- 2 days ago
Annie Robertson, a socialist and benefits rights campaigner, is suing social security officer Stephen Ash for libel. Richard Wilson and Colette O'Neill star.
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00:00:00I call Mrs. Anne Robertson.
00:00:30What is your religion?
00:00:34Socialist.
00:00:36If she's an atheist, which I suppose is what she means, she may affirm.
00:00:41Read aloud the words on this card and raise your right hand.
00:00:46I do solemnly, sincerely and truly declare and affirm that the evidence I shall give shall be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
00:00:55Yes, you are, Mrs. Anne Robertson of 15 Brent Gardens, Folterstown.
00:01:01Today's leading case in the Crown Court is a civil action.
00:01:05Mrs. Annie Robertson has brought an action for libel against Stephen Ash, a social security officer working for the Department of Health and Social Security.
00:01:14She alleges that certain official reports made by Ash, which led to her social security benefits being withdrawn, were defamatory and malicious.
00:01:22The reports are said to be defamatory because in them it was stated that Mrs. Robertson was an alcoholic, mentally unstable and cohabiting with a man called Edward Rimmer.
00:01:32Yes, you have two children. What are their ages?
00:01:35Well, Janice, she's six and Roger, he's almost four.
00:01:39In 1972, did you also have a lodger?
00:01:42Lord, the exact status of Mr. Rimmer in the household is a major issue in this case, as my learned friend well knows.
00:01:48Yes, that is plainly so, Mr. Parsons.
00:01:50Yes, I'm sorry, my lord, I'll rephrase that question. In 1972, was there another member of the household?
00:01:56Yes, Ted Rimmer.
00:01:57Yes. Now, what was Mr. Rimmer's status in the household? I mean, how did you regard him?
00:02:03Well, I mean, can I use the word?
00:02:05Just answer the question, please, Mrs. Robertson.
00:02:07He was a lodger, of course.
00:02:11Yes, Mr. Parsons, having made your point, I suggest that from now on we refer to Mr. Rimmer as, um, Mr. Rimmer.
00:02:19Yes, very well, my lord. Now, uh, Mr. Rimmer paid for his accommodation, did he?
00:02:25Well, uh, that depended.
00:02:27On what?
00:02:28Well, he was in work, in the mood, I mean, whether he had any money.
00:02:33Yes, but was he supposed to pay for his accommodation, and if so, how much?
00:02:36Two pounds fifty a week.
00:02:37Yes. Now, did you have any other source of income?
00:02:40My book.
00:02:41What? Your social security book, payments made by the Department of Social Security.
00:02:47Yes, yes.
00:02:48Now, how much did that amount to?
00:02:50Thirteen seventy-five.
00:02:51Yes, so, uh, with what Mr. Rimmer gave you, and I know you say he didn't pay you every week,
00:02:56that would give you a maximum weekly income of, uh, sixteen pounds twenty-five pence.
00:03:01That's right.
00:03:02Yes.
00:03:03Now, who was the person from the Department who dealt with any queries arising out of your benefit?
00:03:09Um.
00:03:10The defendant, Mr. Ash?
00:03:11Yes.
00:03:12Yes.
00:03:13Now, would you tell the court what happened on September the 19th, 1972?
00:03:19My book was withdrawn.
00:03:20Ah.
00:03:21Yes.
00:03:22Now, how did you support yourself when you were two children after that?
00:03:26Well, I mean, Ted, he helped out for a bit.
00:03:29Yes, Mr. Rimmer.
00:03:30Yes, well, for a couple of weeks.
00:03:32Yes.
00:03:33Yes.
00:03:34And then?
00:03:35Well, then he left.
00:03:37I mean, he had a wife, an ex-wife and a kid.
00:03:39He had to pay maintenance to her, and he'd just lost his job.
00:03:42He couldn't do any more.
00:03:43Yes.
00:03:44Now, why was your book withdrawn on September the 19th?
00:03:48Because I wouldn't sleep with him.
00:03:50Oh, yes, yes, yes, Mr. Fry.
00:03:52That is what you believe.
00:03:53That is why you believe your book was withdrawn.
00:03:56Oh, yes.
00:03:57Do you realise the extreme gravity of what you are saying?
00:04:00That payments were withheld from you because you refused to have intercourse with the defendant, Stephen Ash?
00:04:05Yes, I do.
00:04:06I do.
00:04:07And the reason stated for the withdrawal of your book, what was that?
00:04:11Yeah, well, they don't put refused intercourse.
00:04:13Yes, yes.
00:04:14Just answer my question.
00:04:15Cohabitation.
00:04:18Mr. Parson?
00:04:19Yes, cohabiting with Mr. Rimmer?
00:04:20Yes.
00:04:21And were you living together as man and wife?
00:04:23No.
00:04:24I mean, I was ridiculous.
00:04:26I met Ted Rimmer at a New Year's party in 1970.
00:04:32I was still living with my husband then.
00:04:34What happened to your husband?
00:04:36Oh, he went off with somebody.
00:04:37He just vanished.
00:04:38When was that?
00:04:40Er, that'd be the middle of 1970, about June, yeah.
00:04:44I was five months pregnant with Roger at the time.
00:04:47Yes, sir.
00:04:48Roger is your husband's child?
00:04:49Of course he is.
00:04:51Yes.
00:04:52Did you have intercourse with Mr. Rimmer?
00:04:58Yeah.
00:04:59When was the first time?
00:05:00Er, by the end of 1970, at a Christmas party.
00:05:05That was a year after I'd first met him.
00:05:08Yes.
00:05:09And after that, shall we say, er, did you even affair with him?
00:05:13See, I mean, it's difficult to make you straight people understand.
00:05:17Straight?
00:05:19Er, yes.
00:05:20Yes.
00:05:21My lord, I believe by straight my client means more or less conventional people like myself.
00:05:26And possibly your lordship.
00:05:29Ah.
00:05:30What is it that's so difficult for us to understand?
00:05:33I'll tell you.
00:05:34See, I've had my session with one man till death as do part.
00:05:38Thank you very much.
00:05:39I'm on my own now.
00:05:40I support my two kids.
00:05:42I haven't got a fella and I don't want one.
00:05:45See, Ted there, he's the same.
00:05:47He doesn't want a woman, he's a Roma.
00:05:50We don't fit into any kind of slot.
00:05:52Now, you may not like that, but it's just the way it is.
00:05:56Yeah.
00:05:57Well, when Ted lost his digs at the end of 1971, he crashed in my place for a few days.
00:06:03And then he said, I mean, why should he pay for digs when he could pay me, how about it?
00:06:08He only needed a dos down.
00:06:10Look, he was scarcely never there most of the time.
00:06:15To say that we were living as man and wife, I mean, it's something that only he could have thought up.
00:06:21Yes.
00:06:22Now, do you remember the events of September the 15th, 1972?
00:06:27Yes, I do.
00:06:28Yes.
00:06:29Now, will you please tell the court what happened?
00:06:34Well, it was a bit tea time.
00:06:38Just about six o'clock.
00:06:40Janice, she was out playing...
00:06:42Well, she was next door.
00:06:43And Roger, he was...
00:06:45He was just two then.
00:06:47He'd been in bed all day with a bad cough.
00:06:50See, people don't realise.
00:06:52Those houses are so rotten with damage, your child's whole future can be...
00:06:55Just try and keep to the events of that evening, please.
00:06:59Yeah.
00:07:00Yeah, well...
00:07:03I thought that I was going down with the same bug as Roger, you see.
00:07:06So, I went in to get undressed to go to bed for a bit and...
00:07:11And then the doorbell went and I put on my dressing gown and...
00:07:16And it was him.
00:07:17Uh, Stephen Ash.
00:07:18Yes.
00:07:19Were you expecting him?
00:07:20Of course I wasn't expecting him.
00:07:23I mean, you received no communication to the effect that he was going to pay you a visit.
00:07:27Communication?
00:07:28Listen, they come when it bloody suits them.
00:07:32Yeah, well...
00:07:33Er...
00:07:34I mean, he came in and he started abusing me.
00:07:38He started straight into me.
00:07:41He said, who did I think I was trying to con?
00:07:43He wasn't blind.
00:07:44He knew that Ted had moved into my room and unless I gave him what he wanted, he would see a man...
00:07:48Just a moment, just a moment.
00:07:49Are those the actual words he used?
00:07:51What?
00:07:52Unless you give me what I want.
00:07:53Did he actually say that?
00:07:54No, no.
00:07:55But that was what he meant.
00:07:56See, he always went round the houses.
00:07:57Yes, well, Mr Dobbs, if you'd just tell us what he said.
00:08:00He said, er...
00:08:03Leave him or you'll lose your benefit.
00:08:05He said that?
00:08:06Yes, yes.
00:08:07Yes, thank you.
00:08:08Did he even want us to set up house together?
00:08:09What, in so many words?
00:08:10No, no, love, that wasn't his ways.
00:08:12He hinted, you know, nudge, nudge.
00:08:14I've had some heavy passes in my time, but...
00:08:17Yes.
00:08:18Now, what did you say to all this?
00:08:21Go away.
00:08:23Were those the actual words...
00:08:24Words I used, no piss off.
00:08:26Yes, and did he, er...
00:08:28Go?
00:08:31No.
00:08:34He followed me about.
00:08:37He went all peculiar.
