George Saunders and Zadie Smith Talk with Deborah Treisman

The New Yorker

On October 25, 2025, the writers George Saunders and Zadie Smith took the stage with The New Yorker’s fiction editor, Deborah Treisman, for a discussion at the 26th annual New Yorker Festival.

Transcript

00:00:00I always love the applause for walking out.

00:00:18It's the hardest part of the show.

00:00:20Hi everyone, I'm Deborah Treisman.

00:00:22I'm the fiction editor at The New Yorker

00:00:24and it's my pleasure to welcome you

00:00:26to the 26th annual New Yorker festival.

00:00:30And to today's conversation with Zadie Smith and George Saunders.

00:00:34Zadie Smith published her first story in The New Yorker in 1999

00:00:37when she was 24.

00:00:39And the following year, her first novel, White Teeth,

00:00:42which the Whitbread First Novel Award Committee called

00:00:45not only the best first novel we've read in ages,

00:00:48but one of the best novels we've ever read

00:00:50and perhaps the best novel about contemporary London.

00:00:54The hits kept coming.

00:00:56Among them, a play, four essay collections,

00:00:59the fourth of which, Dead and Alive, comes out on Tuesday.

00:01:03Tuesday, I think.

00:01:04Two story collections and five more novels,

00:01:06including On Beauty, Swing Time, and The Fraud,

00:01:09which was published in 2023.

00:01:12Fiction, Smith has written,

00:01:14is a medium that must always allow itself

00:01:16the possibility of expressing intimate and inconvenient truths.

00:01:20Whether she's imagining an immigrant living in servitude

00:01:23or villagers held hostage by strange armed men

00:01:27or tourists drifting down a lazy river

00:01:30or a woman who chooses silence over words,

00:01:33her narratives are filled with those truths.

00:01:36George Saunders' fictional terrain

00:01:38ranges from a theme park version of hell

00:01:41to sinister drug trials

00:01:42to psychotic war veterans

00:01:44to murdered polar bears.

00:01:46But in his cartoonish dystopias,

00:01:48there is always something forcefully and undeniably humane.

00:01:52A satirist, a sociologist, and a stylist,

00:01:56in his five collections of stories,

00:01:58including Liberation Day and 10th of December,

00:02:00he delivers hard-hitting and hilarious commentaries

00:02:02on the state of our culture and our souls.

00:02:04Whereas most of Saunders' stories

00:02:08take on contemporary culture

00:02:09or the perhaps not-so-distant future,

00:02:13his first novel, Lincoln and the Bardo,

00:02:14turned backward to a cemetery in 1862.

00:02:19His new novel, Vigil, which comes out in January,

00:02:22concerns not the recently deceased

00:02:24but the about-to-be,

00:02:25an oil baron whose journey across the river Styx

00:02:28is not a smooth one.

00:02:31As with all of Saunders' work,

00:02:32even that journey is one that we can take

00:02:35with his characters and learn from.

00:02:37So please welcome Sadie Smith and George Saunders.

00:02:43So I want to just start big with the big questions

00:02:47because I was thinking earlier today

00:02:51about the first time that I spoke with Sadie

00:02:54at a New Yorker festival,

00:02:56which was either 25 or 26 years ago.

00:02:59She was a teenager, basically.

00:03:05And George and I have been doing this

00:03:07for a long time as well.

00:03:09And I just, thinking about the distance

00:03:11that you guys have both come in those years,

00:03:14I'm wondering what have been the biggest changes

00:03:18for you as writers while writing,

00:03:21and what have been the biggest changes for you

00:03:24in that time in terms of seeing your work

00:03:28go out in the world.

00:03:30And I know that's a huge question,

00:03:31so you can just speak to something specific first.

00:03:36It's hard to know who I was then,

00:03:39so I feel very embarrassed about whatever retrospective person

00:03:43that was, age 24, 25.

00:03:45I think, maybe George has an opinion on this,

00:03:51that writing books has a strange effect on time anyway.

00:03:56Because I feel like I was 24 two minutes ago,

00:04:01and then it's only really this year,

00:04:04looking back at 14 books,

00:04:06because the main feeling is, what happened?

00:04:09Like, what was that in Lorde language?

00:04:15Yeah, so I am surprised a lot

00:04:19that that much work got done.

00:04:23For me, the main difference is

00:04:25like a much broader humility.

00:04:29That's the way I would put it.

00:04:30Things that I did not take seriously when I was young,

00:04:33I take seriously now.

00:04:37That's the best way I can put it.

00:04:40I think when I was young anyway,

00:04:42I thought I could kind of achieve mastery over something.

00:04:48And now I just don't feel that way at all

00:04:50about any aspect of life.

00:04:52I don't feel any wiser.

00:04:53I don't feel that I can kind of perfect things.

00:04:56And I feel much more...

00:05:01The whole areas, like the area of faith,

00:05:04the area of, you know,

00:05:06submission to something greater,

00:05:07all of that stuff was not in my consciousness

00:05:09when I was 25.

00:05:11And now I suppose it is.

00:05:13Yeah, so I think I think differently,

00:05:14write differently for that reason.

00:05:17Sorry, that wasn't very fun.

00:05:18George, you'll go.

00:05:22I first think we should say happy birthday to Zadie.

00:05:27I was politely not going there.

00:05:31Yeah.

00:05:32Yeah.

00:05:33Thank you, everyone.

00:05:35I mean, I first got in through the gate of the New Yorker

00:05:39in 92, I think.

00:05:41And it was all...

00:05:42And at the time,

00:05:43I was very in touch with darkness, you know.

00:05:45Like...

00:05:46And I still am.

00:05:48But I think for me,

00:05:49the whole journey has been

00:05:50to try to find technical ways

00:05:52to let more light in.

00:05:54Because I feel more light.

00:05:55But at first,

00:05:56the kind of...

00:05:57I guess just the stylistic mannerisms

00:06:00were accentuating a certain part of my view,

00:06:05which is that capitalism plunders

00:06:07the sensuality of the body.

00:06:08You know, that whole idea.

00:06:10And also, like, kind of a dark humor,

00:06:12which I still believe in,

00:06:14still think it has a function.

00:06:16But somewhere in there,

00:06:17I started thinking,

00:06:17well, why is it that there's so many

00:06:19positive valences in my life

00:06:21that I can't find a voice for?

00:06:22So that became kind of an interesting trick

00:06:25to kind of keep the dark

00:06:26and the light balanced off somehow.

00:06:29And that's kind of...

00:06:30I think that's kind of the...

00:06:31You know, at 115,

00:06:33I'll finally get it right

00:06:33and I'll just kick off

00:06:35after the last period.

00:06:36But for me, that's been the journey

00:06:37is to say,

00:06:39so happy to have some success.

00:06:41And part of you wants to cling

00:06:42to the thing that got you in the party.

00:06:44And that's a death.

00:06:46So you can't do that.

00:06:46So you have to try to keep

00:06:47opening the door wider.

00:06:49Something like that.

00:06:50I mean, both your novels

00:06:51are about death.

00:06:53Yeah.

00:06:55That's kind of fun.

00:06:58I tell the story,

00:06:59but I was on that airplane

00:07:00one time that almost crashed.

00:07:02And that was just like

00:07:03that moment of sitting there,

00:07:05you know,

00:07:05a goose had flown into the engine

00:07:07and we didn't know that.

00:07:09But the plane was just going down

00:07:10really quickly.

00:07:11And the pilot came on and yelled,

00:07:13stay in your seat

00:07:13with your seatbelt on.

00:07:14Not a model of calm.

00:07:16And I just thought,

00:07:18oh my God,

00:07:19you know,

00:07:20I'm not ready for this

00:07:21and I have to get out

00:07:21of this body

00:07:22and it's that seat

00:07:23that's going to do it,

00:07:24you know.

00:07:24And so then anyway,

00:07:25the week after that

00:07:26was the best week ever,

00:07:27you know.

00:07:28So that seemed like...

00:07:29In the beginning,

00:07:31when you sat down to write,

00:07:33you had no contract,

00:07:34you had no deadline,

00:07:36you had no audience

00:07:38beyond your loved ones.

00:07:41Now you do.

00:07:44Does that at all affect

00:07:46how you feel

00:07:46when you start working

00:07:47on something?

00:07:49On a bad day,

00:07:50I think it can.

00:07:53But I think I have little

00:07:54tests to make sure

00:07:58I get back in the state of mind

00:08:00I need to be in.

00:08:01So if I write something

00:08:02and I'm feeling very self-conscious,

00:08:04I do put it away for a while.

00:08:06Sometimes a single drink can help.

00:08:08Put it away,

00:08:09one drink,

00:08:10or being on an airplane,

00:08:11being out of context,

00:08:13taking it to a different place,

00:08:14a cafe or...

00:08:15And just trying to read it afresh.

00:08:18And then I'm in it again.

00:08:20And I think the thing I write

00:08:23for anywhere is exactly...

00:08:25I think in New York

00:08:26you now call it a flow state.

00:08:28But that thing where time

00:08:30disappears for a while,

00:08:33that's the only experience

00:08:34in my life where that happens.

00:08:36I'm not a Buddhist,

00:08:37I don't do any yoga,

00:08:38but when I'm writing,

00:08:40nine hours can go by

00:08:42and I don't know it.

00:08:43When I'm in that,

00:08:44then there is no reader

00:08:46or audience

00:08:47or self-consciousness.

00:08:49It's just gone.

00:08:49All of it.

00:08:50I find the biggest problem

00:08:52is that you...

00:08:53In my case,

00:08:53to kind of...

00:08:55I was 38

00:08:56before my first book came out.

00:08:57So I just sort of found

00:08:58this little wedge

00:08:59of something that I could do

00:09:00and then to try to,

00:09:02you know,

00:09:04honor that authentic thing

00:09:06that you found

00:09:06but without just repeating it.

00:09:09And so to keep trying to find

00:09:10a little extra sliver of talent

00:09:13that you could use.

00:09:15So you don't want to be someone

00:09:17who keeps doing the same tricks,

00:09:18but those were the tricks

00:09:19that first got you into the thing.

00:09:23So it's interesting

00:09:24as you get older

00:09:24and you have to...

00:09:25What I'm finding

00:09:26is I have to keep pushing myself

00:09:27into zones that are...

00:09:29That I kind of ruled out.

00:09:31Like this new book

00:09:32has a little bit of modernism

00:09:33in some of the narration

00:09:34and I gave it up

00:09:36back in my Hemingway,

00:09:37you know, period

00:09:38when I didn't work back then.

00:09:40So now I'm kind of...

00:09:41Oh, I can actually describe

00:09:42a thought pretty straightforwardly.

00:09:44I can...

00:09:44You know...

00:09:44So what do you think

00:09:45about the idea...

00:09:47Like something Sally Rooney

00:09:49said recently

00:09:49which I thought was so beautiful

00:09:50that to her this idea

00:09:52of constant transformation

00:09:53is unnecessary.

00:09:55Like for her it's one project,

00:09:57it goes on permanently.

00:09:59Almost like Austin

00:10:00with that idea

00:10:01of like a little square of ivory

00:10:03that you just keep working on.

00:10:04I also think that's beautiful.

00:10:05It's not my way,

00:10:06but I love the idea.

00:10:09I like too that...

00:10:10I think related to that,

00:10:11the idea that you finish one book

00:10:12and you're kind of sick of it.

00:10:14Like that part of your psyche,

00:10:16you've really done it

00:10:16and now you're almost in revulsion

00:10:19going on to the next thing.

00:10:20or whatever it is.

00:10:21It's exactly that.

00:10:22That's a good way to live.

00:10:23Absolute revulsion.

00:10:24Keep doing things

00:10:24and being ashamed of them

00:10:25and that's growth.

00:10:28Yeah.

00:10:31Then you have to go out

00:10:32and sell it.

00:10:33Yeah.

00:10:34Yeah.

00:10:35Don't be ashamed of it

00:10:36until you sell it.

00:10:37Talk about it.

00:10:40In terms of

00:10:41how you approach

00:10:43each new thing,

00:10:44you know,

00:10:45are you consciously

00:10:46trying to change styles?

00:10:48Are you trying

00:10:48to challenge yourself

00:10:49to do something differently

00:10:50or do you feel

00:10:52like Sally Rooney

00:10:54that there is

00:10:55a continuum

00:10:56and this is your voice

00:10:57and this is

00:10:58what you call on?

00:11:00I think it's different

00:11:01for different writers.

00:11:02I know the sense

00:11:03of revulsion in me

00:11:04is very strong

00:11:04and I do need to

00:11:05move away

00:11:07from one book

00:11:07to a new book

00:11:09and to constantly feel

00:11:09like I'm moving forward.

00:11:13But then

00:11:14as you look at it

00:11:14as a whole

00:11:15you can see

00:11:15the persistence

00:11:16of ideas,

00:11:17the persistence

00:11:18of beliefs.

00:11:20Like I can see

00:11:21the sameness

00:11:22and I'm not,

00:11:23I don't think

00:11:24I'm embarrassed

00:11:25of that anymore.

00:11:26Like when I read

00:11:27a writer's work

00:11:29that's part of what I love,

00:11:31the consistency

00:11:32of sensibility

00:11:32that's there

00:11:33I can feel

00:11:34in every book

00:11:35and we were just

00:11:36talking about

00:11:36Miriam Taves backstage

00:11:38and I've been reading

00:11:38so much of her

00:11:39and it's all

00:11:40in the same world

00:11:41but I have no objection.

00:11:43I love being there.

00:11:44I love every angle

00:11:45she takes on that world.

00:11:47So when I see it

00:11:48in other writers

00:11:48I have no problem.

