Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak Talk with Rachel Syme

The New Yorker

On October 24, 2025, the comedian-actors Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak took the stage for a discussion with the New Yorker staff writer Rachel Syme, as part of the 26th annual New Yorker Festival.

Transcript

00:00:00I saw the most devastating thing I've ever seen.

00:00:05Oh no.

00:00:06You know the straps and dresses where you hang the hanger on?

00:00:09No, okay.

00:00:10No, no, no.

00:00:11It's worse than you thought.

00:00:12It's worse than you think.

00:00:13They're wearing it like that.

00:00:14Okay, listen.

00:00:15No.

00:00:16She's wearing it.

00:00:17You know what I mean, right?

00:00:18Got confused and wrapped around.

00:00:19Wait, does mine have that?

00:00:20No, no, no, no.

00:00:21Yours has that.

00:00:22That's what I just noticed.

00:00:23The little...

00:00:24I was at a wedding.

00:00:25They're hanging out?

00:00:26No!

00:00:27The brides.

00:00:28The brides?

00:00:29The wedding.

00:00:30First dance.

00:00:31Visible.

00:00:32With straps.

00:00:33Straps are visible.

00:00:34No one on the team.

00:00:35Tucked.

00:00:36Imagine this.

00:00:37You're planning your wedding for a year.

00:00:38Everything.

00:00:39Budgets.

00:00:40And all your photos.

00:00:41Strings out.

00:00:42That's hard.

00:00:43What are you going to do?

00:00:44Photoshop them out?

00:00:45Or, you know, write one more show about it.

00:00:47I mean, you know, like, take the bait.

00:00:49You get off Instagram.

00:00:50Oh.

00:00:51When I'm traveling especially.

00:00:52Neck broken, looking down.

00:00:54Yeah.

00:00:55Clocking 23 hours.

00:00:56I'm just like, I'm in there and I'm in there hard.

00:00:58I lost hours.

00:00:59Oh.

00:01:00One woman with 24,000 followers.

00:01:02Me in a dark room.

00:01:03Just firehosed to the skull.

00:01:05Taking in her.

00:01:06Talking about this product.

00:01:07I was in a dark room.

00:01:08Firehosed.

00:01:09Straight through the third eye.

00:01:12It's so sad.

00:01:14My third eye has been taken.

00:01:15It has been taken.

00:01:17It's not shut.

00:01:18Like, you know, like, oh, your third eye's closed.

00:01:20It's not been shut.

00:01:21It's been pinned open like clockwork orange.

00:01:24Yeah.

00:01:25I know.

00:01:26Visible etheric cord.

00:01:27Well, Jacqueline, it's worse than being taken.

00:01:29We've given it.

00:01:30And that's actually the ultimate.

00:01:31That's the final humiliation.

00:01:32That's the final degradation.

00:01:33Yeah.

00:01:34Yeah.

00:01:35Yeah.

00:01:36Yeah.

00:01:37Here's the thought process.

00:01:38God, writing things down could be huge, right?

00:01:39Like, to remember later in the conversation.

00:01:41Mm-hmm.

00:01:42And then I went to, like, the pain of if I lived in a pre.

00:01:45Like, where it could only do blood on the cave wall.

00:01:47The chaos I would be living in.

00:01:49You're on period blood.

00:01:50Once a month, you get to write a couple things down.

00:01:52You have to save it all month.

00:01:53Yes.

00:01:54What was it?

00:01:55That's beautiful, right?

00:01:57Particularly because...

00:01:58Wait, this is huge.

00:01:59Maybe that is...

00:02:00What we're meant to do.

00:02:01The true writing.

00:02:02The blood on the walls.

00:02:03It really does make you wonder.

00:02:05I spent the day...

00:02:06Oh, God.

00:02:07Oh, God.

00:02:08What?

00:02:09Wait, why?

00:02:10Okay, why?

00:02:11You spent the day what?

00:02:12What lie?

00:02:13I love when you cry.

00:02:14When you cry on air, I go, Peabody.

00:02:15I see the dollar signs.

00:02:16I see the New Yorker Festival.

00:02:17No, I just...

00:02:18No, I love it.

00:02:19No, I love it.

00:02:20I'm laughing at like...

00:02:21Because this is the moments where you have to...

00:02:23This is where you learn how to act.

00:02:25It's just incredible.

00:02:26I'm sure...

00:02:28It's just like...

00:02:29It's so sweet.

00:02:30So like...

00:02:31It's like...

00:02:35I'm crying.

00:02:36I don't know why I'm crying.

00:02:37It's just so like...

00:02:39No one would have the courage to admit such a thing.

00:02:42That you saw it.

00:02:43No, no, no.

00:02:44That's why I am like...

00:02:45That's why I am disturbing of a Peabody.

00:02:48By the way...

00:02:49You can go there knowing.

00:02:50Yeah.

00:02:51Why?

00:02:52By the way, this episode just became a $20 paywall.

00:02:55.

00:02:56Woo!

00:03:01Woo!

00:03:02Woo!

00:03:13Hello.

00:03:14Oh my God, coming out to the clips was marvelous.

00:03:18I love the clips.

00:03:19I like that a lot.

00:03:20Hello.

00:03:21Hello New York!

00:03:22Hello New York!

