- 3 months ago
On October 26, 2025, the musicians Lucy Dacus and Rufus Wainwright took the stage for a discussion with the New Yorker staff writer Amanda Petrusich at the 26th annual New Yorker Festival.
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00:00:00Amanda Petrasich Reviewer
00:00:07Good evening, everyone.
00:00:16Thank you so much for being here.
00:00:17I'm Amanda Petrasich.
00:00:19I'm a staff writer at the magazine.
00:00:21On behalf of everyone at The New Yorker,
00:00:23I want to welcome you to the 26th annual New Yorker Festival.
00:00:26It is my great pleasure, of course, to be in conversation tonight
00:00:30with Lucy Dacus and Rufus Wainwright.
00:00:35I want to start by asking how you two know each other.
00:00:39I knew you before you know me.
00:00:43I actually, I don't know if I told you this,
00:00:45I saw you play in 2012 with Ingrid Michelson opening
00:00:48at Wolf Trap in Vienna, Virginia.
00:00:51And I was fully a teenager
00:00:54and, like, busking a lot at Virginia Beach
00:00:58with my friend Allie.
00:01:00And we went to your show.
00:01:03Allie was a big Ingrid Michelson fan.
00:01:05And I didn't know your music at the time.
00:01:09And they were like,
00:01:11oh, we could see Ingrid and then leave or something.
00:01:13And then I was like, no.
00:01:15You came on stage and I was just listening to your songs.
00:01:18And I was like, I'm not missing a single song.
00:01:21And, I mean, yeah.
00:01:23It's very special when you don't know a song
00:01:25and it gets to you immediately,
00:01:27especially in a live setting.
00:01:29So, yeah.
00:01:31It's cool to be here for me.
00:01:34Well, thank you so much.
00:01:35You know, the first time I met Lucy
00:01:37was actually at the Grammys.
00:01:40I had been nominated a couple of times,
00:01:45but I had never gone.
00:01:46The first time was for my Judy record
00:01:49and then I didn't win.
00:01:52And then I also...
00:01:54And then the second time was during COVID.
00:01:57So, I didn't go for that.
00:01:58But then the third time
00:01:59for the Folkocracy record,
00:02:01I decided to go.
00:02:02And I'd never been to the actual show.
00:02:05And I was...
00:02:06Because I presented an award at one point,
00:02:08and they gave me a special seat,
00:02:10like right in the hub
00:02:11of where everything was happening.
00:02:12And I was completely blown away
00:02:14by just being in the, you know,
00:02:17the nebulous world of show business
00:02:20all of a sudden.
00:02:20Everybody was there.
00:02:21And that's when I met you and Board Genius.
00:02:24And you kind of surrounded me
00:02:25and you, like, protected me
00:02:27from, like, rap stars
00:02:28and, you know,
00:02:30trying to get to, you know,
00:02:33Meryl Streep.
00:02:34You know, it was just very glamorous.
00:02:35It was incredibly glamorous.
00:02:37And then, of course, we had coffee,
00:02:39which was a little more down-to-earth.
00:02:41You also gave us,
00:02:42let's not undercut,
00:02:43you handed us the Grammys that we won.
00:02:45Yes.
00:02:46And we were, like, on stage.
00:02:48I don't know if you remember this,
00:02:50but before we got there,
00:02:51I was like, love you.
00:02:53Like, walking up to you.
00:02:54There is incredible footage
00:02:55of Rufus presenting
00:02:57Best Rock Performance
00:02:58to Boy Genius at the Grammys.
00:02:59And you, it...
00:03:01I don't know where you guys were sitting.
00:03:02It seemed at some,
00:03:03removed from the stage,
00:03:04there's an amazing video.
00:03:06Lucy just sort of
00:03:07booking it down the aisle
00:03:09right toward you
00:03:10to get there.
00:03:11That was your first Grammy, right?
00:03:13Yes.
00:03:13Aww.
00:03:15First makes it sound like
00:03:16it's gonna, I don't know.
00:03:17I hate you.
00:03:17First and last, I don't know.
00:03:19We were really far from the stage,
00:03:21and I just had this thought,
00:03:22like, oh my gosh,
00:03:23this is gonna take forever.
00:03:24They're just gonna be watching us.
00:03:27So I was just like,
00:03:28let's get down there.
00:03:29Well, that year, for me,
00:03:31was particularly poignant,
00:03:32as in sad,
00:03:34because I had decided,
00:03:35as I said,
00:03:36I'd been nominated
00:03:36for a couple of Grammys,
00:03:37and I hadn't won,
00:03:38and then I thought,
00:03:40well, you know,
00:03:40maybe I should do
00:03:40a folk music album,
00:03:44because I noticed
00:03:45that there was a lot of categories,
00:03:46and I was from a folk background.
00:03:49So I said,
00:03:49oh, that'll be easy.
00:03:50I'll do it.
00:03:50And it was the year
00:03:51that I decided
00:03:52to make a folk record.
00:03:53Joni Mitchell decided
00:03:54to make a folk record.
00:03:55And Paul Simon,
00:03:57the two of them.
00:03:58Jerks.
00:03:58So as I was presenting her award,
00:04:01I saw them wheeling up Joni Mitchell
00:04:03to accept our,
00:04:05you know, hers.
00:04:06Your award.
00:04:06It was supposed to be mine.
00:04:08So anyways,
00:04:10she deserved it.
00:04:11Give Rufus a Grammy.
00:04:16So you are both
00:04:17undoubtedly queer icons.
00:04:20You also write
00:04:21a lot of love songs.
00:04:23And Lucy,
00:04:24you have been doing
00:04:26this remarkable thing recently
00:04:27where you became legally ordained
00:04:29and you've been marrying
00:04:31people on stage.
00:04:32Three weeks ago,
00:04:32you married nine couples,
00:04:34I think, on stage
00:04:35at Forest Hills
00:04:36in the middle of your show.
00:04:39I was hoping you could talk
00:04:41a little bit about
00:04:41how and why that started.
00:04:44Well,
00:04:45it's not that fun of an answer.
00:04:50Basically,
00:04:51just looking down the barrel,
00:04:53wondering if it's going
00:04:54to be possible
00:04:55for everyone to get married
00:04:57who wants to.
00:04:58Who knows?
00:04:59Maybe marriage equality
00:05:00will stay.
00:05:01It could not.
00:05:05And it wasn't required
00:05:07to be gay to do this,
00:05:09but I have a lot of awesome
00:05:11gay fans,
00:05:13and I think maybe 80%
00:05:15of the couples were queer.
00:05:17And it was just nice to do.
00:05:19When we were in Los Angeles
00:05:26together earlier this year
00:05:27and I got to watch you
00:05:29direct the video
00:05:30for Best Guess,
00:05:31a single off Forever
00:05:32is a Feeling,
00:05:34that song is incredibly romantic,
00:05:36I think,
00:05:37but it's also a little bit
00:05:38of an argument
00:05:39against the idea
00:05:40of a soulmate.
00:05:41You know,
00:05:42you're letting uncertainty
00:05:43into the room
00:05:44a little bit
00:05:45with the choruses,
00:05:46because you're my best guess
00:05:47at the future.
00:05:49Not a terrible wedding vow,
00:05:50incidentally.
00:05:52Can you talk a little bit
00:05:54about those lyrics
00:05:55and the sort of sentiment
00:05:56expressed in that song?
00:05:58Yeah,
00:05:59it's pretty plain,
00:06:00you know,
00:06:01like,
00:06:02I can't promise anything
00:06:03because nobody really can,
00:06:06but having, like,
00:06:08a gut feeling
00:06:08that it might stay that way
00:06:10is enough
00:06:10for the present moment.
00:06:12And I think through my life
00:06:16until recently,
00:06:17like,
00:06:17the idea that
00:06:18I can't promise something
00:06:20would, like,
00:06:20keep me from engaging with it.
00:06:23And that just keeps you
00:06:25from so many beautiful things.
00:06:28And just going wholeheartedly
00:06:31into something,
00:06:32knowing that it might not last,
00:06:34is very brave.
00:06:35And I see that happening
00:06:37with all these couples
00:06:38that I've been marrying,
00:06:39is, like,
00:06:41they're making this decision
00:06:42really quickly.
00:06:43Like,
00:06:43I think I posted the link,
00:06:44like,
00:06:44three days before our first
00:06:46date of tour,
00:06:47and, like,
00:06:47seven couples
00:06:48made that decision
00:06:49in that three-day period.
00:06:51And I just think
00:06:53it's ballsy
00:06:54and cool
00:06:55and, like,
00:06:58love will not
00:06:59stay the same,
00:06:59but why not just, like,
00:07:02give it everything you have
00:07:03while it's there?
00:07:05A beautiful idea.
00:07:07Rufus,
00:07:08you have a very
00:07:08gorgeous song.
00:07:09One of my favorites of yours
00:07:10called Peaceful Afternoon
00:07:12that sort of nods
00:07:14at the same idea,
00:07:15but between sex and death
00:07:17and trying to keep
00:07:18the kitchen clean,
00:07:19remember wild roses
00:07:21bloom best in ruin.