00:11:50It's in me

00:11:50that I tend to

00:11:51be harder on myself

00:11:53or think that

00:11:54I'm repeating myself

00:11:56or anxious about that

00:11:57but I know as a reader

00:11:58that it's not a concern really.

00:12:00It's a world

00:12:00you want to be in

00:12:01normally.

00:12:03Yeah, yeah.

00:12:04I mean I

00:12:04think in a way

00:12:06a book is kind of a trap

00:12:07that you get into

00:12:08and you say

00:12:10okay I'm going to have

00:12:10a book with Lincoln in it.

00:12:12Seems like a great idea

00:12:13for a while

00:12:14and then you go

00:12:14oh god I have to write Lincoln.

00:12:16You know I have to be

00:12:16so then

00:12:17for the next couple of years

00:12:19you labor under the burden

00:12:21of the constraint

00:12:22that you put yourself in.

00:12:23So I often feel that

00:12:24okay you have to do that.

00:12:26You have to honor

00:12:27that constraint.

00:12:28You have to write

00:12:28the difficult stuff

00:12:29and then when you're done

00:12:30it's the

00:12:31it's the sudden absence

00:12:32of the constraint

00:12:33that is the motive.

00:12:34motivation for the next thing.

00:12:35Now I don't have to do anything.

00:12:36I can do

00:12:37I can just be funny

00:12:38or I can write

00:12:39in the contemporary era.

00:12:41You know

00:12:41it's that kind of liberation

00:12:43from the thing

00:12:43that you put yourself

00:12:45under for those years.

00:12:46then it's nice.

00:12:49Well so

00:12:49let's talk about writing

00:12:50about Lincoln.

00:12:54Well I'm thinking of

00:12:55an essay that Zady wrote

00:12:56about not wanting

00:12:58to write historical fiction

00:12:59and trying desperately

00:13:01not to write historical fiction

00:13:02and then writing

00:13:04historical fiction

00:13:05fiction

00:13:06and about the idea

00:13:09of sort of

00:13:09even trying to write

00:13:13historical fiction

00:13:13in Britain

00:13:15being trapped

00:13:16under this giant burden

00:13:17of Charles Dickens

00:13:18and I wonder

00:13:20do you feel

00:13:22that kind of oppression

00:13:23George

00:13:23when writing

00:13:24in the past

00:13:25and Zady

00:13:26what was it

00:13:28about this particular

00:13:29story and the fraud

00:13:30that made you

00:13:31change your mind?

00:13:33So go for

00:13:34either can go first.

00:13:37For me

00:13:37I'm sure it was Freudian

00:13:39but I really needed

00:13:39to know

00:13:40the truth

00:13:41about the relationship

00:13:42between

00:13:42the two countries

00:13:44that are

00:13:44in my heritage

00:13:45England and Jamaica.

00:13:46so of course

00:13:48I could have just

00:13:48studied

00:13:50or done a PhD

00:13:53but I guess

00:13:53in my way of thinking

00:13:55a novel is the way

00:13:56I find out about things

00:13:57and not just factually

00:13:58but emotionally.

00:14:00So for me

00:14:00it was an incredibly

00:14:01healing thing

00:14:04and I don't know

00:14:05if I would have

00:14:06described fiction writing

00:14:07for me in that way

00:14:07before

00:14:08but when I finished it

00:14:09I felt this great sense

00:14:10of oh

00:14:10these are the myths

00:14:12of the countries

00:14:12I come from

00:14:13here is the truth

00:14:15as far as I understand it.

00:14:16and I felt very

00:14:18relieved of something.

00:14:21I really felt

00:14:22relieved of something

00:14:22and I was so grateful

00:14:24to write that book

00:14:25and in fact

00:14:25of all my books

00:14:27that's the one

00:14:27which meant most

00:14:28to me personally

00:14:29because it was

00:14:30at the root of something.

00:14:31I did feel

00:14:32that I had grown up

00:14:34inside quite

00:14:34an elaborate lie

00:14:36and so

00:14:37getting to the heart

00:14:39of it

00:14:39it's good to know

00:14:42the truth

00:14:43even when the truth

00:14:43is extremely painful.

00:14:45So that's what

00:14:46that novel was

00:14:46to me

00:14:47and how did

00:14:49you obviously

00:14:50came across

00:14:51the story

00:14:51of this particular

00:14:52fraud

00:14:53this person

00:14:55claiming to be

00:14:56a long lost heir

00:14:57when you came

00:15:01across that

00:15:01you instantly knew

00:15:03that this had

00:15:03potential for you

00:15:05as a story?

00:15:06I mean it was

00:15:09under the influence

00:15:12of George too

00:15:12when I read

00:15:13Lincoln

00:15:14I did feel like

00:15:16that was a book

00:15:18about originating myth

00:15:20as well in this country

00:15:21and how freeing

00:15:23that is to do.

00:15:24The fraudulent element

00:15:25I guess

00:15:28as fiction writers

00:15:30public mendacity

00:15:33or narratives

00:15:34that are

00:15:35completely fictional

00:15:36are a kind

00:15:37of personal offence

00:15:38because that's our job

00:15:39but also

00:15:41it's

00:15:41we know something

00:15:43about them

00:15:43right?

00:15:44We know something

00:15:44about lying

00:15:45and about those

00:15:46kind of narratives

00:15:47and how they

00:15:47work upon people

00:15:49and so

00:15:49I thought it was

00:15:51for me

00:15:51because

00:15:52obviously

00:15:53what was happening

00:15:54here was happening

00:15:54here

00:15:55and the echoes

00:15:56were so

00:15:56so strong

00:15:57and it just

00:15:59excited me

00:15:59to think about

00:16:00that kind

00:16:02of person

00:16:02who

00:16:02who lies

00:16:04you know

00:16:06out front

00:16:06but appears

00:16:08to be truthful

00:16:08in some sense

00:16:09to many people

00:16:10I was interested

00:16:11in that contradiction

00:16:12and just in

00:16:13populism in general

00:16:14how it works.

00:16:16Could I ask

00:16:17an inside baseball

00:16:18question about

00:16:18so when I read

00:16:19that book

00:16:20I got such a sense

00:16:21of

00:16:21I could recognize

00:16:24the private

00:16:25celebration feeling

00:16:26the writer has

00:16:27when they kind

00:16:27of hit a vein

00:16:28and was it fun

00:16:29for you to write

00:16:30and can you

00:16:30just if it's

00:16:31not too intrusive

00:16:32what did the days

00:16:33of composition

00:16:34look like

00:16:35for that book?