00:03:23One of Berlant's first big gigs right here in this theater, am I right?

00:03:29We're going to get into the real show, but I'll just go personal.

00:03:33First time I ever did a real stand-up show was here.

00:03:37Meaning, I was opening for Reggie Watts, I had a 20-minute set.

00:03:41I had never done 20 minutes before, and around a minute, 12, I go, oh, fuck.

00:03:46And it's surreal to be here because I haven't been on stage since.

00:03:49Here I go.

00:03:50But in my memory, this was like 15,000 seats.

00:03:55It is.

00:03:55It's like it was so...

00:03:56It is 15.

00:03:57It's 14 to 15.

00:03:58It is big, bud.

00:03:59And I used to live directly across the street in an apartment building that has been torn down.

00:04:03Wow.

00:04:04Follow the money, folks.

00:04:05Yeah.

00:04:05New York.

00:04:07You know, you're in New York.

00:04:08Wait, I'm already breaking in before Rachel will have to speak.

00:04:12I have to do the preamble.

00:04:14All right, all right, we'll let it, we'll let it.

00:04:16I was already on fire.

00:04:16I have to welcome everyone formally tonight.

00:04:19I'm Rachel Simon, staff writer at The New Yorker.

00:04:22Hello.

00:04:23And on behalf of the magazine, I'm delighted to welcome you all to the 26th annual New Yorker

00:04:29Festival.

00:04:30Thank you for being here with us this evening.

00:04:32So today with me on stage, I'm sure you already know this, are two of the sharpest voices in

00:04:37comedy today.

00:04:38The dynamic duo of Kate Berlant and Jacqueline Novak.

00:04:47Before we begin, a quick reminder to silence your cell phones and refrain from flash photography,

00:04:52though.

00:04:52And no talking.

00:04:55And if you're inclined to post on social media, which we hope you do, the hashtag is hashtag

00:05:00New Yorker Fest.

00:05:02And take a few and choose the best, okay?

00:05:05You're not getting a repost if I don't like how I look.

00:05:08I've seen some egregious tags where I go, that's cruel to tag me.

00:05:15You have to untag.

00:05:16It's the humiliation.

00:05:19So we have about 75 minutes together, including time at the end for a few questions from the

00:05:23audience.

00:05:24And I just want to let you know you can submit your questions at any time during the event.

00:05:28So anytime a question strikes you, you can text Festival to the number on the screen behind

00:05:34me.

00:05:35There it is.

00:05:37And we'll get to as many as we have time for.

00:05:39First five rows, I'd say.

00:05:41Don't be texting.

00:05:43We can see you and we're not happy.

00:05:45This event would not be possible without the support of New Yorker subscribers.

00:05:50And for those of you who don't yet subscribe to the magazine, consider signing up today

00:05:54at newyorker.com.

00:05:55So without further ado, I want to welcome our guests and give you a little introduction to

00:05:59them for those who do not know.

00:06:02Who doesn't know?

00:06:03Show of hands.

00:06:04Who doesn't know?

00:06:04Who doesn't?

00:06:05Let's hear from who doesn't know.

00:06:07I do like the idea of somebody kind of wondering, huh?

00:06:10And then coming.

00:06:11I like that.

00:06:12I still want to read your biographies because they're so impressive.

00:06:15Absolutely.

00:06:17And I want to say, Rachel and I talked about this before.

00:06:19Rachel is desperate to be interrupted.

00:06:21Okay.

00:06:21She wants us to interrupt.

00:06:23She wants us to fly.

00:06:24This is not an abuse of the moderator.

00:06:25I wanted it to be sort of free form.

00:06:27You know, like I've been always desperate to be on an episode of Berlin and Nobeck in

00:06:32my mind.

00:06:33You can call it Pug.

00:06:33I'm always in a dialogue.

00:06:34You can call it Pug tonight.

00:06:35All right.

00:06:36Yeah.

00:06:37Pug.

00:06:39So I'm excited just to be living my fantasy.

00:06:43So here we go.

00:06:43Kate Berland is a comedian, an actress, and a writer.

00:06:48Her one-woman play, Kate, directed by Bo Burnham, received acclaim in four sold-out

00:06:55runs.

00:06:56She has released two comedy specials, Cinnamon in the Wind, and with John Early, Would It

00:07:00Kill You to Laugh, which was nominated for a Critics' Choice Award and a Primetime Emmy

00:07:05Award.

00:07:08It's not about awards.

00:07:11Berland's acting credits include the films Dream Scenario, Don't Worry Darling, Once Upon

00:07:15a Time in Hollywood, and Sorry to Bother You.

00:07:17And on television, she can be seen in A League of Their Own, Search Party, The Other Two,

00:07:22and The Characters, among Others.

00:07:25No, it's funny.

00:07:27It's funny at this moment going, I didn't review.

00:07:30I didn't review a bio.

00:07:32No bio was sent to me.

00:07:33What's coming?

00:07:35It's coming.

00:07:36But here we go.

00:07:37I didn't write this.

00:07:38We're just, we're ringing it.

00:07:39I'll correct anything that's inaccurate.

00:07:41Live.

00:07:41Fact-checking.

00:07:42Fact-checking is very valuable in our magazine.

00:07:44So here we go.

00:07:45Jacqueline Novak is an actress, a comedian, and a podcaster.

