary to a section 1 subsection 1
00:00:49of the children and young persons act 1933 and the particulars are that on the
00:00:54night of August 1976 at 12 Micklethwaite mansions for Chester you being a person
00:01:00who were detained the age of 16 years having the charge of Leonie Klein a child
00:01:05under that age willfully ill-treated the said child in a manner likely to cause
00:01:10unnecessary suffering to the said child or injury to her health to that charge how
00:01:15do you plead guilty or not guilty not guilty on the second count you were also
00:01:21charged with cruelty Sylvia Kelly is a child minder living in a dilapidated
00:01:25block of flats in Fortchester whilst in her care a small girl Leonie Klein has
00:01:30fallen two floors from a dangerous fire escape and been seriously injured the
00:01:35child claims that the minder had locked her out on the fire escape because she
00:01:39was cross with her willfully neglected the said child in a manner likely to cause
00:01:45unnecessary suffering to the said child or injury to her health how do you plead to
00:01:50this charge guilty or not guilty not guilty the accused habitually left open the
00:01:59door to this very dangerous fire escape while she was looking after small
00:02:03children which in itself in my submission constitutes neglect but on the day in
00:02:07question she lost her temper with this very small girl and actually locked her out on
00:02:13this balcony as a punishment now neglect is defined as follows paragraph 2773 of
00:02:20Archibald your honor neglect is the want of reasonable care that is the omission of
00:02:27such steps as a reasonable parent would take such steps as are usually taken in the
00:02:32ordinary experience of mankind now members of the jury it is my submission that
00:02:38not only did Sylvia Kelly not take the steps that a reasonable parent would take but she deliberately
00:02:44placed this unfortunate child in a situation where an accident was bound to happen and that in my
00:02:50submission constitutes neglect you are Amelia Judith Klein I am and you live at 17 Woodside Avenue
00:02:58Fullchester yes and you're the mother of Leonie Klein who was injured on the 9th of August last year while she was in the care of the accused
00:03:05Sylvia Kelly yes now how old was Leonie at the time four and a half and will you tell the court
00:03:10so mrs. Klein how your daughter came to be in the care of the accused yes mrs. Kelly was minding her for me while I was at work and what sort of work do you do I'm an actress and over what period of time had the accused been looking after your child
00:03:23on and off for about two years but I didn't leave Leonie with Sylvia I'm sorry with mrs. Kelly all the
00:03:32time only when I was at work and how often would you say that was well it varied I suppose every couple
00:03:37of months and what happened to Leonie the rest of the time I looked after her myself now could you
00:03:42tell us what happened when you took Leonie around to mrs. Kelly's flat on August the 9th the day the
00:03:48accident occurred mrs. Klein how long had you been leaving Leonie with mrs. Kelly this time I mean for
00:03:53how many consecutive days that was the first day and how long was it since you had last left Leonie
00:03:58with mrs. Kelly's a long time three months I virtually stopped using her you see but my agent rang me on
00:04:04the Friday and asked me if I could be in Manchester on the Monday so I had to find a minder quickly so
00:04:10that prior to that Monday your daughter had not been left with mrs. Kelly for some three months no I see
00:04:17you carry on mr. could you tell us what happened when you took Leonie around to the accused flat
00:04:22mrs. Klein yes I noticed that the door was open and which door was that the door to the balcony
00:04:27there was a long corridor in Sylvia's mrs. Kelly's flat and I noticed that the door was open and did
00:04:33you comment on this yes I did I said I didn't think it was very safe with small children around to leave
00:04:37the door open and what did she reply she said it was so hot it was because it was so hot that she had
00:04:43the door open that it created a through draft and what did you say to that well it was hot I
00:04:48appreciated that but I said I thought nevertheless the door ought to be kept closed now did you inspect
00:04:53the balcony and the fire escape mrs. Klein yes I did I went out there and what did you see there
00:04:58well it was terribly dangerous I mean nearly all the railings had gone so was there any safety rail
00:05:04at all on the outer side of the balcony no nothing at all now after you'd commented on the danger to
00:05:09small children of leaving the door to the balcony open now what did mrs. Kelly say nothing but she
00:05:15did shut the door and she locked it she locked it so that when you left Leonie there for the day
00:05:20the balcony door was shut and locked yes now did you speak to your daughter about the balcony mrs. Klein
00:05:26yes I did I told her that it was very dangerous and I thought no account must she go out there oh
00:05:31you said she was four at the time four and a half yes and she would have understood your instructions do
00:05:35you think oh yes yes certainly you say that she was an obedient child mrs. Klein yes she's always
00:05:40been a very sensible little girl now you then went off to work at the TV studios yes and what happened
00:05:48next well at about 3 30 in the afternoon a telephone call came through from Fulchester Hospital to say
00:05:55that Leonie had had a bad accident and would I come right away and did you go right away yes I did I
00:06:00dropped everything and went and what did you find when you got there Leonie was unconscious the doctor
00:06:06said she'd had very bad spinal injuries and she'd broken some bones in her pelvis very distressing for
00:06:12you I understand that in fact she's had to have two further operations since the accident yes and
00:06:17there's at least another one to come so these were very serious injuries indeed yes now when you were at
00:06:25the hospital did you meet the accused there Mrs. Klein yes and did she say anything to you she just kept
00:06:31saying over and over again that she was sorry I see she kept on saying over and over again that she
00:06:37was sorry did she explain what had happened oh she said it was the balcony she tried to offload the
00:06:43whole thing onto the landlord make out that it was his fault did she explain how Leonie came to be
00:06:47out on the balcony she said she kept going out there I asked her why the door had been left open
00:06:52and she said they'd all been roasting in the flat so that in spite of what you'd said to her about
00:06:56the balcony she must have unlocked the door to it after you left yes now at this stage Mrs. Klein did
00:07:02the possibility arise that Leonie might have been locked out there deliberately well obviously not
00:07:07until she regained consciousness thank you Mrs. Klein we'll come to that when your daughter gives
00:07:11evidence Mrs. Klein do you know where the room was where the children normally played at Mrs. Kelly's
00:07:17yes it was a large room at the front of the flat at the front of the flat so it was at the opposite
00:07:22end of the corridor from the balcony yes so that if the children were playing in the room which Mrs.