00:08:39All sort of worked up.
00:08:41I'd never seen him like that before.
00:08:45He kept saying,
00:08:47They'll cut off your benefit like that.
00:08:51You understand that?
00:08:52They'll cut it off.
00:08:54Long as you understand that.
00:08:57I mean, I just...
00:08:59You know, I shut off.
00:09:00You stop hearing.
00:09:02I felt bloody awful and...
00:09:05I said to him,
00:09:06Look, you can do what you like, but I'm going to my bed.
00:09:10Well, I went into the bedroom and I started taking off my dressing gown and...
00:09:15Well, the next thing I know, he's all over me.
00:09:17What exactly did he do to you?
00:09:19Well, he...
00:09:20I mean, he just kind of mauled me about.
00:09:23Where?
00:09:25Yes.
00:09:26Your breasts.
00:09:27Yes, yes.
00:09:28He was like a maniac.
00:09:29And then...
00:09:30Then a flat door went and...
00:09:31Then...
00:09:32Mr Rimmer.
00:09:33Yes, he...
00:09:34He threw him out the flat.
00:09:35Yes.
00:09:36Now, why didn't you go to the police?
00:09:42Your what?
00:09:43The police.
00:09:44Why didn't you go to the police?
00:09:45Yes.
00:09:46Just answer council's questions.
00:09:47Our word against him?
00:09:48Who do you think they're going to believe?
00:09:51Listen.
00:09:52If you're on your own with two kids, all the SS think you must be dying for it, an easy lay.
00:09:58And the police are the same as the SS.
00:10:00It's fascist.
00:10:01The whole law of them.
00:10:02Yeah, they're right.
00:10:03Silence, silence.
00:10:09Mrs Roberts.
00:10:10If you have these feelings about the police, and about the impossibility of a court preferring
00:10:16your story to Mr Ash's, why are you going through this whole process now?
00:10:21Because we found evidence.
00:10:23On paper.
00:10:24Yes, my lord.
00:10:25In the agreed bundle of documents, page four.
00:10:30Now, do you recognise the document on page four there?
00:10:35Yes.
00:10:36Now, when did you first see it?
00:10:39On the 19th of April, 1973, at the DHSS in Rayburn Road.
00:10:46The clerk had left it in the table.
00:10:49Yes.
00:10:50I couldn't believe it.
00:10:53I mean, it's unbelievable.
00:10:56And then?
00:10:57I just picked it up and walked out.
00:10:59Yes.
00:11:00Now, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, you will see that the document on page four is
00:11:06in fact a copy of Mrs Robertson's DHSS form, A6M.
00:11:13And you will notice in section nine that there is a cross marked against the important features
00:11:22relating to the claimant in the box marked Mental Health Doubtful.
00:11:26Now, Mrs Robertson, has your mental fitness ever been in any doubt?
00:11:31No.
00:11:32Now, you will also notice, members of the jury, that in part two of section nine, under other important features, it states,
00:11:43are mentally unstable, a manic depressive sort of person with violent mood changes.
00:11:49Now, Mrs Robertson, has, have you ever been seen by or treated by a psychiatrist?
00:11:56No.
00:11:57Has any doctor or medical authority ever suggested you should see a psychiatrist?
00:12:00No.
00:12:01No.
00:12:02Has anyone ever suggested you should see a psychiatrist?
00:12:04Only him.
00:12:05The defendant?
00:12:06Yeah.
00:12:07He's the one who should see a psychiatrist.
00:12:10Yes, yes, yes.
00:12:12Now, it also says she can manage home and children well at times, but problems arise due to her being
00:12:23well on the way to becoming an alcoholic, is violent and unreliable.
00:12:28Now, Mrs Robertson, are you well on the way to becoming an alcoholic?
00:12:32No.
00:12:33But you do drink on occasions.
00:12:35Yeah, I mean, I take a drink, but not like that.
00:12:39Yes.
00:12:40Now, would you read the words which have been underlined in the recommendation for action
00:12:45which Mr Ash sent to his superior officer?
00:12:49Cohabitation.
00:12:51Suspicion's now confirmed.
00:12:54A foresaid E. Rimmer has sex with this woman.
00:12:57This is not denied.
00:12:59There is a common meal table and bedroom.
00:13:02Claimant at one time admitted that one of her two children, Roger, was Rimmer's child.
00:13:08Subsequently retracted this.
00:13:11Claimant cautioned, became violent, both physical and verbal.
00:13:16Refused to make statement, although strongly advised to do so.
00:13:20Yes.
00:13:21Now, Mrs Robertson, the evening when you say that Mr Ash indecently assaulted you, what date was that?
00:13:27September the 15th, 1972.
00:13:29Yes.
00:13:30Now, members of the jury, as you will see, the date on this report recommending the withdrawal of Mrs Robertson's Social Security card was just three days later.
00:13:40September the 18th, 1972.
00:13:43You believe in militancy, do you, Mrs Robertson?
00:13:49I believe in fighting for what's right, yes.
00:13:50Well, let's have a look at a fight you had on the 12th of August, 1972.
00:14:02You were at the Rayburn Road DHSS office on that day, weren't you?
00:14:07Well, I don't know.
00:14:20Then let me refresh your memory.
00:14:22You were arguing on behalf of a Mrs Violet Lambert for a special clothing allowance for her daughter Cheren.
00:14:29In the course of that argument, you threw a shoe through the office window, didn't you?
00:14:32No.
00:14:33A window was broken, wasn't it?
00:14:35Yes.
00:14:36A shoe?
00:14:37A kid's shoe, yes.
00:14:38Well, perhaps you'd care to tell us your version of what happened?
00:14:41Yes.
00:14:42They wouldn't give her the clothing allowance.
00:14:45See, they said she'd got shoes.
00:14:47She had holes with cardboard round them.
00:14:51I was pointing that out to the clerk when a manager came through, so I passed the shoe to him.
00:14:57And he missed it.
00:14:59That's right.
00:15:02How much do you drink?
00:15:04What?
00:15:05That's a simple question, isn't it?
00:15:09Average?
00:15:10Lord, I'd like to introduce an exhibit which is pertinent at this particular point.
00:15:13Indeed.
00:15:16Would you look at this, please?
00:15:20Do you recognise it?
00:15:21It's a bill, isn't it?
00:15:23From the Fouchester Carafe Wine Company Limited.
00:15:26This is a mail order company, my lord, supplying the cheaper varieties of vin ordinaire.
00:15:30Long?
00:15:31Yes, my lord.
00:15:32Now, this is quite clearly for deliveries in August and September of 1972, to you, at your address, the total sum being 45 pounds and 70 pence.
00:15:41Yes.
00:15:42Did you take those deliveries?
00:15:44I don't know.
00:15:45I...
00:15:46Did you or did you not?
00:15:49Yes.
00:15:50For your own consumption?
00:15:52Yeah, well, there's always a lot of people in and out the house.
00:15:54No doubt.
00:15:55Who paid the bill?
00:15:57Mrs Robertson, a five pound a week wine bill would be somewhat beyond the means of a woman living on Social Security, wouldn't it?
00:16:04Wouldn't it?
00:16:05Who paid it?
00:16:07I don't remember.
00:16:09You don't remember?
00:16:10Oh, come on, Mrs Robertson.
00:16:13Oh, well, let's see if you can remember something else.
00:16:15Would you look at this photograph, please?
00:16:18This is number 10 in the agreed bundle, my lord.
00:16:21Yes.
00:16:23Now, that's you with Mr Rimmer, who is holding the baby.
00:16:27Yes.
00:16:28A family group.
00:16:29It looks like a family group, doesn't it?
00:16:31So what does that prove?
00:16:33We're human beings.
00:16:34That was a happy afternoon.
00:16:37Now, you say you first met Mr Rimmer at a party and then slept with him after another party a year later.
00:16:43Yes.
00:16:44Now, from January 1970, when you first met him, to June of that year is five, six months.
00:16:49And in June of that year, you were five months pregnant, weren't you?
00:16:54Yes, but...
00:16:55Now, just a moment.
00:16:56If you had slept with Rimmer when you first met him, it would have been possible for you to be pregnant by him in June, wouldn't it?
00:17:01Possible, but as I didn't...
00:17:02Mrs Robertson, we've seen that you haven't got the best of memories.
00:17:04Is it possible that your memory has got these two parties confused?
00:17:07You mean I slept with him in the January and didn't meet him until the following Christmas?
00:17:12It wouldn't be surprising in your sort of society, would it?
00:17:14Oh, dear me.
00:17:15I beg your pardon.
00:17:16I should not have said that.
00:17:19Whenever the date when you first slept with Rimmer, the relationship developed into a much closer one, didn't it?
00:17:24Rubbish.
00:17:25To the extent that he was paying some of your bills.
00:17:29Listen, that's a load of...
00:17:32That was his bill, you don't understand.
00:17:35Indeed I don't.
00:17:36It's got your name on it.
00:17:37Surely you're not trying to deny that.
00:17:38If he was supporting your drinking to this extent, what else was he paying for?
00:17:41Was your social security benefit a nice little bonus, extra pocket money?
00:17:44You've got no right to say that.
00:17:46I have every right to put that question to you, Mrs Robertson, just as Mr Ash had every right to protect public money.
00:17:51Ted!
00:17:52Mr...
00:17:54Yes?