00:07:50Did mine say actress?

00:07:52Well, keep going, keep going.

00:07:53You said actress.

00:07:54You said actress, based in Los Angeles.

00:07:55Points on the board.

00:07:56Points on the board.

00:07:57The roles.

00:07:58Her hit solo show, Get On Your Knees, debuted in 2018 and earned a Drama Desk nomination for

00:08:08Outstanding Solo Performance in 2020.

00:08:10The show's off-Broadway run was named a Critics' Pick by the New York Times and Novak's Netflix

00:08:14special, For Get On Your Knees, directed by Natasha Lyonne, was nominated for an Emmy

00:08:18award.

00:08:24Novak also appeared in Koganada's feature film, A Big, Bold, Beautiful Journey.

00:08:29Mostly cut.

00:08:30I'm laughing into the mic.

00:08:31We'll talk about it.

00:08:32Mostly cut, but the experience artistically was huge.

00:08:35And her memoir, How to Weep in Public, was published in 2016.

00:08:40Okay.

00:08:40So, I just want to start today by talking about that last clip where you literally manifested

00:08:48this moment.

00:08:49You said, I see a Peabody.

00:08:50I see the New Yorker Fest.

00:08:51And I'm just wondering if you can talk about that manifestation process.

00:08:56I have always been a channeler.

00:08:57And so, that was a direct channel.

00:09:00But, yeah, I mean, I'll open it up to a wider tale, which is kind of the origins of Pug,

00:09:05which is that we were, I'm freezing.

00:09:09You feel that, right?

00:09:09No.

00:09:10Yeah.

00:09:11I was trying to recall the tale.

00:09:13But when we were starting to do the show, the very first time we ever recorded an episode

00:09:19was, again, this was deep in COVID, by the way.

00:09:21We figured, we were like, we started right at the beginning of lockdown.

00:09:25And we did, what was it, two hours?

00:09:27It was closed at 16 at that time.

00:09:28Yeah, yeah, I know, I know.

00:09:32And, no, but we recorded it for, what, two hours, hour and a half?

00:09:36Minimum.

00:09:37Minimum.

00:09:37Our best.

00:09:38By the way, it was explosive.

00:09:40We were so locked in.

00:09:42It was beautiful.

00:09:43And then there were two, I'll say it, men.

00:09:45Men.

00:09:45Straight men.

00:09:46Who are welcome at the show.

00:09:48Okay, anyway, the point is, two guys, two fellas were listening in.

00:09:51They were, this was all remotely, right?

00:09:53So, they were watching us on their screens.

00:09:56And then we, after two hours.

00:09:57Camera off.

00:09:58Their camera off.

00:09:59We turn on the camera, expecting them to be like, you know, uproarie going, we got

00:10:03a hit, honey, I see dollar bills.

00:10:04And instead, I'm not kidding.

00:10:06So, we're, we're infused with so much delight.

00:10:09I literally, I go, I go, and I've, I've listened back to the recording.

00:10:12Yeah.

00:10:13I've listened back every, every once in a while, right?

00:10:14I go there, and I go, listen, and it's them, and I'm going, okay, let's let the boys

00:10:19back on.

00:10:19No, we go, okay, well.

00:10:21That, yeah, sure, that was raw, but that was, um, it was raw, but waiting for.

00:10:25We got a hit.

00:10:26They were the producers.

00:10:26We turn on, I'll never forget it, because one of them was in a swivel chair like this.

00:10:30We turn on, and he swiveled around, he goes, they were despondent.

00:10:39Yeah.

00:10:39And I'll, and one of them goes, so, that much pausing.

00:10:44So, is this kind of a fly on the wall?

00:10:50Would you be interested in doing characters?

00:10:52Oh, no, no, no.

00:10:53No, no, no.

00:10:54Get ready.

00:10:54Imagine, imagine two and a half hours.

00:10:56Draco starts crying.

00:10:57Yeah.

00:10:57I start defending what Berlant and I stand for, and yeah, okay, and if you listen, if

00:11:03you listen back, as I have, as I mentioned, I can hear it, I don't cry, I don't break for

00:11:07them.

00:11:08Okay.

00:11:08Oh, you cry off air with me.

00:11:10Yeah, off air with you, but I can hear in me that I am forcing them back down the throat,

00:11:14right?

00:11:15And I'm going, you gotta trust us, right?

00:11:17Yeah.

00:11:18But they go, we just wanna make sure we're all making the same show here.

00:11:23We're not making shit together.

00:11:26Okay.

00:11:27No, but then I started to defend, and I go, you know, I think this really, I don't know

00:11:31what happened, but the sort of crescendo of my argument defending the show, I go, you

00:11:35understand, if this isn't written up in the New Yorker, it's a failure.

00:11:39I go, that's our fan base.

00:11:41And that.

00:11:41And then cut to six months later.

00:11:44In the New Yorker.

00:11:45In the New Yorker.

00:11:46Yeah.

00:11:47Yeah.

00:11:49It's important because we were shooting beyond what they thought we were doing a bad job

00:11:54at succeeding at.

00:11:55Do you see what I'm saying?

00:11:56So we go, yeah, we're not meeting this because we're here.

00:11:59No, and it was vibrating at a very unique frequency that I felt like only certain people

00:12:05could hear, and I totally heard it.