00:07:26Kelly intended for their use they would have been nowhere near the balcony oh come on you know what
00:07:30children are they're always getting into things they shouldn't dangerous situations attract them do
00:07:35they Mrs. Klein or is it perhaps that dangerous situations attract your child is it perhaps just
00:07:40your child who gets into things she shouldn't I think that's most unfair now you said you decided to
00:07:47stop using Mrs. Kelly as a child minder could you tell us why well for one thing she had too many
00:07:53children I see how many children was she looking after when you'd last used her in May I think it
00:07:59must have been yes it was about then seven including her own two and this seemed to you too many yes
00:08:05then how is it that on August the 9th you decided to leave Leonie with Mrs. Kelly once again
00:08:10well I've already explained that it was an emergency my agent rang me at short notice and I
00:08:15had no one else to leave Leonie with did you inquire as to how many children she had this time yes
00:08:21yes what did Mrs. Kelly say well actually she said two of the children will be collected by their
00:08:28father after lunch and that they wouldn't be there all day but she didn't actually say how many
00:08:32children would be there no no she's sly like that and you didn't press her no you just assumed
00:08:39everything would be all right look I was desperate I wanted to mind her there was nothing else I could do
00:08:44you could have changed your mind about work no I couldn't not at that stage I had to be in
00:08:50Manchester by 11 o'clock Mrs. Klein you could have decided not to go to Manchester could you not
00:08:55if the welfare of your child mattered to you more than some inconsequential part in a television show
00:09:01well of course the welfare of my child mattered to me did it Mrs. Klein you're an articulate and highly
00:09:10educated woman you know what constitutes good child care and what does not and yet you deliberately
00:09:16chose to leave your child your only child with someone about whom you had grave doubts I suggest
00:09:22this was hardly the action of a responsible and loving parent I must object it's the extent of the
00:09:27accused responsibility for this child's injuries that we're trying to ascertain not Mrs. Klein your
00:09:31honor my case is that this prosecution would not have been brought had Mrs. Klein not insisted it is
00:09:36therefore material to the case to discover why Mrs. Klein is so keen on prosecution both her attitude
00:09:41to the child and to the woman who looked after her are highly relevant to this case yes please
00:09:47proceed Mrs. Fulton I'm obliged your honor Mrs. Klein you say that you noticed the balcony was dangerous
00:09:55yes yet knowing the danger of the balcony you stuck to your decision and left Learney with Mrs. Kelly
00:10:00I'd understood that Mrs. Kelly was going to keep the door shut but I think you also said you told
00:10:07Learney not to go out on the balcony yes I did so you didn't think that Mrs. Kelly would necessarily
00:10:12keep the door closed after you'd gone well I didn't know anyway Learney didn't fall off the balcony
00:10:18because the door was left open she fell off because Sylvia deliberately locked her out there that is
00:10:23your speculation Mrs. Klein I shall come to that in a moment now I think you said that your daughter
00:10:31was a sensible and obedient child yes whereas my client will contend that that was not so
00:10:37well she would wouldn't she would she Mrs. Klein why she never liked Learney really what makes you say
00:10:44that Learney's a much more sensible intelligent child than the ordinary run of children that Sylvia
00:10:50looks after she needs stimulation more things to do she's a clever girl she's alert she talks a lot
00:10:57you can't just shove her in a room and leave her to get on with things it amazes me Mrs. Klein the way
00:11:03you were prepared to leave your child with someone you felt as unsuited to Learney's needs as Mrs. Kelly
00:11:08look I've told you my god it wasn't as if I left her there from eight until six six days a week
00:11:14as far as I was concerned it was an occasional arrangement an emergency arrangement all the more
00:11:19unfortunate then that this accident should have happened
00:11:22at 9 15 p.m. on the 9th of August I went to number 12 Micklethwaite mansions Fortchester
00:11:38where I saw a woman who identified herself to me as Sylvia Kelly the accused I said to her that
00:11:44Mrs. Klein had reported that her four-year-old daughter Leone had fallen from the fire escape
00:11:49leading from Mrs. Kelly's flat and that Mrs. Klein alleged that Mrs. Kelly was looking after several
00:11:54children in unsafe circumstances Mrs. Kelly was very distressed about the accident she explained
00:12:01to me that the child had gone out there alone and had fallen when one of the steps had come away
00:12:06while she was trying to descend the fire escape what had the child fallen onto officer was it grass or
00:12:11gravel or what it was flagstone your honor concrete the courtyard was paved I see carry on sir now
00:12:19officer what do you say this balcony constituted an obvious hazard for small children well if the
00:12:24door was open sir yes I would no question about it and what about if a child were put out on the
00:12:28balcony well that would have been asking for trouble sir yes thank you officer I've no further
00:12:32questions you didn't make any charges against Mrs. Kelly after you'd inspected the balcony did you
00:12:38Constable Mack no I mentioned that Mrs. Klein had said the balcony was very dangerous I didn't want
00:12:44to go too hard on her owing to she was so upset the defendant was so upset yes well you didn't charge
00:12:51Mrs. Kelly with any offense Constable Mack would you tell us what action you did take we formed
00:12:55Fultchester social services department and left the matter with them so at that stage that is to say
00:13:00on the evening after the accident after you'd inspected the balcony in your view this was not a matter
00:13:05of the crime not really no because you see my learned friend is suggesting that keeping children
00:13:11in that flat with the fire escape and the condition it was in of itself constituted negligence yes well
00:13:18it did but I mean it seemed a bit hard dumping it all on her there are a lot of people negligent in
00:13:23this situation the landlord he should have seen that the fire escape was in good repair and the parents
00:13:29well they must have known that Mrs. Kelly wasn't a registered minder now wait a minute we have to be very
00:13:33careful here not to refer to matters that have no bearing on this case your honor I think the jury
00:13:39will inevitably realize that Mrs. Kelly was not a registered child minder and that she was breaking
00:13:45the law in this respect I think it's better to admit that now not to keep trying to skate around it
00:13:51very well as you wish members of the jury you will have heard that Mrs. Kelly is not a registered
00:13:56child minder and therefore was committing an offense in looking after these children that offense is not
00:14:01a very serious one and is dealt with by magistrates is not dealt with in the crown court you are not concerned
00:14:06as to whether Mrs. Kelly was a registered child minder or not what is at issue here is whether she was
00:14:12willfully neglectful and whether she locked the child out on this dangerous balcony carry on Mrs. Fenton
00:14:19thank you your honor so Constable Mack on the evening of the 9th of August you decided this
00:14:24unfortunate accident was not a matter for the crown and referred the case to Fulchester social services
00:14:28yes did Mrs. Klein contact you again yes she phoned on the 19th of August to say what she wanted to
00:14:36know if we were bringing charges against Mrs. Kelly and what did you tell her that we left the matter
00:14:40with Fulchester social services department what was Mrs. Klein's reaction to that she said she was
00:14:45surprised she said she thought it would have brought a charge of criminal negligence against her
00:14:50was that all she said no she said that Leone had told her that Mrs. Kelly had locked her out
00:14:56this was the first time you'd heard of that yes and Mrs. Klein mentioned it after you told her you
00:15:01were not bringing criminal charges against Mrs. Kelly yes and what did you do about these new
00:15:05allegations about Mrs. Kelly we went back to interview her and we spoke to the child and to
00:15:10Mrs. Williams the lady who was first on the scene you did that immediately after Mrs. Klein had made
00:15:15the allegations no Mrs. Klein came in again on the 20th to see the super and it was after she'd spoken
00:15:21to him that I went back to see Mrs. Kelly and what did Mrs. Kelly have to say when you told her about
00:15:25these new allegations that she had locked Leone out she said that's ridiculous I'd never do a thing
00:15:32like that they're making it up they just want to make trouble was Mrs. Kelly charged that day
00:15:37constable no so can you tell us when Mrs. Kelly was charged with willfully neglecting and ill-treating
00:15:43Leone Klein she was charged on the 30th of September 1976 six weeks after the allegations
00:15:49were made yes a long delay the truth is the police were reluctant to bring charges in this case weren't
00:15:58they constable Mac well yes I mean as far as locking the child out it was just the child's word against
00:16:04her precisely and it was only because of Mrs. Klein's insistence that these charges were brought
00:16:09well Mrs. Klein remained convinced that there was a case against the defendant yes and my superiors