00:07:22It's such a gorgeous lyric.
00:07:24You've been married
00:07:25for 13 years.
00:07:26Do you have any advice
00:07:27to Lucy's newlyweds?
00:07:29Yeah.
00:07:29Well, yeah,
00:07:30I've been with my husband,
00:07:32Jorn,
00:07:32for almost 20,
00:07:33and we've been married
00:07:34for 13.
00:07:36And, look,
00:07:37I think
00:07:38what's...
00:07:40My favorite
00:07:41sort of marriage story
00:07:43in general
00:07:43as a queer person
00:07:44and when it really
00:07:45kind of struck me
00:07:46is that
00:07:47many years ago,
00:07:49a friend of mine,
00:07:50Van Dyke Parks,
00:07:52who's a great producer
00:07:53and musician
00:07:54from L.A.
00:07:55anyways,
00:07:55but he was celebrating
00:07:57his...
00:07:58I think it was
00:07:59his 50th anniversary
00:08:00with his wife
00:08:01or 30th anniversary,
00:08:02something,
00:08:03a big number.
00:08:04And I turned to him
00:08:06and I said,
00:08:07wow,
00:08:09did you think
00:08:10you'd be married
00:08:10for 30 years?
00:08:12And he went,
00:08:13Rufus,
00:08:14marriage is forever.
00:08:16I mean,
00:08:16that's the point.
00:08:18And it kind of struck me
00:08:20that that just did not exist
00:08:21in my mind.
00:08:22Like, as a gay person,
00:08:24I had no...
00:08:26I had no kind of
00:08:27blueprint
00:08:29to refer to
00:08:31in terms of
00:08:32that whole concept.
00:08:34So, you know,
00:08:35so after Jorn and I
00:08:36were together
00:08:36for about five years,
00:08:37we decided to get married
00:08:39and, yeah,
00:08:41it is this thing of...
00:08:44I think probably now
00:08:46after 13 years
00:08:47and 20 years together,
00:08:49I think the one thing
00:08:51that really is so strange
00:08:52special about it
00:08:53and great
00:08:54but also quite difficult
00:08:55and challenging
00:08:56is you really
00:08:58have to work hard
00:08:59to keep it going, you know?
00:09:01You really have to do
00:09:01every possible thing
00:09:03you can
00:09:04to make it last.
00:09:07And, you know,
00:09:07it may or may not
00:09:08in the end,
00:09:09but you really have
00:09:09to fight for it.
00:09:10And that's important to do
00:09:13for anything
00:09:14you're passionate about.
00:09:15So you've both spoken...
00:09:19You can cheers for that.
00:09:21No, it's such true.
00:09:22Such true and good advice.
00:09:25So you've both spoken
00:09:26about feeling
00:09:26some level of dissonance
00:09:29with your families,
00:09:30you know,
00:09:31specifically as it relates
00:09:32to coming of age
00:09:33as a queer person.
00:09:34You know, Lucy,
00:09:35you were adopted.
00:09:36We've talked about this.
00:09:37Grew up in a very
00:09:37religious household.
00:09:39Rufus, you've also spoken
00:09:40about feeling tension
00:09:41with your parents
00:09:42surrounding your sexuality.
00:09:43I'm curious for each of you.
00:09:45How did you metabolize that?
00:09:47And how, if at all,
00:09:49has it influenced your work
00:09:50or who you are as artists?
00:09:53Okay.
00:09:54I'll go first.
00:09:57What can I say?
00:09:59You know, my parents...
00:10:00Sadly, my mother
00:10:01is no longer with us.
00:10:03The great Kate McGarrigal.
00:10:05Yes.
00:10:06But Loudon is still...
00:10:08He still sings
00:10:09and performs.
00:10:12And we actually have
00:10:13a wonderful relationship now,
00:10:14him and I.
00:10:15And we've worked very hard
00:10:16to create that.
00:10:17I do sort of, though,
00:10:20like to,
00:10:22how should I say,
00:10:23own the fact
00:10:24that my parents
00:10:25were terrible
00:10:26when I came out.
00:10:27They were both terrible.
00:10:28My mother,
00:10:30a little worse.
00:10:31I mean,
00:10:31she wanted to kick me
00:10:31out of the house.
00:10:34She, you know,
00:10:34all of her kind of
00:10:35latent Catholic
00:10:36stuff came out.
00:10:39My dad just didn't want
00:10:40to address it at all
00:10:41and pretended like
00:10:42nothing was happening
00:10:42or would ask me
00:10:44very strange questions
00:10:46at very odd times.
00:10:48And whatever.
00:10:50Neither of them
00:10:51did a very good job.
00:10:52That being said,
00:10:53they get a bit of
00:10:54a hall pass
00:10:55because AIDS
00:10:56was happening
00:10:57at that time.
00:10:57And I was 13
00:10:58when I knew
00:10:59what was going on.
00:11:00So I think
00:11:01everybody was just
00:11:02scared shitless
00:11:02regardless.
00:11:03Yeah, you know,
00:11:05the unfortunate thing
00:11:06is that it's a kind
00:11:08of wound
00:11:08that never heals.
00:11:09I mean, as much as
00:11:10my mother would want
00:11:13to say sorry
00:11:14or my father,
00:11:15it's a constant wound
00:11:19that you have to
00:11:21sort of really
00:11:22be cognizant of.
00:11:24Really, I think,
00:11:25probably until you die.
00:11:26But that also makes
00:11:29you, you know,
00:11:30there's gifts
00:11:31in that as well.
00:11:33You know,
00:11:33you become more
00:11:34emotional,
00:11:35you become more
00:11:36sensitive to things
00:11:37and you certainly
00:11:38become more creative.
00:11:40So, yeah.
00:11:41So thanks for
00:11:41fucking me up.
00:11:42Okay.
00:11:45Oh my God,
00:11:46I was just listening
00:11:46and not thinking
00:11:47about what I was
00:11:47going to say.
00:11:48Well, I wouldn't
00:11:54like to have found
00:11:56out the way
00:11:56my mom found out
00:11:57which is that
00:11:58I kind of
00:11:58accidentally
00:11:59came out
00:12:00to NPR
00:12:01because someone
00:12:05like asked me
00:12:05directly,
00:12:06actually,
00:12:07someone was
00:12:08asking me about
00:12:09like Julian
00:12:10who I'm with
00:12:12and we were
00:12:13just becoming
00:12:14friends at the time
00:12:15and they were like,
00:12:16what do you have
00:12:16in common?
00:12:17And I was like,
00:12:17oh, we both
00:12:18are religious
00:12:19and Southern
00:12:20and we're both
00:12:22queer.
00:12:23And my mom
00:12:24saw that
00:12:25and called me
00:12:26and was like,
00:12:27you're not queer.
00:12:27What do you mean queer?
00:12:29That's a bad word
00:12:30also.
00:12:30In her time
00:12:33calling somebody
00:12:34queer was mean
00:12:35whereas I feel like
00:12:36that's the best word
00:12:37for me.
00:12:39And, yeah,
00:12:41time just worked
00:12:42on it.
00:12:43I actually saw her
00:12:43this morning,
00:12:45got breakfast
00:12:45with her
00:12:46and Richard
00:12:47who's here,
00:12:49her longtime friend.
00:12:52I think that
00:12:53I don't have kids
00:12:54but I imagine
00:12:55like when they
00:12:57are becoming
00:12:58themself,
00:12:59you feel like
00:12:59you have the right
00:13:00to know first
00:13:01because you know
00:13:02everything so far.
00:13:04but as a kid
00:13:06it's like,
00:13:07it's very special
00:13:08to know that
00:13:09and keep it
00:13:11in a way
00:13:11so that it's not
00:13:12anyone else's property
00:13:14and, yeah,
00:13:16luckily time
00:13:17has worked on it.
00:13:21Rufus,
00:13:21I wanted to ask you
00:13:22a little bit
00:13:23about a period
00:13:24in the early 90s
00:13:24when you were just
00:13:25beginning your career.
00:13:27I'd imagine
00:13:28what you were doing
00:13:29kind of making
00:13:29this highly melodic
00:13:30sort of playful music
00:13:32that was rooted
00:13:33in the American songbook,
00:13:34rooted in opera.
00:13:36It must have felt
00:13:37at odds
00:13:37in some fundamental way
00:13:39with the zeitgeist
00:13:40at that moment.
00:13:41I mean,
00:13:41it certainly wasn't grunge.
00:13:44You know,
00:13:44how did you sort of
00:13:45navigate that disconnect?
00:13:47Well,
00:13:47when they make the movie
00:13:49there will be scenes
00:13:52from that period
00:13:53in the 90s,
00:13:53early 90s
00:13:54when I was in New York,
00:13:56I was in Manhattan
00:13:56and sending my tapes
00:14:00to all these
00:14:00kind of grunge bars
00:14:01and then going
00:14:04to collect them
00:14:05like the next day
00:14:07because they were just,
00:14:08sorry,
00:14:08this isn't going to work
00:14:09and I had like
00:14:09a little bow tie on
00:14:10and stuff
00:14:11and playing piano
00:14:12and listening to opera.