00:16:36It was incredibly

00:16:37fun to write

00:16:38and I wanted

00:16:40to ask you too

00:16:41about those

00:16:41ghostly voices

00:16:43because to me

00:16:45that's what it was like

00:16:46like I remember

00:16:47hearing maybe

00:16:48Alice Walker

00:16:4830-40 years ago

00:16:50talking about

00:16:50The Color Purple

00:16:51and hearing

00:16:52the voice of Celie

00:16:53like just sitting

00:16:54down and writing

00:16:55it and that's

00:16:55what I mean

00:16:56about being

00:16:56an older writer

00:16:57when I was young

00:16:57I would roll

00:16:58my eyes and think

00:16:58oh please

00:16:59you didn't hear

00:17:00any voices

00:17:00that's such a

00:17:02masterful novel

00:17:03but I couldn't

00:17:04believe that part

00:17:05of it

00:17:05but now I believe

00:17:06it

00:17:06I absolutely

00:17:07believe it

00:17:08because that really

00:17:09was how it was

00:17:11I sat down

00:17:12to write

00:17:12I thought about

00:17:14maybe more

00:17:17about Dickens

00:17:18or more about

00:17:20some of the

00:17:20other characters

00:17:21in the book

00:17:21Mrs. Touche

00:17:22opened the door

00:17:22and that was

00:17:23that

00:17:23that was

00:17:24the end

00:17:24of the matter

00:17:25and it was

00:17:26like being

00:17:27spoken to

00:17:27and I wrote

00:17:29very quickly

00:17:30like I had

00:17:30two friends

00:17:32who I was

00:17:32sending each

00:17:33short chapter

00:17:33to

00:17:34and I wrote

00:17:34it like it

00:17:35was a serial

00:17:35novel

00:17:37because people

00:17:38used to do that

00:17:39that was the

00:17:39thing that felt

00:17:40fun

00:17:40I was reading

00:17:41about one or

00:17:41two a night

00:17:42and it always

00:17:43felt like

00:17:43ah here's

00:17:44Zadie again

00:17:45freshened up

00:17:45and ready to

00:17:46go

00:17:46that was it

00:17:47it was just

00:17:47every day

00:17:48just a little

00:17:48chapter

00:17:49and also

00:17:51when you have

00:17:51kids

00:17:51and a lot

00:17:52of chaos

00:17:52around

00:17:53as you know

00:17:53the joy

00:17:54of completing

00:17:54anything

00:17:55is so great

00:17:57so these short

00:17:58chapters were like

00:17:59oh well I did

00:18:00something today

00:18:00and I did

00:18:01something the

00:18:02next day

00:18:02and that was

00:18:03such a great

00:18:03feeling

00:18:04instead of

00:18:04a novel

00:18:05I'm sure

00:18:05there are

00:18:06writers in the

00:18:07audience

00:18:07it's such an

00:18:08overwhelming

00:18:08task sometimes

00:18:09you can't see

00:18:10your way through

00:18:11it

00:18:11and this was

00:18:11a way of

00:18:12seeing my way

00:18:13through it

00:18:13since you're

00:18:14indulging me

00:18:14did you have

00:18:15an overall outline

00:18:16I did

00:18:18but the overall

00:18:20outline was

00:18:21mostly the truth

00:18:22you know

00:18:22almost everything

00:18:22that happens

00:18:23in that book

00:18:23really happened

00:18:24so that was

00:18:25like having

00:18:25plot off your

00:18:26back a little bit

00:18:27but you must have

00:18:29had that with

00:18:29Bardo too

00:18:30no

00:18:30yeah that was

00:18:31I mean I had

00:18:32a two sentence

00:18:32outline which was

00:18:33Lincoln comes to

00:18:34the graveyard

00:18:35and later leaves

00:18:36yeah

00:18:36but that's

00:18:37the truth

00:18:38of the outline

00:18:39of novels

00:18:39and there was

00:18:39a second one

00:18:40which is

00:18:40Willie is there

00:18:41and he's not

00:18:42supposed to be

00:18:42there and he

00:18:42either leaves

00:18:43or he doesn't

00:18:43that was it

00:18:44but like

00:18:45suddenly

00:18:46that is my

00:18:46experience

00:18:46of novel

00:18:47outlines

00:18:47and you're

00:18:48not meant

00:18:48to say it

00:18:48out loud

00:18:49but they're

00:18:49usually

00:18:49four or five

00:18:51lines

00:18:51at most

00:18:52yeah

00:18:52and then plot

00:18:53is taken care

00:18:53of and you can

00:18:54yeah

00:18:55yeah

00:18:55yeah the truth

00:18:56helps in most

00:18:57cases

00:18:57yeah

00:18:57I mean obviously

00:19:00the voices that

00:19:01you heard

00:19:01for Lincoln

00:19:02and the Bardo

00:19:02were not

00:19:03factual

00:19:04historical

00:19:04voices

00:19:05I mean

00:19:05the characters

00:19:06may have been

00:19:07but the voices

00:19:08and you just

00:19:10reminded me

00:19:10of something

00:19:12we did a piece

00:19:14of Jan Foss's

00:19:15latest novel

00:19:16in the New Yorker

00:19:17and I did a Q&A

00:19:19with him

00:19:20and I must have

00:19:21I said a bad word

00:19:22basically

00:19:23I said something

00:19:24like did you

00:19:24intend this

00:19:26and this created

00:19:28a long answer

00:19:29in which the word

00:19:30intention was repeated

00:19:31negatively about

00:19:3215 times

00:19:33like you must

00:19:34never intend

00:19:35anything

00:19:35I have no

00:19:36intentions

00:19:37and so on

00:19:37but the crux

00:19:38of it was

00:19:39what he said

00:19:42and which is

00:19:42interesting

00:19:43is it just

00:19:43I hear it

00:19:44I have to listen

00:19:45and then I write

00:19:46it down

00:19:46yeah

00:19:47so

00:19:48and that to me

00:19:49is fascinating

00:19:50because mostly

00:19:51what I hear

00:19:51in my head

00:19:52are you know

00:19:53voices saying

00:19:53did you remember

00:19:54to lock the door

00:19:55and

00:19:55and did you

00:19:58oh shit

00:19:59I have to get

00:19:59this piece edited

00:20:00by tonight

00:20:01so I'm wondering

00:20:03what the experience

00:20:05of hearing those

00:20:05voices is

00:20:06I mean I think

00:20:08that's what

00:20:09structure is

00:20:10is you

00:20:10you make a shape

00:20:12and then that shape

00:20:13causes a question

00:20:14to arise

00:20:14and you need somebody

00:20:15to address that question

00:20:17so with the beauty

00:20:18of having some kind

00:20:19of structure

00:20:20is it like in this

00:20:21in the Lincoln book

00:20:21I know I'm trying

00:20:23to get a ghost

00:20:24from point A

00:20:24to point B

00:20:25that's the plot

00:20:27and so then you go

00:20:28okay so is there

00:20:29anything fun we can

00:20:30do along the way

00:20:31oh yeah he can look

00:20:32to the left

00:20:33what does he see

00:20:34and that's when you

00:20:35start hearing the voices

00:20:36what do you see

00:20:37and some ghost

00:20:38would just appear

00:20:39oh this is a ghost

00:20:41of a hunter

00:20:41okay

00:20:43and then it's that

00:20:44really playful

00:20:45spontaneous thing

00:20:46that's very hard

00:20:46to talk about

00:20:47or teach

00:20:47but you don't get

00:20:49to that place

00:20:49of pure invention

00:20:50without some kind

00:20:52of plan in place

00:20:53or another way

00:20:54of saying it

00:20:55is that every part

00:20:56of a book

00:20:56would be

00:20:57or story

00:20:57would be

00:20:58kind of a call

00:20:59and response

00:20:59you've called

00:21:00with one section

00:21:01certain questions

00:21:02are in the air

00:21:03and then all you

00:21:04have to do

00:21:04is kind of

00:21:05catch those questions

00:21:05and in that

00:21:07in that moment

00:21:07of freedom

00:21:08you can say

00:21:08alright I have

00:21:09to give him

00:21:10a ghost

00:21:11to look at

00:21:11is there any

00:21:13fun in this

00:21:13and then

00:21:14then suddenly

00:21:15the voice

00:21:15it's not really

00:21:17a voice

00:21:17but it's kind

00:21:17of a spot

00:21:19you know

00:21:19a spot

00:21:20appears

00:21:20and then you

00:21:20fill the spot

00:21:21I don't know

00:21:22George

00:21:23with you

00:21:23there's an

00:21:23extra element

00:21:24of the ear

00:21:26like when I

00:21:27first read you

00:21:28I was living

00:21:30in Brooklyn

00:21:31and a boyfriend

00:21:32gave me

00:21:32bad war

00:21:34bad civil war

00:21:35landing decline

00:21:35bad decline

00:21:36how do we say

00:21:36this title

00:21:37whatever it was

00:21:37I don't remember

00:21:38either

00:21:3830 years ago

00:21:39but when I

00:21:41heard that voice

00:21:41like you have

00:21:43an ear

00:21:43for American speech

00:21:44and for how

00:21:45Americans really

00:21:46speak

00:21:46like I was

00:21:47so used to

00:21:48reading Hemingway

00:21:49reading Updike

00:21:50or whatever

00:21:50at that point

00:21:51of Roth

00:21:51and they all

00:21:52got American

00:21:53speech at that

00:21:53moment

00:21:54but this was

00:21:54how 21st

00:21:55century Americans

00:21:56spoke

00:21:57it's almost

00:21:58trying to

00:22:00transcribe the way

00:22:01we all talk

00:22:01I mean English

00:22:02people as well

00:22:02sounds insane

00:22:03once you write

00:22:04down how people

00:22:04actually speak

00:22:05but you did it

00:22:06and I think

00:22:07with those

00:22:09ghosts

00:22:09I always think

00:22:10the ear for

00:22:11a voice

00:22:12is basically

00:22:13an acting talent

00:22:14like my brothers

00:22:14are actors

00:22:15and I'm aware

00:22:15that there's a

00:22:16connection between

00:22:17them and me

00:22:19in that

00:22:20and I wonder

00:22:21about you

00:22:22and acting

00:22:23because the voices

00:22:23are so precise

00:22:25and so

00:22:26you can't

00:22:28that's the hard

00:22:28bit to teach

00:22:29trying to sound

00:22:30like someone

00:22:31so where does

00:22:31that come from

00:22:32in you

00:22:32because you don't

00:22:33seem like the

00:22:33actory type

00:22:34I had growing up

00:22:38part of my family

00:22:39was from Chicago

00:22:40and part

00:22:41was from Texas

00:22:41and both

00:22:42were kind

00:22:42of comedian

00:22:43they're full

00:22:45of comedians

00:22:45so I had

00:22:46these two uncles

00:22:47in Texas

00:22:48who would just

00:22:48they would come

00:22:49in from work

00:22:51and they would

00:22:51start doing

00:22:51characters

00:22:52kind of just

00:22:53certain characters

00:22:54and it was so

00:22:55as a kid

00:22:57it was so much

00:22:57fun

00:22:58any tension

00:22:59went away

00:23:00and you just

00:23:00got to sit

00:23:01back and watch

00:23:01them be

00:23:02this imaginary

00:23:02person

00:23:03and of course

00:23:04that was very

00:23:05verbal

00:23:06I mean it was

00:23:06all in kind

00:23:07of being able

00:23:08to hear a certain

00:23:08dialect or something

00:23:09so I think

00:23:10that was

00:23:10natural

00:23:11and I tried

00:23:11to be an actor

00:23:12I was in

00:23:13Plaza Suite

00:23:14in high school

00:23:14I had

00:23:15yeah

00:23:15there's a part

00:23:17where a girl

00:23:18has locked

00:23:18herself in

00:23:19the bathroom

00:23:20on her wedding

00:23:20day

00:23:20and the really

00:23:22cool fiance

00:23:23comes in

00:23:23at the end

00:23:24of a 20 minute

00:23:25fight between

00:23:26her parents

00:23:26and his line

00:23:27is Mimsy

00:23:28cool it

00:23:29yeah

00:23:30so

00:23:31I did it better

00:23:34you did it just like that

00:23:35yeah I got to say that

00:23:36yeah

00:23:37but no

00:23:38I think

00:23:38and I think

00:23:39this is

00:23:39backstage

00:23:40you just

00:23:41spontaneously

00:23:42did a really good

00:23:42Brooklyn accent

00:23:43when you were

00:23:44imitating somebody

00:23:45on the street

00:23:45so I think

00:23:46that that verbal

00:23:47part is really

00:23:48maybe underestimated

00:23:50and you know

00:23:51I do

00:23:51I teach

00:23:52and I know

00:23:52you've taught

00:23:52that's something

00:23:53you really

00:23:54you can't say

00:23:54well just get better

00:23:55at voices

00:23:56you know

00:23:56but then there are

00:23:58writers who don't

00:23:59do it

00:24:00and don't need it

00:24:00like someone like

00:24:01Nabokov

00:24:01who thought

00:24:02all dialogue

00:24:03was like

00:24:03an idiot's task

00:24:04for fools

00:24:05and hacks

00:24:06and he doesn't

00:24:07he hardly bothers

00:24:08with it right

00:24:09he doesn't need it

00:24:09so it's not always

00:24:10there but for me

00:24:11it's the center of it

00:24:13or without it

00:24:15I'd be lost

00:24:15although he was

00:24:16always doing him

00:24:17yeah he's always doing him

00:24:18everybody sounds like him

00:24:19even 10 year old girls

00:24:20yeah everyone

00:24:20sounds like him

00:24:21yeah

00:24:22this kind of does

00:24:23as you said

00:24:24leads into the idea

00:24:25of acting