00:16:15agreed that there was evidence so I would be right would I not in concluding from this that had Mrs. Klein
00:16:20been a little less insistent the Fulchester police would not have brought charges against Mrs. Kelly
00:16:25I really can't say no but I'm sure the jury will be able to draw their own conclusions from this
00:16:32thank you very much constable Mackey for most help
00:16:35I call Selma Williams
00:16:40could I be told what you've just told Mr. Hudson please your honor the witness isn't present at court this
00:16:53morning not present where is she was she notified of this hearing yes your honor a full witness order
00:16:59was made in her case in that case perhaps the police better make some inquiries have you another
00:17:06witness you can call or do we have to adjourn we could take the child next if your honor is
00:17:10agreeable by all means better than wasting the public's money I call Leonie Klein
00:17:15hello Leonie you've come to tell us what happened the day you fell off the balcony have you
00:17:34yes now Leonie do you know what a lie is it's when you don't tell the truth
00:17:41that's right it's when you don't tell the truth and is it good or bad to tell lies
00:17:46it's bad it's bad good girl so are you going to tell us the truth about what happened the day you fell
00:17:51off the balcony yes good girl and um do you know about God Leonie
00:17:58yes well I think in view of her age she'd better give her evidence unsworn all right
00:18:05Mr. Hudson thank you your honor now Leonie you'll have to talk very loudly so we can all hear you
00:18:13all right can you give me your name and address first of all
00:18:17Leonie and Klein 17 Woodside Avenue Forchester very good and how old are you Leonie five and a half
00:18:25five and a half oh five and a half yes and do you remember going to Mrs. Kelly's flat yes and do
00:18:34you remember the balcony there yes now did your mummy tell you anything about that balcony yes what
00:18:42did she say she said I wasn't to go out on it and did she say why yes because it was very dangerous
00:18:49because it was very dangerous because you might fall off yes now did you go out on it Leonie
00:18:57no but you did fall off didn't you yes so how did you come to be out on the balcony when you fell off
00:19:06Leonie Sylvia made me go out Sylvia made you go out yes and why did Sylvia make you go out
00:19:13she was cross with me I see and what happened when Sylvia got cross with you she smacked me she
00:19:21smacked you where did she smack you on my bottom and did she smack you once or lots of times lots of
00:19:28times and then what did she do she made me go out on the balcony now can you remember what she said
00:19:34yes what did she say stay out there then stay out there then yes and then what happened she shut me
00:19:44out there she shut you out there and could you get back in again no why couldn't you I couldn't open
00:19:51the door did you try to open the door yes and how long were you out there lady don't know a long time
00:19:58no and then what happened I wanted to go home you wanted to go home so what did you do I started to go
00:20:06down the steps and what happened then don't know you fell down didn't you yes Paul Leonie
00:20:16well I think you've been a very good little girl to answer all my questions thank you very much
00:20:21your honor I wonder if the mother might be asked to leave the court while I cross-examine the child
00:20:26is that necessary mrs. Fenton I think it might unnerve the child she is after all very young I think
00:20:32it is your honor I feel the mother's presence might inhibit the child and cause her to answer
00:20:36she feels her mother might wish well if you feel it's really necessary mrs. Klein I wonder if you'd be
00:20:42so good as to leave us just for a moment
00:20:43where's my mommy going
00:20:49join us again tomorrow when the queen against Kelly will be resumed in the crown court
00:21:15so
00:21:17so
00:21:21so
00:21:23so
00:21:25so
00:21:27so
00:21:29so
00:21:35The case we're about to see is a fictional one.
00:21:59The procedure is legally accurate.
00:22:01The characters are played by actors, but the jury is selected from members of the general public.
00:22:07Sylvia Kelly is a childminder living in a dilapidated block of flats in Forchester.
00:22:12Whilst in her care, a small girl, Leonie Klein, has fallen two floors from a dangerous fire escape and been badly injured.
00:22:19The child claims that the minder had locked her out on the fire escape because she was cross with her.
00:22:24We rejoin the case as Mrs Fenton, counsel for the defence, begins her cross-examination of the child.
00:22:29At her request, the mother has been excluded from the court.
00:22:33Thank you, Your Honour.
00:22:36Did you like going to Sylvia's, Leonie?
00:22:39Yes.
00:22:40Did you?
00:22:41No.
00:22:42Why didn't you like going there?
00:22:44She kept on getting cross with me.
00:22:46Did she?
00:22:47What did she get cross with you about?
00:22:49Don't know, she just didn't like me.
00:22:52Did she tell you she didn't like you?
00:22:53Did she tell you she didn't like you or did Mummy say she didn't like you?
00:23:01Leonie, I want you to try and remember why Sylvia got cross with you the day you fell off the balcony.
00:23:06Everyone kept being horrible to me.
00:23:08Who kept being horrible to you? The other children?
00:23:11Yes.
00:23:12What did they do?
00:23:13They kept teasing me and care if I wouldn't be my friend.
00:23:16So what did you do?
00:23:17I didn't do anything, but Sylvia said I didn't got cross with me.
00:23:21Are you sure Sylvia didn't get cross with you for going out on the fire escape, Leonie?
00:23:24Yes.
00:23:26Now, before you fell off the fire escape, did a lady talk to you?
00:23:30A lady on the balcony downstairs?
00:23:32No.
00:23:33Are you sure, Leonie?
00:23:36Leonie, are you sure?
00:23:38Yes.
00:23:40Because you see, I've been told that Mrs. Williams from downstairs told you to go inside.
00:23:44Don't you remember that?
00:23:45No.
00:23:46When you woke up in the hospital, did you remember falling off the fire escape?
00:23:52Yes.
00:23:53And what did you think Mummy would say?
00:23:57Did you think Mummy would be cross with you?
00:24:01Did you?
00:24:04Can you answer yes or no?
00:24:07Yes.
00:24:08You did think Mummy would be cross with you?
00:24:11Yes.
00:24:12And she was?
00:24:13A bit.
00:24:14She was cross with you?
00:24:15She was cross with Sylvia.
00:24:17You don't think perhaps that Mummy was really cross with herself and she just wanted to put the blame on someone else?
00:24:22Your Honour, this is pure psychological speculation.
00:24:24Furthermore, the child isn't nearly old enough to withstand this sort of emotional bullying.
00:24:28Your Honour, it is crucially important to establish whether or not this child is telling the truth.
00:24:32I'm merely suggesting a very likely reason for her to lie, namely fear of her mother's anger.
00:24:36Yes, but I don't see how a child can be expected to answer that question.
00:24:41Did you understand that question, Leonie?
00:24:44No.
00:24:46Leonie, did you tell Mummy that Sylvia locked you out on the balcony so that Mummy wouldn't be cross with you?
00:24:53Oh, my Mummy!
00:24:56Yes, well, I don't think there's any point in trying to protract this audio, Mrs. Fenton.
00:24:59I don't think we're going to get an answer.
00:25:00No, Your Honour.
00:25:00Have you any further questions, then?
00:25:02I know you're not on the point of space.
00:25:02Please.
00:25:03Oh, Christ, that bloody woman, hasn't she done enough harm already?
00:25:16It's all right, darling, it's all right.
00:25:18Mum's here.
00:25:21Now, Mrs. Tilly, you work for the Fortchester Social Services Department, do you not?
00:25:25That's right.
00:25:26And can you tell me when you first met the defendant?
00:25:29I went round to see her on August the 10th, the day after the accident.
00:25:33And what time of day did you visit her?
00:25:34It was in the morning at about half past 11.
00:25:36What was Mrs. Kelly doing?
00:25:39She was looking after her own two children, and there were four other children there.
00:25:43Making six children in all?
00:25:45Yes.
00:25:45Now, did you consider this to be a lot of children for one woman to be looking after, Mrs. Tilly?
00:25:49Well, yes, I did.
00:25:50I mean, what's the maximum number of children that have, mindless, permitted to look after at one time under council regulations?
00:25:56Well, we normally rule that a woman should look after no more than three children under five, including her own.
00:26:02And why is that?
00:26:03Well, we feel it's not possible to give adequate care and attention to more than that number of children.
00:26:08Plus the fact that we do like our minders to get out with the children, to parks, playgrounds, one o'clock clubs, that sort of thing.
00:26:16Three children under five are about all that any one person can cope with.
00:26:20Yes, thank you.
00:26:21Now, when you went to see Mrs. Kelly, did you inspect the premises?
00:26:26Yes.
00:26:26And was the balcony door open or shut on the day you went?
00:26:29It was open, but Mrs. Kelly had jammed an old fire guard across it.
00:26:34Now, Mrs. Tilly, if you had inspected the defendant's premises with a view to registering her as a childminder, what would have been your opinion of this balcony?
00:26:42Well, the balcony itself was clearly very unsafe, but in fact the danger could have been very easily contained.
00:26:48Yes, can you explain what you mean by that?
00:26:49Well, all that was needed was to fit a gate across the balcony door while it was open.