00:12:06They're like, serious XFM listeners aren't gonna get this, or whatever.

00:12:10Yeah.

00:12:10Although we do have, like, we do have a long haul, a long haul trucker, okay?

00:12:16Who loves poog.

00:12:16Who's a huge poog fan?

00:12:18Oh, yeah.

00:12:18Yes.

00:12:19He writes in every, every once in a while, it's not about him, because of course it's not,

00:12:22right?

00:12:23No.

00:12:23It's not every three months, I'm the trucker, right?

00:12:25It's twice he's emailed over the years, but he goes, I'll listen to you girls talk about

00:12:29anything.

00:12:33They're out there.

00:12:34The poog bros, et cetera.

00:12:37They're out there.

00:12:38We love the fellas.

00:12:38Well, I want to talk about the concept of having a podcast in all of its...

00:12:44Indeed, indeed.

00:12:45Do you think of it as a podcast?

00:12:47Is there another word you would prefer it be called, given that that is such a laden term?

00:12:52Such a dirty word in this town, isn't it?

00:12:56I think there's a, here's what I think it is, right?

00:12:59I think we engage, we engage, we engage with the archetype of the podcast, okay?

00:13:05Okay, we go, we go, if there's not a distance, right, between what you fundamentally do and

00:13:10the medium that you're engaging with, right?

00:13:12If there's not a little gap there and a conversation between the two...

00:13:15Then we're in trouble.

00:13:16What do you even do it?

00:13:16Yeah.

00:13:17Hello, welcome to my act.

00:13:18I'm like, I'm doing comedy.

00:13:19Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:13:20I get it.

00:13:21Yeah, you can't just...

00:13:21So I think we're like, yeah, to us, I think there's a fundamental deep layer joke that

00:13:27we're doing a podcast at all.

00:13:29And we started it too late.

00:13:30The thing of, everyone's got a podcast.

00:13:32That was like 2017.

00:13:33We started 2019.

00:13:352020.

00:13:36So it was already such a crowded space, cut that, that by the time we started, it was

00:13:45like the joke of starting a podcast and how ridiculous that was.

00:13:49Ooh, I got louder.

00:13:49Thanks, Paul made up the name.

00:13:52But I think for us, because I've, of course, so many times, you know, crossed my eyes.

00:13:59I have a podcast.

00:14:00Don't worry.

00:14:00It's not a podcast, really, or whatever.

00:14:02No, not what you think it is.

00:14:04It's a conversation.

00:14:05We were clinging to an idea of the art of conversation.

00:14:09I said that once to you.

00:14:10You fixated on it, right?

00:14:11The art of conversation.

00:14:12You're like, that's it.

00:14:13That's it.

00:14:13Right?

00:14:14We had these sort of like touch points, like a touchstone phrase that keeps us in line.

00:14:19No, it's art.

00:14:19It's art.

00:14:20And it's not.

00:14:22It's imperfect.

00:14:25It's imperfection.

00:14:26If we tried to make it perfect, it would be bad and not the show.

00:14:29The show is, every few episodes, you're going to go, damn, that was a dud.

00:14:33Okay?

00:14:33That's, that's what, that's why it's art.

00:14:36The courage.

00:14:36If it were just perfect entertainment.

00:14:38Hello, my darling.

00:14:39Hello.

00:14:39Then, then you, then you start going, oh, they're talking, they're talking down to me.

00:14:44They think I'm a child who needs a perfect show every time.

00:14:46No.

00:14:46Every single time the show, you go, what?

00:14:49That's, that's the texture of what, of what the show provides.

00:14:53And that's why it's art.

00:14:54The level of sophistication, okay, is such that anytime you're doubting the show, you're

00:14:59wrong.

00:15:01Okay?

00:15:02The problem's you, right?

00:15:04It's a really good system because it works on a thousand layers, except, except the ones

00:15:08that we don't like, right?

00:15:10But I, I do, I do believe in that.

00:15:12Yeah.

00:15:13I mean, I want to know how.

00:15:16Having this project together interacts with the work you each do individually as performers

00:15:24and comedians, because, you know, you're both brilliant writers.

00:15:28You write material.

00:15:30I don't want to say you write jokes because.

00:15:32No, no, say it.

00:15:33You often, you write, I can say you write jokes.

00:15:35You, you personally self-identify as writing notions, Jacqueline, right?

00:15:39I mean, they're actually jokes, but you know, part of the art is calling them notions.

00:15:43Right.

00:15:44And they go, I don't know.

00:15:45I just know the precision of language, very important to you.

00:15:48So, but I think in this case, that's very written.

00:15:52You take it on the road.

00:15:53You practice.

00:15:54You, you hone this material.

00:15:56You know, you're working on a special or a future, whatever it's going to be.

00:15:59This is much more unformed, but in many ways, I wanted to, I want to know how it, how it informs

00:16:04the work that you each do individually, having this partnership.

00:16:07No connection.

00:16:08Next question.

00:16:10Great.

00:16:11No, I think.

00:16:11It literally is hysterically.

00:16:13We constantly, yeah.

00:16:14It's, no, it is.

00:16:15The answer is like, none.

00:16:17No, no, no, no.

00:16:18It's Pook is siloed.