00:24:26and Zadie

00:24:26you wrote a play

00:24:27and I

00:24:27I'm remembering

00:24:30about

00:24:31nine years ago

00:24:34when

00:24:34we sent

00:24:35George

00:24:36to do

00:24:36a reported piece

00:24:38reporting assignment

00:24:39going to

00:24:41Trump rallies

00:24:42and writing about

00:24:44writing about

00:24:46what he experienced

00:24:46there

00:24:47and

00:24:47and his first draft

00:24:49came in

00:24:49and it was a play

00:24:50and I think

00:24:53there were ghosts

00:24:53in it

00:24:54there were like

00:24:54spirits hovering above

00:24:56and so on

00:24:57so obviously

00:24:58you know

00:24:58that was

00:24:59but you know

00:25:00Dave

00:25:00so I was really

00:25:01trying to avoid

00:25:02that story

00:25:03I went to all the rallies

00:25:04and I don't know

00:25:05what to say

00:25:05because I don't really

00:25:06personally

00:25:06I don't like

00:25:07criticizing anybody

00:25:08especially in nonfiction

00:25:10I just

00:25:10everything's great

00:25:11there were really fun rallies

00:25:13and people were so positive

00:25:14you know

00:25:14and so

00:25:16but I remember

00:25:17after that

00:25:17it was literally

00:25:18it was

00:25:18there were some

00:25:19Trump supporters

00:25:20and there were

00:25:21anti-Trump people

00:25:23flying overhead

00:25:24and singing

00:25:25and you know

00:25:26and so there was

00:25:27a little bit of a silence

00:25:27from the magazine

00:25:28after I sent that in

00:25:29and

00:25:30and then

00:25:31David Remnick

00:25:32wrote me

00:25:33and said

00:25:33while I really admire

00:25:35your

00:25:36your attempt

00:25:37at equanimity

00:25:39we feel like

00:25:40you're avoiding

00:25:41the hard work

00:25:41of analysis

00:25:42so that I went there

00:25:45and that was great advice

00:25:46because I was really

00:25:47trying not to say

00:25:48anything negative

00:25:48about them

00:25:49you know

00:25:49I mean

00:25:49yeah

00:25:50that was

00:25:51that put me

00:25:52in the position

00:25:52of going

00:25:53oh god

00:25:53here I am

00:25:54vouching for my

00:25:55fiction writers

00:25:55that they can also

00:25:56do these hard

00:25:57reported things

00:25:59and then

00:25:59well here's a play

00:26:01there was a scratch

00:26:02there was also

00:26:03a scratch and sniff

00:26:04component

00:26:04which they also

00:26:05wouldn't do

00:26:05so hidebound

00:26:08and say

00:26:12I had an experience

00:26:13with your play

00:26:14which was

00:26:15it was

00:26:15a signed

00:26:16summer reading

00:26:17for my daughter

00:26:18in high school

00:26:19the play

00:26:20yes

00:26:20the wife of

00:26:21what high school

00:26:22is she going to

00:26:22I imagine that

00:26:23it's spicy

00:26:24yeah

00:26:26between

00:26:2610th and 11th grade

00:26:28and

00:26:30and

00:26:31she made me

00:26:31read it to her

00:26:32so I've

00:26:32had the experience

00:26:33of reading

00:26:34your play

00:26:34aloud

00:26:35and I realized

00:26:36once school started

00:26:37why it was chosen

00:26:38because they were

00:26:38about to read

00:26:39Canterbury Tales

00:26:40oh right

00:26:40yeah

00:26:41but

00:26:41so it was the

00:26:42unusual situation

00:26:43of using Chaucer

00:26:45to illuminate

00:26:45Smith

00:26:46rather than

00:26:48vice versa

00:26:49at that point

00:26:50but

00:26:50again

00:26:52it is a different

00:26:53kind of writing

00:26:54from writing novels

00:26:55or stories

00:26:55and

00:26:56yeah

00:26:57I mean

00:26:57Chaucer's the best

00:26:58example of it

00:26:59that is a man

00:27:00who's hearing voices

00:27:01and they take him

00:27:02away from even

00:27:04what he thinks

00:27:05what he believes

00:27:05what he would

00:27:06rather argue

00:27:07The Wife of Bath

00:27:08is the classic case

00:27:08like it's

00:27:09three times as long

00:27:10as every other

00:27:11tale

00:27:12because he's just

00:27:12started to enjoy it

00:27:14so much

00:27:15and she's so wild

00:27:16and

00:27:17it was such a great

00:27:18experience that translation

00:27:19because it was kind of

00:27:21when the actor

00:27:23started doing it

00:27:24and when we performed it

00:27:25even in the reviews

00:27:27there was always the idea

00:27:28that I had

00:27:29made it more scandalous

00:27:31or

00:27:31but I had tried to tone

00:27:33Chaucer down

00:27:33there's stuff in that

00:27:35in The Wife of Bath

00:27:36that would make

00:27:37your grandmother

00:27:38blood

00:27:38like it's really intense

00:27:39very very sexual

00:27:40I had to explain this

00:27:41to my 15 year old

00:27:42it was so great

00:27:43engaging with someone

00:27:45from 600 years ago

00:27:46who's hearing voices

00:27:47and hearing such a

00:27:49voice that lives

00:27:50you know

00:27:51it's an incredible thing

00:27:51so all I had to do

00:27:53was translate

00:27:54I really didn't add anything

00:27:56I just translated

00:27:57what was there

00:27:58and

00:27:58for me

00:28:00that's always the thrill

00:28:01of

00:28:01of reading

00:28:03full stop

00:28:03is that I get

00:28:04to

00:28:05be in relation

00:28:06with this dead consciousness

00:28:07it's just

00:28:08I never got over that

00:28:09as

00:28:09the most remarkable

00:28:11thing that you can do

00:28:12on this earth

00:28:13it's like

00:28:13be in somebody's brain

00:28:14who's been dead

00:28:15a thousand years

00:28:16to me

00:28:17it's

00:28:18magic

00:28:19every time

00:28:19I mean

00:28:20that's the act of reading

00:28:21that's the act of reading

00:28:23but I'm

00:28:23quite easily overwhelmed

00:28:25by it even now

00:28:26yeah

00:28:26does it ever happen

00:28:29that

00:28:29you're starting

00:28:31on something

00:28:31and you have

00:28:32a voice in your head

00:28:34and you don't like it

00:28:35and you don't like the person

00:28:37I think that can happen

00:28:38and then

00:28:39I think you just have to say

00:28:40what don't I like about this

00:28:42and sometimes

00:28:44if you

00:28:44receive that answer

00:28:46honestly

00:28:47then that's actually

00:28:48character

00:28:49or it can be revision

00:28:50you know

00:28:51so if somebody

00:28:51strikes you as

00:28:53facile and disingenuous

00:28:55it's not you

00:28:57it's that stupid character

00:28:58you know

00:28:59and then

00:28:59so then you can say

00:28:59oh interesting

00:29:00okay so now I have to

00:29:01puncture this person

00:29:03you know

00:29:04when we did Victory Lap

00:29:05there was

00:29:06I was just having so much fun

00:29:08with this teenage voice

00:29:09and at one point

00:29:10she said

00:29:10kind of channeling me

00:29:12at 15

00:29:12she said

00:29:12you know

00:29:13to be good

00:29:14is not hard

00:29:15to be good

00:29:16all you have to do

00:29:16is just do good

00:29:17yeah

00:29:18you know

00:29:18kind of like

00:29:18what the hell

00:29:19this divorce

00:29:19you know

00:29:20and so I typed that out

00:29:22and I thought

00:29:23ooh really

00:29:24you know

00:29:24do you believe that

00:29:25I do

00:29:26all right

00:29:28so then there was

00:29:29a knock on the door

00:29:30you know

00:29:31and it's

00:29:31somebody there

00:29:32to abduct her

00:29:33so I mean

00:29:34I think sometimes

00:29:35that

00:29:35that's why

00:29:39the abductor came

00:29:41yeah

00:29:42so if you don't

00:29:43you know

00:29:44if you say something

00:29:45and you don't like

00:29:46the voice

00:29:46it could be

00:29:47that that's the

00:29:48story waiting to happen

00:29:49you know

00:29:50or if you just

00:29:51eradicate it

00:29:51then you're back

00:29:52to score one

00:29:52I have it a little bit now

00:29:55because I've just started

00:29:56a novel

00:29:56and it's a funny novel

00:29:57hopefully a short novel

00:29:59and it's in the first person

00:30:02and so

00:30:03a lot of

00:30:04the block

00:30:05is sometimes

00:30:06you know

00:30:07hating this version

00:30:09of your own voice

00:30:10or

00:30:11to me

00:30:12it's always when I'm trying to

00:30:13apply for something

00:30:16from the reader

00:30:16like when I want approval

00:30:18or love

00:30:20or I want them to think

00:30:20I'm cool

00:30:21whenever that happens

00:30:22I know it's happening

00:30:23and you read it the next day

00:30:24and you try and ignore it

00:30:26or your eye passes over

00:30:27the paragraph

00:30:28and then you have to ask yourself

00:30:29if you can't bear to read

00:30:30this paragraph

00:30:31what the hell

00:30:31why is it here

00:30:33so then

00:30:34then it's a process

00:30:35of removing it

00:30:36but I do find it

00:30:37in the first person

00:30:38particularly

00:30:39difficult

00:30:40because that's when

00:30:42I'm most needling

00:30:43like I'm trying to

00:30:44get something out

00:30:45of

00:30:45the reader

00:30:47and I think that's

00:30:49a bad habit

00:30:51and one of the

00:30:51that theory about having

00:30:53a settled

00:30:54if not bourgeois life

00:30:56but just a settled life

00:30:57in which

00:30:57things are

00:30:58love is

00:30:59there for you

00:31:00one of the advantages

00:31:01of that is that

00:31:02you don't

00:31:02you're not begging

00:31:03strangers

00:31:04for love

00:31:05and I hate doing that

00:31:06on the page

00:31:06I hate saying

00:31:07you know that

00:31:09Sally Field

00:31:09oh you really love me

00:31:10I don't want that

00:31:11on the page

00:31:12I want to

00:31:13kind of be in control there

00:31:14so that's I think

00:31:16where I sometimes

00:31:17know I'm writing badly

00:31:19when I'm needy

00:31:19that's the best way

00:31:20to put it

00:31:21I think one of the things

00:31:22I've come to really

00:31:23treasure about writing

00:31:24is that you do

00:31:25sometimes

00:31:26present as

00:31:28a self

00:31:28that you don't

00:31:29particularly love

00:31:30on the page

00:31:30and then you get a chance

00:31:32to see that

00:31:33and then go

00:31:34well actually

00:31:35I contain multitudes

00:31:36so I can

00:31:36adjust that

00:31:38and I can try to

00:31:39let another

00:31:39version of that

00:31:40of me come out

00:31:41but I love the idea

00:31:42that you can

00:31:43it's like a bit

00:31:44of a mirror

00:31:45your prose is a good mirror

00:31:46and then you can

00:31:47kind of

00:31:48choose not to be

00:31:49that person

00:31:50and delete that

00:31:51and try to

00:31:52or try to

00:31:52especially in nonfiction

00:31:54the first drafts

00:31:55are always kind of

00:31:56real cheerful

00:31:57and facile

00:31:58and there's a lot

00:31:59of assertion

00:32:00you know

00:32:00this is the greatest

00:32:02thing in the world

00:32:02and then

00:32:03and so I know

00:32:04that about myself

00:32:05and in the second pass

00:32:06I'm like okay

00:32:06you have to flesh this out

00:32:07with some specificity

00:32:08and that move

00:32:09from vague

00:32:12to specific

00:32:12seems to me

00:32:13holier and holier

00:32:14as I get older

00:32:15like if you say

00:32:16something that's

00:32:17vapid

00:32:18you can improve it

00:32:20by being specific

00:32:20in workshop

00:32:22if a student

00:32:23says something

00:32:24that's insulting

00:32:25it's almost always vague

00:32:27so a student

00:32:28will say

00:32:29oh this story's boring

00:32:30like

00:32:30you're not

00:32:31let's not say boring

00:32:32can you be more specific

00:32:33okay page 3 drags

00:32:37where

00:32:37page 3 paragraph 6

00:32:39oh actually

00:32:40it's not boring

00:32:41it doesn't drag

00:32:42there's just an extra

00:32:43repetition in there

00:32:45oh okay

00:32:46so that you can fix

00:32:48and the student

00:32:49doesn't feel accused

00:32:50and suddenly

00:32:51you've moved from

00:32:51this kind of vague

00:32:52agitated

00:32:54blaming

00:32:54into a very specific

00:32:56and actionable thing

00:32:56so I'm finding that

00:32:57true on so many

00:32:59politically

00:33:00and artistically

00:33:01and all kinds of levels

00:33:03you know

00:33:03so that's for me

00:33:04the first draft

00:33:05is kind of a blessing

00:33:05because even if it's

00:33:06really bad

00:33:07it's bad

00:33:08in a particular flavor

00:33:09that you can engage with

00:33:11Sadie do you feel like

00:33:12there's a big gap

00:33:13between first draft

00:33:14and final

00:33:15for you?