00:26:55Now, this, of course, would not have solved the problem if, as Leonie alleges, she'd been shut outside by Mrs. Kelly as a punishment.
00:27:01No.
00:27:02Mrs. Tilly, would this not have involved some sort of carpentry, some sort of structural work for the premises?
00:27:07No, Your Honor. These gates are adjustable, and we supply them free of charge, the department does, to our registered minors.
00:27:14I see. And, um, how tall are these gates?
00:27:17About three foot, Your Honor?
00:27:19Three foot.
00:27:21It wouldn't presumably have prevented a determined four-year-old from climbing over it if he or she had set their minds to it.
00:27:28No, but it would have broken the clear run out from corridor to fire escape, and, of course, protected the younger children.
00:27:35Yes. Thank you, Mrs. Tilly.
00:27:37Carry on, Mr. Hudson.
00:27:39What other safety precautions does the council advise, Mrs. Tilly?
00:27:42Well, there's no statutory list as such, but we generally insist on fire guards, for instance, and we don't allow movable paraffin heaters, and there has to be another adult on call in case of emergency.
00:27:55We like them to have gates across the kitchen to prevent the children coming into the kitchen while the minder is cooking, and, in addition, we supply our registered minders with cooker guards, so that if a child grabs a panhandle, it doesn't topple off.
00:28:11And, of course, we offer advice on the storage of medicines, bleach, knives, that sort of thing.
00:28:17And could you tell us which of these precautions Mrs. Kelly was observing?
00:28:20Your Honor, I object. Whether or not Mrs. Kelly had a cooker guard has no bearing on Leonie Klein's accident.
00:28:25Your Honor, we're trying to establish whether Sylvia Kelly neglected Leonie Klein.
00:28:29I hired you towards safety is, therefore, surely of the utmost relevance to this case.
00:28:33Nevertheless, it is not whether she was generally negligent, which is at issue, but whether she was negligent in respect to the fire escape.
00:28:40Now, I don't think you should pursue this line of questioning, Mr. Hudson.
00:28:44As Your Honor pleases.
00:28:46Now, you say you inspected these premises, Mrs. Tilly.
00:28:49Could you please describe to us how Mrs. Kelly's flat was organised?
00:28:53Yes.
00:28:53She had a big room in front with toys in it where the children played,
00:28:57and in the room next to it, she had a cot and some mattresses on the floor for the children to rest.
00:29:02So she'd clearly given the arrangement some thought.
00:29:04Yes.
00:29:04And where were these rooms relative to the fire escape?
00:29:07Oh, they were in the front of the flat, and the fire escape was at the back.
00:29:10So they were separated by a long corridor?
00:29:12Yes.
00:29:13So if the children had been playing where Mrs. Kelly intended they should play,
00:29:15there would have been nowhere near the balcony?
00:29:17No.
00:29:18Although, with very small children, one can never be sure they're going to do what one intends.
00:29:22No.
00:29:24Now, Mrs. Tilly,
00:29:25when the council discovers someone has been minding children illegally,
00:29:29what is your normal procedure?
00:29:30Do you normally prosecute?
00:29:33Well, it depends, but, uh, no, not usually.
00:29:36We generally send someone round to see them to try and persuade them to register themselves.
00:29:41Why is that?
00:29:42Well, we don't want to penalise them.
00:29:44We'd rather they register themselves, and then they...
00:29:46We've got another minder, you see,
00:29:48and they get all the backup from the council to which they're entitled.
00:29:51Yes, I see.
00:29:52Now, what about when you visited Mrs. Kelly?
00:29:54Was this with a view to getting her to register herself,
00:29:56or with a view to prosecution?
00:29:58Well, it was a preliminary investigation, if you like.
00:30:01But, of course, Mrs. Klein had made certain allegations which weighed against Mrs. Kelly.
00:30:06Mrs. Tilly,
00:30:07when you visited Mrs. Kelly on the 10th of August,
00:30:11you did not mention the possibility of the council taking legal action against her, did you?
00:30:15No, I did not.
00:30:15Why was this?
00:30:16Well, as I say, it was a preliminary investigation.
00:30:20Did you discuss registration with Mrs. Kelly that day?
00:30:23I asked her why she wasn't registered, yes.
00:30:25And what did she say?
00:30:26She said she hadn't realised she was supposed to be registered.
00:30:29In fact, you suggested that she should register herself, didn't you?
00:30:32No.
00:30:33Are you sure?
00:30:33Mrs. Kelly says you did.
00:30:34Quite sure.
00:30:35Mrs. Tilly,
00:30:38how many day nursery places are there in local authority nurseries in Fulchester?
00:30:43In local authority day nurseries, there's a total of 250.
00:30:48250?
00:30:49Yes.
00:30:50And how many registered minders do you have?
00:30:5341.
00:30:54And how many under fives can you place with these minders, Mrs. Tilly?
00:30:58We have 60 children presently in the care of registered minders.
00:31:01Yes.
00:31:02Which makes a total of 310 children receiving council-sponsored daycare in Fulchester.
00:31:09Yes.
00:31:10That's not many children who can be provided for in a town of 289,000 inhabitants.
00:31:15No.
00:31:16You must therefore be very grateful to find reliable minders.
00:31:19Indeed.
00:31:20Hmm.
00:31:22Mrs. Tilly, I ask you again, are you quite sure that on August the 10th you didn't say to Mrs. Kelly
00:31:26that you would send her a form for registration as a council minder?
00:31:29Quite sure.
00:31:30If Mrs. Kelly thinks I did, then she must have misunderstood me.
00:31:34Yes.
00:31:35Unless you said you would and then changed your mind.
00:31:38Oh, no, I didn't.
00:31:38I would never do that under the circumstances after the accident.
00:31:44Mrs. Tilly, when did you first meet Mrs. Klein?
00:31:48She came in to see us at the department on August the 20th.
00:31:53And what was the purpose of this visit?
00:31:54She wanted to know about Mrs. Kelly.
00:31:56Whether you were prosecuting or not?
00:31:57Yes.
00:31:58What did you tell her?
00:32:00I told her it was under review.
00:32:02Now, the Fulchester Chronicle ran this story on baby minding on Monday the 23rd of August.
00:32:08What was the date that the Social Services Department brought charges of unregistered child minding against Mrs. Kelly?
00:32:14August the 24th.
00:32:15The day after the article.
00:32:17Mrs. Tilly, the position is that until the Fulchester Chronicle publicised the Lainey Klein accident, you were quite prepared, despite the accident, to register Mrs. Kelly as a council child minder.
00:32:29I suggest you saw the accident for what it was, a truly tragic event in the life of a disobedient little girl, but an accident nevertheless.
00:32:37And it was only the adverse criticism that this case attracted to your department, which caused your about turn and your decision to take up your legal right and prosecute Mrs. Kelly in the magistrate's court.
00:32:48That is the position, is it not?
00:32:49But the newspaper article had nothing to do with any of the decisions we took.
00:32:54No further questions, Your Honourable.
00:33:04The answer I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
00:33:11Just a moment, Mr. Hudson.
00:33:14Before Mr. Hudson begins his examination, have you any explanation as to why you were not in court earlier?
00:33:22Do you have any idea how much delays of this sort cost?
00:33:28Did you know you were supposed to be here this morning?
00:33:31Yes, sir.
00:33:32Well, why weren't you? Were you ill?
00:33:34No, sir.
00:33:35What happened then?
00:33:36I don't want to be a prosecution witness.
00:33:39What do you mean you don't want to be a prosecution witness?
00:33:43I don't think Sylvia did it.
00:33:45Well, if you don't think Sylvia did it, Mrs. Williams, then it is your duty to come to this court and tell us why, on what grounds you think she didn't do it.
00:33:53You're here to tell the court what you know.
00:33:55The jury will decide on the basis of all the evidence whether or not they consider the defendant is guilty.