00:16:19Pook is, to me, you know, there I go again.

00:16:22Okay.

00:16:23What?

00:16:24Silo?

00:16:24Currently, legally speaking, we are Berlant and Novak currently at the moment.

00:16:28Legal teams are working on it.

00:16:29We're the legal team.

00:16:30Yeah, we're working on it.

00:16:31Hey, hey, hey.

00:16:32Berlant and Novak law is at work right now.

00:16:34I think, I think the podcast is, there is no saving, there's no cutting a little portion

00:16:39off to feed the podcast.

00:16:41We're not like, save a little for the pod, right?

00:16:43I think the pod cast is a true something out of nothing.

00:16:51We constantly are texting each other going, thank God for the, thank God for Pook.

00:16:54Thank God for Pook.

00:16:55Because also, we do, so like, we turn on, what you're hearing when you listen to the

00:16:59show is a hardly edited conversation, I think quite clearly.

00:17:03And so, the freedom of, and I've never listened to an episode.

00:17:08I'm not crazy.

00:17:09And so, no, hey, hey, hey.

00:17:10I have, and I am crazy.

00:17:12No, I love it.

00:17:13No, I'm pretty.

00:17:14Every time I tune in, I go, God, we're good.

00:17:16No, but the point is, I think the practice, if I can use that word, of just turning on the

00:17:21microphone every week, we record this show, that helps, that, it's not writing, but it

00:17:27is.

00:17:28Do you know what I mean?

00:17:29It's like this kind of place that we put ideas, or, and we, and even though, we don't

00:17:34talk on the show about a certain idea, and then it pops up in the act.

00:17:38It's not really like that.

00:17:39Oh, God.

00:17:39By the way, that would be fine.

00:17:41That's pretty good.

00:17:41This is a little, yeah, there's a little, no, it could.

00:17:44Mind if I use this in my act?

00:17:45It could, right?

00:17:46Oh, it could.

00:17:47But it's not a, it's not a, ha, ha, oh, yeah, in the pool, I kind of discovered something.

00:17:51Let me, ha, right, and she, oh, let me check with Kate.

00:17:55Is that mine?

00:17:56You know what I mean?

00:17:56Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:17:57No, it's.

00:17:57It's a fundamental, different experiment.

00:18:00If we did morning pages, which, and God bless, and I have, and we've all been there, okay?

00:18:06Nine years ago, we've all.

00:18:07It's our morning pages, but it's once a week, and it does allow for a certain lubrication

00:18:13of the, yeah.

00:18:16Um.

00:18:21But it's connected, of course, and like your friends, you know, we, we, and we're, I mean,

00:18:26I'll say I'm constantly inspired by Jacqueline.

00:18:27And she's so funny and smart, and I'm always, like.

00:18:30Imagine dead silence for me.

00:18:33Thank you, Kate.

00:18:34Next question.

00:18:35But it does, I think it makes us think in a certain way.

00:18:40I think.

00:18:41Yeah.

00:18:42Actually, I'm not sure yet, but I knew I had something coming.

00:18:44I know I was about to think something.

00:18:46I'll go.

00:18:46Go for it, yeah.

00:18:47Um, I mean, the original idea of the show, though I know it was a loose self-assignment,

00:18:55was about wellness, right?

00:18:56A loaded term, a loaded term, as loaded as the river was.

00:19:01Sorry, go on.

00:19:01And, um, I think, uh, when I wrote about the piece, I think I had tried to figure out what

00:19:09wellness was.

00:19:11And, um, I'm just going to read a little bit from my piece, because I feel like this will

00:19:17help us sort of understand, as a group, all the different things that encompass wellness.

00:19:21Juice cleansing, transcendental meditation, snail serum application, buying a Peloton,

00:19:26napping, switching to oat milk, switching to charcoal water, Kegel exercises, sit baths,

00:19:30citrus diets, maintaining ketosis, HIIT workouts, haloperapy, aromatherapy, talk therapy, past

00:19:36life regression therapy, micro dosing LSD, mega dosing CBD, intuitive fasting, avoiding

00:19:42blue light, seeking red light, reflexology, cathartic breathing techniques, the Alexander

00:19:46technique, sensory deprivation, forest bathing, and gargling with salt.

00:19:48So, those are some things.

00:19:52I'm lit up from that.

00:19:53I know, the 12th day of Christmas.

00:19:55Yeah.

00:19:55Exactly.

00:19:56But, I wanted to know why wellness was the prompt, and where that, why that felt generative.

00:20:04We got this, sweetie, we got this.

00:20:05We know.

00:20:05We're going to land this plane.

00:20:06We're naked.

00:20:07We're naked.

00:20:07Here comes a really cogent answer, and it's very clear.

00:20:10No, but we, so the origins-

00:20:12Where were we?

00:20:12The origins of Poog really are poetically perfect for Poog.

00:20:16Jacqueline and I, before COVID, we were going a lot to this Korean spa in Los Angeles where

00:20:22you're sitting in the different, the different waters, there's the thermal water, and there's

00:20:26the mugwort tea, like, soaking water, and there's the ice plunge and all of that, and

00:20:31we were going there.

00:20:32We'd spend hours there, and we were just talking about our careers and secrets.

00:20:34That's a couple of girls and showbiz.

00:20:36Just a couple of girls.