00:33:18I mean

00:33:18when I got to American

00:33:20into like teaching

00:33:21creative writing programs

00:33:22it took me a while

00:33:23to understand this thing

00:33:24about draft

00:33:26like the idea of

00:33:27a whole first draft

00:33:28a whole second draft

00:33:29I don't think I

00:33:30have ever worked that way

00:33:31because for me

00:33:32it's each page

00:33:33or each sentence

00:33:35I just go over

00:33:36and over it

00:33:36as I'm going

00:33:37until it's what

00:33:38I want it to be

00:33:38I do do that thing

00:33:40of reading from the beginning

00:33:41each time I open it

00:33:42that can be

00:33:44you know

00:33:44when I was younger

00:33:45maybe that was a kind of

00:33:46more joyful experience

00:33:49there's all

00:33:50other things going on

00:33:51as well right

00:33:51menopause

00:33:52anxiety

00:33:52reading from the beginning

00:33:54becomes like a high stress

00:33:55activity

00:33:56and hard to do

00:33:58and hard to kind of

00:33:59push out the voice

00:34:00that says it's no good

00:34:01it's no good

00:34:01and I also think

00:34:03with non-fiction

00:34:05that thing about

00:34:07clarity

00:34:08and being specific

00:34:09you absolutely need that

00:34:12but I am also

00:34:12a little bit wary

00:34:13of when you get to

00:34:15these kind of advanced years

00:34:17where maybe you're

00:34:18a little bit too good

00:34:18at that kind of thing

00:34:21and that can also be

00:34:22a kind of vapidness

00:34:23you know

00:34:23it sounds good

00:34:24it looks good

00:34:25it's kind of rhetorically

00:34:26whatever

00:34:27but it's not actually

00:34:28anything

00:34:29and I'm aware

00:34:30of that too

00:34:31that you

00:34:31to me now

00:34:33like the

00:34:34what I actually believe

00:34:36what I really feel

00:34:37is much more important

00:34:38than this kind of

00:34:40rhetorical gloss

00:34:41so that can sometimes

00:34:44mean essays that are

00:34:45you know

00:34:45uglier

00:34:46or not as pretty

00:34:47as they used to be

00:34:48but the main

00:34:50thing I feel

00:34:51with non-fiction

00:34:52always is that

00:34:52afterwards

00:34:53it feels like

00:34:55somebody else wrote it

00:34:56like you could never

00:34:56reconstruct

00:34:57the argument

00:34:58or

00:34:59it seems like a better

00:35:00part of yourself

00:35:01or someone who's

00:35:01more organised

00:35:02or doesn't ramble

00:35:03like I am right now

00:35:05or somebody wiser

00:35:06or so I've got used

00:35:07to thinking of

00:35:08when you write

00:35:11there's a better

00:35:12part of you

00:35:13that goes into action

00:35:14like I just don't

00:35:16recognise that person

00:35:17in my life

00:35:18I recognise them

00:35:19on the page

00:35:20yeah

00:35:21I mean you

00:35:22recently wrote

00:35:24an essay

00:35:25about writing essays

00:35:26and in that

00:35:28piece you talked

00:35:29about

00:35:30this idea

00:35:32of

00:35:33the essay

00:35:34as

00:35:35needing to speak

00:35:37to anyone

00:35:37who walks up

00:35:39to you

00:35:39on your soapbox

00:35:40in the comments

00:35:41and

00:35:43maybe

00:35:46the difficulty

00:35:46of writing

00:35:47for an unknown

00:35:48you know

00:35:49for anyone

00:35:50I mean that's my feeling

00:35:52I absolutely think

00:35:53other writers

00:35:54have a completely

00:35:55different tack

00:35:55and I'm so grateful

00:35:56for them

00:35:56but for me

00:35:59I think it's class based

00:36:00it's something to do

00:36:01with my childhood

00:36:02where I did feel

00:36:03like a lot of things

00:36:04were

00:36:04not for me

00:36:06or blocked off

00:36:07for me

00:36:07or I didn't have

00:36:07enough education

00:36:08or I didn't understand

00:36:09what was being said

00:36:10so then there's

00:36:13that instinct

00:36:14right

00:36:14to at least

00:36:15try and be

00:36:17as open as possible

00:36:18at the entrance

00:36:20that really does

00:36:22matter to me

00:36:23but it's

00:36:27you know

00:36:27some ideas

00:36:28are complicated

00:36:28sometimes it's hard

00:36:29to lay out

00:36:31things as openly

00:36:31as you'd want

00:36:32but to me

00:36:34if the gap

00:36:34is too large

00:36:35I experience it

00:36:37like I've done

00:36:40something wrong

00:36:42I remember

00:36:43when I wrote

00:36:43the Embassy of Cambodia

00:36:44it's like a little

00:36:45short story

00:36:46about a girl

00:36:46who is enslaved

00:36:48in my neighbourhood

00:36:50and there were

00:36:50many stories like that

00:36:51in my neighbourhood

00:36:52I'd read in the news

00:36:53and I wanted to make

00:36:55fiction out of it

00:36:55but part of the principle

00:36:56was if that girl

00:36:57ended up in a bookshop

00:36:58and saw this little book

00:36:59could she read it

00:37:00and I think

00:37:02for a lot of writers

00:37:03that doesn't come up

00:37:04they're kind of

00:37:05they come from

00:37:05upper middle class

00:37:06background

00:37:06their stories about

00:37:07professors

00:37:08and their father's

00:37:09a professor

00:37:09and it all works

00:37:10in one go

00:37:11but for me

00:37:12I want that gap

00:37:13to be as narrow

00:37:14as possible

00:37:14but it can't always be

00:37:15right

00:37:16sometimes it's impossible

00:37:17but that speaks to me

00:37:18because I think

00:37:19I've always thought

00:37:20of it first

00:37:22as entertainment

00:37:22of a very high order

00:37:25but then that means

00:37:26you have to have

00:37:26an intimate communication

00:37:28with your reader

00:37:30which means

00:37:31you have to

00:37:31in every instant

00:37:32be imagining

00:37:32where she is now

00:37:33where she is now

00:37:34and then editing

00:37:36is just the adjustment

00:37:37of that

00:37:37so the distance

00:37:38gets smaller

00:37:39so I think

00:37:40that's really

00:37:40the hopeful part

00:37:42of it

00:37:43is when I write

00:37:44to an imaginary reader

00:37:45who's just as smart

00:37:46just as curious

00:37:47just as good hearted

00:37:48as I am

00:37:49then when someone

00:37:51out there connects

00:37:51with it

00:37:52we've said a pretty

00:37:53profound thing

00:37:54which is that

00:37:54there is that connection

00:37:56and I think

00:37:57one of the

00:37:59I'll say

00:37:59speaking of politics

00:38:01one of the things

00:38:02that's gone wrong

00:38:03in our country

00:38:03is that at some point

00:38:04I don't know exactly

00:38:05when

00:38:05we start to devalue

00:38:07this kind of

00:38:08conversation

00:38:10in the commons idea

00:38:11and we also start

00:38:12to devalue

00:38:13literature

00:38:15I remember

00:38:15in our kids school

00:38:16at one point

00:38:17a teacher

00:38:18was teaching

00:38:19the essays

00:38:19of Ambrose Bierce

00:38:20which are really dark

00:38:22and really difficult

00:38:22and there was sort

00:38:23of a consensus

00:38:24that that's too much

00:38:25they weren't saying

00:38:27that about calculus

00:38:27which for me

00:38:28was way too much

00:38:29but so I think

00:38:31I haven't written about it

00:38:33so I don't know

00:38:33but it feels to me

00:38:34like the problem

00:38:35we're in right now

00:38:36is that we've lost

00:38:37the faith in one another

00:38:38and we've lost

00:38:40that intimate experience

00:38:42of saying

00:38:43oh other people

00:38:43are as real as I am

00:38:44I can communicate

00:38:45with them

00:38:46and the kind of

00:38:47high level prose

00:38:48that we're talking about

00:38:49is the way of

00:38:50mind to mind contact

00:38:51that I don't think

00:38:51you can get any other

00:38:52way and I think

00:38:53we're suffering for it

00:38:54actually

00:38:54I don't think

00:38:56it has to be

00:38:56I just read

00:38:57this wonderful essay

00:38:58by Karl Ove

00:38:59Nauskog

00:39:00I think it's called

00:39:02The Disenchanted World

00:39:03and he's a good example

00:39:05of prose

00:39:06that is as open

00:39:06as you need it to be

00:39:07like there's nothing

00:39:08complex about the way

00:39:09he writes in that essay

00:39:10but the ideas in it

00:39:11that we're living

00:39:12in a kind of

00:39:13constant simulacrum

00:39:14like it just feels

00:39:15hard to feel real

00:39:17to feel that your life

00:39:18is real

00:39:19that time is really passing

00:39:20he expresses it

00:39:22in such a simple

00:39:23and beautiful way

00:39:23and I felt it

00:39:24it's like that kind

00:39:25of direct communication

00:39:27it feels so rare

00:39:29and it's so energizing

00:39:31like I came out

00:39:32of the essay thinking

00:39:32yeah no

00:39:33I want to be

00:39:34in a field

00:39:36I want to look

00:39:36at this flower

00:39:37I want to touch grass

00:39:39as the kids say

00:39:39but it was such a

00:39:41beautiful and direct

00:39:42expression of that

00:39:43and writers like that

00:39:45to me are incredibly

00:39:46valuable

00:39:47like those are some

00:39:48of the most complicated

00:39:49arguments about

00:39:50reality and time

00:39:52and in the image

00:39:53factory and all

00:39:54the rest of it

00:39:54but he's able

00:39:55to put it in a way

00:39:56that I could give it

00:39:57to anyone I know

00:39:58and they would say

00:39:59oh yeah

00:39:59it's a real gift

00:40:01that kind of

00:40:02ability to express

00:40:04yourself

00:40:04with simplicity

00:40:05and at the highest level

00:40:07writing right now

00:40:09writing with

00:40:10the culture

00:40:11being what it is

00:40:13in this country

00:40:14in Britain as well

00:40:16to some extent

00:40:17do you feel

00:40:19oppressed by that

00:40:20do you feel

00:40:20a need to address

00:40:21it

00:40:21do you feel

00:40:22some writing

00:40:24is some way

00:40:24of bridging it

00:40:25does it

00:40:26or does it

00:40:27not affect

00:40:27what you do

00:40:28when you write

00:40:29fiction

00:40:29yeah I mean

00:40:32it affects

00:40:33everything

00:40:34also because

00:40:35it's

00:40:35it's in your

00:40:37family

00:40:37like in a family

00:40:38like mine

00:40:39I'm sure it's true

00:40:39for many people

00:40:40in the room

00:40:40you have every

00:40:41variety of

00:40:43political thought

00:40:44you have every

00:40:45response to

00:40:46the vaccine

00:40:47it's in my

00:40:48it's not like

00:40:48it's separate from me

00:40:49I'm in it all the time

00:40:50watching these

00:40:52violent arguments

00:40:55between people

00:40:55I love

00:40:56you know

00:40:56so I try

00:40:58and

00:40:58it's painful

00:41:01like I was talking

00:41:02to Jelani Cobb

00:41:03a few days ago

00:41:04and we met for coffee

00:41:06and we immediately

00:41:07went down

00:41:08various Trump holes

00:41:09and it went on

00:41:10for about an hour

00:41:10and a half

00:41:11and then I said

00:41:11to him

00:41:11you know

00:41:12I used to be

00:41:12more fun last century

00:41:13and he said

00:41:14everybody was more fun

00:41:15last century

00:41:16and that's how it is

00:41:18like it would have

00:41:18been lovely to sit

00:41:19with Jelani

00:41:19and talk about

00:41:20something else

00:41:21but we talked

00:41:22about what we talked

00:41:23about

00:41:23so that's just

00:41:25the reality

00:41:26I think

00:41:27there's no getting

00:41:28away from it

00:41:29and it's

00:41:29it is certainly

00:41:31odd being

00:41:31a writer

00:41:32not constitutionally

00:41:34I never expected

00:41:36to live in this world

00:41:38and I certainly

00:41:38my writing is not

00:41:39fit for it

00:41:40but here we are

00:41:41so you just

00:41:43you just have to

00:41:44to deal

00:41:45yeah

00:41:46I was saying

00:41:47there's that fable

00:41:47about the kingdom

00:41:49that had only one well

00:41:51and for some reason

00:41:53a wizard came in

00:41:54and poisoned the well

00:41:54I don't know why

00:41:55stupid wizard

00:41:56but then the effect

00:41:59was that everybody

00:41:59in the culture

00:42:00went insane

00:42:00and so the whole

00:42:02country is insane

00:42:03meanwhile on the hill

00:42:04there's a castle

00:42:04and the king

00:42:05has his own well

00:42:06so he's looking down

00:42:08and wow

00:42:08they think I'm insane

00:42:10so if I'm going

00:42:12to continue to rule

00:42:13I have to go

00:42:13drink the water

00:42:14so in the fable

00:42:16he goes on

00:42:16and drinks the poison water

00:42:17and he's crazy

00:42:18and he's a great leader

00:42:18so I think

00:42:21what I'm turning to

00:42:22again

00:42:22is the thought

00:42:23that those of us

00:42:24who would come

00:42:25to a literary event

00:42:26on a Saturday morning

00:42:27maybe our charge

00:42:28was restricting ourselves

00:42:30to the clean water

00:42:31or trying to

00:42:32be in touch

00:42:33with the clean water

00:42:34and have faith

00:42:37that that actually

00:42:38is a real thing

00:42:39water can be clean

00:42:40because I don't think

00:42:42that this particular

00:42:43administration

00:42:46really

00:42:47believes

00:42:51that what they're doing

00:42:52is in the best interest

00:42:54of the country

00:42:54and I think

00:42:54they're behaving

00:42:55somewhat like

00:42:56someone who's

00:42:58rushing for the door

00:42:59you know

00:43:00with certain

00:43:00ideas

00:43:02and goods

00:43:03under their arm

00:43:04so it's going to fade

00:43:06and when it does

00:43:07it would be up

00:43:08to people

00:43:09the people

00:43:10to remake it

00:43:11and we have to do

00:43:12it being in touch

00:43:13with the clean water

00:43:13and for me

00:43:15I mean

00:43:15and for you

00:43:16literature is

00:43:16is the cleanest

00:43:18so I think

00:43:19that's the kind

00:43:20of the

00:43:20I'm trying to

00:43:22pull myself

00:43:23off of despair

00:43:24by saying

00:43:24in this time

00:43:25we have to

00:43:26assert ourselves

00:43:27without losing

00:43:27ourselves

00:43:28so that when

00:43:29the dust clears

00:43:30we'll be ready

00:43:31to step back in

00:43:31and make it right

00:43:32again

00:43:33that's

00:43:33yeah