00:33:59Now, please, Mr. Hudson, let us continue.
00:34:01We've wasted quite enough time and public money as it is.
00:34:05Mrs. Williams, you live in the flat directly beneath that of the defendant, number 8.
00:34:08Mickelthwaite Mansions.
00:34:10Yes, sir.
00:34:11And were you at home on the day of the accident?
00:34:13Yes, sir.
00:34:15I see.
00:34:15And could you hear anything from your flat of what was going on upstairs in Mrs. Kelly's?
00:34:19I could hear children running, shouting, babies crying, that sort of thing.
00:34:25Yes, and was this a normal sort of noise to be coming from upstairs?
00:34:28Yes, sir.
00:34:29Now, Mrs. Williams, can you say whether Mrs. Kelly had her balcony door open on that morning?
00:34:35Yes, sir, all morning.
00:34:36But how could you tell?
00:34:38Well, sir, the sound care is different when it's open.
00:34:42Yes, I see.
00:34:42But are you sure that you didn't shut the door at all?
00:34:45Yes, sir.
00:34:46What were you doing that morning, Mrs. Williams?
00:34:49Oh, tidying up, washing up, ironing, things like that.
00:34:55Then after lunch, I went out on the balcony for a little rest.
00:34:58And can you tell us what happened while you were resting on the balcony?
00:35:00I saw the child came out, and I said to her, does Sylvie know you're out here?
00:35:06Oh, this is Leonie Klein you're talking about?
00:35:07Yes, sir.
00:35:08Did the child reply?
00:35:09No, sir.
00:35:10She don't say nothing.
00:35:12She pretends she don't hear me.
00:35:13So what happened next?
00:35:15I say to her, you go in.
00:35:18You're going to fall and hurt yourself.
00:35:20Did she go in?
00:35:21No, sir.
00:35:22And then what happened?
00:35:23I give a yell for Sylvie, and no one come.
00:35:26So I made to go upstairs to tell Sylvie the child out there.
00:35:30Then I heard the child scream.
00:35:32So you didn't actually see her fall?
00:35:34No, sir.
00:35:36So what did you do next?
00:35:38I looked down and see the child lying in the yard below,
00:35:41and people running, gathering around her.
00:35:45And I phoned for the ambulance.
00:35:47And then?
00:35:47And then I went to tell Sylvie what happened.
00:35:52She was just going down to the child.
00:35:54I meet her and stare.
00:35:55Did she say anything?
00:35:57Oh, she's in an awful state.
00:35:59Poor girl.
00:36:00She said, what am I going to do with the other children?
00:36:05I have to go to the hospital.
00:36:06I say to her, I'll mind them for you.
00:36:09And did you mind them for her?
00:36:10Yes, sir.
00:36:11Now, Mrs. Williams, when you went into Mrs. Kelly's flat,
00:36:14was the balcony door then open or shut?
00:36:16It was shut.
00:36:17Was it locked?
00:36:19Yes, sir.
00:36:19So shortly after the accident, when you actually saw the door,
00:36:22it was shut and locked.
00:36:24Yes, sir.
00:36:24Yet, according to you, it had been open all the time.
00:36:26Well, sir, I think Sylvie shut it when she went downstairs
00:36:29because of the little ones she was leaving upstairs.
00:36:33Yes, though, of course, it's possible that she'd shut it much earlier
00:36:36when she locked the child out.
00:36:39Now, Mrs. Williams, I want to go back to when you were sitting on your balcony.
00:36:42You see, what I don't understand is this.
00:36:43I mean, is your balcony in the same sort of dangerous condition as Mrs. Kelly's?
00:36:47Yes, sir.
00:36:47Well, how can you sit out on it then?
00:36:49Isn't that very dangerous?
00:36:50Well, sir, I don't actually sit out on it.
00:36:53I sit just inside the door with the door open.
00:36:57That way I get the breeze, sir.
00:36:59So you're not actually on the balcony itself?
00:37:01No, sir.
00:37:01So you can't actually see whether the door is open or shut?
00:37:05No, sir.
00:37:05In order to see somebody out there, you'd have had to peer out, wouldn't you?
00:37:09I heard Leone first.
00:37:11That's what made me look up.
00:37:13Oh, you heard her.
00:37:14So there you were, snoozing in your doorway,
00:37:16and you heard a sound over your head.
00:37:18Is that right?
00:37:19Yes, sir.
00:37:20So you can't really say how long Leone had been out there, can you?
00:37:22No.
00:37:23So for all you know, she might have been out there for quite some time.
00:37:27Thank you very much, Mrs. Williams.
00:37:28You've been very helpful.
00:37:29No, no, no.
00:37:31Just a moment, Mrs. Williams.
00:37:33Mrs. Kelly's counsel may like to ask you a few questions.
00:37:36Not very much, Mrs. Williams.
00:37:37I shan't keep you long.
00:37:38Now, could you at any time hear anything which was said by Mrs. Kelly to the children?
00:37:43Sometimes.
00:37:44Depends on what room she was in.
00:37:46What sort of things did you hear her say?
00:37:48Oh, I hear her say, be quiet, stop quarrelling,
00:37:51and sometimes I hear her say, come in off that balcony.
00:37:55You heard her say that, come in off the balcony?
00:37:57Yes, ma'am.
00:37:58Was she addressing a particular child when she said that?
00:38:00Yes, ma'am.
00:38:01She was shouting at Leone.
00:38:03So you actually heard Mrs. Kelly tell Leone to come in off the balcony?
00:38:07Yes, ma'am.
00:38:08What time was that?
00:38:09Oh, lots of times.
00:38:10Was it morning or afternoon?
00:38:13All the time.
00:38:14Morning, afternoon, all the time.
00:38:17Mrs. Williams, when was the last time you heard Mrs. Kelly tell Leone to come in off the balcony?
00:38:21When I was sitting out there.
00:38:23But what time was it?
00:38:24Oh, twenty to three, ten to three, something like that.
00:38:29And what time did you call the ambulance?
00:38:31Just after three o'clock.
00:38:33So far from smacking the child and locking her out on the balcony,
00:38:36Mrs. Kelly was, a few moments before the accident, telling her to come in.
00:38:39Yes, ma'am.
00:38:41Mrs. Williams, would you say that phoning for the ambulance took you long enough for Mrs. Kelly to have time to lock the door before leaving her flat?
00:38:47Yes, ma'am.
00:38:48And would you say that being occupied with the telephone, you would have been unlikely to notice the sound of a door closing upstairs?
00:38:55Quite right, ma'am.
00:38:57Mrs. Williams, did Mrs. Kelly say anything about the accident, about how it happened when you met her on the stairs?
00:39:03No, ma'am. She was only thinking how she's going to go to the hospital, what she's going to do with the other children.
00:39:09And what about when she came back? She said something about it then, didn't she?
00:39:14No, ma'am. The only thing she'd say was she never ought to look after that child.
00:39:19That child never do as she told.
00:39:21Thank you, Mrs. Williams. You've been very helpful.
00:39:27Now, Mrs. Kelly, when did you first start to mind Leonie Klein?
00:39:32Leonie would have been about three at the time.
00:39:34Did you look after her regularly?
00:39:36No.
00:39:37So what was the arrangement?
00:39:39Well, what would happen was, her mother would ask me to look after her for a week or two at a time.
00:39:44And then I wouldn't hear from her for weeks on end.
00:39:46Did you like this arrangement?
00:39:48Not really, no.
00:39:49Why not?
00:39:51Well, I never knew where I was.
00:39:53The child would just be getting used to me, and then her mother would come and take her away.
00:39:58And it was short notice, too, nearly always.
00:40:01Her mother would ask you to look after her at short notice?
00:40:03Yes.
00:40:04And she'd never bother what time she'd pick her up at the night time, either.
00:40:09And how did Leonie react when her mother was late?