00:17:56Yeah, well, it's confused. It was two years ago.
00:17:59What happened on the 15th of September 1972 that's not confused?
00:18:04When something like that happens to you, you do remember it.
00:18:07Well, let's see, shall we?
00:18:09I'm obliged to my learned friend who's gone to a great deal of trouble to separate the meanings you read into your interview with Mr Ash
00:18:15from the words you actually quote him as using.
00:18:18They're very simple in number.
00:18:20Leave him or you'll lose your benefit.
00:18:23Leave him or you'll lose your benefit.
00:18:26Are they not the very words he should have used?
00:18:28They'll cut off your benefit like that, as long as you understand that.
00:18:32Now, Mrs Robertson, if Mr Ash thought that you were cohabiting with Mr Rimmer, was it not his duty to give you that warning?
00:18:38Yes, but it was the way...
00:18:39Thank you, thank you.
00:18:40No, it was the way he said that...
00:18:41You thought there was something about his tone of voice that indicated that his motivation was personal rather than professional?
00:18:47Yes.
00:18:48That's your interpretation, Mrs Robertson.
00:18:51Now, let's see if we can take this memory of yours back to the point where you'd entered the bedroom.
00:18:56You started taking off your dressing gown.
00:18:58Yes.
00:18:59Before Mr Ash came into the room.
00:19:00Yes.
00:19:01Why was that?
00:19:02I was ill.
00:19:03I was going to bed.
00:19:04Indeed.
00:19:05In the course of taking off your dressing gown, did you say,
00:19:08Well, come on.
00:19:09Come and get it if you want it.
00:19:11Oh!
00:19:12Mrs Robertson, I would remind you that you are on oath.
00:19:13Did you or did you not use those words?
00:19:15Not those words, no.
00:19:16Words like them.
00:19:17Words like them.
00:19:18That was a joke!
00:19:20His face was...
00:19:21So you did use them?
00:19:23And are you seriously asking the jury to believe that you were joking?
00:19:26Yeah, but I never thought that he would...
00:19:28I couldn't get rid of him.
00:19:32I just couldn't get him out of the flat.
00:19:34He was round me like a fly, don't you understand?
00:19:37I think I understand very well, Mrs Robertson.
00:19:39You knew that Mr Ash was coming that evening, didn't you?
00:19:41No, I honestly didn't.
00:19:42And you knew what he was going to say, didn't you?
00:19:44No, no, look, you can't say that.
00:19:45I didn't know he was coming and I didn't give him the come on.
00:19:48I didn't.
00:19:49I knew it was the one way to get rid of him.
00:19:51He's frightened of sakes.
00:19:53And are you telling us that a man who was frightened of sex
00:19:58committed a sexual assault on you?
00:20:02It's all very confused and contradictory, isn't it, Mrs Robertson?
00:20:06The product of a confused and contradictory mind, Mrs Robertson.
00:20:09I have no more questions, my lord.
00:20:11No, Mrs Robertson, were you aware you were not assaulted
00:20:14in the evening of the 15th of September, 1972, by Mr Ash, as you've described?
00:20:19I was!
00:20:20Now, this joke, this remark you made, it was made in a frivolous manner
00:20:25in order to shock him away. Is that what you were trying to tell us?
00:20:27I was just so fed up with him.
00:20:29Yes, but it didn't have the desired effect.
00:20:31No, he just came at me.
00:20:33Now, one moment, one moment.
00:20:35Where were you standing in relation to him? Were you facing him at all?
00:20:38No, no, I was partly turned away and had my arms half in and half.
00:20:43You see, that's why I couldn't do anything about it for a minute.
00:20:47I was all tangled up in that bloody gown!
00:20:51I have no further questions, my lord.
00:20:52You may leave the witness box, Mrs Robertson.
00:20:55I call Edward Rimmer.
00:21:04You are Edward Winston Rimmer of 18 Canalside, Foutister.
00:21:08Yes.
00:21:09Now, where were you living in August and September, 1972?
00:21:13The Big Annie's. Mrs Robertson.
00:21:16Yes.
00:21:17What was your relationship?
00:21:19I lodged there.
00:21:20I was there on and off for a couple of years, 1971 and 2.
00:21:24Mostly off because I move about a lot, you see.
00:21:27But once the SS see a pair of trousers, well, they jump on you
00:21:31just to save themselves a few lousy quid a week.
00:21:34That's what it was all about.
00:21:36Yes. Now, by the SS, you mean the Department of Social Security?
00:21:39Yes.
00:21:40Yes.
00:21:41Now, you have, in fact, got a wife in Liverpool to whom you pay maintenance benefit.
00:21:45Ex-wife.
00:21:46Oh, yes. I'm sorry.
00:21:47What accommodation do you have with Mrs Robertson?
00:21:51A little corner.
00:21:52A put-you-up thing in the living room.
00:21:56Ted's Corner, the kids called it.
00:21:57Yes. And do you pay for this?
00:21:59Well, yes. £2.50.
00:22:01And do you pay for anything else?
00:22:02How do you mean?
00:22:04Well, I mean, for example, this bill from the Fulster Carafe Wine Company.
00:22:09Every bottle of that was paid for.
00:22:12Well, yes, but that wasn't the question.
00:22:14Do you mean there was some doubt as to whether it was paid for at all?
00:22:18No, but you see, I...
00:22:20Did you or did you not pay for this wine?
00:22:24Yes, Your Honour. Your Lordship.
00:22:27And you bought it from Mrs Robertson?
00:22:30Yeah.
00:22:32Now, did you provide any other form of financial support?
00:22:36No, no, no, no. Well, er...
00:22:38Presents, you know.
00:22:39Presents?
00:22:40Yeah, like clothes for the kids.
00:22:41You see, I mean, I didn't want people to think that I...
00:22:43You're bloody a liar! You never did!
00:22:45I did!
00:22:46I did, love!
00:22:47Mrs Robertson.
00:22:50I will not tolerate any interruption of these proceedings.
00:22:53If you try to talk to the witness again, I'll have you removed.
00:22:56I mean, we weren't cohabitating.
00:22:59That's a daft suggestion.
00:23:01But I didn't want to give people the impression that I would let the...
00:23:03Yes, sir.
00:23:04If you'll just confine yourself to answering my questions, please.
00:23:08Now, er, September the 15th, 1972.
00:23:11What time did you get back to, er, 15 Grey Gardens that evening?
00:23:15Half past six about.
00:23:16Yes, and what happened when you entered the flat?
00:23:18They were fighting in the bedroom.
00:23:20Did you actually see them fighting?
00:23:22She told me that he'd come...
00:23:24Mr Miller, if you'd just tell us what you saw.
00:23:27Well, it was obvious what he'd been up to.
00:23:29Did you actually see any of it yourself?
00:23:31Did you actually see the defendant's hands on her?
00:23:34Well, er...
00:23:36No, not...
00:23:37...exactly on her, but...
00:23:39...only just off her.
00:23:41I see.
00:23:45Her nightdress was torn, ripped!
00:23:47Ripped right down the middle!
00:24:04The case of Robertson versus Ash will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:24:25The End
00:24:26The End
00:24:27The End
00:24:28The End
00:24:29The End
00:24:30The End
00:24:33The End
00:24:35The End
00:24:52Yes, I see. Thank you.
00:25:06Mr Brimmer, I believe you describe yourself as a freelance road haulier.
00:25:13Yeah.
00:25:14But you were an employee for a time in 1972.
00:25:18Was I?
00:25:20Weren't you?
00:25:21The Fulster Warehouse Group.
00:25:23Oh, yeah.
00:25:24Yes, one of whose subsidiaries is the Fulster Carafe Wine Company,
00:25:27who dismissed you from their employee.
00:25:29That's not true. I left.
00:25:31Any road, what the hell's that got to do with this case?
00:25:33Mr Brimmer!
00:25:34Mr Parsons, I think you would help us if you could explain the relevance of this line of questioning.
00:25:38My lovely friend has sought to establish from this invoice of the Fulster Carafe Wine Company
00:25:43some proof of both my client's capacity for alcohol and Mr Rimmer's financial support.
00:25:49Yes.
00:25:50However, it will be seen in closer inspection that this is, in fact, a combined invoice delivery note.
00:25:57Now, I understand from certain sources that by a manipulation of the carbon copy and the documentation,
00:26:03one load of wine may be drawn from the warehouse and a smaller amount invoiced.
00:26:08Look here, you can't accuse me of...
00:26:10Be quiet, Mr Rimmer!
00:26:11I shan't warn you again.
00:26:13With respect, my lord, whatever the rights or wrongs of this, Mr Rimmer is not on trial today.
00:26:17Yes.
00:26:18What are you trying to establish from this witness?
00:26:20Well, whether the wine they delivered to her address was, in fact, for Mrs Robertson
00:26:24or whether it was for redistribution.
00:26:27Yes, I think it would be helpful to know that, but your client did not give that explanation.
00:26:32Oh, that is true, my lord. I can recall her if you desire.
00:26:34Oh, no. Let's get on.
00:26:36Yes, thank you, my lord.
00:26:37Now, was the wine for Mrs Robertson?
00:26:39Some of it was.
00:26:40Yes, how much?
00:26:41I got a special discount. It was all above board.
00:26:44What was?
00:26:45Reselling it.
00:26:47Yes.