00:43:34applause

00:43:36I have no

00:43:43follow-up

00:43:44yeah

00:43:48of course

00:43:49but

00:43:49or not

00:43:50I mean

00:43:51yeah

00:43:51I mean

00:43:53it's also

00:43:53can

00:43:54can writing

00:43:56do anything

00:43:57to prevent

00:43:59the theft

00:43:59and to

00:44:00prevent the dust

00:44:02from falling

00:44:02I think age

00:44:04does help here

00:44:04like

00:44:05it doesn't help

00:44:06with almost

00:44:06everything

00:44:07but in

00:44:08one of the few

00:44:09things it does

00:44:09help with

00:44:09is historical memory

00:44:10so for example

00:44:12recently I was

00:44:13I just learned

00:44:14to drive

00:44:15age 50

00:44:15no congratulations

00:44:16thank you

00:44:16I was driving

00:44:18from Cambridge

00:44:20to London

00:44:21and for the first

00:44:24time in my

00:44:24human memory

00:44:25every village

00:44:27every village

00:44:28from Cambridge

00:44:28to London

00:44:28had a

00:44:29Union Jacks

00:44:30St George's flags

00:44:32it looked like

00:44:33Northern Ireland

00:44:33or New York

00:44:35just after 9-11

00:44:36and so

00:44:37I know flags

00:44:39are more normal

00:44:39here but in my

00:44:40country that is

00:44:40not normal

00:44:41so part of it

00:44:43is remembering

00:44:45and knowing

00:44:45what a flowering

00:44:48like that means

00:44:49because I've lived

00:44:50in a confident

00:44:50country that felt

00:44:52itself to be

00:44:54healthy and in

00:44:56a decent state

00:44:57and it had no flags

00:44:58so I know what

00:44:59flags mean

00:45:00I know that means

00:45:01crisis

00:45:01and who are we

00:45:03and what are we

00:45:03doing

00:45:03I know what it

00:45:04means

00:45:04and I think

00:45:05if you're young

00:45:05you might not

00:45:06know that

00:45:07that between

00:45:08Cambridge and

00:45:08London

00:45:09when I was 24

00:45:10you would never

00:45:10see a flag

00:45:11of any kind

00:45:11so that's part

00:45:14of it

00:45:14like what you

00:45:15would call

00:45:15institutional memory

00:45:16but for a country

00:45:17to say

00:45:18things were not

00:45:18always like this

00:45:19things might be

00:45:20different

00:45:21they're never

00:45:21going to be

00:45:22the same

00:45:22but there are

00:45:23things from the

00:45:24past that are

00:45:24worth attending

00:45:25to

00:45:26in the case

00:45:27of my country

00:45:28decent health care

00:45:29free education

00:45:30and decent housing

00:45:32so these things

00:45:33can exist

00:45:34they have existed

00:45:34they might exist

00:45:35again

00:45:36so I do

00:45:36when I think

00:45:38of my practical

00:45:39role

00:45:39if I have one

00:45:40it's just

00:45:41literally that

00:45:42saying these things

00:45:43are not daydreams

00:45:44they are available

00:45:45and were available

00:45:47for a great many

00:45:47people for a fair

00:45:48amount of time

00:45:49what can I say

00:45:50too I think

00:45:51this clean water

00:45:52function

00:45:53when I say that

00:45:56I always think

00:45:56of the fraud

00:45:57because

00:45:57there were some

00:45:59definitely political

00:46:00undertones

00:46:01but what I felt

00:46:02was the joy

00:46:03of the language

00:46:03and that in itself

00:46:04is a kind of

00:46:06a restoring

00:46:06of sanity

00:46:07to say

00:46:07oh we can

00:46:08communicate

00:46:09on a high level

00:46:10on the basis

00:46:10of truth

00:46:11and mutual respect

00:46:12and whether

00:46:13it's James Joyce

00:46:15or Grace Paley

00:46:16just that feeling

00:46:17of being in touch

00:46:18with another human

00:46:18being who thinks

00:46:19well of you

00:46:20who really thinks

00:46:21you can rise

00:46:22to the occasion

00:46:22that's a huge thing

00:46:23it doesn't have

00:46:24to be about politics

00:46:25but it just has

00:46:26to be the

00:46:27reimagining

00:46:28of ourselves

00:46:29as being in

00:46:29connection

00:46:30and having capacities

00:46:32I really felt

00:46:33with the fraud

00:46:33I know it's confusing

00:46:35but what I wanted

00:46:36was to say to a reader

00:46:38you can read

00:46:39I know that seems

00:46:40simple but

00:46:41you have capacities

00:46:42like you can figure

00:46:43things out

00:46:44you can move

00:46:44you're a person

00:46:45you're not a machine

00:46:46you don't think

00:46:47in ones and zeros

00:46:48you have this human

00:46:49capacity

00:46:49I did want to ask

00:46:51you about

00:46:52Trump's voice

00:46:53because when he

00:46:55first came up

00:46:56I thought

00:46:57my god

00:46:57he sounds like

00:46:58George

00:46:58and these are

00:47:01George's characters

00:47:01did you feel that

00:47:03because it felt

00:47:04like prophecy

00:47:05I felt it

00:47:06I felt it

00:47:07more and more

00:47:07and I think

00:47:08it's a canary

00:47:08in the coal mine

00:47:09kind of thing

00:47:09because I picked

00:47:10that up in Chicago

00:47:11when I was growing up

00:47:12and it was kind of

00:47:13and then during

00:47:14the Reagan years

00:47:15the language changed

00:47:15in a certain way

00:47:16so yeah

00:47:17it's a heavy

00:47:18it's a heavy

00:47:18responsibility

00:47:19it's like you

00:47:21invented him

00:47:22it's wild

00:47:22it's your Frankenstein

00:47:25maybe that means

00:47:30you know how to speak

00:47:31to him

00:47:33to people

00:47:34who do communicate

00:47:36in that way

00:47:36you know

00:47:37perhaps how to

00:47:38change the tone

00:47:40well I don't know

00:47:42that I do

00:47:42but I think

00:47:42that could be

00:47:43a thing

00:47:44you know

00:47:44that with our job

00:47:46we're supposed to be

00:47:48at the moment

00:47:49of composition

00:47:50very I think

00:47:51open

00:47:51non-judgmental

00:47:52listening for the voices

00:47:53and so in that mode

00:47:55I mean

00:47:56this new book

00:47:56has a guy

00:47:57the main character

00:47:58who's not a great guy

00:47:59at all

00:47:59so you had to spend

00:48:01some time with him

00:48:02and what you find out

00:48:03is just in terms

00:48:04of the mechanics

00:48:05if you have an opinion

00:48:07about somebody

00:48:07and you force it

00:48:08into the voice

00:48:09then people get

00:48:11a little bored

00:48:12because it's condescending

00:48:13and whereas if you say

00:48:15okay I'm going to pretend

00:48:15that in

00:48:16I could easily

00:48:18have been this guy

00:48:18in a parallel universe

00:48:20let me look at

00:48:21through his eyes

00:48:22with his sense

00:48:23of sympathy

00:48:23and engagement

00:48:24then you can actually

00:48:26imagine pretty much

00:48:27anybody I think

00:48:28I mean theoretically

00:48:29that's the theory

00:48:30but I think that's

00:48:31the key insight

00:48:31of fiction

00:48:32and it can be

00:48:33a political insight

00:48:34that everything

00:48:35about you is contingent

00:48:36it's all an accident

00:48:38you could have been

00:48:39born over there

00:48:39you could have been

00:48:40born in this place

00:48:40to these parents

00:48:41in this situation

00:48:42in this culture

00:48:42in the middle of this war

00:48:43knowing that contingency

00:48:45is important

00:48:46it makes you approach

00:48:47the thing differently

00:48:48this person is

00:48:49an unknowable devil

00:48:51in your life

00:48:52this is who you could have

00:48:53been in a second

00:48:54on the other hand

00:48:56those unknowable devils

00:48:58are not investing

00:48:59a lot of energy

00:49:00into understanding you

00:49:01and that's the big

00:49:03literary and political

00:49:04question right

00:49:05I hear it a lot

00:49:05that why should I

00:49:07make the extra effort

00:49:08to do this work

00:49:11of imagination

00:49:11when they refuse

00:49:12to do it otherwise

00:49:13no one can give you

00:49:14a reasonable case

00:49:15for that

00:49:16but I know

00:49:18to me the people

00:49:19who have affected

00:49:20some of the largest

00:49:21change in the world

00:49:22particularly about

00:49:23someone like Mandela

00:49:24both as activist

00:49:26in prison man

00:49:27and free man

00:49:27did that

00:49:29and I can understand

00:49:31the impatience

00:49:32with that

00:49:34necessity

00:49:35I don't

00:49:37I always say

00:49:37when thinking about

00:49:38people's political

00:49:39pessimism

00:49:40that they have

00:49:41every right to it

00:49:42particularly in this

00:49:43country

00:49:43given the history

00:49:45but in my character

00:49:49it doesn't exist

00:49:51I guess

00:49:51I still think that work

00:49:53is worth doing

00:49:54and I don't consider it

00:49:55a labor

00:49:56that's part of the problem

00:49:57it's conveyed as labor

00:49:59why should we work

00:50:00when they don't work

00:50:01but to me

00:50:03it's a boon

00:50:04in my life

00:50:05it's also

00:50:06it's very empowering

00:50:08to do that

00:50:08if you were going to

00:50:09resist a certain

00:50:10group of people

00:50:11I would say

00:50:12the number one thing

00:50:13you want to do

00:50:13is empathize with them

00:50:14and see it

00:50:15through their eyes

00:50:15because then

00:50:16you can actually

00:50:17resist them cleverly

00:50:19you know

00:50:19I think what

00:50:21what the left

00:50:22tends to do

00:50:22is you know

00:50:23we are afraid

00:50:25that we're enabling

00:50:26which we sometimes

00:50:27somebody drives a spike

00:50:28through your head

00:50:29and you say

00:50:29oh thank you

00:50:29for the coat rack

00:50:30you know

00:50:30but so

00:50:32it's just like

00:50:32that old joke

00:50:33about you know

00:50:34doctor it hurts

00:50:35when I do this

00:50:35don't do that

00:50:37don't enable

00:50:38but do it

00:50:39I try to do it

00:50:40in the spirit

00:50:40of a

00:50:41I don't want to

00:50:42use the word enemy

00:50:43but you know

00:50:43your opponent

00:50:44and then you know

00:50:45there's that

00:50:46word worth quote

00:50:47that I always mangled

00:50:47but basically

00:50:48if you could be

00:50:49in the mind

00:50:50of your enemy

00:50:51you'd see that

00:50:52they have all kinds

00:50:52of reasons

00:50:53and all kinds

00:50:54of pain

00:50:54and I don't

00:50:55I don't see that

00:50:56as necessarily

00:50:57a disenabling thing

00:50:58if you

00:50:59if you then

00:50:59roll out the red carpet

00:51:00then you're just

00:51:01a schmuck

00:51:01but if

00:51:02but if you say

00:51:02no now

00:51:04I know you

00:51:04and I'm

00:51:05afraid of you

00:51:06for this reason

00:51:07I'm not afraid

00:51:07of you for this reason

00:51:08I think that can be

00:51:10a really kind

00:51:10of good form

00:51:11of pushback

00:51:12in the process

00:51:14of writing

00:51:15characters

00:51:16who maybe

00:51:17you have worked

00:51:18hard to understand

00:51:20and

00:51:21who do bad things

00:51:24who do

00:51:25you know

00:51:25things

00:51:26not

00:51:27that

00:51:27other than

00:51:29what you would do

00:51:29how

00:51:31do you

00:51:32I mean

00:51:34you work

00:51:34to show

00:51:34the empathy

00:51:35do you work

00:51:38to

00:51:39make them

00:51:42end up

00:51:43better than

00:51:44they are

00:51:44do you

00:51:45do you

00:51:45try to find

00:51:46some redemption

00:51:47in it

00:51:47I think no

00:51:48I mean

00:51:49I think

00:51:49what you try

00:51:50to do

00:51:50is

00:51:50make a truly

00:51:52happy ending

00:51:52which is one

00:51:53that's truthful

00:51:54with what

00:51:54came before

00:51:55so if a person

00:51:57excuse me

00:51:57if a person

00:51:58does really

00:51:58bad things

00:51:59there's karma

00:52:01and there's

00:52:01cause and effect

00:52:02and I think

00:52:02the book

00:52:03should reflect

00:52:03that

00:52:03which can be

00:52:05an amazing

00:52:05combination

00:52:06if you have

00:52:06genuine empathy

00:52:09for somebody

00:52:10and you're

00:52:10inside their

00:52:11head

00:52:11and you

00:52:13do

00:52:13we do

00:52:14a bad

00:52:15thing

00:52:15and then

00:52:16the world

00:52:16responds

00:52:17that's really

00:52:18powerful

00:52:18that's

00:52:19you know

00:52:19that's

00:52:19I mean

00:52:19that's

00:52:20that Tolstoy

00:52:20master and

00:52:21man

00:52:21you know

00:52:22the guy

00:52:22who's a

00:52:23terrible guy

00:52:23terrible greedy

00:52:24guy

00:52:24and he

00:52:25gets in a

00:52:26snowstorm

00:52:26and ends

00:52:28up freezing

00:52:28spoiler alert

00:52:29freezes to death

00:52:30but in the

00:52:31process

00:52:31you become him

00:52:32and you kind

00:52:32of understand him

00:52:33and I'm very

00:52:34sad to see him

00:52:35die

00:52:35you know

00:52:35even though

00:52:37but it was his

00:52:38own arrogance

00:52:38that got him

00:52:39into that

00:52:39situation

00:52:39and killed

00:52:40him

00:52:40so

00:52:40powerful

00:52:41I'm going to

00:52:43throw something

00:52:43else in there

00:52:44because I had

00:52:45an email

00:52:46from Laurie

00:52:48Moore

00:52:48a day or two

00:52:49ago

00:52:50in which she

00:52:50said

00:52:51well

00:52:51you know

00:52:52apparently AI

00:52:53is going to

00:52:54destroy us

00:52:54within five

00:52:55years

00:52:55so

00:52:56throwing AI

00:52:57into the mix

00:52:58with writing

00:53:00with the world

00:53:01what kind

00:53:03of effect

00:53:04does it have

00:53:04on you

00:53:05I don't

00:53:05throw it

00:53:06into the mix

00:53:06I think

00:53:06of how

00:53:07incredible

00:53:07it is

00:53:08as a

00:53:08medical tool

00:53:09for example

00:53:10I just think

00:53:11the argument

00:53:12we have

00:53:12about it

00:53:12is

00:53:13not really

00:53:15what AI

00:53:15is about

00:53:16it's about

00:53:17massive

00:53:17data sets

00:53:18it can be

00:53:18incredibly

00:53:19useful

00:53:19in many

00:53:20other areas

00:53:20in writing

00:53:21I don't think

00:53:22this is the

00:53:23major concern

00:53:24personally

00:53:25I don't

00:53:26engage with it

00:53:28I don't really

00:53:28think about it

00:53:29there's nothing