00:40:11She used to cry.
00:40:13But she just had to put up with it.
00:40:14And did you tell Mrs. Klein that it upset Leonie when she was late?
00:40:18Yes.
00:40:19And what did Mrs. Klein say?
00:40:20She said that it wouldn't happen again.
00:40:22And did it?
00:40:23Yes.
00:40:24That was why I said I didn't want to look after Leonie no more.
00:40:27You told Mrs. Klein this?
00:40:29Yes.
00:40:29When did you tell her this?
00:40:31Last time I looked after Leonie.
00:40:34In May, I think it was.
00:40:36Now, apart from the fact that you feel the mother was being inconsiderate,
00:40:38were there any other reasons why you were unhappy about looking after Leonie?
00:40:42Yes.
00:40:42Can you tell us what they were?
00:40:44Well, it was just that she was getting very difficult.
00:40:48Leonie was getting very difficult?
00:40:49Yes.
00:40:50In what way?
00:40:51Well, she was one of these children that always needed attention.
00:40:56She had to be the centre of attention all the time.
00:40:59And she was a stirrer.
00:41:01Why do you think Leonie was like this?
00:41:03Well, I put it down to the way her mother treated her.
00:41:06Can you explain what you mean by that?
00:41:09Well, the child never knew where she was.
00:41:12She had no regular routine, like.
00:41:14She was always being chopped and changed about with arrangements and that.
00:41:18Yes, I see.
00:41:19Now, Mrs Kelly, you say that in May you told Mrs Klein you would no longer mind Leonie.
00:41:23Could you tell us what made you change your mind in August?
00:41:26Yes, well, what it was, Mrs Klein came round on the Friday
00:41:29and she said that it was an emergency and that she was desperate.
00:41:34So you agreed to oblige her?
00:41:36What?
00:41:37You agreed to do her a favour and mind Leonie.
00:41:40Yes.
00:41:41Why?
00:41:43Well, I don't know, really.
00:41:44She wasn't one for taking no for an answer, wasn't Mrs Klein?
00:41:48Join us again tomorrow when the Queen against Kelly will be concluded in the Crown Court.
00:42:18Yes.
00:42:22Thanks, guys.
00:43:27We rejoin the case as Sylvia Kelly tells Mrs Fenton, counsel for the defence, how she started to look after other people's children.
00:43:34I'd like to go back to how you started childminding, Mrs Kelly. What made you decide to take up childminding?
00:43:40Well, it was just after my husband left. A woman in the same buildings as me asked me if I knew of a minder.
00:43:47Just after your husband left? How long ago was that?
00:43:49He went about three years ago.
00:43:52Do you know where he is?
00:43:53No.
00:43:54Does he send you any money?
00:43:55No.
00:43:56I believe you have two very small children you have to support.
00:44:00Yes.
00:44:01How old are they?
00:44:02Well, Kevin's four and Loren's nearly three.
00:44:05I see.
00:44:06And so this neighbour of yours asked if you knew of somebody who could mind children?
00:44:10Yes.
00:44:10Was there any reason why you should have known?
00:44:12Well, it was just after the baby was born and I was looking for a minder myself.
00:44:17You were looking for a minder?
00:44:19Yes.
00:44:20Why was that?
00:44:22Well, I had to go out and get a job like.
00:44:24Oh, I see.
00:44:25And did you find a minder?
00:44:27No.
00:44:28So that was why you decided to mind this neighbour's child or children?
00:44:33Child, yes.
00:44:34I see.
00:44:36Carry on, Mrs. Ferry.
00:44:36Now, after that, you began minding other people's children as well?
00:44:39Yes.
00:44:40How did you set about that?
00:44:41Did you advertise?
00:44:42No.
00:44:43Then how did they find you?
00:44:44Well, I don't know.
00:44:46Word gets around, I suppose.
00:44:47Did you have many parents asking you to mind their children?
00:44:50Yeah, loads of them.
00:44:51Did you take them all?
00:44:52No.
00:44:53Why not?
00:44:54I am the room.
00:44:54How did you come to mind, Leonie Klein?
00:44:59Well, what it was...
00:45:01My brother-in-law used to do painting and decorating for the Clines.
00:45:06And one day, Mrs. Klein happened to say that she needed a minder.
00:45:09And he suggested me.
00:45:10And how long ago was that?
00:45:12It would be about two and a half years ago, I suppose.
00:45:15And so Leonie was coming to you on and off from that time onwards?
00:45:18Yes.
00:45:19Now, Mrs. Kelly, I want you to cast your mind back to that last Monday morning
00:45:23when Mrs. Klein brought Leonie around the day of the accident.
00:45:26What time was it?
00:45:28It was about eight o'clock.
00:45:30That's very early.
00:45:31Mrs. Klein said she had a train to catch.
00:45:34Did she tell you where she was going?
00:45:36She said she was going to the television studios in Manchester.
00:45:39Did she leave her phone number?
00:45:40No.
00:45:41Did she ever leave her phone number?
00:45:42No.
00:45:43Never?
00:45:44No.
00:45:44Did she tell you what time she would collect, Leonie?
00:45:48Yes.
00:45:48She said it would be about six o'clock, that her friend would pick Leonie up then.
00:45:54Now, do you remember a conversation with Mrs. Klein on the subject of the balcony?
00:46:00Yes.
00:46:01Could you tell us how that conversation went?
00:46:03Well, what it was, Leonie wouldn't go in the front with the other children.
00:46:08She said she didn't want to.
00:46:10And she went off in the opposite direction, towards the fire escape.
00:46:14And her mother followed her, and that was when she said she thought it wasn't very safe.
00:46:18And what did you say?
00:46:19Well, I said it got very hot with the door closed, and the children knew they had to play out there.
00:46:24And what did Mrs. Klein say?
00:46:27Well, she said she thought I ought to shut it.
00:46:29And did you?
00:46:30Yes.
00:46:31Now, after Mrs. Klein had left and gone to work, what happened then?
00:46:35Well, the children were just plain like.
00:46:37And was the balcony door open or shut?
00:46:39It was shut most of the morning.
00:46:42And then the sun came round, and it got very hot, so I opened it.
00:46:46And what did Leonie do?
00:46:48Well, she didn't notice for a long while.
00:46:50And then Mr. Klein came for his children, just after dinner.
00:46:53And that was when she noticed it was open, and she started playing up.
00:46:57Can you explain what you mean by that?
00:46:59Well, she kept sneaking along the corridor and going out there and shouting,
00:47:03it isn't dangerous for me, that sort of thing.
00:47:06And what did you do?
00:47:07Well, I brought her back in again.
00:47:08And what were the other children doing at this time?
00:47:11They were playing.
00:47:13The television was on some of the time.
00:47:16But they kept coming and telling me, you know what kids are like.
00:47:19They kept saying, Leonie says she's going to go out there again,
00:47:22or Leonie's gone out there again.
00:47:24They would come and tell you?
00:47:26Yes.
00:47:27Well, where were you?
00:47:28Well, at first I was trying to get the washing up done.
00:47:31And then I had the babies to look after, so I was in and out to them.
00:47:36But you didn't leave the flat.
00:47:38Oh, no.
00:47:39I see.
00:47:41Carry on, Mrs.
00:47:42So, the other children realised Leonie was being naughty.
00:47:45Yes.
00:47:46Did she realise, do you think?
00:47:47She realised, all right.
00:47:48She was being a right little madam.
00:47:51Now, when Leonie fell, Mrs. Kelly, could you describe the events leading up to that?
00:47:57Yes, well, I was feeding the Murphy baby at the time in the kitchen.
00:48:02And it was all quiet for a while.
00:48:05And then my Kevin comes running in and says,
00:48:07Ma'am, Leonie says she's going to go out on that balcony again.
00:48:10And what did you say?
00:48:12I said, you tell her she better not let me see her.