00:14:13No,
00:14:13it did not work
00:14:14what I was doing
00:14:15at all
00:14:16because at the time,
00:14:18especially,
00:14:19that was really
00:14:20the birth,
00:14:21at least in my little
00:14:22neck of the woods,
00:14:24of Jeff Buckley.
00:14:25He was like the,
00:14:26he was the god
00:14:27of downtown
00:14:28and so I hated his guts
00:14:31but so yeah,
00:14:35no,
00:14:35I never felt like I fit in.
00:14:36It was really
00:14:36when I went to California
00:14:37and I got more
00:14:38into sort of
00:14:39the Beach Boys thing
00:14:40or Brian Wilson
00:14:42and Harry Nielsen
00:14:44and that kind of tradition
00:14:45of a more kind of
00:14:46psychedelic thing
00:14:47where it worked out
00:14:48well for me.
00:14:49That being said,
00:14:50I did end up
00:14:51hanging out one night
00:14:52with Jeff Buckley
00:14:54and unfortunately,
00:14:56he died like a couple
00:14:57of weeks later
00:14:58but that one,
00:14:59I was so happy
00:15:00that I got to meet him
00:15:01because I had harbored
00:15:03such resentment
00:15:04from that period.
00:15:06I wouldn't listen
00:15:06to any of his records.
00:15:07I, you know,
00:15:08wouldn't go see
00:15:09any of his shows
00:15:09but then when I met him
00:15:12and we had this
00:15:12amazing evening,
00:15:13it was such a lesson
00:15:15because I was just,
00:15:16I realized how stupid
00:15:18I'd been
00:15:18by harboring
00:15:19that kind of resentment
00:15:21towards another artist
00:15:22and how we just have to be,
00:15:25you know,
00:15:25we're all on the same team
00:15:26kind of thing
00:15:27so yeah.
00:15:29Lucy,
00:15:29have you ever had
00:15:30a moment like that
00:15:30where you felt
00:15:32competitive?
00:15:33a moment where I feel
00:15:36humbled or?
00:15:38No, competitive.
00:15:40Oh, competitive.
00:15:40Where you looked
00:15:41at what someone else
00:15:42was doing and thought.
00:15:43Oh, wait a second.
00:15:46I have not.
00:15:52Good answer.
00:15:54Perfect answer.
00:15:55We'll move on.
00:15:59Rufus,
00:16:00you've also talked
00:16:01about that period.
00:16:04All right.
00:16:04Your first three albums
00:16:05or so
00:16:06is a time
00:16:06when you were maybe
00:16:07a little bit wild
00:16:08and a little bit lost.
00:16:10I think there's
00:16:11this pervasive
00:16:12and maybe not
00:16:12entirely untrue
00:16:14idea that chaos
00:16:16can be really generative
00:16:17for an artist,
00:16:18that pain can be
00:16:18really generative
00:16:19for an artist.
00:16:20Did you find
00:16:21that it fed
00:16:22your songwriting?
00:16:23Oh, yeah.
00:16:24No, I mean,
00:16:24I look,
00:16:25I don't recommend
00:16:27getting lost
00:16:29and doing all sorts
00:16:30of horrible things,
00:16:32but if you do,
00:16:34you'll,
00:16:35you know,
00:16:36just use it.
00:16:37No, I don't know.
00:16:38I mean,
00:16:39I think whatever
00:16:42it is that I did
00:16:43and I think,
00:16:44and it is whatever
00:16:45anybody does
00:16:46in whatever way
00:16:47you do it,
00:16:48is that you just,
00:16:49it has to be matched
00:16:50with work
00:16:50and discipline
00:16:51and a sense
00:16:53of purpose
00:16:53and a sense
00:16:54of, you know,
00:16:54getting up
00:16:55and getting
00:16:56the job done.
00:16:57So,
00:16:57so I think
00:16:58any of that
00:16:58kind of like
00:16:59decadence
00:17:02and,
00:17:02you know,
00:17:03stuff
00:17:05was always coupled
00:17:06with a real
00:17:07work ethic.
00:17:08So,
00:17:09but yes,
00:17:10I did chose
00:17:10to go down
00:17:11that line,
00:17:12that path,
00:17:14you know,
00:17:15and,
00:17:15yeah,
00:17:17yeah.
00:17:19You're back.
00:17:20I'm back.
00:17:21I'm back.
00:17:21I'm back.
00:17:21Lucy,
00:17:23what about you?
00:17:24Is there a state
00:17:25of mind
00:17:26that you find
00:17:26particularly conducive
00:17:28to songwriting,
00:17:29whether it be,
00:17:29you know,
00:17:30boredom
00:17:30or contentment
00:17:31or anger
00:17:32or,
00:17:33I don't know,
00:17:34heart sickness?
00:17:36I think emptiness
00:17:37and like
00:17:39liminal spaces.
00:17:42I write a lot
00:17:43when I'm walking
00:17:44and I think
00:17:45being out
00:17:46of context.
00:17:47Actually,
00:17:48I saw Zadie Smith
00:17:49speak on the stage
00:17:50yesterday
00:17:51and she said
00:17:53that about writing,
00:17:54that like writing
00:17:55on a plane,
00:17:56like being out
00:17:56of context
00:17:57is very helpful
00:17:58and I feel
00:17:59the same way.
00:18:01A context
00:18:01can be very
00:18:02like heavy.
00:18:05But there's also
00:18:06something about walking,
00:18:07like it stimulates
00:18:09both sides
00:18:09of your brain.
00:18:10It's kind of like
00:18:10EMDR light.
00:18:12So,
00:18:13when you're walking,
00:18:14everything's knocking
00:18:15around in there,
00:18:16which is a good
00:18:17recipe for...
00:18:18I love walking
00:18:19and writing.
00:18:20That's my thing.
00:18:21Great.
00:18:21They say for reporters,
00:18:23it's always really great
00:18:24to interview a subject
00:18:25while they're driving
00:18:26a car
00:18:26because they will be
00:18:27sort of just
00:18:28distracted enough
00:18:29that something
00:18:30sort of opens up.
00:18:33Maybe it's a similar
00:18:33kind of thing.
00:18:34I don't know,
00:18:34your conscious mind
00:18:35gets kind of occupied
00:18:37by the work
00:18:38of walking
00:18:38and I don't know,
00:18:39something loosens
00:18:40in you.
00:18:41I mean,
00:18:41that makes sense
00:18:41to me.
00:18:43I have a very
00:18:43strange thing
00:18:44that happens
00:18:44where I like
00:18:46to write a lot
00:18:46backstage
00:18:47before I do a show.
00:18:48Oh, me too.
00:18:49And I get kind of
00:18:50wrapped up
00:18:51in the songwriting
00:18:53process
00:18:53and I forget
00:18:54that I'm backstage
00:18:55and that I have a show
00:18:56and I swear to God,
00:18:59it's like clockwork.
00:19:01Every time,
00:19:02it's like two minutes
00:19:04before I have to go
00:19:04on stage,
00:19:05I'll get like
00:19:06a great idea,
00:19:07you know,
00:19:08and then they're like,
00:19:08you're on,
00:19:09you're on
00:19:09and then I have to,
00:19:10I don't know,
00:19:10it's like a strange game
00:19:12that the muses
00:19:14play with me
00:19:14where they,
00:19:16yeah,
00:19:17so my life's really tough.
00:19:20Do you ever write
00:19:22while you're on stage?
00:19:24I don't do that.
00:19:25No, do you do that?
00:19:26Wow.
00:19:26I had this crazy experience.
00:19:28The first show
00:19:29of this album tour
00:19:30was in Philly
00:19:31and this was like,
00:19:33yeah,
00:19:34fact check,
00:19:35New Yorker fact check,
00:19:36yes,
00:19:37and I wrote like,
00:19:42there's this,
00:19:43I just put out
00:19:44like 10 more songs
00:19:47and versions
00:19:47of the songs,
00:19:48it's called like
00:19:49The Archive
00:19:49or whatever
00:19:50but there's one new song
00:19:51called Losing
00:19:51and I wrote that
00:19:53the first night
00:19:53of touring
00:19:54in my head
00:19:55while I was singing
00:19:56a different song
00:19:57and I had never
00:19:57had that experience
00:19:58and it was quite scary.
00:20:01I was just like,
00:20:02how is my brain
00:20:03doing both things?
00:20:04I hope I remember this
00:20:06and just having
00:20:06kind of like
00:20:07a parallel conversation.
00:20:10I don't know
00:20:11if I like it
00:20:12but you just have
00:20:13to listen
00:20:14whenever you're meant to.
00:20:15Take that, AI.
00:20:16chat GPT could never.
00:20:25I think you're both
00:20:28obviously each
00:20:29such powerful vocalists
00:20:30but you also do a lot
00:20:32with restraint.
00:20:33I feel like there's always
00:20:34a lot of air
00:20:35in the work
00:20:36and I wanted to ask
00:20:37each of you
00:20:37how you think about
00:20:38quiet
00:20:39or blank space
00:20:41as a creative tool.