00:26:48Thank you, Mr Rimmer. No further questions, madam.
00:26:52Some of the wine was for Mrs Robertson.
00:26:54Yeah.
00:26:55There were always plenty of crates in the flat.
00:26:57Well, sometimes, yeah.
00:26:59She could help herself when she wanted to.
00:27:01She could, yeah.
00:27:02But, I mean, that doesn't make her an alcoholic.
00:27:05No.
00:27:06Now, Mr Rimmer, you paid £2.50 a week rent in August and September of 1972 for your corner.
00:27:15Yeah.
00:27:16Did you have a rent book?
00:27:17No.
00:27:18No?
00:27:19No. Well, what do you think she was, a landlady?
00:27:20Wasn't she?
00:27:21Mr Rimmer?
00:27:23Oh, well, yeah, but, well, what I mean to say is, well, you know what I mean.
00:27:29I don't know what you mean, Mr Rimmer.
00:27:32Well, you see, we weren't, you know, formal like that, not formal.
00:27:37No, you weren't formal like that.
00:27:39No, in fact, you were very informal indeed.
00:27:41Intimate, weren't you?
00:27:42Well, you hear her say that.
00:27:43No mind what she said, you were intimate with her.
00:27:46On and off, yeah.
00:27:47And how often would on and off be?
00:27:49Yeah, look, this is going a bit far, innit?
00:27:52I come here in the interest of justice and he start...
00:27:55Do I have to answer that?
00:27:56I'm afraid you do, Mr Rimmer.
00:27:59Once a week.
00:28:01Well, suddenly you sound very positive.
00:28:03Fridays.
00:28:04Being usually away in the middle of the week would be a case of back home, down the boozer,
00:28:08and once a week.
00:28:09Fridays.
00:28:10September the 15th, 1972 was a Friday, wasn't it?
00:28:13Uh, yeah, yeah, it was.
00:28:15But you didn't go to the boozer that evening, did you?
00:28:18Ah.
00:28:19She was very ill.
00:28:20Very ill that evening.
00:28:21Was she?
00:28:22Raging temperature.
00:28:23Did you measure it?
00:28:24Eh?
00:28:25Well, well, no.
00:28:27I mean, she was hot, you know, feverish.
00:28:29Particularly after he'd stuck his...
00:28:31Did you call a doctor?
00:28:32No.
00:28:33When she was so ill?
00:28:36Mr Rimmer, are you the kind of man who, when he's walked up a hill,
00:28:39describes it in the boozer afterwards as climbing a mountain?
00:28:43What's all that mean?
00:28:45You're not a lorry driver, you have to be a freelance road haulier.
00:28:49I am.
00:28:50You're the kind of man who only has to see two people arguing in a bedroom
00:28:53to find the woman's nightdress suddenly dramatically ripped from top to bottom.
00:28:57The only trouble being that the ripping occurred afterwards in your vivid imagination.
00:29:01I can see it.
00:29:02I can see it now.
00:29:03Yes, I know you can see it now, but did you see it then?
00:29:07What colour was it?
00:29:09I...
00:29:10I understand.
00:29:11You can see the tear, but not the material that was torn.
00:29:16Now, Mr Rimmer, your rent.
00:29:18£2.50 isn't a very large weekly rent for one room, is it?
00:29:22Part of a room.
00:29:23Oh, Ted's corner, yes.
00:29:24I'm sorry, I forgot.
00:29:25But you had use of the flat.
00:29:27You would, yeah.
00:29:28But when you say use of the flat, of course I use the lavatory.
00:29:30The bathroom.
00:29:31Yeah.
00:29:32Sometimes.
00:29:33The bedroom.
00:29:34Mrs Robertson's bedroom.
00:29:35At least you said on Fridays.
00:29:36Fridays, yeah, but half the time I wasn't there.
00:29:37It was a bargain, wasn't it, at £2.50?
00:29:42Mr Rimmer, you're a generous man.
00:29:44Eh?
00:29:45Are you a generous man?
00:29:48Well, I suppose it's the next man.
00:29:50Yeah.
00:29:51You wouldn't see two children go without.
00:29:53Well, no.
00:29:54You bought presents for them, you say?
00:29:56Just odd things.
00:29:57A coat.
00:29:58You know, nothing regular.
00:30:00I mean, that's not support.
00:30:01Any human being wouldn't let...
00:30:02How much a week would that amount to?
00:30:04Well, you don't add things like that up.
00:30:07You just stick your hand in your pocket.
00:30:08You don't add things up like that.
00:30:10Oh, no.
00:30:12Eh?
00:30:13Eating arrangements.
00:30:14Where did you eat?
00:30:15In the kitchen.
00:30:16With the family?
00:30:17When I was there.
00:30:18It was the only place to eat.
00:30:19And the food you ate, did that come out of the £2.50?
00:30:21Look, are you trying to make out I took the bread out of their mouths?
00:30:24I paid my whack.
00:30:25But what exactly was your whack, Mr Rimmer?
00:30:28You wouldn't know if what you were eating came out of your own money
00:30:30or out of the Social Security benefit, would you?
00:30:32Because it was all so intermingled, wasn't it?
00:30:34As things must be in a family unit, is that not right?
00:30:39You told me you had no rent book.
00:30:40I didn't.
00:30:41Is that, in fact, because there was no rent?
00:30:43Because your relationship was much deeper than that of landlady and tenant,
00:30:46much more nearly that of husband and wife.
00:30:48That's rubbish.
00:30:49Yes, you eat at the same table, you share expenses, you share the same bed,
00:30:53at least on Fridays, you've said.
00:30:54But you can appreciate, can you not, that an observer might well think
00:30:57that you were living together as man and wife.
00:30:59And you can appreciate that if you seem to be enjoying the benefits
00:31:02and comforts of a common home, it would be reasonable of that observer
00:31:05to think that you should support that home and not draw money from the state.
00:31:09I don't know what a reasonable observer would think.
00:31:12That's very obvious.
00:31:14How many bloody women are you expecting me to support?
00:31:17I wasn't there half the time, three quarters.
00:31:20I keep trying to tell you there's my ex-wife, there's the maintenance on her and the kid,
00:31:23there's London.
00:31:27Go on, Mr. Rimmer.
00:31:32Well, I had a similar little corner in London, you see.
00:31:39Another corner?
00:31:41Yeah.
00:31:42Well, when you're on the lorries, you're half the time in one place, half the time in another.
00:31:48Stands to reason that you're...
00:31:50What do you expect a man to do?
00:31:52Cohabitation and all the rest of that rhubarb.
00:31:56Annie was my weekend. We're good friends.
00:31:59Good friends. I keep trying to tell you I was away more often than I was there.
00:32:04He knew that.
00:32:05He just wanted to get me out.
00:32:07There was only one reason why he wrote that report.
00:32:09I'm no more precious than I...
00:32:12I have no reexamination, my lord.
00:32:14You may leave the witness box.
00:32:16Thank you, my lord.
00:32:17Thank you, Mr. Rimmer.
00:32:19There concludes the case for the plaintiff, my lord.
00:32:42Lord, one of my witnesses, Mr. Summers, has an agent engagement elsewhere.
00:32:45And with your permission, I'd like to call him before my client.
00:32:48Mr. Parsons.
00:32:50Um...
00:32:52I have no objections, my lord.
00:32:56You are Malcolm Gerald Summers of Palace Terrace, Fulchester?
00:33:00I am.
00:33:01You are the manager of the Department of Health and Social Security office in Rayburn Road, Fulchester?
00:33:06Yes.
00:33:07As his superior, how did you regard Mr. Ash's work?
00:33:10Very highly.
00:33:11You had confidence in his judgement when he filed a social...
00:33:14When he filed a cohabitation report on Mrs. Robertson on the 18th of September 1972?
00:33:20Absolutely.
00:33:22The report didn't surprise me in the least.
00:33:24Big Annie, Mrs. Robertson, was well known to us.
00:33:27She had always tended to flout her relationship with Rimmer.
00:33:30And what exactly do you mean by flout, Mr. Summers?
00:33:34Well, my lord, for instance, once she came to Rayburn Road...
00:33:36Where?
00:33:37Oh, in the summer of 1972.
00:33:40I'm sorry, I can't be more precise.
00:33:43She was appealing on behalf of some woman who had her book removed for cohabitation.
00:33:48She was always appealing on behalf of someone or other.
00:33:51And she said...
00:33:53To you?
00:33:54Yes, my lord.
00:33:55Hmm?
00:33:56She said, why don't you pick on someone your own size?
00:33:59Because you daren't, dare you?
00:34:01Why did you take that to me?
00:34:03It seemed to me, my lord, that she was throwing down the gauntlet.
00:34:06There were other claimants there.
00:34:08And I got the impression she was saying...
00:34:10If you make enough noise, the DHSS daren't take your book away.
00:34:14That was your impression?
00:34:15Yes.
00:34:16I suppose it's a possible interpretation, yes, Mr.
00:34:19I'm obliged, my lord.
00:34:20Is there any truth in that, Mr. Summers, that if you make enough noise, the DHSS doesn't take action?
00:34:26We decide each case on the facts.
00:34:29And the facts alone.
00:34:31Did Mr. Ash's report strike you as in any way unusual?
00:34:35Well, it was a little forceful, perhaps, but no, I wouldn't describe it as being unusual.