00:48:14And was the balcony door open or shut at this time?
00:48:17It was open.
00:48:18And then what happened?
00:48:20Well, Kevin comes in and says, Ma'am, she's gone out there.
00:48:23What did you do?
00:48:24Well, I was in the middle of changing the baby by this time.
00:48:29And I was just doing up a nappy when Kevin comes in and says, Ma'am, she's fallen.
00:48:33So, what did you do then, Mrs. Kelly?
00:48:36Well, I went out to look.
00:48:38Made sure he wasn't having me on like.
00:48:41And right, you know, she had fallen.
00:48:43She was lying down in the yard.
00:48:45So, I locked the door and I put the children in the front and I went down to her.
00:48:50You locked the door? Which door?
00:48:52The balcony door.
00:48:53Now, you locked the balcony door.
00:48:56Now, this was after Leonie had fallen and before you went down to her?
00:49:00Yes.
00:49:00Why did you do that, Mrs. Kelly?
00:49:02Well, I didn't want the other children crowding out there to see what had happened.
00:49:06They'd have all been falling off.
00:49:09Now, you then left Mrs. Selma Williams in charge of the remaining children
00:49:13and went to Fulchester Hospital with Leonie from where you managed to contact her mother?
00:49:17Yes.
00:49:18Did you see Mrs. Klein that day?
00:49:19Yes.
00:49:20Did she ask how the accident had happened?
00:49:22No.
00:49:23Did she say anything to you?
00:49:24Yes.
00:49:25She said, don't think you're going to get away with this.
00:49:28I shall sue you for everything you've got.
00:49:29Now, the next day, Mrs. Tilly of Fulchester Social Services came to see you, didn't she?
00:49:37Yes.
00:49:38Did she say anything about the council taking you before the magistrates for unregistered child minding?
00:49:43No.
00:49:44Did she say anything about registration?
00:49:46Yes.
00:49:46She said, I would have been better off registered.
00:49:50That way, I would have had the council standing by me if anything had gone wrong.
00:49:53And did you think registration was a good idea?
00:49:56Yes.
00:49:56Even though it would have meant you could have taken fewer children, therefore earned less money.
00:50:00Yes.
00:50:03Did Mrs. Tilly say anything else about registration?
00:50:06Yes.
00:50:06She said, if I wanted to be registered, she'd send me the forms.
00:50:10And did she?
00:50:12No, she never.
00:50:12Mrs. Tilly, did anyone from the Fulchester Chronicle come to see you?
00:50:18Yes.
00:50:19Do you remember when that was?
00:50:22It was on the following Friday, a week after the accident happened.
00:50:26The 20th?
00:50:27Yes.
00:50:28And what did they want to know?
00:50:30They wanted to know how many children I looked after, that sort of thing.
00:50:33They knew about the accident?
00:50:35Yes.
00:50:36Who do you think had told them?
00:50:37Well, it's obvious, isn't it?
00:50:39Mrs. Klein.
00:50:40You don't think it could have been one of your neighbours?
00:50:43No.
00:50:43If it had been them, they would have been round the week the accident happened.
00:50:46Mrs. Kelly, did you tell the man from the Fulchester Chronicle what he wanted to know?
00:50:51No.
00:50:52I told him to get lost.
00:50:54Mrs. Kelly, perhaps you could just remind the jury how many children you were looking after on the day that Leone had her accident?
00:51:10Seven.
00:51:11And what were their ages?
00:51:13Well, Leone was the oldest.
00:51:15She was just turned four.
00:51:17And then my Kevin, he was three.
00:51:20And my Lorraine was nearly two.
00:51:21They're your own children?
00:51:23That's right.
00:51:24Yes, carry on, Mrs. Kelly.
00:51:25Then the McLean boys, the oldest was the same age as Kevin, and McGregor was nine months, and I had Zenit Patel, she was three.
00:51:35And Mandy Murphy, she'd only just started, she was four months.
00:51:40I see.
00:51:41Well, now, correct me if I'm wrong, Mrs. Kelly, but by my reckoning, you had in the house that day a four-year-old, three three-year-olds, a two-year-old, and two babies.
00:51:51Now, do you really think one woman can take care of so many small children?
00:51:55Well, that was why I didn't want to look after Leone no more.
00:51:59It wasn't the only reason, Mrs. Kelly.
00:52:00You also said that you disliked the child, haven't you?
00:52:04I thought she was spoiled, yes.
00:52:06Now, this fire escape, Mrs. Kelly, had you never thought of having it repaired?
00:52:11I'd asked the landlord to do something about it, yes.
00:52:13Oh, and what did he say?
00:52:14Well, he said he'd send someone round, but he never.
00:52:18So you went on minding children regardless of the danger.
00:52:22Did it never occur to you to block the doorway with something in view of the ages of some of the children you're looking after?
00:52:27I had nothing to block it with.
00:52:29You soon found something after the accident, didn't you?
00:52:32What about insurance, Mrs. Kelly?
00:52:34When you first started minding other people's children, did you take out any form of insurance against an accident such as this one?
00:52:40No.
00:52:41Why not?
00:52:42Well, I just didn't think about it.
00:52:45That was very unwise of you, Mrs. Kelly.
00:52:47As I'm sure you've realised by now.
00:52:50Now, I want to turn to the sequence of events leading up to Leonie's fall.
00:52:55Did you shout at Leonie at all in the course of the morning?
00:52:58I might have done.
00:52:59Now, you tell my learned friend that you brought her in several times.
00:53:02Did you also strike her?
00:53:05I gave her a wallop on the backside one time I brought her in, yes.
00:53:08According to Leonie, Mrs. Kelly, it was not one wallop you administered, but several.
00:53:13No, it was a wallop, just like I've given my Kevin many a time.
00:53:16Well, that's not what Leonie says.
00:53:18However, you've admitted that you didn't much care for the child, that you shouted at her, that you manhandled her, and that you struck her, haven't you?
00:53:25Well, I suppose so, but...
00:53:26Did you also use the words, stay out there, then, to Leonie?
00:53:29No.
00:53:30Are you sure?
00:53:31Look, I never put her out.
00:53:32I told her to go and play with the other children.
00:53:34We're talking about the words, stay out there, then, Mrs. Kelly.
00:53:37Did you say them?
00:53:38No.
00:53:39Well, it's a very specific phrase for a child to have invented.
00:53:42I mean, how do you think she got a hold of this phrase?
00:53:45Well, I don't know.
00:53:47I might have said, well, let her stay out there, then, later, when Kevin comes in and says she's going to go out again.
00:53:54You might have said, stay out there, then.
00:53:57Well, let her stay out there, then, or stay out there, then, something like that.
00:54:01Mrs. Kelly, I suggest to you there's no might have said about it.
00:54:04You know very well that you did say those words.
00:54:06But I never put her out.
00:54:08I swear I wasn't locking her out.
00:54:11I was just fed up with her, that's all.
00:54:13I didn't mean any harm by it.
00:54:16I was just at the end of my tether.
00:54:17It was something to say.
00:54:19So, you disliked the child.
00:54:22You shouted at her.
00:54:23You manhandled her.
00:54:24You hit her.
00:54:25And you said the words, stay out there, then.
00:54:28Now, do you really expect the jury to believe you didn't also lock her out?
00:54:31Yes.
00:54:32You're twisting it all.
00:54:33It wasn't like that.
00:54:34Mrs. Kelly, I suggest that you are the one who is twisting it all.
00:54:37I suggest you that a child of that age does not invent complicated and incriminating stories.
00:54:41That child's capable of anything.
00:54:44Besides, her mother put her up to it.
00:54:46You wait.
00:54:46If they put me away for this, she'll be after the compensation.
00:54:53Now, Mr. Maclean, I understand you've been bringing up your two children single-handed
00:54:57since your wife left you 18 months ago.
00:54:59Now, that's right, I have.