00:20:42The most important
00:20:45thing is quiet
00:20:46and I say that
00:20:48wholeheartedly
00:20:50and I think
00:20:51it's Mozart
00:20:53who said that
00:20:53or something.
00:20:54I mean,
00:20:54it's really
00:20:55the spaces
00:20:55in between.
00:20:57Like the organization
00:20:57of silence.
00:20:58Yeah,
00:20:59that's,
00:20:59I don't know,
00:21:01that is where
00:21:03everything is happening.
00:21:04So,
00:21:05yeah,
00:21:05so it's
00:21:06very important to me
00:21:07and you were saying
00:21:08downstairs
00:21:09when we were,
00:21:10we did the mini
00:21:12New Yorker
00:21:13interview.
00:21:14It was like
00:21:15for social media
00:21:17downstairs
00:21:17but then I thought
00:21:18they said
00:21:19this was the mini
00:21:20New Yorker interview
00:21:22and we were on like
00:21:23This is the big one.
00:21:25Okay,
00:21:25good,
00:21:25we're at the big one.
00:21:26Good.
00:21:27But you said
00:21:28it was silence
00:21:29something very,
00:21:30I thought it was very sweet
00:21:31wanting more silence,
00:21:32yeah?
00:21:32Yeah.
00:21:33The question
00:21:34we pulled out of a bag
00:21:35and I was like
00:21:35what have you learned
00:21:37about yourself this year?
00:21:37And I was like
00:21:38I need so much more silence
00:21:39than I thought I did
00:21:40and you just
00:21:42like
00:21:43how do you synthesize
00:21:44all of this
00:21:45without pausing?
00:21:47Like,
00:21:47I'm just realizing
00:21:48I haven't been.
00:21:50So.
00:21:51Actually,
00:21:51not to get too,
00:21:52I mean,
00:21:52on the subject of silence
00:21:54it's quite intense
00:21:55but my mother,
00:21:56the late,
00:21:57great Kay McGarrigle
00:21:58who was an incredible
00:21:59songwriter,
00:22:00incredible pianist,
00:22:01great,
00:22:01she played banjo
00:22:02and everything.
00:22:04She
00:22:04passed away
00:22:06from cancer
00:22:07and she spent
00:22:09a lot of time
00:22:10writing
00:22:12near the end
00:22:13of her life
00:22:13certain songs
00:22:15and stuff
00:22:15and reading
00:22:16but mostly writing.
00:22:18She wrote an amazing song
00:22:18called Proserpina
00:22:19about the Persephone myth.
00:22:22Anyways,
00:22:22but that happened
00:22:23but then really
00:22:24at the last
00:22:25week
00:22:26you couldn't have
00:22:28any music.
00:22:29There had to be
00:22:30complete silence
00:22:31you know
00:22:31because it was just
00:22:32you know
00:22:32that is the most
00:22:33beautiful thing.
00:22:35Yeah.
00:22:35Lucy,
00:22:36you briefly used
00:22:37the phrase
00:22:37the organization
00:22:38of silence
00:22:39a minute ago.
00:22:41That's part
00:22:42of your songwriting
00:22:42process.
00:22:43I mean,
00:22:43that's a lovely way
00:22:44to think about
00:22:44putting a song together.
00:22:45I've found
00:22:47that any line
00:22:48that you write
00:22:49and then you
00:22:50put a pause
00:22:51after it
00:22:51if you show it
00:22:52to people
00:22:53they say back
00:22:54the line
00:22:55that has the pause
00:22:56after it
00:22:56they say
00:22:57oh this line
00:22:58and I'm like
00:23:00I think it was
00:23:02the pause
00:23:03that let you
00:23:03listen to that
00:23:04and I have a bunch
00:23:06of like extremely
00:23:06wordy songs
00:23:07like I'm
00:23:08I'm breathing
00:23:09like all my
00:23:11my breaths
00:23:11are so
00:23:12specific
00:23:14because there's
00:23:14only a few times
00:23:15when they can
00:23:15happen in a song
00:23:16for some of them
00:23:17but yeah
00:23:19I think
00:23:19I'm realizing
00:23:21I need to be
00:23:22paying attention
00:23:22to that more
00:23:23because it is
00:23:24always pretty
00:23:25effective.
00:23:26I'm curious
00:23:26for each of you
00:23:28to what extent
00:23:29does songwriting
00:23:29feel sometimes
00:23:31like a sort
00:23:32of supernatural
00:23:32conjuring
00:23:33and to what extent
00:23:35does it feel
00:23:35like a job?
00:23:37I personally
00:23:39think that if it
00:23:39started to feel
00:23:40like a job
00:23:40I'd have to quit
00:23:41the job.
00:23:43However
00:23:44writing for other
00:23:45people
00:23:45is the best
00:23:46job.
00:23:47I love it.
00:23:48Like I
00:23:49listen to
00:23:50anyone I write
00:23:51with I'll listen
00:23:52to everything
00:23:52they've done
00:23:53chronologically
00:23:54and I try to
00:23:55get in their
00:23:55head of like
00:23:56what they've
00:23:56already said
00:23:57what they like
00:23:58to talk about
00:23:58what they might
00:23:59be sick of
00:24:00like are they
00:24:01adventurous
00:24:01or are they
00:24:02trying to get
00:24:02even deeper
00:24:03into an idea
00:24:05and yeah
00:24:08that feels
00:24:09more like a job
00:24:10it feels so
00:24:10much easier
00:24:11because there's
00:24:12like this
00:24:12set context
00:24:14whereas for
00:24:16my stuff
00:24:16it's like
00:24:17I don't
00:24:19even get
00:24:21to ask myself
00:24:21if I like
00:24:22it or not
00:24:22I just have
00:24:23to do it.
00:24:24I mean I
00:24:28unfortunately
00:24:29think it's
00:24:29completely
00:24:30you know
00:24:31spiritual
00:24:32and messages
00:24:33from the
00:24:35gods
00:24:35and I get
00:24:36totally wrapped
00:24:36up and
00:24:37possessed by
00:24:38it and
00:24:38and it kind
00:24:40of ruins
00:24:40my life
00:24:41at times
00:24:41but I
00:24:43have that
00:24:44kind of
00:24:45sense with
00:24:46it.
00:24:46That being
00:24:47said
00:24:47recently
00:24:49I did a
00:24:50musical
00:24:50I wrote
00:24:50a musical
00:24:51called
00:24:51Opening
00:24:52Night
00:24:52which was
00:24:53in London
00:24:53and I
00:24:55was working
00:24:56with Ivo
00:24:56Vanhove
00:24:57this very
00:24:58Belgian
00:24:59director
00:24:59and
00:25:00very good
00:25:02very good
00:25:03but also
00:25:03very Belgian
00:25:04and
00:25:05anyways
00:25:07but I was
00:25:08really put
00:25:09to my
00:25:09paces
00:25:09like I
00:25:10had to
00:25:10write songs
00:25:11that
00:25:11corresponded
00:25:13to the
00:25:13plot
00:25:13or to
00:25:14what the
00:25:14character
00:25:15was feeling
00:25:15and I
00:25:15had to
00:25:16kind of
00:25:16get out
00:25:17of the
00:25:17whole
00:25:18kind of
00:25:19celestial
00:25:19connection
00:25:20that I
00:25:21was feeling
00:25:21with lyrics
00:25:22and melodies
00:25:23I just
00:25:23it had to
00:25:24sort of
00:25:24translate
00:25:24to a
00:25:25very
00:25:25you know
00:25:26basic
00:25:27on a
00:25:27basic
00:25:27level
00:25:28and that
00:25:28was a
00:25:28great
00:25:29exercise
00:25:29and to
00:25:31make it
00:25:31a little
00:25:31less
00:25:32holy
00:25:33and stuff
00:25:34so I
00:25:36enjoyed
00:25:36sort of
00:25:37that
00:25:37shifting
00:25:37it
00:25:38for that
00:25:38I enjoyed
00:25:39that
00:25:39I'm also
00:25:40curious
00:25:41for each
00:25:41of you
00:25:42have you
00:25:43ever had
00:25:43the experience
00:25:44of learning
00:25:45something
00:25:46about yourself
00:25:47from the
00:25:48process of
00:25:49songwriting
00:25:49you know
00:25:50it's something
00:25:51that you
00:25:51wouldn't have
00:25:51discovered
00:25:52any other
00:25:52way
00:25:52but became
00:25:53evident
00:25:54to you
00:25:55through a
00:25:55lyric
00:25:55or a
00:25:56melody
00:25:56some sort
00:25:57of lightning
00:25:57strike
00:25:57of self
00:25:58discovery
00:25:58that emerged
00:25:59from the
00:26:00work
00:26:00I would say
00:26:01almost every
00:26:02song
00:26:02that's also
00:26:03I would say
00:26:05why I
00:26:06write songs
00:26:07anyways
00:26:08is to just
00:26:09figure out
00:26:09what I think
00:26:10or what I
00:26:12feel
00:26:12which is
00:26:13hard to do
00:26:14maybe some
00:26:15people find it
00:26:16easy
00:26:16but I don't
00:26:18find it easy
00:26:18without this
00:26:19other thing
00:26:21yeah
00:26:23there's a song
00:26:24I'm gonna play
00:26:25later that I
00:26:25wrote and
00:26:26broke up with
00:26:27someone after
00:26:28writing it
00:26:30yeah
00:26:32yeah
00:26:33yeah
00:26:36it's about
00:26:37me
00:26:37no just
00:26:38kidding
00:26:38no just
00:26:40kidding
00:26:40no I mean
00:26:44what I have
00:26:46realized of
00:26:46late and I'm
00:26:47a little older
00:26:48I'm now
00:26:4952 and
00:26:51I've been doing
00:26:51this since I
00:26:52was 12
00:26:52really that was
00:26:54my first single
00:26:55I released when
00:26:55I was 12
00:26:56and I sang before
00:26:57that with my
00:26:58mother and stuff
00:26:58but so I've
00:26:59been doing it
00:26:59a long time
00:27:00and what I
00:27:02have definitely
00:27:03discovered over
00:27:04the last few
00:27:05years and this
00:27:05is also especially
00:27:06after having a
00:27:07kid where you
00:27:09have someone who
00:27:10has absolutely
00:27:11no interest in
00:27:12what you do
00:27:12and it's totally
00:27:14like nonplus by
00:27:16your entire
00:27:16existence you
00:27:18know in certain
00:27:18ways but
00:27:20anyways but I
00:27:21kind of felt
00:27:22that I had
00:27:24created this
00:27:25pretty vicious
00:27:27machine
00:27:29of you know
00:27:30feeling sad
00:27:32writing a song
00:27:33about it
00:27:34kind of getting
00:27:34feeling more