00:34:40On the way to being an alcoholic?
00:34:41That sort of statement is not unfamiliar in this sort of report, unfortunately.
00:34:47Mentally unstable, a manic depressive sort of person with violent mood changes.
00:34:52Well, that is rather strongly expressed, perhaps, but I wouldn't say it was untrue.
00:34:57You see, we have to make assessments, not only on people's needs, but also on what sort of people they are.
00:35:04Now, unfortunately, some people are unstable, they do lie, they do claim money illegally,
00:35:09but this is public money.
00:35:11It is our duty to see that this money is rightfully disposed of.
00:35:14Your duty, yes.
00:35:15And it was Mr. Ash's duty to submit this report to you.
00:35:19Indeed it was.
00:35:23Mr. Summers, are you aware that the Social Security Act 1966 does not define cohabitation?
00:35:30Of course.
00:35:31So the decision as to whether a man and woman are living together as husband and wife is largely at your discretion?
00:35:38No, of course it isn't.
00:35:39No?
00:35:40When there's nothing laid down?
00:35:41There are plenty of precedents.
00:35:43Precedents?
00:35:44The Supplementary Benefits Commission has laid down certain guidelines.
00:35:50Now, living together becomes cohabitation when a certain number of factors accumulate.
00:35:56Is there a common home?
00:35:58How long has the partnership lasted?
00:36:00Is there a child by it?
00:36:02Do they share the same bedroom, the same meal table, or the same name?
00:36:06Yes, however, if we look at the supplementary benefits...
00:36:09Not fascinating though this technical exploration may be, is it germane to the case?
00:36:15How is it germane, Mr. Parsons?
00:36:17Oh, my lord, Mr. Summers has laid great stress on the normality of the defendant's report,
00:36:23giving me impression it's the sort of thing that happens every day,
00:36:26whereas it is part of my client's case that a normal report may be defamatory.
00:36:31My client can't be held responsible for that.
00:36:32Are you trying to assert that the system itself is on trial here?
00:36:36No, my lord, but I'm most concerned that the jury shouldn't think it beyond criticism.
00:36:40There's a great deal of well-informed opinion in this country
00:36:43that believes that the cohabitation rule is bad and unworkable,
00:36:47a fact that I believe that this case stresses.
00:36:50My lord, there are wide social and political issues here which are not the concern of this court,
00:36:53and in any case these reports are privileged.
00:36:55Yes, I quite agree. I can't allow you to take this any further.
00:36:57This is not a forum for public debate.
00:37:02For Lordship, please.
00:37:07Now, Mr. Summers, you weren't surprised when you read Mr. Ash's report?
00:37:11No, no, I wasn't.
00:37:12No, it confirmed what you already thought.
00:37:15Well, yes.
00:37:16So you accepted it without question.
00:37:19I question everything.
00:37:21Of course, of course. If that's a standard we all try and set ourselves.
00:37:25But did you question anything in this report?
00:37:29Well, you can't check everything.
00:37:32Did you check anything?
00:37:34Mr. Ash is a man of integrity.
00:37:37I took his word at the time and, well, I still do.
00:37:42Did you check anything?
00:37:44Anything.
00:37:45Well, you only check things like that when you...
00:37:47Answer counsel's question, Mr. Summers.
00:37:52No.
00:37:57Were there no special investigators used in this case?
00:38:00Well, they're only necessary when the man claims to be living apart from the woman.
00:38:05Well, in this case, they weren't necessary.
00:38:07We had a strong case.
00:38:08The facts were there.
00:38:09And I knew the claimant concerned.
00:38:12Yes, you did, didn't you?
00:38:13You knew Mrs. Robertson personally.
00:38:16Yes.
00:38:17Would you prefer to describe her as a thorn in your flesh?
00:38:20It is a very fair description, yes.
00:38:22Yes, she made life difficult for you.
00:38:24She was not an easy client.
00:38:26Yes, in her brushes with you,
00:38:28Mrs. Robertson was mostly campaigning for someone else there, wasn't she?
00:38:31Oh, she interfered.
00:38:32She...
00:38:34Yes, Mr. Summers?
00:38:36She mostly spoke on behalf of other people, yes.
00:38:39Yes.
00:38:40So when her own case came up in Mr. Ash's report,
00:38:43was not your consideration of it prejudiced and biased?
00:38:50Yes.
00:38:51Well, perhaps you'll now answer the question.
00:38:54Well, personal feelings don't enter into it.
00:38:57Each case is decided on its merits,
00:39:00on the facts.
00:39:02I see.
00:39:03And on your character assessments of your clients?
00:39:06Yes.
00:39:08Mr. Summers, what are the medically recognised stages of alcoholism?
00:39:13Well, how is that relevant?
00:39:16You must answer counsel's questions, Mr.
00:39:19Sorry, but I can't answer it, I don't know.
00:39:21Yes, well, what are the generally recognised symptoms
00:39:23from which one would conclude if a person was suffering from manic depressive psychosis?
00:39:29Well, that's ridiculous, I don't know.
00:39:31Yes, well, do any of your staff receive psychiatric training?
00:39:36Well, no, no, no, but...
00:39:39Eric, thank you.
00:39:40No further questions, Mr. Summers.
00:39:41I have no re-examination, my lord.
00:39:42You may leave the witness box, Mr. Summers.
00:39:44Thank you for attending.
00:39:46I call the defendant, Stephen Ash.
00:39:48You are Stephen Ash of 8 Netherbridge Street, Fulchester.
00:40:01Yes.
00:40:02You work as a social security officer for the Department of Health and Social Security
00:40:05in Rayburn Road, Fulchester.
00:40:07Well, I'm under suspension.
00:40:10I see.
00:40:11Now, Mr. Ash, when did you first visit Mrs. Robertson?
00:40:13Beginning of January 1972, January the 3rd.
00:40:16And what was the reason for this particular visit?
00:40:19She'd sent in a spurious BO40, which she'd filled up with...
00:40:21One moment.
00:40:23What was spurious?
00:40:24BO40, clothing allowance form, for internal use only, my lord.
00:40:29The claimants' union and like-minded bodies
00:40:32somehow obtain copies and send them in.
00:40:34And that is wrong, is it?
00:40:36Oh, quite wrong procedure, yes.
00:40:38We have to judge what they need.
00:40:41I see, Mr. Price.
00:40:43Can you explain exactly what this particular form is for?
00:40:46If the person under benefit or dependent has inadequate clothing,
00:40:50then he or she may claim to make up such deficiencies.
00:40:53BO40 lists the minimum clothing it has felt desirable for a person to have.
00:40:58For instance, a boy should have jacket or wind cheetah, one,
00:41:02trousers two pairs, socks or stockings three pairs.
00:41:05Thank you. And you'd received such a form from Mrs. Robertson?
00:41:08A clothes shop, as we term it.
00:41:10Oh, she'd filled everything in.
00:41:11I think she was trying me out.
00:41:16New man on the job, see what we can get out of it.
00:41:18What did she get out of you?
00:41:20A pair of knickers for the girl, undervest for the boy.
00:41:23What was her reaction?
00:41:25Very verbal.
00:41:26Abusive?
00:41:27Yes.
00:41:28Did anything else come up at this first meeting?
00:41:30Well, cohabitation.
00:41:31You saw something that made you suspect this?
00:41:35There was a donkey jacket on the peg behind the door.
00:41:38A pair of men's carpet slippers, well-worn.
00:41:41Coupons saved from a small cigar packet.
00:41:43She smoked cigarettes.
00:41:45Did you confront her with this?
00:41:47I asked her if she understood what cohabitation meant.
00:41:50She said, I understand a bloody sight more about it than you do.
00:41:55And then she threatened me with a bottle.
00:41:57She said if I didn't get out, she'd brain me with it.
00:42:00And what did you do?
00:42:02Well, I talked to her.
00:42:07Her attack was a cry for help.
00:42:10Oh, Mr.
00:42:11Surely this is a rather unusual way of asking for help.
00:42:15Well, she was in a very disturbed state.
00:42:18She had a lot of problems.
00:42:20Personal problems, but she blamed them on society.
00:42:23Being a representative of that society, she attacked me.
00:42:28But I was only the outlet.
00:42:31Ah, yes.
00:42:32Yes, I think I see what you mean.
00:42:33You did not regard this attack as personal.
00:42:36That's right, my lord.
00:42:38Yes, Mr.
00:42:39Did your talking to Mrs. Robertson do any good?
00:42:41No, she was very rigid in her views.
00:42:44You followed up your suspicions about cohabitation?
00:42:46Oh, yes, I met Mr. Rimmer.
00:42:48They didn't deny he was staying there part of the week,
00:42:51but then he started classifying himself as a lodger.
00:42:54So I made out a fresh A1114.
00:42:57What was that?
00:42:58A claimant form for benefit.
00:43:00And I reduced the benefit by £2.50,
00:43:03the amount of the alleged rent.
00:43:05When was that?
00:43:07After the beginning of February.
00:43:08Did you believe that Rimmer was the lodger?
00:43:10No, I thought they were cohabiting then.
00:43:13And why didn't you take action at that time?
00:43:15I wasn't sure.
00:43:17See, we don't like taking people's books away, at least I don't.
00:43:22I've never done it unless I was absolutely sure that the rules were being broken.