00:53:29written by AI

00:53:30that I

00:53:32particularly want

00:53:33to read

00:53:33because that's

00:53:34not what I

00:53:34read for

00:53:34I want

00:53:35to be in

00:53:36touch with

00:53:36a human

00:53:36being

00:53:37that's

00:53:37what I

00:53:37actively

00:53:38want

00:53:38so I

00:53:40don't

00:53:41I just

00:53:43think we

00:53:43sound a little

00:53:44bit ridiculous

00:53:44in the literary

00:53:45community

00:53:45panicking

00:53:46about AI

00:53:47when AI

00:53:48has so many

00:53:49other

00:53:49more practical

00:53:50and kind

00:53:51of functional

00:53:52uses that

00:53:52we're too

00:53:53stupid to

00:53:53understand

00:53:54so I

00:53:54don't

00:53:55really

00:53:55I don't

00:53:56I don't

00:53:57know

00:53:57I don't

00:53:58panic

00:53:58that much

00:53:58it's so

00:53:59far from

00:53:59what I

00:54:00go to

00:54:01literature

00:54:01for

00:54:01if you're

00:54:02an actor

00:54:02however

00:54:03that is

00:54:06frightening

00:54:08yeah

00:54:08the video

00:54:09is pretty

00:54:10wild

00:54:11but I

00:54:11don't know

00:54:12there's nothing

00:54:14in its

00:54:15rightly

00:54:15form

00:54:16that is

00:54:17of any

00:54:17interest

00:54:18to me

00:54:18I was

00:54:21thinking

00:54:21that when

00:54:22I pick

00:54:23up

00:54:23Zadie's

00:54:25book

00:54:25I'm

00:54:25picking up

00:54:26her whole

00:54:27history

00:54:27of reading

00:54:27where

00:54:28she

00:54:28read

00:54:28what

00:54:29she

00:54:29was

00:54:29like

00:54:29before

00:54:29and

00:54:30after

00:54:30she

00:54:30read

00:54:30back

00:54:3130

00:54:31years

00:54:32ago

00:54:32all that

00:54:33encoding

00:54:33is in

00:54:34there

00:54:34and then

00:54:34together

00:54:34we're

00:54:35kind

00:54:35of

00:54:35leaning

00:54:35over

00:54:35the text

00:54:36and she

00:54:36describes

00:54:37the smell

00:54:37of grass

00:54:38and I go

00:54:38oh yeah

00:54:38yeah

00:54:39AI just

00:54:40literally

00:54:41can't do

00:54:42that

00:54:42it can

00:54:42kind of

00:54:44regurgitate

00:54:45someone else's

00:54:46description

00:54:46of grass

00:54:47and the

00:54:48danger

00:54:48is we

00:54:49might forget

00:54:50how to tell

00:54:51the difference

00:54:51that's a

00:54:53problem

00:54:53but I

00:54:54think in

00:54:55terms of

00:54:55neurology

00:54:55the human

00:54:56brain

00:54:56we think

00:54:59and feel

00:55:00and we

00:55:00have the

00:55:00qualia we

00:55:01have because

00:55:01of the

00:55:02physical shape

00:55:04of the

00:55:04brain

00:55:04AI just

00:55:06imitates

00:55:07that

00:55:07so I think

00:55:07that's exactly

00:55:08right

00:55:08some things

00:55:08it's going

00:55:09to be great

00:55:09for I guess

00:55:10I don't know

00:55:11unemployment

00:55:11great for that

00:55:12but for the

00:55:15things that are

00:55:15precious to us

00:55:16it's not going

00:55:17to hurt us

00:55:17except I think

00:55:18I do notice

00:55:20this

00:55:20when you read

00:55:21people's writing

00:55:22we're starting

00:55:23to sound more

00:55:24like AI

00:55:24that's it

00:55:25that's a great

00:55:26idea

00:55:26that's a great

00:55:27idea

00:55:27I love that

00:55:28for you

00:55:28you know

00:55:28that kind

00:55:29of thing

00:55:29well speak it

00:55:30yeah

00:55:30I love that

00:55:31for you

00:55:32yeah

00:55:32you're an

00:55:33amazing person

00:55:34of like

00:55:35meme like

00:55:37phrases

00:55:37as a human

00:55:39being

00:55:39that's the

00:55:40way I think

00:55:41about all of it

00:55:41it's not

00:55:42that the

00:55:43robots are

00:55:44going to take

00:55:44over it's

00:55:45that we

00:55:45become like

00:55:46them

00:55:46we respond

00:55:48to them

00:55:48we become

00:55:49in their

00:55:49image

00:55:50and that's

00:55:50the bit

00:55:50I find

00:55:51kind of

00:55:52you know

00:55:54a little

00:55:54tragic

00:55:54yeah

00:55:55well

00:55:56it is

00:55:56time to

00:55:57take

00:55:58audience

00:55:58questions

00:55:59and if

00:55:59you've

00:55:59typed

00:56:00them

00:56:00and

00:56:00text

00:56:01them

00:56:01they

00:56:02should

00:56:02show up

00:56:02on this

00:56:04iPad

00:56:04we were

00:56:04wondering

00:56:05backstage

00:56:06what it

00:56:06was for

00:56:06imagine

00:56:07you're

00:56:08creating

00:56:08a new

00:56:08English

00:56:09literature

00:56:09curriculum

00:56:10for

00:56:10incoming

00:56:10freshmen

00:56:11at a

00:56:11college

00:56:12or

00:56:12university

00:56:12in the

00:56:13United

00:56:13States

00:56:1320

00:56:14years

00:56:14from

00:56:14now

00:56:15name

00:56:16one

00:56:16existing

00:56:17short

00:56:17story

00:56:18play

00:56:18or

00:56:18novel

00:56:18you

00:56:19would

00:56:19include

00:56:19I

00:56:22mean

00:56:22it's

00:56:23probably

00:56:23lame

00:56:24to

00:56:24choose

00:56:24George

00:56:25but I

00:56:25am

00:56:25going

00:56:25to

00:56:25choose

00:56:26George

00:56:26because I

00:56:27think

00:56:28that is

00:56:28the voice

00:56:29of the

00:56:29American

00:56:30berserk

00:56:31and

00:56:31Civil War

00:56:32land

00:56:32in bad

00:56:33decline

00:56:33is a

00:56:34prophecy

00:56:35yeah

00:56:36I'll

00:56:38I'll

00:56:38do the

00:56:38same

00:56:38trick

00:56:39and say

00:56:39the

00:56:39fraud

00:56:39should

00:56:39mean

00:56:40but

00:56:40no

00:56:41but

00:56:41I

00:56:42mean

00:56:42that

00:56:42but

00:56:42also

00:56:43we

00:56:43do

00:56:44this

00:56:44thing

00:56:44called

00:56:44story

00:56:45club

00:56:45on

00:56:45subsdeck

00:56:46and

00:56:46we

00:56:47just

00:56:47taught

00:56:47a story

00:56:48by

00:56:48Samantha

00:56:48Schwablin

00:56:49called

00:56:49A Fabulous

00:56:51Animal

00:56:51and

00:56:52it

00:56:52was

00:56:52so

00:56:52much

00:56:53fun

00:56:53to

00:56:53watch

00:56:53the

00:56:54community

00:56:54run

00:56:55at

00:56:55that

00:56:55story

00:56:55because

00:56:56there's

00:56:56nothing

00:56:56particularly

00:56:58contemporary

00:56:58or political

00:56:59but it's

00:57:00just a

00:57:00beautiful

00:57:01puzzle

00:57:01and

00:57:02it

00:57:02was

00:57:02just

00:57:03I

00:57:03mean

00:57:03hundreds

00:57:04of people

00:57:05engaging

00:57:05why did

00:57:05this

00:57:06story

00:57:06move

00:57:06us

00:57:06I

00:57:07would

00:57:07maybe

00:57:07put

00:57:08that

00:57:08one

00:57:08in

00:57:08just

00:57:08because

00:57:08it's

00:57:09not

00:57:09easy

00:57:09to

00:57:11relate

00:57:11that

00:57:11to

00:57:12these

00:57:12times

00:57:12but

00:57:13except

00:57:13it's

00:57:14kind

00:57:14of

00:57:14eternal

00:57:14in

00:57:15the

00:57:15way

00:57:15that

00:57:15people

00:57:17were

00:57:17just

00:57:17delighted

00:57:17by

00:57:21eternal

00:57:21like

00:57:22I

00:57:22love

00:57:22imaginative

00:57:23writing

00:57:23particularly

00:57:24for that

00:57:25reason

00:57:25a lot

00:57:26of

00:57:26contemporary

00:57:27writers

00:57:27don't have

00:57:29the kind

00:57:29of imagination

00:57:30she has

00:57:30it's like

00:57:31it's really

00:57:32intense

00:57:32all the way

00:57:33down

00:57:33yeah

00:57:34I'll second

00:57:35that one

00:57:35well there are

00:57:37a couple of

00:57:37questions that

00:57:38are sort of

00:57:38similar

00:57:38one is

00:57:39it says

00:57:41I know

00:57:41you George

00:57:42were a

00:57:42songwriter

00:57:43and you

00:57:43Zadie

00:57:44sing

00:57:44can you

00:57:45speak about

00:57:45songwriting

00:57:46and the

00:57:46compression

00:57:46needed for

00:57:47a good

00:57:47song

00:57:48and the

00:57:48ways in

00:57:48which

00:57:48song

00:57:49and

00:57:49songwriting

00:57:49have

00:57:50influenced

00:57:51you

00:57:52in

00:57:52your

00:57:52work

00:57:52I'm

00:57:53actually

00:57:53writing

00:57:54songs

00:57:54at the

00:57:54moment

00:57:54because

00:57:55I'm

00:57:55trying

00:57:55to

00:57:55write

00:57:55a

00:57:56musical

00:57:56and

00:57:56the

00:57:57thing

00:57:57I

00:57:57noticed

00:57:58which

00:57:58it has

00:57:59in

00:57:59common

00:58:00with

00:58:01dialogue

00:58:01is the

00:58:02most common

00:58:03mistake

00:58:03when I

00:58:04was teaching

00:58:04is that

00:58:05people want

00:58:05dialogue

00:58:06to sound

00:58:06smart

00:58:07like they're

00:58:08projecting

00:58:09themselves

00:58:09into it

00:58:09they want

00:58:10to be

00:58:10seen

00:58:10as

00:58:11smart

00:58:11and

00:58:11they

00:58:11want

00:58:11the

00:58:11dialogue

00:58:12to

00:58:12prove

00:58:13that

00:58:13they

00:58:13are

00:58:13the

00:58:14consciousness

00:58:14behind

00:58:15it

00:58:15all

00:58:15is

00:58:16smart

00:58:16and

00:58:17for

00:58:18me

00:58:18songwriting

00:58:20like

00:58:20a lot

00:58:21of

00:58:21novelists

00:58:21try to

00:58:22write

00:58:22songs

00:58:22and

00:58:22quite

00:58:23often

00:58:23it

00:58:23goes

00:58:23wrong

00:58:23because

00:58:24that

00:58:24instinct

00:58:24comes

00:58:25back

00:58:25like

00:58:25let me

00:58:25show

00:58:25you

00:58:26my

00:58:26fancy

00:58:26lyrics

00:58:27and

00:58:28to me

00:58:29lyrically

00:58:29the most

00:58:30important

00:58:30thing

00:58:30is

00:58:30simplicity

00:58:31and

00:58:32the music

00:58:32has

00:58:32such

00:58:33an

00:58:33enormous

00:58:34role

00:58:35in it

00:58:36that

00:58:37I

00:58:37don't

00:58:37need

00:58:37these

00:58:38kind

00:58:38of

00:58:38complex

00:58:39overdone

00:58:41lyrics

00:58:41and

00:58:41that

00:58:42instinct

00:58:42when I'm

00:58:43writing

00:58:43dialogue

00:58:44is the

00:58:44same

00:58:45I'm

00:58:45not

00:58:45trying

00:58:46to

00:58:46make

00:58:46this

00:58:46character

00:58:47impress

00:58:47you

00:58:47I'm

00:58:48trying

00:58:48to

00:58:48ask

00:58:48myself

00:58:49is

00:58:50this

00:58:50what

00:58:50she

00:58:51would

00:58:51say

00:58:51and

00:58:52do

00:58:52it

00:58:52almost

00:58:53subconsciously

00:58:53like

00:58:53the

00:58:53dialogue

00:58:54you

00:58:54write

00:58:54so

00:58:54quickly

00:58:55there's

00:58:56something

00:58:56I'm

00:58:57a

00:58:57failed

00:58:58songwriter

00:58:59and

00:58:59the

00:58:59reason

00:58:59is

00:58:59for

00:59:00that

00:59:00I

00:59:00always

00:59:01try

00:59:01to

00:59:01make

00:59:01them

00:59:01really

00:59:01smart

00:59:02story

00:59:03songs

00:59:03once

00:59:04upon

00:59:04a

00:59:04time

00:59:05in a

00:59:05capitalist

00:59:05but I

00:59:08think

00:59:09the word

00:59:10that comes

00:59:10to mind

00:59:10is

00:59:10offhanded

00:59:11wouldn't

00:59:13it be

00:59:14nice

00:59:14if we

00:59:14could

00:59:14wake

00:59:15up

00:59:15that

00:59:15offhanded

00:59:17kind

00:59:17of

00:59:17lyric

00:59:18I have

00:59:19a real

00:59:19hard

00:59:19time

00:59:19with

00:59:20that

00:59:20I'm

00:59:20not

00:59:20sure

00:59:20which

00:59:21offhanded

00:59:21thing

00:59:21I

00:59:21should

00:59:22say

00:59:22but I

00:59:23really

00:59:24admire

00:59:24the

00:59:25great

00:59:25song

00:59:25Jeff

00:59:25Tweedy

00:59:26I

00:59:26really

00:59:26admire

00:59:26his

00:59:27stuff

00:59:27amazing

00:59:27if

00:59:29you've

00:59:30been

00:59:30working

00:59:30on

00:59:30a

00:59:30project

00:59:31and

00:59:31you've

00:59:31hit

00:59:31a

00:59:32big

00:59:32problem

00:59:32with

00:59:32it

00:59:33what

00:59:34was

00:59:34the

00:59:34problem

00:59:34and

00:59:34what

00:59:34did

00:59:35you

00:59:35do

00:59:35to

00:59:35solve

00:59:36it

00:59:36with me

00:59:37the problem

00:59:38is always

00:59:38some form of

00:59:39despair

00:59:40and then I

00:59:40throw it away

00:59:41and then I have to

00:59:42credit my husband

00:59:43who almost always says

00:59:44he saved

00:59:46he saved NW

00:59:46that was going

00:59:47towards the bin

00:59:48on beauty

00:59:49at one point

00:59:50was going

00:59:50in the bin

00:59:51so

00:59:51it's partly

00:59:53somebody else

00:59:54being reasonable

00:59:55and saying

00:59:57calm down

00:59:59maybe it's okay

01:00:00but yeah

01:00:02I don't like a roadblock

01:00:03in a novel

01:00:04I don't

01:00:05I want it

01:00:06to just flow

01:00:07and sometimes

01:00:08the smallest

01:00:09difficulty

01:00:09and I'm like

01:00:10a baby

01:00:10like

01:00:11forget it

01:00:12I don't need

01:00:13to do this

01:00:13that happens

01:00:14a lot

01:00:14so it's just

01:00:16about

01:00:16persisting

01:00:17and not

01:00:18throwing all my

01:00:19toys out of the

01:00:20pram

01:00:20that can

01:00:21very easily

01:00:22happen with me

01:00:22I like that

01:00:23thing

01:00:24I think

01:00:24Randall Jarrell

01:00:25said

01:00:25a novel

01:00:27is a long

01:00:27work of prose

01:00:28that has

01:00:28something wrong

01:00:29with it

01:00:29so accepting it

01:00:31yeah

01:00:32so I mean

01:00:32so I feel like

01:00:33well we had

01:00:34that story

01:00:35Sea Oak

01:00:35many years ago

01:00:36and that was a story

01:00:37that I locked up

01:00:38for about five years

01:00:39at this one place

01:00:40I knew that

01:00:40first six or seven

01:00:42pages was good

01:00:42and I couldn't

01:00:43get through it

01:00:43and I was just

01:00:46so then I turned

01:00:48to myself

01:00:49what's the problem

01:00:50you teach

01:00:51you big faker

01:00:52why can't you finish

01:00:53the story

01:00:54and I was actually

01:00:56taking a shower

01:00:56and I was saying

01:00:57to myself

01:00:57what's wrong

01:00:58with you

01:00:58idiot

01:00:59why can't you finish

01:01:00this

01:01:00you know

01:01:01that Aunt Bernie

01:01:02has to come back

01:01:02and then just

01:01:04some little

01:01:04from some place

01:01:05in my brain

01:01:06it just went

01:01:06from the dead

01:01:07like wow

01:01:08so I think

01:01:10sometimes

01:01:10getting to a place

01:01:12where there's a problem

01:01:13turning to the story

01:01:14and saying

01:01:14can I help you

01:01:15with this

01:01:16what's going on

01:01:18and you said