00:27:35powerful I guess
00:27:36not necessarily
00:27:37better but more
00:27:38powerful and then
00:27:39riding on that
00:27:40power and other
00:27:41people doing it
00:27:41and then getting
00:27:43tired and then a
00:27:43little sad and then
00:27:44a song and it's
00:27:45like and it's
00:27:46quite diabolical
00:27:47and I think what
00:27:48I've mainly learned
00:27:50is that yes I'm
00:27:50happy that that
00:27:51exists and I'm
00:27:53very fortunate to
00:27:53be able to do
00:27:54that and I don't
00:27:56think I'll stop
00:27:56that being said
00:27:58you gotta be
00:27:58able to get
00:27:59off the hamster
00:28:01wheel a little
00:28:02bit and that's
00:28:03sort of something
00:28:03that now as an
00:28:04older person I'm
00:28:06realizing like you
00:28:07just gotta take
00:28:07time off and do
00:28:08nothing for five
00:28:09seconds and not
00:28:10worry about it so
00:28:11so if anything I've
00:28:13learned just that
00:28:14I'm a human being
00:28:15and that I need to
00:28:17sort of take care of
00:28:18myself you know
00:28:19that's not a bad
00:28:20lesson well it sort
00:28:22of segues into my
00:28:23next question which
00:28:24is one thing I've
00:28:25always found really
00:28:26fascinating about the
00:28:27musician's life is
00:28:29that it's kind of
00:28:30inherently demarcated
00:28:31into eras I mean
00:28:33even since long
00:28:34before Taylor Swift
00:28:35gave that concept a
00:28:37name you know a
00:28:38record comes out
00:28:39there's a feeling to
00:28:40it there's an
00:28:41aesthetic there's a
00:28:42look there's maybe
00:28:43there's a statement of
00:28:44intent there's a tour
00:28:45it's a moment in
00:28:46time then you start
00:28:48over essentially I
00:28:49would imagine that
00:28:50that can be both
00:28:51challenging and also
00:28:52sort of thrilling so
00:28:54I wanted to ask you
00:28:55both how do you
00:28:55manage the pressure
00:28:57of of reinvention
00:28:59pay 15% of your
00:29:06income to somebody
00:29:07to figure it out
00:29:08I was gonna say
00:29:11like yeah god bless
00:29:12the agents and
00:29:13managers I I like
00:29:18I forget if someone
00:29:21told me this in high
00:29:22school if I just
00:29:22thought it in high
00:29:23school like you
00:29:24don't have to try to
00:29:26have a personality
00:29:27you just have one
00:29:28like you can work
00:29:29on it you can change
00:29:31however you want but
00:29:32like it doesn't take
00:29:33effort to be a person
00:29:34because like you
00:29:35could stop putting in
00:29:36the effort and there
00:29:36you are still being a
00:29:37person and so I don't
00:29:39really personally feel
00:29:41it as pressure to
00:29:42evolve because if
00:29:44anything like sometimes
00:29:47life is so good and
00:29:48you want to push pause
00:29:50and be like I'm done
00:29:51evolving I'm good
00:29:53with this but then
00:29:54like the evolving
00:29:55just comes for you
00:29:56anyways and so that
00:30:00that's actually the
00:30:02tension is the wanting
00:30:04to stay in one place
00:30:05and never being allowed
00:30:06to in my life
00:30:08yeah I love that I
00:30:10think that's so true
00:30:11all right you both
00:30:13make music that kind
00:30:14of exists I suppose on
00:30:16the periphery of what
00:30:17I would maybe call pop
00:30:18and therefore someone
00:30:19on the periphery of
00:30:20the marketplace I mean
00:30:22Rufus maybe we can
00:30:23start with you how
00:30:24much do you think
00:30:25about how much do
00:30:28you think about or
00:30:28even covet that sort
00:30:32of big broad
00:30:33commercial success I
00:30:34mean of someone again
00:30:35like Taylor Swift like
00:30:36I did you regard that
00:30:38and think like oh
00:30:39interesting or do you
00:30:40think not for me well
00:30:42I mean I have a very
00:30:43bizarre kind of tale
00:30:45attached to my to my
00:30:47career where you know
00:30:49I was signed to
00:30:51DreamWorks Records
00:30:52which at the time in
00:30:53the in the mid 90s was
00:30:54the biggest entertainment
00:30:56company in the universe
00:30:57I mean everybody they
00:30:58had film they had
00:30:59animation and it was
00:31:01right at the beginning
00:31:02and I was the first
00:31:02artist signed to that
00:31:04label and it was a
00:31:05whole kind of parade of
00:31:08of of of of people just
00:31:10wanting to know me and
00:31:12have and I hadn't even
00:31:13put out a record yet so
00:31:14so I I kind of and I
00:31:15so I kind of started
00:31:16with that then I you
00:31:18know made the records
00:31:19that I wanted to make
00:31:20and I and I was working
00:31:20with you know Lenny
00:31:21Walker who would made
00:31:22some who's made great
00:31:24records with Randy Newman
00:31:25and Mo Austin all these
00:31:26classic record people and
00:31:28so I was I was but it
00:31:29was like probably the
00:31:30last time that I that
00:31:31that had ever occurred in
00:31:32that fashion because
00:31:34nobody else was going
00:31:35through that so I was
00:31:36really spoiled and and
00:31:40and and and and and
00:31:41and thus given sort of
00:31:43this terrible misconception
00:31:45that you know you have to
00:31:46constantly try to you
00:31:48know have a hit and stuff
00:31:50when those weren't really
00:31:51the records that I was
00:31:52making at all so yeah it's
00:31:57a nightmare and but I love
00:31:59it and yeah this next record
00:32:03is going to be a huge hit
00:32:04and I'm going to make
00:32:05billions of dollars so
00:32:06hell yeah help
00:32:10what about you I mean
00:32:16what's your relationship
00:32:16to to that the
00:32:18marketplace yeah I don't
00:32:20know to fame celebrity
00:32:22to sort of do whatever
00:32:23it takes okay yeah
00:32:24there's so many ways to
00:32:28talk about this like if
00:32:29if you were just talking
00:32:30about money I think it's
00:32:32something that everyone
00:32:33experiences like the fear
00:32:35of not having enough
00:32:36especially as things get
00:32:38more expensive and housing
00:32:39is more scarce and food
00:32:41is more expensive and we
00:32:43feel as though the
00:32:44government is failing us
00:32:45and like I don't know I
00:32:47can get really spirally
00:32:49about things like that and
00:32:50also this job you don't
00:32:51get hired or fired you
00:32:53just are doing something
00:32:55and people either care or
00:32:57not and that also feels
00:32:59very emotional because you
00:33:01also could work on
00:33:02something for 10 years
00:33:03or 10 minutes and
00:33:04there'd be a way
00:33:05different like there's
00:33:06nothing concrete so I
00:33:09guess I have had fear
00:33:10come in plenty in my life
00:33:13in that case but I do
00:33:15think that you can go
00:33:16about almost anything in
00:33:19a way that you can still
00:33:20make yourself proud like
00:33:23for I'm calling you guys
00:33:24out you have like shirts
00:33:25of mine and I walked out
00:33:27and I was like oh my god
00:33:28cool and like I hope you
00:33:29keep that and it's not
00:33:30trash to you like you
00:33:32know you can make
00:33:33something with heart like
00:33:35I would not say I have
00:33:36the same amount of heart
00:33:37in a shirt that I do a
00:33:38song but still something
00:33:39that you can be proud of
00:33:41and hope that somebody
00:33:42actually wants the same
00:33:43as music like you make
00:33:45it for one reason and
00:33:46hope that people
00:33:47incorporate it into their
00:33:49lives and I don't know
00:33:52there's really so many
00:33:53ways I could be talking
00:33:54about this but I'm gonna
00:33:55just leave it well I've
00:33:56always found it so
00:33:57fucking cool that Boy
00:33:58Genius sort of went on
00:34:00hiatus right like almost
00:34:01at the exact peak of Boy
00:34:03Genius frenzy was when
00:34:05you guys realized like
00:34:06well we need a break we're
00:34:07just gonna sort of take a
00:34:08pause on this I think that
00:34:09was incredibly courageous
00:34:10and cool well we decided
00:34:13that it would be over after
00:34:15a year before it started so
00:34:16before anyone heard it was
00:34:18happening we knew and it
00:34:19was ending and that
00:34:20informed all of our
00:34:21decisions about what we
00:34:22would do because that pace
00:34:24was unsustainable and I
00:34:26think if we were like oh
00:34:27we're gonna be doing this
00:34:29consistently forever we
00:34:33would have been really much
00:34:34more intimidated but we
00:34:38were like that sounds fun
00:34:39let's do it we got the
00:34:40time that sounds fun and we
00:34:42had to start saying no from
00:34:44the beginning and that was a
00:34:47good lesson to see like you
00:34:48can say no a lot and still
00:34:51have a good time like you can
00:34:53miss out on things and not
00:34:54have missed out on life and
00:34:57it was also just good for
00:35:00our relationships to know
00:35:01that we were not mining
00:35:03each other for our own
00:35:05jobs or resources like it
00:35:08was never the point and yeah
00:35:12felt very healthy I don't