00:20:36Okay.

00:20:37Right?

00:20:37Oh, yeah.

00:20:38Talking about showbiz, talking about things that you'll never hear.

00:20:40True secrets.

00:20:41That was a mockery old comedy festival.

00:20:42Yeah.

00:20:43Talking about all that, and then, quite literally, we're, like, sitting there,

00:20:46naked, and it's like, we should talk about this on a show.

00:20:49You know, it was like, oh, we, this could be a podcast.

00:20:52I actually remember the moment where you surprised me.

00:20:55So, the reason I'm saying this, we're talking about showbiz, haha, a couple of girls relaxing

00:20:58from, you know, the grind, right?

00:21:00Where I was like, well, the thing is, I can't tell if the red light in this red light room

00:21:04is the near-infrared plus the LED red, right?

00:21:09Or if this is just, you know, just straight-up LED in the, you know, if this is not penetrating.

00:21:14Chicks at the farm, you mean just heat.

00:21:16Yeah, just, it was unclear, right?

00:21:18It's like a Halloween light bulb.

00:21:19Red-infrared, we're getting somewhere, around the 880, you know, okay?

00:21:23She knew stuff I didn't understand.

00:21:24I know, and then I forget, and then I know again, et cetera, right?

00:21:27But Kate knew what I was talking about, and then we locked, I feel there was a locking

00:21:32in of, oh, I'm Not Just Here was another joker from Hollywood, okay?

00:21:35I was looking for a spa day.

00:21:37It was like, it locked, right?

00:21:39And it was the feeling of, we've both researched certain things, and gone deep, and we're both,

00:21:45you know, at each other's throats, screaming about our humiliation at not having done a

00:21:51full past life regression course load.

00:21:54Of course, yeah.

00:21:55You know, like, it was like, and so I do think it was sort of like, they're out there, we're

00:22:00not alone.

00:22:01And really importantly, and this is kind of speaks to, like, the guys, like, being like, so,

00:22:08like, at one point, they're like, like, Kate, like, you kind of slipped into this voice,

00:22:12and it seemed like you were doing a character of, like, uh, you know, wacky, and those characters

00:22:17are really weird, you know, and Kate was like, it's like, it was really important to us from

00:22:22the start.

00:22:22You can't satirize wellness culture, right?

00:22:24Talk about gilding the lily.

00:22:26You know, it's over.

00:22:27We know why it's funny.

00:22:28We know why it's ridiculous.

00:22:29People that are obsessed with wellness culture, it would be, I mean, can you imagine anything

00:22:33more humiliating than go, these people think that if you, I mean, it's like,

00:22:37people, it's like, oh, you know, it's so tiresome, it's so exhausting.

00:22:42What's the latest?

00:22:43Okay, people are, oh, they think a stone can heal them.

00:22:48They're praying to a guy in the sky with a beard.

00:22:51Yeah, yeah, yeah.

00:22:53I'm not trying to, like, that sounds like I'm doing Carlin.

00:22:55And okay, anyway, the point is, but I'm just saying, but it's like, it's like people laughing

00:22:59at people believing in God or something.

00:23:00It's like, yeah, we're utterly bored, we're utterly bored.

00:23:04And every damn executive we talk to, okay, this is where I go, the bitch, thank God,

00:23:10okay?

00:23:11Because she'll go for it, and she'll go, like, one executive or something said something

00:23:15like, well, there's so many characters in the wellness world to satirize.

00:23:19This is a celebrity.

00:23:20We're not going to say the name.

00:23:21This is a celebrity.

00:23:21Well, I said executive to cover.

00:23:23It's an executive.

00:23:24Okay, but they're like, there's so many characters in the wellness world right for the satirization.

00:23:29And I think we're thinking soured to the satirization.

00:23:32It's been satirized forever, right?

00:23:34Kate goes, we actually think the least interesting thing would be to satirize the wellness community.

00:23:40And I was like, I was like, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay?

00:23:45And we continue, by the way, this is, you know, journalistically, I think people, like,

00:23:49read an article, and then they, and then they write an article, right?

00:23:53Not you, okay?

00:23:54Others, right?

00:23:56Not a real journalist.

00:23:57But they do this thing.

00:23:58They do, like, they just, they go, surely it's parodying the wellness world.

00:24:02And then they write it in articles, and it's like, you never listen to a single episode.

00:24:05They've never, it's like, we talk about hotels half the time.

00:24:08You know, it's like, they don't.

00:24:10Yeah.

00:24:11So, but the way in.

00:24:14Yeah.

00:24:14The way in, you know, the show, Poog, Goop backwards, if you need me to really spell it out for you.

00:24:19And that is where it starts.

00:24:21And we love where we support Goop.

00:24:23We've gotten packages from Goop.

00:24:24This is on the anti-Goop manifesto.

00:24:27No, but I think, I think when I really, speaking of not wanting to satirize, I think something

00:24:31that I found, like, when I first was like, oh, I think I have a sense of what they're

00:24:35up to is when you were on Seth Meyers, and he was trying to push you to talk about crystals

00:24:38as if they were a joke.

00:24:40And you were.

00:24:40I go, we were on Seth Meyers?

00:24:42Okay, yeah.

00:24:43Yeah.