01:01:18the story says

01:01:19well you have a problem

01:01:20and as a writer

01:01:22you want to say

01:01:22no I don't

01:01:23it was good yesterday

01:01:24I know what I'm doing

01:01:25it's about patriarchy

01:01:26or whatever

01:01:27and then

01:01:28but if you wait

01:01:28then the story

01:01:29will kind of say

01:01:30no you do have a problem

01:01:31and here's what it is

01:01:31and then

01:01:32just in addressing that

01:01:33it becomes not so much

01:01:34a problem

01:01:35but it can become

01:01:36a technical aspect

01:01:37of the book

01:01:39that's telling you

01:01:39which way to go

01:01:40so that takes the same thing

01:01:41kind of patience

01:01:43and a little bit of

01:01:43I think a little bit

01:01:44of despair

01:01:45like ah

01:01:45it was supposed to be easy

01:01:47and it wasn't

01:01:48okay

01:01:48we have a subscriber

01:01:51to your sub stack

01:01:52George

01:01:53who wants to know

01:01:54how do you

01:01:58how does

01:02:00doing that

01:02:01supplement

01:02:02or inform

01:02:02or detract

01:02:03from your writing practice

01:02:04I think it's been all good

01:02:06I mean I kind of

01:02:07don't do it

01:02:08during writing time

01:02:09do it later at night

01:02:09and the best thing

01:02:11has just been the people

01:02:12it's you know

01:02:13I kind of thought

01:02:14oh it's going to be

01:02:14the internet

01:02:15and it'll be difficult

01:02:16but the people

01:02:17who showed up

01:02:18were so positive

01:02:19and smart

01:02:20that it's been

01:02:21a way of kind of

01:02:23I don't know

01:02:24if you have this

01:02:24but sometimes internally

01:02:25you know

01:02:27before you do something

01:02:27like this

01:02:28you're kind of

01:02:28full of fear

01:02:29and like oh

01:02:30they're not going to like it

01:02:31you know

01:02:31but that sub stack

01:02:32is a way of saying

01:02:33there's a lot of

01:02:34like-minded people

01:02:34who are

01:02:35they do like literature

01:02:37and they do show up for it

01:02:38so I found it makes

01:02:39it's making me

01:02:40I think marginally

01:02:41more courageous

01:02:41to say

01:02:42this tolerant group

01:02:43of people

01:02:44will take whatever

01:02:45I you know

01:02:46can come up with

01:02:47it's a question

01:02:48from a visual artist

01:02:49who would like to know

01:02:50what are three things

01:02:51you do in your free time

01:02:52that inspire you

01:02:54and are unrelated

01:02:55to reading or writing

01:02:56three

01:02:58three

01:02:59this is very specific

01:03:03if you only have one

01:03:06then say

01:03:06yeah

01:03:07well definitely

01:03:09the visual arts

01:03:10you know

01:03:11that's been a huge

01:03:12part of my life

01:03:15in the past

01:03:1510-15 years

01:03:16and partly because

01:03:17of children

01:03:18that I did realize

01:03:19it was something

01:03:19I could do

01:03:20with my hands full

01:03:21like looking

01:03:22at art

01:03:23and then

01:03:24being in New York

01:03:25and having relationships

01:03:26with visual artists

01:03:27friendships

01:03:27that really expanded

01:03:30my view

01:03:31of what art is

01:03:33like I was so

01:03:34parochial

01:03:34so stuck in writing

01:03:36all I did was read

01:03:36and I think

01:03:37New York opened up

01:03:39to me a lot of other

01:03:40forms of art practice

01:03:41you know

01:03:42so that's a huge thing

01:03:44and comedy

01:03:45I guess

01:03:46I've always

01:03:46my brother's a comedian

01:03:47I always loved

01:03:49being around comedians

01:03:50in New York

01:03:51or just watching

01:03:52the way comedy works

01:03:53is so useful

01:03:54for me

01:03:55it's so

01:03:55the disarming

01:03:57part of it

01:03:57like watching

01:03:58my brother on stage

01:03:59what he's able to do

01:04:00where he's able to go

01:04:01where the conversation

01:04:01can be carried

01:04:02when there's humor

01:04:03in it

01:04:03it's such a great

01:04:05lesson for any writer

01:04:06you can get a lot

01:04:07further

01:04:07if people are laughing

01:04:09and then

01:04:12just music

01:04:13dancing

01:04:14you know

01:04:15that's about the only

01:04:16time I'm in my body

01:04:17so that's always good

01:04:19I think my music

01:04:23for sure

01:04:23mostly because

01:04:24it's just like

01:04:25enforced beginner mind

01:04:26like I'm going to

01:04:27write a song

01:04:27and then you write

01:04:28and you go

01:04:28oh god

01:04:29and so then I have

01:04:30sympathy for my students

01:04:32if they're struggling

01:04:33and then it's such a relief

01:04:35to go back to

01:04:35writing prose

01:04:37which I feel

01:04:37with music

01:04:38I don't feel

01:04:39I can do something

01:04:40and go yeah

01:04:40that's kind of music

01:04:42wait do you play

01:04:43an instrument

01:04:44I play guitar

01:04:44yeah

01:04:45yeah

01:04:46but so I play it

01:04:47and at the critical moment

01:04:49I don't have that

01:04:50really like

01:04:50killer instinct

01:04:51about what I should

01:04:52or shouldn't do

01:04:53I just think

01:04:53yeah that's kind of

01:04:54alright

01:04:54but with prose

01:04:56I get to a point

01:04:57and I have very strong

01:04:58opinions about it

01:04:59so it's refreshing

01:05:00to go from something

01:05:00where you're kind of

01:05:01in the haze

01:05:02into something

01:05:03where you feel

01:05:03really really strong

01:05:05and then the only

01:05:06other thing

01:05:06we have an elderly dog

01:05:08and I've been

01:05:09walking her

01:05:10and she walks

01:05:11very slowly now

01:05:12and it's a great

01:05:13way to get into

01:05:14conversation with people

01:05:15yeah

01:05:16yeah because she's

01:05:16really cute

01:05:17I had one of those

01:05:17yeah

01:05:18and that's been

01:05:19kind of

01:05:19especially again

01:05:20in these times

01:05:21you know

01:05:21to stop for a moment

01:05:22and try to see

01:05:23can we get into

01:05:24an actual conversation

01:05:25with the pretext

01:05:27of praising my dog

01:05:28which is good

01:05:28and actually you can

01:05:30and people are so

01:05:31so hungry for that

01:05:33I think

01:05:33you know

01:05:33to have some kind

01:05:34of just

01:05:35conversation

01:05:36so that's been

01:05:37kind of a hobby

01:05:37is to take the dog

01:05:38on a very slow walk

01:05:39and just see how many

01:05:40people we can

01:05:40we can bother

01:05:42I guess

01:05:43I'm that guy

01:05:45I really like your shoes

01:05:47they look great

01:05:48where'd you get them

01:05:48you've both had

01:05:54great success

01:05:55in multiple formats

01:05:56how do you think

01:05:56about whether

01:05:57an idea should

01:05:57take the shape

01:05:58of a novel

01:05:59a short story

01:05:59an essay

01:06:00or something else

01:06:01I mean

01:06:03I think those things

01:06:04are like

01:06:04it's like a prison

01:06:05you're designing

01:06:06for yourself

01:06:06so the question is

01:06:07how long do you

01:06:07want to be

01:06:08in this cell

01:06:09and so a novel

01:06:12really has to have

01:06:13so much

01:06:15you have to have

01:06:16such a strong impulse

01:06:17because it's such

01:06:18a long time

01:06:18and a short story

01:06:20can just be a straight

01:06:21short

01:06:22like almost

01:06:23kind of a compulsive

01:06:24thing

01:06:25but novels

01:06:26I do like

01:06:27I'm starting on this

01:06:28novel now

01:06:28and I want it to be

01:06:29funny and I want it

01:06:30to be short

01:06:30but there's a dread

01:06:31in you thinking

01:06:31is it going to be

01:06:32funny

01:06:33is it going to be

01:06:34short

01:06:34or is this another

01:06:34four years of my life

01:06:36in this cell

01:06:37so

01:06:38I don't know

01:06:40as I get older

01:06:41I just

01:06:42first of all

01:06:43ambition fades

01:06:45I think

01:06:45I was doing

01:06:47the podcast

01:06:48with David Remnick

01:06:49a few days ago

01:06:50and he said to me

01:06:51well you must have

01:06:51been very ambitious

01:06:52and I was kind of

01:06:53shocked by it

01:06:53I guess from this

01:06:54Protestant background

01:06:55I thought

01:06:56was I

01:06:57but then when you

01:06:57look back

01:06:58you think

01:06:58well you must have

01:06:59been

01:06:59to do all of that

01:07:00work

01:07:00you must have

01:07:01had some

01:07:02idea of where

01:07:03you were going

01:07:03but definitely

01:07:04looking up now

01:07:06I don't have

01:07:07that strong

01:07:10impulse

01:07:10and I do feel

01:07:12more and more

01:07:13that I want to be

01:07:13out on the street

01:07:15with a dog

01:07:15talking to people

01:07:17I don't want to

01:07:17miss life

01:07:18I guess that's

01:07:18how I put it

01:07:19and for me

01:07:20a lot of writing

01:07:21involves

01:07:23kind of

01:07:25the recreation

01:07:25of life

01:07:26something that looks

01:07:27like life

01:07:27but it's not life

01:07:28it's a controlled

01:07:29area

01:07:30and I was always

01:07:32haunted by that

01:07:32line from

01:07:33is it called

01:07:34Asymmetry

01:07:34by Lisa

01:07:36it was about

01:07:37Roth

01:07:37it was kind of

01:07:38a novel

01:07:38it's kind of

01:07:39disguised

01:07:40not very disguised

01:07:41novel about

01:07:41Philip Roth

01:07:42and there's a bit

01:07:43where he

01:07:44the character

01:07:45is in hospital

01:07:47and he's

01:07:47fascinated suddenly

01:07:48by a couple

01:07:49who are praying

01:07:50in the emergency

01:07:51room

01:07:51but then the

01:07:52nurse offers

01:07:52a private

01:07:53room

01:07:53and he

01:07:53immediately

01:07:54takes it

01:07:54and Lisa

01:07:55writes

01:07:55that's a writer

01:07:56he's fascinated

01:07:57by humanity

01:07:58but he'd like

01:07:58the private

01:07:59room

01:07:59and it always

01:08:02haunted me

01:08:02the idea

01:08:03that oh

01:08:03you love

01:08:03people

01:08:04but you're

01:08:04not actually

01:08:05around them

01:08:05you're in your

01:08:06room kind of

01:08:07creating them

01:08:08and I don't

01:08:09I don't want

01:08:10that I guess

01:08:11is what I mean

01:08:12I really try

01:08:13and make

01:08:15myself go out

01:08:16there and not

01:08:16just have people

01:08:17in the abstract

01:08:18people in

01:08:19reality

01:08:19because time's

01:08:21running out

01:08:21and you just

01:08:22can't invent

01:08:23this world

01:08:23in your room

01:08:24every day

01:08:24it's not healthy

01:08:25George you

01:08:27mentioned that

01:08:27there was a

01:08:28period of time

01:08:28in your life

01:08:29where there

01:08:29were positive

01:08:30valences

01:08:31that were

01:08:32difficult to

01:08:32find a voice

01:08:33for

01:08:33for both

01:08:34of you

01:08:34do you think

01:08:34it's harder

01:08:35to write

01:08:35well about

01:08:36positive emotions

01:08:37or experiences

01:08:38than it is

01:08:38about more

01:08:39difficult ones

01:08:40I think it

01:08:42is because

01:08:43I think the

01:08:44story form

01:08:44is sort of

01:08:45designed to

01:08:46be about

01:08:46when things

01:08:47change

01:08:48and usually

01:08:48they change

01:08:49you know

01:08:50so if you

01:08:51had you know

01:08:51once upon a

01:08:53time there

01:08:53was Little Red

01:08:54writing

01:08:54grandmother

01:08:55said don't

01:08:55go out

01:08:56and if you

01:08:56see a wolf

01:08:57don't engage

01:08:58and then she

01:08:58didn't

01:08:59so I think

01:09:03that

01:09:03but I think

01:09:05the

01:09:05one thing

01:09:07we should

01:09:07remember

01:09:08is the

01:09:08positive

01:09:08valences

01:09:09they don't

01:09:09necessarily

01:09:10have to do

01:09:10with what

01:09:11happens

01:09:11in the

01:09:11story

01:09:12they can

01:09:13have to

01:09:13do with

01:09:13the organic

01:09:14way that

01:09:15the story

01:09:15changes

01:09:15so like

01:09:16in Lincoln

01:09:16I was very

01:09:17surprised

01:09:18to find

01:09:18out

01:09:18that

01:09:19one of

01:09:20the things

01:09:20that was

01:09:20happening

01:09:21not

01:09:21because I

01:09:22wanted to

01:09:23was that

01:09:23all the

01:09:23characters

01:09:24were rising

01:09:24to certain

01:09:25occasions

01:09:25this willie

01:09:26was bringing

01:09:27something out

01:09:28of them

01:09:28so it

01:09:29it doesn't

01:09:30really have

01:09:30a happy

01:09:32ending

01:09:32necessarily

01:09:32but

01:09:33but

01:09:33but the

01:09:34shape

01:09:34inside

01:09:35was

01:09:36kind of

01:09:36going

01:09:37towards

01:09:37light

01:09:38so I

01:09:38think

01:09:38and even

01:09:39beyond that

01:09:40even if

01:09:40it's like

01:09:41Flannery O'Connor

01:09:42those things

01:09:44are so beautifully

01:09:44made

01:09:45that they're

01:09:45joyful

01:09:46even when

01:09:46they're

01:09:46super

01:09:47super

01:09:47dark

01:09:47so I

01:09:48think

01:09:48that's

01:09:48where

01:09:48the hope

01:09:49comes from

01:09:49not that

01:09:50everything

01:09:50turns out

01:09:51well

01:09:51or that

01:09:51we have

01:09:52redemption

01:09:52but that

01:09:53the redemption

01:09:53is in the

01:09:54execution

01:09:54and as

01:09:55they said

01:09:56earlier

01:09:56somebody wrote

01:09:57that

01:09:58and you're

01:09:59sussing it out

01:10:00and you're

01:10:00feeling it

01:10:00that might be

01:10:01the whole thing

01:10:02for me

01:10:02optimism is

01:10:04embedded in the

01:10:04form to write

01:10:05at all

01:10:06is not to

01:10:07completely despair

01:10:07I never

01:10:08I never really

01:10:09believe in

01:10:09overtly despairing

01:10:12writing

01:10:13because

01:10:14to write

01:10:15is an act

01:10:16of optimism

01:10:17to actually

01:10:17engage at

01:10:18any level

01:10:18it's embedded

01:10:19in the structure

01:10:20no matter

01:10:20what else

01:10:21happens

01:10:21thank you

01:10:22George

01:10:22thank you

01:10:23Zadie

01:10:23thank you

01:10:24thank you

01:10:36thank you

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