00:43:26Besides, I thought that the relationship between Mrs. Robertson and Mr. Rimmer was likely to break up at any moment.
00:43:32In which case, withdrawing the book would have been irrelevant.
00:43:35Yes.
00:43:36Now, Mr. Ash, would you look at your file on Mrs. Robertson, Form A6M?
00:43:39This is page four.
00:43:41Would you be kind enough to read out some of the headings over the boxes you're required to tick when you're assessing a client?
00:43:47Chronic illness, mental health doubtful, child neglect...
00:43:54Thank you. Now, what do you regard as the purpose of these boxes?
00:43:58Well, the department...
00:43:59No, no, no. I mean, what do you think their purpose is?
00:44:02Well, they're important features of the claimant. They describe what she is.
00:44:09Any special problems for us?
00:44:13Needs, yes. What they need.
00:44:15Needs? In other words, they're there for the benefit of the...
00:44:18Yes, I'm sure you're not going to put words into your client's mouth, Mr. Fry.
00:44:22I think he's approached the point, Lord.
00:44:24Approached, but not yet reached, I think.
00:44:26As your lordship pleases.
00:44:28Why did you put a tick through mental health doubtful?
00:44:31Because it was. It is.
00:44:33But on what grounds did you make this judgement?
00:44:35On what I saw.
00:44:37On her abnormal behaviour patterns.
00:44:40I'll give you an example.
00:44:41That first time when she came for me with a bottle, well, I talked her out of it.
00:44:44From screaming at me, she suddenly dropped the bottle and began laughing hysterically.
00:44:49Violent changes of mood.
00:44:51Well, you've seen her here.
00:44:52Well on the way to being an alcoholic.
00:44:55Well, crates of wine in the flat always.
00:44:57Well, it has been suggested that they were for redistribution.
00:45:00I may be.
00:45:01But Rimmer let her take what she wanted.
00:45:03She was a different person when he was about.
00:45:06He encouraged her to drink.
00:45:08She'd had a lot to drink on that Friday evening.
00:45:11September the 15th we're talking about.
00:45:12Yes.
00:45:13What made you aware of that?
00:45:15Her manner.
00:45:17Empty bottle at the waste bin, half empty bottle on the table.
00:45:20You remember the events of that evening clearly.
00:45:23Oh, yes, I do.
00:45:24And did you notify her that you were going to call?
00:45:26Yes, I sent her the usual notice.
00:45:28Proposed to visit, afternoon of the 15th.
00:45:31But do you keep copies of these notices?
00:45:33Oh, no, it's just a...
00:45:35Just a little slip, you know, like a compliment slip.
00:45:37Yes, I see. And what was the purpose of this visit?
00:45:40To inform her that I was reporting her as a cohabitation case.
00:45:43And what had brought you to this decision?
00:45:47During the preceding two months, Rimmer had been living more or less permanently at Brent Gardens.
00:45:53I noticed that...
00:45:54This was when he was working for the Fulchester Carafe Wine Company.
00:45:56Yes.
00:45:57I noticed that blankets and sheets, previously kept in the folding portion of the picture-up bed in the living room, were no longer present.
00:46:04In the bedroom, there were signs that two people were sleeping there regularly.
00:46:08Ashtrays on each side of the bed, two pillows, soil patches on each, suggesting regular use.
00:46:14So you were satisfied that they were living together as man and wife at that stage, and that therefore Mrs. Robertson was drawing benefit illegally?
00:46:21Oh, yes. Yes.
00:46:23I cautioned her.
00:46:25And she said, don't be bloody daft.
00:46:27Well, I gave her the reasons, which I have just given you.
00:46:31And then she took a photograph out of the drawer...
00:46:33Just one moment. This is document 10, my lord.
00:46:40Did you recognise the child?
00:46:42Yes, Roger, Mrs. Robertson's son.
00:46:44And then she threw the picture on the table, and she said, if you want evidence, you can find plenty, but you still can't stop my benefit.
00:46:53What did you infer from that?
00:46:55Roger was... was Mr. Rimmer's son.
00:46:58Did you regard that as conclusive proof of cohabitation?
00:47:01Oh, no, no. No, but very strong additional evidence.
00:47:05I wonder why she should give it to you.
00:47:07Because she was drunk.
00:47:09Because that was exactly the sort of mood she was in. Defiant.
00:47:12She thought she was too big for anyone to touch, whatever evidence they had.
00:47:17Well, I picked up the picture, and I put it in my briefcase.
00:47:21She went very quiet. I think she must have realised what she'd done.
00:47:23She said, you're not really going to do anything, are you?
00:47:28Well, I asked her if she wanted to write out a statement which I would include with my report.
00:47:33She didn't say anything. She got up, and she went into the bedroom. I followed her to ask her again.
00:47:45She started to open her clothing.
00:47:49She said, come on, you'd better have it, if you want it.
00:47:55Mrs. Robertson maintains that she was joking. Was this your impression?
00:47:58Oh, no. No, not at all.
00:48:00Did you touch her?
00:48:01No.
00:48:02What happened then?
00:48:03Well, as soon as she heard Rimmer enter the flat, she flew at me. She went berserk.
00:48:10And then Rimmer came in, and before I knew not what was happening, he got hold of me as if it was me then.
00:48:17And then he threw me outside, on the street.
00:48:20When did you write your report, Mr. Andy?
00:48:22At Monday.
00:48:23Did you recollect your frame of mind when you wrote it?
00:48:25Yes.
00:48:27I was sorry about it, but quite calm, you know.
00:48:31We do calm down quick.
00:48:34You get the practice.
00:48:36We get a lot of hostility.
00:48:38Did you try to make an objective report, which it was your duty to do?
00:48:41Oh, yes. Yes, I did.
00:48:43And you believed the statements in it to be true?
00:48:45They were true.
00:48:47Absolutely true.
00:48:53The case of Robertson versus Ash will be resumed tomorrow in the Crown Court.
00:49:13ORCHESTRAL MUSIC PLAYS
00:49:23ORCHESTRAL MUSIC PLAYS
00:49:28It seems very reasonable.
00:49:52Mr. Ash, do you have a sense of humour?
00:50:00Do you have a sense of humour?
00:50:03Well, I suppose.
00:50:06I enjoy the occasional joke, yes.
00:50:08The occasional joke?
00:50:10Do you know when someone's being serious and when they're not?
00:50:13Of course.
00:50:14Do you know when someone's laughing at you?
00:50:16I don't know how my client's supposed to answer that sort of question.
00:50:18Don't be a little less oblique, Mr. Parson.
00:50:20I'll try, my lord.
00:50:22The first time, when Mrs. Robinson came at you with the bottle,
00:50:25you talked to her.
00:50:26Yes.
00:50:27She put the bottle down and started laughing hysterically, you say.
00:50:30Did it not occur to you that she might be laughing at you?
00:50:33Her behaviour was abnormal.
00:50:36Yes, but that doesn't answer the question, Mr. Ash.
00:50:39Did it never occur to you at all that she might be laughing at you?
00:50:44No.
00:50:46Would you drink?
00:50:47Yes.
00:50:48How much, how much?
00:50:49An occasional light ale.
00:50:50Are you married?
00:50:51No.
00:50:52Have you ever been married?
00:50:53No.
00:50:54In the summer of 72, did you have a girlfriend?
00:50:57No.
00:50:58I couldn't.
00:50:59You couldn't?
00:51:01My mother.
00:51:03My mother was ill, dying.
00:51:05I see.
00:51:06When did your mother die?
00:51:07June the 12th, in the morning.
00:51:09Had she been ill for long?
00:51:11Eight years.
00:51:12She had arthritis, sir.
00:51:13Then cancer.
00:51:14Yes, sir.
00:51:15Between your mother and your clients, it didn't leave you very much time for social activities.
00:51:20Fishing on Sundays.
00:51:21Fishing.
00:51:22As a member of a club?
00:51:23You catch more by yourself.
00:51:24Yes, I see.
00:51:25Would it be fair to say that following your mother's death, your main relationships were with
00:51:26your clients?
00:51:27Oh, yes.
00:51:28I like my job.
00:51:29Is there a risk of getting over-involved with them?
00:51:30Yes.
00:51:31Yes.
00:51:32Do you tend to become over-involved?
00:51:33I do not.
00:51:34I watch that very carefully.
00:51:35We're trained not to become emotionally involved.
00:51:38Yes.
00:51:39Now, you are personally responsible for 150 claimants.
00:51:42About that.
00:51:43How many?
00:51:44Yes.
00:51:45How many?
00:51:46Yes.
00:51:47Yes.
00:51:48Yes.
00:51:49Yes.
00:51:50Yes.
00:51:51Yes.
00:51:52Yes.
00:51:53Yes.
00:51:54Yes.
00:51:55Yes.
00:51:56How many home visits would you make in a year?
00:52:01No idea.
00:52:02Well, let me try and help you.
00:52:04You have office work to do, holidays, courses to go on.
00:52:08If I said that for 250 days in the year, you managed to do an average of three home visits
00:52:14a day, making a total of 750, would I be erring on the side of generosity?
00:52:19Yes, you would.
00:52:20Yes.
00:52:21Now, that means that each claimant is seen, on average, three times a year.
00:52:25It does work like that.
00:52:26Some people you never see, some people you never stop seeing.
00:52:29Like Mrs. Robertson.