00:55:00Has this been difficult?
00:55:01Aye, very difficult.
00:55:03What is your work, Mr. Maclean?
00:55:05I'm a child's nurse in a mental hospital.
00:55:07What hours do you work?
00:55:08Well, it's shift work with every other week and night.
00:55:11And ever since your wife left, you must have had to find somebody to look after the children
00:55:15while you were at work.
00:55:16Yes.
00:55:17Can you tell us how you set about that?
00:55:19Well, first of all, I went to see the council.
00:55:21With a view to what?
00:55:22I wanted a minder for them.
00:55:24And what did the council say?
00:55:25Well, they said that they thought it would be very difficult, what with me working shifts and that.
00:55:29Did they recommend a minder?
00:55:31No, they said they hadn't anybody could do it.
00:55:33So what did they suggest?
00:55:35Well, they said I could change my job.
00:55:37Could you?
00:55:38No.
00:55:39So what did they say then?
00:55:41They said they thought I'd better put the kiddies in care, have them fostered like.
00:55:45And what was your view of that?
00:55:46Well, I didn't want to do that.
00:55:47You wanted to keep your children with you?
00:55:49Aye.
00:55:50What did you do then?
00:55:51Well, I looked all over the place, but I couldn't find anyone to take the kiddies because of the shifts.
00:55:57And then somebody recommended Sylvia.
00:55:58And she agreed to take them?
00:56:00She did, aye.
00:56:01Despite the shift work?
00:56:02Despite the shift work.
00:56:03And were you satisfied with Mrs. Kelly as a minder?
00:56:05Oh, very satisfied, aye.
00:56:07Couldn't have wished for better.
00:56:08Now, Mr. McLean, what time did you pick up your children on the 9th of August?
00:56:12Be about two, about two o'clock.
00:56:15I was on nights that week, so what I used to do is I used to go home, have a sleep, then get up, go around and get the boys.
00:56:21Well, that way I used to see a bit of them during the day.
00:56:24And when you went into Mrs. Kelly's flat at about two o'clock, did you happen to notice whether the door to the fire escape was open or shut?
00:56:31It was open.
00:56:32You're sure about that?
00:56:33Yes.
00:56:33Did you see Leonie Klein there that day?
00:56:36Yes, I did.
00:56:37She wanted to come away with me, actually.
00:56:38She wanted to go home with you?
00:56:40Well, she said she did, anyway.
00:56:42Did she seem unhappy when she said this?
00:56:43Oh, no.
00:56:44It was like as if she just didn't like to see someone else's dad coming and hers not, if you know what I mean.
00:56:49And then when Sylvia said that she had to stay, that's when she started playing up.
00:56:53Playing up?
00:56:54Well, saying she wasn't going to stay.
00:56:55Telling Sylvia her mummy used to take her to the park in the afternoon.
00:56:58Saying she wasn't going to come to Sylvia's house again, that sort of thing.
00:57:02And then when Sylvia, when she thought Sylvia wasn't looking, she sloped off along the corridor to the balcony.
00:57:08And what did Mrs. Kelly do?
00:57:10Oh, she took it all in her stride.
00:57:11She just brought her in, told her not to do it again.
00:57:13Was Mrs. Kelly cross with Leonie?
00:57:16Well, she wasn't very pleased.
00:57:17And what happened then, Mr. McLean?
00:57:19I don't know.
00:57:20I went then.
00:57:20I wasn't there.
00:57:22Was the door still open when you left?
00:57:24Yes, it was.
00:57:26Thank you very much, Mr. McLean.
00:57:27You've been most helpful.
00:57:30I've only a couple of questions to put to you, Mr. McLean.
00:57:33Now, you said that you arrived at Mrs. Kelly's flat at about two o'clock.
00:57:37What time would you say you left?
00:57:38Oh, quarter past, twenty past two, something like that.
00:57:41Yes, and the ambulance was summoned for Leonie at four minutes past three.
00:57:45So there was over half an hour, in fact, after you left, during which she could have lost patience with Leonie,
00:57:49as, indeed, she admits that she did, and locked her out.
00:57:53I don't think she would.
00:57:56But there was half an hour after you left before the accident.
00:57:58You will agree that you can't possibly know what happened in that half hour?
00:58:01No, that's right enough.
00:58:03Now, the other matter, Mr. McLean, concerns one of your own children, the older boy, Robert.
00:58:09Aye?
00:58:10I understand he had an accident one day at Mrs. Kelly's.
00:58:13A burn, I think it was?
00:58:15Yes, he did.
00:58:16And this burn had to be treated at Fullchester Hospital?
00:58:18Yes.
00:58:19Well, how did this burn occur, Mr. McLean?
00:58:21Well, what he'd done, he'd pulled a pan down on himself.
00:58:25And you still say that you couldn't have wished for a better minder than Sylvia Kelly?
00:58:30Yes.
00:58:31Well, accidents...
00:58:32All children have accidents. It's just one of those things.
00:58:35No, Mr. McLean. It's possible to make sure that pans don't fall off stoves.
00:58:40It's just a question of taking the proper precautions.
00:58:43And precautions, I suggest, were not Mrs. Kelly's strong point.
00:58:48Thank you very much, Mr. McLean.
00:58:51You must remember that this is a very serious charge.
00:58:55The fact of the matter is that a small child has been very seriously injured.
00:58:59Now, what you are being asked to decide is not the extent to which other people are blameworthy,
00:59:06but whether or not Mrs. Kelly caused this accident,
00:59:09either by willful ill-treatment or willful neglect, or both.
00:59:14Now, if you feel sure, in view of the evidence which has been brought,
00:59:17that Mrs. Kelly deliberately locked the child out on this dangerous balcony,
00:59:22then you may ask yourselves,
00:59:24did this constitute willful ill-treatment?
00:59:27Now, if you think she did not lock the child out,
00:59:31then you must ask yourselves,
00:59:32did leaving the balcony door open constitute willful neglect?
00:59:37That is, did Mrs. Kelly leave the door open,
00:59:40knowing it to be dangerous,
00:59:42after giving the matter some thought?
00:59:45Now, if you think she did,
00:59:47then you are justified in bringing in a verdict of guilty.
00:59:51Remember that the burden of proof is on the prosecution,
00:59:56and that unless they can satisfy you,
00:59:58so that you can feel sure that the accused has committed an offence,
01:00:03you must find her not guilty.
01:00:05The prisoner will stand.
01:00:13Members of the jury, will your foreman please stand?
01:00:17Please answer this question, yes or no.
01:00:19Have you reached a verdict on which you are all agreed?
01:00:22Yes.
01:00:23On the first count, do you find the defendant, Sylvia Kelly,
01:00:26guilty or not guilty of willfully ill-treating Leonie Klein?
01:00:29Not guilty.
01:00:30On the second count, do you find the defendant, Sylvia Kelly,
01:00:34guilty or not guilty of willfully neglecting Leonie Klein?
01:00:37Guilty.
01:00:43Well, the social report I have on you
01:00:45talks about your feelings of guilt and remorse about your accident,
01:00:49and of your struggle to do your best by your own children.
01:00:54With that in mind, and because I can't help thinking
01:00:56that situations like yours arise
01:00:58because of a lack of provision of adequate child-minding facilities
01:01:02by the bodies which should be supplying them,
01:01:05namely the local authorities,
01:01:07I am going to be very merciful.
01:01:10I am not going to fine you because
01:01:12it seems to me that that would just put an extra strain
01:01:15on your already very limited resources.
01:01:19I am going to give you a conditional discharge for one year.
01:01:24You may go.
01:01:28You can join us again when our cameras return
01:01:45to bring you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:48I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:50I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:51I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:52I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:53I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:54I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:55I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:56I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:57I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:58I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:01:59I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:02:00I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:02:01I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
01:02:02I am going to give you another case in the Crown Court.
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