00:35:14know how that applies to
00:35:15other jobs but I whatever
00:35:16practice anyone could make
00:35:18for themselves like I
00:35:20recommend it Lucy Boy
00:35:22genius has a beautiful song
00:35:24called Leonard Cohen all right
00:35:25Rufus you have a daughter with
00:35:27Cohen's daughter Lorca and of
00:35:29course you have famously
00:35:30covered Hallelujah which was
00:35:32just used at a Trump rally by
00:35:33the way
00:35:34wait wait wait wait yes
00:35:37well there's more to that
00:35:39story yeah
00:35:40do you want to
00:35:42sure yeah yeah it's not my
00:35:44question but yeah but yes but
00:35:47please yes because you were
00:35:49quite vocal about saying
00:35:50well no but they used it in a
00:35:52Trump rally before he won the
00:35:55election and it was one of those
00:35:57rallies where he was dancing
00:36:01around and he was DJing
00:36:04basically for his followers and
00:36:09Hallelujah was one of the songs
00:36:10anyway so that happened and I went
00:36:12on the news and talked about it a
00:36:14little bit here and there and I
00:36:15was fine that was it anyways he
00:36:17wins the election Trump and one of
00:36:20the first people down was Justin
00:36:24Trudeau the Prime Minister of Canada
00:36:25so he went down about a week later I
00:36:29got a call from Justin Trudeau the
00:36:31Prime Minister saying who I don't
00:36:33know that well though he is a music
00:36:35fan it seems and anyways but he
00:36:44called me and he went you know
00:36:45Rufus I just need to tell you
00:36:46something kind of funny I was like
00:36:47what is it he's like well I was at
00:36:48Mar-a-Lago and I was sitting next to
00:36:51Trump and there was music playing and
00:36:54then all of a sudden a version of
00:36:56Hallelujah came on but it was Andrea
00:36:58Bocelli singing Hallelujah at which
00:37:01point Trump turned to Justin Trudeau
00:37:04and said you know Rufus Wainwright's
00:37:06version right and Justin said and
00:37:10I'm talking to Justin Trudeau so I'm
00:37:13like okay and then Justin goes yeah he
00:37:17said that to me and then I said to him
00:37:19yes I love Rufus Wainwright's version
00:37:22but you have to give Jeff Buckley some
00:37:24credit because he was the first person
00:37:26to cover the song and I'm like huh
00:37:28like at which point Justin then goes
00:37:35and Trump Trump looked at me and went
00:37:37oh Jeff Buckley anyways and then and
00:37:40then and then apparently 20 minutes
00:37:43later Trump walked up to Justin and
00:37:46said you know what Rufus Wainwright's
00:37:48version is really the best version of
00:37:50Hallelujah and Justin was like yes
00:37:54whatever you say I will say
00:37:58one of my friends here said that
00:38:00yesterday and he is not a rapist racist
00:38:04piece of shit so I figured I would tell
00:38:11that story this is a good place to do it
00:38:12but but what other question I'm very
00:38:14glad you did what I wanted to ask you
00:38:16is is about each of you your
00:38:19relationship to to Cohen's work I mean I
00:38:21certainly hear echoes of it in in in both
00:38:24of your discographies I was hoping you
00:38:25could talk a little bit about what those
00:38:27songs have have meant to you I'll go
00:38:29first cuz it's probably less deep I he's
00:38:33one of those guys that I heard his name
00:38:35and I knew of his place in culture
00:38:37before the music and in a way so many
00:38:39people claimed him so deeply that I felt
00:38:41behind this happens a lot where people
00:38:43like fandoms are so intense that I'm
00:38:45like well that's a group that I'm just
00:38:47not a part of and then you realize you're
00:38:50allowed to listen to the records at any
00:38:51time and so I got into him like later and
00:38:56was just so blown away he's so funny he's
00:39:00so dark he loves hot women and yeah I yeah
00:39:11like Chelsea Hotel is just one of the best
00:39:13written songs I think ever and I just like
00:39:19that he had this like sense of darkness and
00:39:23humor and like I guess in boy genius
00:39:27there's sort of this awareness of darkness
00:39:29and having a sense of humor that I'm not
00:39:33gonna compare but still it's just it feels
00:39:37like a nice guidepost oh well yeah I
00:39:43actually you know I wasn't I didn't know
00:39:44his music that well at all it was really
00:39:46Martha my sister was it was a big Leonard
00:39:49Cohen fan as a teenager I was more into
00:39:50opera anyways but then years later I
00:39:53finally met him and what can I say you
00:39:57know I I do consider the the time that we
00:40:02had together there wasn't a ton of time
00:40:04to be pretty form formative and in terms
00:40:08of things he would say like he'd say
00:40:10things like you know Rufus Jesus said
00:40:12it's more important what comes out of
00:40:15your mouth and what goes into it you
00:40:17know things like little things like that
00:40:19so I had like little little nuggets like
00:40:25that at breakfast and and and and yeah
00:40:31and I and I and I prize you know and I
00:40:33prize our what the relationship that we
00:40:36had and but what I would would say and
00:40:40the legacy that that that I myself try to
00:40:43uphold and that I do feel is is somewhat
00:40:46under threat and and is not on the
00:40:48highest at the highest standard these days
00:40:50is lyrics I mean song lyrics are we got to
00:40:55do better with the song lyrics I think in
00:40:58general you know you know because they it
00:41:02is for me lyrics are the hardest part by
00:41:05far and and and and and and and the bar is
00:41:09so high I mean whether it's Leonard or
00:41:11Dylan or anybody like it used to be very
00:41:15you know what a gauche to not have a good
00:41:19lyric you know now it's become kind of you
00:41:23the usual thing but but but but yeah so so I
00:41:25think his his his his his his um his lyrics
00:41:29are are need to be more emulated and and
00:41:32and and more you know we got to do it
00:41:35again we have to get you writing record
00:41:38reviews for the New Yorker I think um I'm
00:41:40curious how each of you think about your
00:41:43relationship to performance and and to
00:41:45touring in particular how do you prepare
00:41:48for a tour how do you stay sane out there
00:41:50wait can I just say the show I saw you
00:41:54play in 2012 was amazing started with all
00:41:57these candles um do you remember this
00:42:00yeah yeah no yeah like okay well you can
00:42:04speak to that but I you also came out in a
00:42:07kimono like true in like a robe and I was
00:42:10just like solo I mean nobody was allowed to
00:42:12plot and everything oh yeah yes yeah that
00:42:14was so yeah I I guess my short answer is
00:42:18like I try to give a good performance but
00:42:21also in life I want to be performing less
00:42:23all the time in whatever I'm doing
00:42:26including being on stage like the less
00:42:28performing the better I feel um whether
00:42:31that will end up being nice for other
00:42:33people or not but you have this huge like
00:42:38presence when you're performing and like I
00:42:41were I was I remember these things from
00:42:44then so you you answer this oh god
00:42:47well that well that that that was the
00:42:49songs for Lulu show which which which I
00:42:51was right after my mother passed away and
00:42:53and I did this show where I wouldn't
00:42:56allow the audience to applaud at all and
00:42:59and which was why not what was well I
00:43:02wanted it to be like a leader like a
00:43:04like a German song cycle where there was
00:43:06no you know whatever but I also wanted to
00:43:09annoy people but but but but it would
00:43:12what there was so many reasons I also
00:43:14wanted to get lost in it I wanted to just
00:43:16sort of go go somewhere else anyways but
00:43:19um in terms of preparing oh god and
00:43:22performance I don't know I the one thing
00:43:27I will say which which I've been thinking
00:43:29about a lot is there's some great line in
00:43:32music where I think it was either like
00:43:34jelly roll Morton or some great pianist
00:43:36from you know the jazz age would play and
00:43:40then he'd be like shoot me shoot me
00:43:43somebody shoot me and it is this thing of
00:43:45like yes shoot me I will never be happier
00:43:52than I am now you know like this is and I
00:43:56that's kind of what I try to where I try to
00:43:58get when I perform where I'm like this is I
00:44:00am released so please kill me now so might as
00:44:07well just accept it you might based on what
00:44:12you just said you might both have
00:44:13different answers to this question but I'm
00:44:15curious what feels like the truest version
00:44:18of a song to you is it is it the recorded
00:44:20version that's on the record or is it what
00:44:22happens when you're on this stage the truest well
00:44:34there's I feel like there's a lot of
00:44:38different types of truth right like I've
00:44:40like fiction expresses a lot of truth and
00:44:43like maybe nonfiction even has a harder