00:52:30Mrs. Robertson was a very demanding claimant.
00:52:33Yes.
00:52:34So much so that you had to see her no less than 14 times between January and September 1972.
00:52:40I mean, you've recorded them quite meticulously in your records.
00:52:43Your records are correct.
00:52:44Of course my records are correct.
00:52:46Yes.
00:52:47Now, did you visit Mrs. Robertson on June 16th, 1972 and on June 20th, 1972?
00:52:52I can't remember individual dates if they're on the records.
00:52:55No, no.
00:52:56They're not on the records.
00:52:59Did you visit her on these dates?
00:53:02It's possible.
00:53:03Possible?
00:53:04Yes.
00:53:05Possible.
00:53:06Because you made a number of visits to Mrs. Robertson which are not recorded.
00:53:09Yes.
00:53:10Yes.
00:53:11Mrs. Robertson is not inefficient either and kept a record of her own.
00:53:14Now, why didn't you record these visits, Mr. Ash?
00:53:17Because they were not office visits.
00:53:19Not office visits?
00:53:21What sort of visits were they?
00:53:24Welfare visits.
00:53:25Her welfare or yours?
00:53:26My lord.
00:53:27Oh, yes, Mr. Frank.
00:53:28Ask questions, not innuendos, Mr. Parsons.
00:53:31Yes.
00:53:32My lord.
00:53:33What was the purpose of these welfare visits?
00:53:37I was arguing with her.
00:53:39I was concerned about the children with her political activities.
00:53:42They were often on their own.
00:53:44Yes.
00:53:45I mean, Mr. Rimmer, I'm sure.
00:53:46Mr. Rimmer was away a good deal at that time.
00:53:48Ah, yes.
00:53:49We are talking about June, July, 72, aren't we?
00:53:53Just after your mother died.
00:53:55Yes.
00:53:56Did you talk to Mrs. Robertson about that?
00:53:59It came up in conversation, yes.
00:54:01It came up.
00:54:02Didn't it come up rather a lot one evening?
00:54:06Yes.
00:54:08Yes, it did.
00:54:09Well, there was something amusing about that particular evening.
00:54:12Well, Mrs. Robertson gave me a lot of advice.
00:54:16But that's amusing.
00:54:18Is she actually might think herself in a position to give you advice?
00:54:23Well, yes.
00:54:27Hmm.
00:54:28Well, what sort of advice did she give you?
00:54:31Don't sit around in your mother's old house, sell it and buy a flat, that sort of thing.
00:54:36Yes, do you find the fact that you were having that conversation extremely surprising?
00:54:40No, I'd worked very hard on her.
00:54:41Oh, did you?
00:54:42If you can get inside...
00:54:43You had worked very hard on her.
00:54:45If you can get inside a person's aggression, you'll find they're quite different.
00:54:50Do you?
00:54:52How?
00:54:53How different?
00:54:55She did a lot for other people.
00:54:59Of course, she got no method where she went about things.
00:55:04But she did set about things.
00:55:06Got things moving, too.
00:55:08The DHSS isn't perfect.
00:55:12Sometimes we're badly understaffed.
00:55:14Mistakes are made.
00:55:15Well, she brought some of them to my attention.
00:55:17Similarly, with her claimants' union, they'd get hold of the wrong end of the stick.
00:55:21And I was able to point out where there was some...
00:55:23You collaborated, didn't you?
00:55:25Oh, no.
00:55:26No, not at all.
00:55:27No?
00:55:28No, I wouldn't use that word.
00:55:29Well, what word would you use?
00:55:31Well, I'd say there was some exchange of information.
00:55:35Ah.
00:55:36Well, during this exchange of information, didn't you fear that you'd become rather close?
00:55:41No, not close.
00:55:42Not in that way.
00:55:46You don't understand.
00:55:47I don't.
00:55:51Sometimes she was a completely different person.
00:55:56If she could have stopped drinking and got away from people who expected her,
00:56:01who encouraged her to throw another shoe through another window,
00:56:05she could have been rehabilitated.
00:56:08Rehabilitated?
00:56:10And you thought that you were the person to do this?
00:56:13Were you attracted to Mrs Robertson's?
00:56:15Of course I wasn't.
00:56:16Why, of course.
00:56:18She's a very attractive woman, isn't she?
00:56:20I just didn't see her in that way.
00:56:22Oh, yes.
00:56:23You keep saying in that way.
00:56:24What you meant was you weren't sexually attracted, didn't you?
00:56:27I was not.
00:56:28But I suggest you were attracted in some way, weren't you?
00:56:31Weren't you?
00:56:33I mean, you keep on talking about this exchange of information.
00:56:37Oh, right.
00:56:38I did get too involved, but in the case.
00:56:41She was a case.
00:56:43I'm sorry, Your Lodge.
00:56:52Now, in August, you put your house on the market.
00:56:56Yes, I did.
00:56:57And began looking for a flat.
00:56:59Yes.
00:57:00And you told Mrs Robertson about that?
00:57:02Possibly.
00:57:03Yes, I did.
00:57:04You were thinking of moving near her.
00:57:07I was thinking of moving into my area.
00:57:10I believe an officer should live in his area.
00:57:13Yes, but at the end of July, Mr Rimmer returned to the foe, didn't he?
00:57:17And affected your relationship with Mrs Robertson.
00:57:20No, really, in spite of his most strenuous efforts,
00:57:22my friend has failed to establish any kind of relationship
00:57:24between Mrs Robertson and my client.
00:57:26Yes, I think any kind is not right, Mr Fryer,
00:57:29but I cannot allow the ambiguity to pass, Mr Parson.
00:57:31The Lordship directs.
00:57:33Mr Rimmer's return.
00:57:36Did this affect your professional relationship with Mrs Robertson?
00:57:39It affected her.
00:57:40She began to drink more.
00:57:42Became more quarrelsome.
00:57:43Oh, yes, her drinking.
00:57:45Let us consider your estimation of her drinking
00:57:48by looking at the events of the evening of September the 15th, 1972.
00:57:53Was she lurching about in an incapable manner?
00:57:58It wasn't like a film.
00:58:00She could take a lot of drink and not show it.
00:58:03What do you mean there was no visible signs at all?
00:58:05I knew how much she'd had.
00:58:06Well, how?
00:58:07I see enough of it.
00:58:09Yes, but she could have taken very little or nothing at all
00:58:12and still show no signs of that either.
00:58:14I mean, as the drinker of the occasional light air,
00:58:17you are hardly the best judge, are you?
00:58:23Now, you say that after she'd been cautioned,
00:58:25she gave you a photograph.
00:58:27Yes.
00:58:28And you thought this could be taken away
00:58:30and used as evidence against her, didn't you?
00:58:33Didn't you find it rather extraordinary that she had done this?
00:58:36I've explained that.
00:58:38You've given an explanation.
00:58:40But the jury might think there's rather a more credible one.
00:58:45Now, she gave you the picture and you quote her as saying,
00:58:51if you want evidence, you can find plenty of it,
00:58:55but you still can't stop my benefit.
00:58:57You see, what I suggest she was saying was
00:59:00that this whole cohabitation business
00:59:03is in such a muddle that you can always produce evidence.
00:59:07Look, here's some more, she said,
00:59:09but it doesn't matter what you produce,
00:59:11you still can't stop my benefit
00:59:13because it simply isn't true.
00:59:15I am not and I never have been cohabiting.
00:59:18It's not what she thinks.
00:59:20It's what we think.
00:59:22And she didn't say it like that.
00:59:24She said, you can't stop my benefit.
00:59:27That's what she said.
00:59:28And you said to her that unless Rimmer went,
00:59:30you would file this report.
00:59:31No, I did not.
00:59:32I said I was filing the report
00:59:34and I asked her if there was anything she wanted to say.
00:59:37Yes.
00:59:38You told her that evening about the new flat you decided to buy.
00:59:40No, I did not.
00:59:42But you can't remember showing her the prospectus?
00:59:45The estate agent's prospectus?
00:59:48She picked that up.
00:59:50Well, you put it down.
00:59:52Presumably.
00:59:54Mr. Ash, you put the prospectus down for her to see, did you not?
01:00:13It came out with the other papers.
01:00:14It came out with the other papers?
01:00:15I was taking them out of my case.
01:00:17I followed the procedure exactly.
01:00:18Nothing personal entered into it.
01:00:19I took out my papers, preparatory to taking her statement.
01:00:21She saw the prospectus and picked it up.
01:00:23I can't live there, she said.
01:00:24Central heating makes my nose itch.
01:00:25Had you asked her?
01:00:26Of course I hadn't asked her.
01:00:27The whole thing was ridiculous.
01:00:28I kept trying to make her see what a serious position she was in,
01:00:31but she kept on laughing.
01:00:32Oh no.
01:00:33No, she hadn't, she said.
01:00:34I hadn't.
01:00:35I had no idea.
01:00:36Well, she came out of my case.
01:00:38I was taking them out of my case.
01:00:39I followed procedure exactly.
01:00:41Nothing personal entered into it.
01:00:42I took out my papers preparatory to taking her statement.