00:24:43And it was like, no, they're not a joke, because that would be, like, I was trying

00:24:50to, you know, there was something about the idea of rejecting the easy, you know, interpretation

00:24:58of what that culture is.

00:25:01And also, but then again, it's like, you're beholden to it.

00:25:04I mean, what I really like about the, about your conversations, and maybe we can talk about

00:25:07this a little bit, is that push-pull quality.

00:25:09It's like, I'm in it.

00:25:11I'm, I'm bought in at the same time, I'm too smart to be bought in, that, that, like,

00:25:16sense of, I mean, it often sometimes, like, literally, the, the contradictions move you

00:25:21to tears, you know, the sense of, like.

00:25:24If something's going to move one to tears in this life, let it be the paradox.

00:25:30Yeah, or the, the inability to express.

00:25:34Oh, no, but, no, no, go on, please.

00:25:38I, I, I know I made a joke, but the inability to express, here we go.

00:25:41Yeah, just that sense of, like, I'm not able to talk about my interest in these things without

00:25:45caveating my interest in these things, without caveating the caveat, and then it becomes

00:25:49this, like, giant.

00:25:50Yeah, the humiliation, here I go again, about the glucose, right?

00:25:53And I go, oh, God, you know, like, I'm talking publicly about this, right?

00:25:58The, the humiliation of, you know, you know, Kate, Kate and I spiritually, a martini, a

00:26:04burger, oh, God, I'm plant-based, what do I do, you know, like, it's like, trying to

00:26:09wear the hat of, of the martini and the burger, right?

00:26:12I'm a rare.

00:26:12Obviously, I talked about on the podcast when we were in Paris and what happened.

00:26:16I'll just say it quickly for, for these folks who might be new.

00:26:18Oh, yeah, you did cry, okay, so, but we were at, we're, we're in Paris, we have, we have,

00:26:23by the way, look at us, jet-setting women, happen to have a, have a crossover

00:26:26one night in Paris, imagine the poetry of that, but we went out to dinner and Jacqueline

00:26:31has been as, and I'm so proud of you, doll, plant-based now for a couple years, and we

00:26:37were at this very classic French, I don't speak French, I want to apologize, and the

00:26:44waiter, and Jacqueline speaks some French and you're being very sweet with the waiter and

00:26:47trying to explain to him, like, are there any vegan options, essentially, and he couldn't

00:26:50even comprehend, it was like, what?

00:26:52Yeah, plant-based, he couldn't figure it out, and then you, very sweet, you know,

00:26:56sweetly left to cry.

00:26:59I want to be clear, I didn't say French restaurant, are there any vegan options, right?

00:27:03It was more like, can I have this, da-da-da-da, and I was almost, like, resigned, like, you

00:27:08know, it was this, whatever, it was complex, is the point.

00:27:12But the point is, this woman comes back, she sits down, she clears the tears from her eyes,

00:27:17we call the waiter back over, she goes, what's your favorite thing on the menu?

00:27:22And he kind of is like, huh?

00:27:24And to sort of, I think, taunt her, he goes, well, the pig's feet, of course, and she goes,

00:27:29well, then I'll have that.

00:27:32He walks away, and I'm pleading with her, I go, get a steak, you know, it's fine, you

00:27:36don't need to, you know, go get something that you'll eat.

00:27:39Pig's feet land.

00:27:40And this woman proceeds to eat every single last bite on that plate, and she's not going,

00:27:49she's just, and not making a thing of it, I've, I've, my whole life is now about this

00:27:54moment, I've completely, and she's completely, we're just carrying on, and I go, Jacqueline,

00:27:57oh my God, and she ate it all, and she didn't do a big, and she didn't do it, like, she just

00:28:01was like, yeah, I couldn't believe it.

00:28:03I felt like, right, if I'm doing this one thing, it's like, well, I'm here, I'm eating

00:28:06for culture, I'm eating, I want to have this man's thing.

00:28:09And then I started doing this whole thing, when in Paris, not a vegan.

00:28:13He loved it, he loved it, next thing you know, he loved it, next thing you know, yeah, he's

00:28:20giving us menus to take home as gifts, okay, and yeah, it's, now it's, it's magnetized onto

00:28:25my fridge, but the point is, that's the show.

00:28:28Yeah, both of you have, you seem to both have an innate ability to, like, talk your way

00:28:36into free stuff, slash, like, extraordinary experiences.

00:28:40Like, what was happening today?

00:28:42You were telling me you were getting, you had, like, a tremendous...

00:28:44My mother's here, stand up, no, it's fine, but our, our, my mom and Jacqueline's mom and

00:28:50dad are meeting tonight for the first time.

00:28:51It's huge.

00:28:51It almost is a stand up, yeah, my parents with Helen.

00:28:54It's actually insane, did anyone clock them?

00:28:56Did anyone go, that's gotta be the parents?

00:28:58Yeah, yeah.

00:28:59Okay, someone clocked.

00:29:00It's incredibly sweet, but my mom is with me in New York, and so, you know, I'm taking

00:29:03her on the town, whining and dining her, and, you know, via Corotta, I go, good luck getting

00:29:07a table, watch me, okay?

00:29:09And so, but we walked by today, I don't even know how it happened, but, I mean, this is

00:29:14like 45 minutes, I'm trying to trunkey, okay?