00:44:45time expressing truth because it purports to
00:44:47express truth so you know honestly I think
00:44:51they're so different there's they're like
00:44:54two such different animals I think I think
00:44:57for performing I can't even relate the two
00:45:00of them yeah to a recording and to a
00:45:02performance personally but yeah if I had to
00:45:07pick one as a viewer live actually I saw
00:45:10Big Thief last night in Lomelda who I love
00:45:12there was so good I don't know if you were
00:45:14at that but it was awesome and as being a
00:45:18fan of theirs for a long time and having
00:45:20played shows with them when like 16 people
00:45:23were there and now it's like 12,000
00:45:25people you know here in the first chord of
00:45:28a song and going woo like that recognition
00:45:30woo it was amazing why am I talking about
00:45:34this oh they play the songs differently
00:45:38night to night because they can and
00:45:40they're familiar with them and so it's
00:45:43maybe not one or the other but it's paying
00:45:47attention to the relationship between
00:45:50every iteration that you hear and like
00:45:53maybe it's like each time you listen is
00:45:56one stroke of the painting and if you go
00:45:58back and back again you get the whole
00:46:00picture like if you let it follow you
00:46:02through your life it's just this very rich
00:46:04experience that you can have with a song
00:46:06that's why I think like covering like
00:46:08hallelujah so many people have covered it
00:46:09I like to cover songs that have been
00:46:11covered a lot because it's just
00:46:13participating in a life of the song that
00:46:15is ultimately how cool would it be if like
00:46:18people know it and forget any human name
00:46:22attached to it like like a hymn I think
00:46:26maybe I talked about that with you one time
00:46:27hanging out
00:46:30no absolutely I okay so it is my belief
00:46:35that spiritually you are both somehow
00:46:37New Yorkers you feel like New Yorkers to
00:46:40me but but it is also true that you both
00:46:43live in Los Angeles yes we do I was hoping
00:46:46you could each talk a little bit about
00:46:47what inspires you about LA look I I love New York and and I was born in Rhinebeck upstate and my family lives here my dad still lives here and stuff and and and so I and I had some great times in in my life here and and and I and I still have a place out in Montauk so that that is really the
00:47:17home in a lot of ways. But that being said, Hollywood for me is really the kind of, I
00:47:28don't know, it's the most wonderful, horrifying, disgusting, thrilling, you know, exciting,
00:47:39terrible, tacky thing. I don't know. I'm so obsessed with Hollywood. And I mean like old
00:47:44Hollywood, 70s Hollywood, present Hollywood, that whole ridiculous notion of it I find
00:47:52endlessly fascinating and kind of comforting in this world we live in today. I feel like,
00:47:58I mean though I adore New York, I actually feel like Los Angeles has much more of a relation to
00:48:03the just craziness that we're experiencing in the United States right now. If you look at it
00:48:08through that lens. And so I find it, yeah, so I find it comforting. And I also find that
00:48:18all those ghosts are still there, like Betty Davis and Joan Crawford. And I don't know.
00:48:27Yeah, so that's my thing with Hollywood. What about you?
00:48:31I am surprised I seem like a New Yorker to you, because I've never lived here. As a kid,
00:48:37I wanted to live here because I grew up in Richmond, Virginia, and it was on the bus line.
00:48:42And I would like take the overnight bus and like sleep in the Times Square McDonald's overnight and
00:48:48then spend the day and then come back. But yeah, there's something about LA that is so different
00:48:57from anything that I've known that I feel completely clean, that like I feel unrelated to it.
00:49:06And it's sort of that like contextless thing. I'm sure as I live there longer, like context will start
00:49:13to encroach, but it's very easy to write because even the trees are not for me. Like everything about
00:49:21it is not me. And that is really freeing. And because of the earthquakes there, they don't build
00:49:30buildings very high in most of the town. So the sky is huge. And I just look at the sky so much.
00:49:37And here the sky is so tiny. You have to like really like look to, you have to go find it.
00:49:43Little sky country as it's known. I think I think of you as a New Yorker because you read so much and
00:49:50I have decided New York. We've claimed reading. Yeah. It's y'all in Chicago.
00:49:56I'm amazed at how much you read and how much you know about literature. It's really encouraging.
00:50:01Lucy is the most well-read person I know. Don't say that.
00:50:06It's very, very inspiring actually. You're well-read too.
00:50:10I try. I try. I try. It's taken me a year to read Middlemarch.
00:50:15It's a long book. That's about right.
00:50:20Okay. I have two more questions for you guys. So this is my warning to all of you. Text your cues
00:50:26now because we will be upon them soon. Here's sort of a funny question. Rufus, so you and your
00:50:33sister Martha famously host a holiday themed benefit concert every December. I know Lucy is joining
00:50:39you this year. So Lucy, you filmed an episode of Amoeba's What's in My Bag recently and you
00:50:46picked Sufjan Stevens' Songs for Christmas, a collection that I also love. But you said
00:50:52this thing that was really funny. You said you hate Christmas. And then this also made me
00:50:56laugh. You described it as an unlikable time of year.
00:51:00Did I say that? We have some fact checkers in the audience who could confirm for me. But
00:51:09I'm curious sort of what you two have planned for that evening, if you can talk about it.
00:51:12And also just more generally sort of how you feel about that holiday and holidays in general.
00:51:19We were just starting to talk about it downstairs? Upstairs? Where are we? Downstairs.
00:51:24In the mini New Yorker area. In the mini New Yorker area. I'm gonna do whatever you say. I'm in your
00:51:32car. Yeah. And yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think the show that we're doing, it's called Hooray for
00:51:39Holidays. And also Beck's gonna do it. And Jake Wesley Rogers, a bunch of other people, Martha Loudon.
00:51:47And it's, for us, it's very early in the season. It's December 6th. So it's more just a general
00:51:52festival of light and, you know, the beginning of several types of holidays. But in terms of
00:51:57Christmas, huh. Yeah, I mean, I love it. But it's, a lot of this has to do with the fact that my
00:52:05mother, our mother, Kate, she decided at a certain point that she wanted to do a Christmas show
00:52:13with the kids. And we were very, very young. My sister and I, we were about five or, well, no,
00:52:20my cousins were about five and six. And I was a little older. But and there's there was a there's
00:52:25a performer named Leon Redbone. And this is back in the 80s. And, and she, my aunt and and and
00:52:34mother said, Well, we're gonna we're gonna open for him at town hall. And this was a big deal for like
00:52:39a folk people to play the town hall like mighty wind like that. So they're all excited. And and so
00:52:45so so so we had one show before town hall, which was at the town crier, which is upstate. And,
00:52:52and none of the kids wanted to rehearse. None of us wanted to learn any songs. None of us wanted to
00:52:57do any learning harmonies. We just like we're screwing around and I and my mother and aunt could
00:53:02not control us. So so we had one rehearsal before the show at the at the town crier. And when I was
00:53:10rehearsing, rehearsing and it was on the day of the show. So at a certain point, my mother and my aunt
00:53:14gave up and started drinking. And, and we all showed up at the gig total and my parent, my mother
00:53:23and aunt were totally trashed. And they had the little kids. And they just threw us on stage. And
00:53:29they started playing banjos. And we didn't know what parts to sing. And then that people were like
00:53:35asking for their money back, like, like the cops were like, like, what's going on? Anyways,
00:53:40the next day we rehearsed and learned all our parts. And we did a wonderful show at town hall.
00:53:46So I think it's the trauma, just continuing the trauma, just continue the trauma. And so
00:53:51welcome back.
00:53:52Happy holidays. Okay, Lucy, I have to ask you about this because it's been all over social
00:53:59media. The last few days, you had a conversation with Janelle Monae recently, in which they said
00:54:06that they traveled back in time and and to the 70s and saw David Bowie perform. I thought
00:54:12you handled it with a lot of grace and composure because really, who knows what is possible in
00:54:17life. What was going through your mind? And do either of you believe in time travel?
00:54:24I believe Janelle Monae time travels.
00:54:30Me too.