01:00:44in but she kept on laughing oh no no she had had a lot to drink well i said i understand
01:00:51you have no statement to make and prepared to go it was then that she brought out the picture
01:00:55and what she expected that to do well i simply put it in my briefcase with my other papers
01:01:01that quietened her just like that
01:01:07and then and then she went into the bedroom
01:01:14i followed her why to ask her if she wanted me to include a statement but you had already asked her
01:01:25that mr ash why did you really go into the bedroom you completed all your official business hadn't
01:01:33you cautioned her told her you were going to file the report asked her if you wished to make a
01:01:37statement you put away your papers what other business had you left to do what
01:01:44i suggest that you had only one purpose in your mind when you would enter that bedroom i also
01:01:49suggest that that purpose was eaten in your mind before you entered that flat whatever words you
01:01:55used or did not use you used that report to put pressure on mrs robertson to get rid of rima so
01:02:01that you could pursue your own relationship however you wish to describe that relationship now when she
01:02:06went into the bedroom you thought you succeeded didn't you you made advances which when resisted
01:02:12turned into an attack that's not true what is not true what is true what she went
01:02:21i just wanted to cover her up
01:02:23i kept trying to to make her feel some sense of shame
01:02:30now by cover her up what do you mean you want to fasten her dressing gown yes
01:02:45but i shouldn't have touched her you see she thought i was she thought i was trying to yes
01:02:52i'm sure she did mr ash weren't you trying to no no i wasn't come now mr ash you had lost control
01:03:01no no but when she heard the flat door go she flew at me she attacked me
01:03:07and then they were both at me her and rimmer they were both at you yes they assaulted you and yet
01:03:13to my certain knowledge you didn't report this matter to the police no there are often arguments
01:03:21rouse we learned to deal with them ourselves yes by making reports
01:03:27that isn't fair what you did wasn't very fair it's a very vehement report no i reported on the
01:03:38situation oh mentally unstable manic depressive isn't that vehement hysterical it's what she is how do
01:03:46you know can you tell me the symptoms of a manic depressive psychosis yes moods of elation and
01:03:53depression which spring up from no apparent cause and persist in a way which normal moods do not
01:04:03thank you well people can swing from one to the other they go up and down thank you
01:04:11you're repeating something you've written a book aren't you oh yes i am yes you read a lot in
01:04:17psychiatry do you yes i do yes paperbacks paperbacks yes yes from which you pick out phrases you are
01:04:24you're not entitled to you i know what they mean what you've been training in psychiatric medicine
01:04:29have you oh no what sort of what sort of mood were you in that the evening you wrote that report
01:04:37looter oh normal normal
01:04:43you weren't even slightly resentful slightly hurt you were just normal yes mr ash i suggest to you that you
01:04:53were humiliated when you wrote that report humiliated bitter and angry and that you used that report as
01:04:59a weapon against mrs robertson to put it very simply just to get your own back didn't you no i
01:05:05did not i did not and if anyone's trying to get home mr ash from your reading and from the courses that
01:05:12you've been sent on as part of your professional training would you describe yourself as having a
01:05:16reasonable lay knowledge of psychiatry yes i think so now whether you were right or wrong in your use
01:05:22of psychiatric terminology do you honestly believe these descriptions to be true when you wrote them
01:05:27yes i did going back to the weekend taking the weekend as a whole can you remember anything about
01:05:33your state of mind well i was upset at first i don't know but when i went fishing on the sunday i remember
01:05:49feeling um yeah i was sort of relieved you see i had got to involve that is true but in her as a case
01:06:01not as a person that's what i'm trying to i realized that i um i should have put that report in months
01:06:10ago i suppose a lapse in duty which you decided to correct on the monday oh yes yes unless your
01:06:17lordship had any questions that concludes the case for the defense no you may leave the witness box mr
01:06:22mr parsons mr fry we will now adjourn and consider the questions to be put to the jury
01:06:28all stand hopefully
01:06:38very please your lordship members of the jury it was mr ashe's job it was mr ashe's duty to report
01:06:45on mrs robertson's character on any matters that might affect her claim it is the defense's case that
01:06:51he did his duty and no more than that now you've seen mrs robertson you've heard her in the witness box
01:06:58in the light of what you've seen and heard dare you describe his report as inaccurate there is no doubt
01:07:03that she drinks and since her flat appears to have been a mini wine warehouse do you see big annie
01:07:08settling for a modest glass or so a day was it not therefore reasonable of mr ashe to say that she was on
01:07:14the way to being an alcoholic you've heard of mrs robertson's temper of her violent outbursts and
01:07:20changes of mood was it not therefore reasonable to say that she was mentally unstable remember that
01:07:24the official form a6m requires the visiting officer to note the mental stability of the claimant as to
01:07:32the crucial cohabitation issue i submit that since rimmer mrs robertson had known each other for a period
01:07:38of years since there appeared to be a common home a common bedroom possibly a common child it was not
01:07:44only reasonable it was mr ashe's duty to put in that report indeed his only error lay in not filing it
01:07:49sooner and when he did make that report can there be any doubt as to his motivation though he had got
01:07:57too involved he was honest enough to admit that but was he filled with malice he rushed from mrs robertson's
01:08:03flat and pen a vitriolic attack upon her members of the jury he went fishing he spent the weekend
01:08:11in his usual pursuits and not until the monday did he write the report it was his duty to write now in
01:08:17answering the questions that have been agreed between his lordship my learning friend of myself
01:08:21i ask you to consider that he wrote that report without malice believing it to be true in which
01:08:27case i ask you to find for the defendant it was the jury i have no doubt in my mind about one aspect
01:08:38of this case and i'm sure there's very little left in yours that is that a relationship had built up
01:08:44between mr ashe and mrs robertson it may be a relationship that's very difficult to pinpoint
01:08:50but a relationship there was yet suddenly mr ashe produced a vehement vindictive and cruel report on
01:09:00mrs robertson saying that her mental health was in doubt she was on the way to becoming an alcoholic
01:09:05and that she was cohabiting with mr rimmer now it is very important in this case that we should be quite
01:09:13clear whether these statements first of all are true or not now i would simply ask you this question
01:09:20you have all watched mrs robertson during this trial does she for one moment seem to you like
01:09:27an hysterical manic depressive sort of person an extrovert yes a bit loud perhaps yes compassionate
01:09:34yes so compassionate we have heard for the work she does for other people with the claimers union
01:09:42we're in the way to becoming an alcoholic now we only have mr ashe's word for that
01:09:49in his judgment we've already seen that most of these bottles of wine of the plaid were for
01:09:54redistribution but even if they had have been for home consumption we have no proof still of alcoholism
01:10:03finally there is the thorny problem of cohabitation now the supplementary benefits handbook states
01:10:12that the 1966 act does not define cohabitation now i would suggest to you that mr ashe also finds it
01:10:20difficult to define especially since mr rimmer was never there most of the time and we subsequently
01:10:26discover that he has further lodgings in london so why did mr ashe fire this report well sadly it was
01:10:36seen that after the death of his mother he wished to broaden his relationship with mrs robertson and
01:10:44when these advances were met with a rebuttal it was he who became hysterical it was he who became manic
01:10:53and he filed a damaging and libelous report libelous because the report was written out of spite
01:11:01because mr ashe knew that these facts were not true i therefore ask you to find for my client and to
01:11:09award her substantial damages the law on this matter states that the burden of proving that the
01:11:15libel was published and is defamatory falls on the plaintiff the statement is defamatory if it tends
01:11:20to bring the person mentioned in it into hatred ridicule or contempt now it is up to you but you may
01:11:27think that an assertion that a woman is on the way to becoming an alcoholic is mentally unstable is
01:11:32cohabiting with a man to whom she is not married does tend to bring her into hatred ridicule or
01:11:38contempt so if you find that the content of mr ashe's report was defamatory of mrs robertson then
01:11:47the burden falls on the defendant in two ways the first line of defense is that the matter contained
01:11:53in the statement was true so has the defense convinced you on the balance of probabilities
01:11:57that at the time mrs robertson was on the way to becoming an alcoholic mentally unstable
01:12:03cohabiting with the man edward rimmer if you decide the report was not true then you must be extremely
01:12:12careful to bear in mind that you are in possession of certain information heard in this court which mr
01:12:17ash did not possess for instance he didn't know it hasn't been established that he knew about edward
01:12:22rimmer's second corner in london and this brings us to the second line of defense if you are convinced
01:12:32that the matter contained in the report was not true then you must ask yourselves if mr ash honestly
01:12:41thought the report was true and made in the course of his duty but not out of spite because if so
01:12:48then it is covered by what is known as qualified privilege now qualified privilege protects a
01:12:56person who makes a defamatory statement even though it transpires that that statement wasn't true
01:13:02qualified privilege can only be destroyed in its turn by the plaintiff proving malice members of the
01:13:11jury will you now please retire and consider the agreed questions put to you by council
01:13:18members of the jury will your foreman please stand just answer this question yes or no have you
01:13:24reached decisions on which you're all agreed yes the first question was the defendant's report likely
01:13:30to bring the plaintiff into hatred ridicule or contempt yes the second question were the statements
01:13:37contained in the report true or believed without malice to be true by the defendant yes and then the
01:13:43third question does not apply thank you lord in accordance with the jury's decision i ask that
01:13:47the judgment be recorded for my client mr ash has suffered considerable professional embarrassment
01:13:53during the course of this action and has incurred substantial financial loss in respect of this i
01:13:59apply for cost on his behalf
01:14:14join us next week when our cameras return to watch another leading case in the crown court
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