00:54:32Yeah, like, if anyone is going to be time traveling, it's that guy. It just at first,
00:54:37I was like, did, oh, you saw David Bowie? Because he kept doing shows, I think, until 2004,
00:54:42just thinking, like, you literally maybe saw, like, the last record. And that is not the
00:54:49case. That, so my slow, non-time traveling brain definitely had like a, is that, okay, yeah,
00:55:01we're time traveling. Got it. And I mean, I think that, like, in a way that I'm not going to
00:55:09like, in a way, maybe this is available to all of us in some way. It like kind of opened my mind to
00:55:18just like, do I just think time travel is not possible? Like, I, yeah, I need to ask more
00:55:24questions. I'm going to her, I don't know what I'm doing for Christmas, but I know I'm going to her
00:55:29Halloween party. So I will continue to research this for the class. Incredible. Rufus, any time
00:55:36traveling for you? Oh, God, I need to figure out now, really. I, I, yeah, I, I, look, I spend a lot
00:55:43of time in opera, listening to opera. Opera is my favorite type of music. I go to the opera often.
00:55:49I will say that someone, someone asked me downstairs for the mini interview, they asked if,
00:55:56if, what do I do when I need solace or where I need some, some messages or from somewhere,
00:56:03what do I do? And I, and it's, it's often, I'll go to the opera and I do believe, and I often get
00:56:07it, uh, from, from the performance. Um, and I do think that there are these messages in that,
00:56:14that work that are directly related to when they were composed hundreds of years ago. And there is
00:56:22this kind of conversation between eras and stuff that, uh, that is completely real, you know, and,
00:56:30uh, and, and so I do believe in messages for certainly from, from, from, from times coming
00:56:35back and, and forward, whether I, when it actually goes there, um, you know, depends what you're on,
00:56:42really.
00:56:43On that note, um, okay, you guys sent in so many amazing questions. I am, I'm just going to ask as
00:56:51many as we have time for, uh, these are, are from the audience. Uh, in times when culture feels
00:56:57fractured, music can still reach across differences. Do you feel a responsibility for your work to engage
00:57:03politically or does that come through naturally when writing truthfully?
00:57:07I don't think it's a responsibility, but I think it's a possibility and it's a really great thing
00:57:12when it does happen. But I think that if you take it on as a responsibility, you will just become
00:57:17a preacher and nobody likes to be preached to and you'll have a self-defeating body of work.
00:57:26You know, I, it's, it's, it's hard for me because, I mean, I've written some very political songs,
00:57:31which, which were written for another era, but, but, but, but now, uh, fit well in this one. Um,
00:57:38a little too well. And, uh, I will say though, that having grown up in the, in the seventies,
00:57:45uh, with, with folk in the folk world, there was this tradition of total, you know, protest songs
00:57:52and everybody coming out and singing for the good of mankind. And, and, you know, and, and that
00:58:00is something that, um, where the whole concept of like not writing about politics was frowned upon,
00:58:07like, how dare you write a love song? You have to write about the workers, you know? And,
00:58:11and that, I think that that's, yeah, I think we need, I don't know if we, you can resurrect that,
00:58:19but, but there, I am fascinated by that, by that period because it was so vehement and so
00:58:25strong and powerful. And, uh, you know, like, could you imagine Pete Seeger today, you know,
00:58:32with, I mean, like just, you know, like someone like that, but, but that takes a lot of work
00:58:37and it's like a real, it's a real discipline. And, and, and, and, and I, if somebody decided,
00:58:42yes, we are protest singers and y'all, you can sing as protest songs. Like, you know,
00:58:46I'd be into supporting that, but, but as you said, it has to be like formidable.
00:58:52How does your relationship to your own music change over time? And is there any specific song
00:58:57that has taken on a new meaning that you didn't expect? You know, hallelujah and hallelujah. I,
00:59:04I have sung that for a long time now and, and there were definite periods where I despised that song
00:59:11and I was very resentful that it was sort of the, my most famous offering and, and, uh, but then after
00:59:18he died, I, I, I, I kind of, I sang it a lot and so forth. And, um, and there are certain lines in
00:59:26that song that have hit me now that I totally was not cognizant of, um, before. So, so that,
00:59:35that, that, yeah, I've, I've wanted to hate that song for years, but I can't.
00:59:40Any lines in particular that have taken on?
00:59:42Well, the, how to, how to, how to, whatever, uh, maybe, uh, all I learned from, from love was how to,
00:59:49to draw, to shoot at someone who outdrew you, to how to shoot at someone who outdrew you. That is,
00:59:55yeah. Until you've really gone through that, you know, you can't really understand it.
01:00:01Yeah. That's a wild one. Um, I really liked the process of getting farther from every song
01:00:09and like seeing people sing them because as they sing them, it becomes not mine anymore. And
01:00:19I just like imagine that the song has its own life, like far away from me and it's very humbling.
01:00:25So pretty much like anything I've ever made, once it, it is out, I feel differently about it.
01:00:30Lucy, your Goodreads reviews are excellent.
01:00:35What do you look for in what you read and does it inform your own writing process?
01:00:39I am always reading what I've been told to read. So I have a lot of friends with good
01:00:47taste or I'll read a book and it'll be based on this other book or that author really loves
01:00:53this other author. Or I am saying like, Oh, I'm reading this. And someone says like,
01:00:59have you checked this out? Or, um, just wanting to get closer to people that I like and the people
01:01:05I love. And like, it's a really like deep way to share something because it takes so much duration
01:01:14and focus. And, um, it's just another way to connect. So whatever comes my way.
01:01:25Do you think of your songwriting as part of a queer canon or simply as human storytelling?
01:01:30If you don't say yes,
01:01:32look, I
01:01:38well, no, somebody get me a cigarette. No, uh, no, I
01:01:46Can you smoke in here?
01:01:47Yeah, I, I do. I do now consider it a queer sort of canon that I created at the time when
01:01:53I wrote it. I had no, I had no sort of, um, plan to do that at all. Um, I mainly just wanted to
01:02:03write about what was going on in my life. And, um, and I just couldn't lie. I'm not a good liar.
01:02:09So, so, so, so it just sort of happened that way. But now that I look back and, and I, and I, and I, and I do have so many wonderful, um, people who come to me and tell me how much, you know, my songs meant to them when they came out and how, when they were struggling with their sexuality, how it really meant the world to them. I mean, I'm, I'm so, whatever.
01:02:30That means everything for me. I mean, that's, that's, that's, that's, I couldn't ask for anything more, more fantastic than that. So, yeah.
01:02:38Lucy, do you feel a part of that lineage?
01:02:40Uh, if that's happening for other people, it can never happen for me in the same way. So I have to kind of just take other people's word for that.
01:02:51Both of you write songs that feel carefully constructed, almost architectural, yet emotionally raw. How do you know when a song is finished?
01:02:59Is it a feeling, a structure, or just a deadline?
01:03:03It really changes per song. And some songs take like eight years and others take two minutes. And sometimes I'll record it and put it out and then retroactively feel like it wasn't done.
01:03:16But I think that it's sort of this balance between persistence and giving up. Like a lot of art is knowing when you need to push through and when you need to stop. And sometimes it is just influenced by I'm hungry and I need to go get food.
01:03:37Like it's not so highfalutin. Maybe other people are. But for me, it's kind of simple things that influence that.
01:03:47I have a thing where if I am elated with something and I'm like, oh, it's great. It's amazing. I'll clock that and I'll be like, it's not finished.
01:04:00Because oftentimes I'll look at it the next day and I'll be like, oh, that's terrible. Like it's like this sort of elation thing. I've written the greatest song. You know, it doesn't work that way.
01:04:09That being said, if I cry a little bit, it usually means it's done. There's like a little tear thing that happens. It's not like a weeping or anything, but it's just like a little emotional tear.
01:04:21Or I'm like, okay, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, that's, it's done.
01:04:24Pretty good affirmation that you've, yeah. All of the questions you guys sent in were amazing. I think we have time for one more. I apologize. I couldn't get to all of them.
01:04:34Okay. When you revisit older songs, do they still feel true or do they belong to a past version of yourself?
01:04:40I have this like nagging voice on my shoulder that is like, don't say anything that you won't mean later, which I think is actually like bad.
01:04:52In some way it's kept me like wanting to say things that are not petty and maybe like very deeply who I am, but also like that's counting out all the good, petty, shallow stuff that might also be kind of interesting.
01:05:07And so that's like something I need to like look into personally.
01:05:12Was that my whole answer?
01:05:13I can tell you how to do that.
01:05:15Okay.
01:05:16Petty, shallow, gotcha.
01:05:18Okay, cool. We'll talk later.
01:05:22I just, yeah, I just try to, I try to, I try to, I try, I think of myself as a tree and, and certain songs are certain branches and certain periods of my life.
01:05:32And they're all kind of equal and, and, and, and just different people, but, but up from the same tree, you know, a little bit.
01:05:41Once again, on behalf of everyone at the New Yorker, I really want to thank you guys so much for being here tonight.
01:05:47Lucy and Rufus, this was such a blast.
01:05:52Thank you, Amanda.
01:05:54Oh, thank you.
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