00:29:15So, the point is that the line sort of was becoming impossible, and it's the thing of

00:29:21people, you know, people wandering in, marching to the front, can I have a table?

00:29:24There's a line snaking around, you know, and the, and this, the guy's like, it's first

00:29:28come, first serve, you'll have to wait in the line, and this woman in front of me, and

00:29:31I go, I've got this, and I, and I adopt this, this calm, I'm just calm.

00:29:37Not in a rush, I'm calm, I respect the establishment, I'm hungry, I'm not gonna let him show, I'm not

00:29:41gonna show that, okay?

00:29:42And then, this woman comes to the front, and she's talking to the really sweet maitre

00:29:47d', and she's like, are you French?

00:29:49And he goes, yeah, and she starts speaking French, where are you from?

00:29:52Paris, et cetera, and kind of, now can I have a table?

00:29:54And he goes, back of the line, you know, it was like very, and, yeah, I don't know what

00:29:58happened, but I basically just, I swear to God, it was through sheer attitude, next thing

00:30:02I know, we're seated out front, most beautiful table, facing out, and I go, I go, thank you

00:30:06so much, I'm here with my mother, it means a lot, you know, I did a whole, and then

00:30:09when we left, I go, if I, what do you do with this moment?

00:30:12You take a 20, you go, thanks so much for the table.

00:30:14No.

00:30:15Right?

00:30:17Anyone?

00:30:17You mean how much?

00:30:18You mean how much?

00:30:19It's a not a rhetorical question, I mean, what are you doing?

00:30:22You had cash on hand?

00:30:24No, I had no cash.

00:30:25Wait.

00:30:26I have to carry cash.

00:30:27Oh, so, he had a 20, it was just pure fantasy.

00:30:29No, no, this is my imagination.

00:30:30Yeah.

00:30:31Well, by the way, in the imagination, it's here's a hundred.

00:30:32I think zero or 100.

00:30:34No, no, zero or 100, yeah.

00:30:35Zero or 100, because zero is respectful.

00:30:37If I go back in and I go, thank you so much, shake the hand, he feels the bill, huh?

00:30:43And then I walk away, $100.

00:30:46But, I mean, that's not me.

00:30:48I mean, that's not possible.

00:30:48I don't have those funds.

00:30:49No, okay, yeah.

00:30:50Feeling the bill is like, it's Larry David, it's too, you know what I mean?

00:30:55Oh, yeah, that is from courage.

00:30:56It's too much, like, it's like the only option now is to be like, I'd like to give you a hundred

00:31:01buckaroos for obvious reasons, so here they are.

00:31:06You know what I mean?

00:31:07Like, I don't know, you can't, this is 80s, this is...

00:31:10Yeah, no, totally, of course, yeah, yeah.

00:31:11Well, I think this answers what we were talking about backstage, where you're trying to figure

00:31:14out what to do for the hotel guys.

00:31:15I've been up at night, what do I do for the hotel, for the front of, for the people at

00:31:20the desk?

00:31:20No, by the way, if you could see the texts where Kate reveals that she got a rate at a hotel,

00:31:24right, okay, that I was not privy to, and I go, oh, really?

00:31:30Like, you know what I mean?

00:31:31The subtle drama, the full, you know?

00:31:33Well, I put in so much work for this friendly rate.

00:31:36Yeah.

00:31:36Yeah, you put in a lot of work, and you're like, I'm like, so how are you doing that?

00:31:39Yeah, yeah.

00:31:40And you're like, oh, it's, it's crazy, it's, well, thank God, of course I would never pay

00:31:46for it, because it's ungodly.

00:31:49No, we'll talk about, this is a good ep, we're going to talk about this on the pod, but...

00:31:53Yeah, we'll get into it.

00:31:54But yeah, and if anyone has any suggestions on what to gift hotels, and of course, behind

00:31:59the desk, it's money, right?

00:32:01That's the nice thing to do, is to tip well.

00:32:03But isn't there something more special, something more personal?

00:32:05Is there something, right?

00:32:06Something for them to be buried with?

00:32:09I think unless you've got, yeah, unless you've got an actual artifact.

00:32:14What are my teeth?

00:32:15Yeah.

00:32:15Okay, yeah, yeah.

00:32:16Yours?

00:32:17Teeth or cash.

00:32:18Or a pharaoh's.

00:32:19Yeah, yeah.

00:32:20Right, or cash, you don't bury them in the forced spa experience that they never get

00:32:25around to, here comes the no longer...

00:32:27It would actually be strange, a beautiful handwritten note, no cash, fuck you, right?

00:32:31Like, that's weird, yeah.

00:32:32Right, I thought you'd just love the slant of my handwriting kind of thing.

00:32:36I think we'd, yeah, yeah, you'd be uplifted.

00:32:39No, but we do say, and it is important, we do say, you know, and originally the kind of

00:32:43mission was, and our naked desire to get free products, right?

00:32:47Right, yeah.

00:32:48Very much so.

00:32:49It's worked.

00:32:50We've, the products we've received, I mean, sometimes a package hit, I hear a package

00:32:54hit the doorstep, I go, fuck.

00:32:56Because there's so many, I mean, again, it's bragging, it's not appealing, okay?

00:33:00Bragging about the free goods.

00:33:02But I'm giving, you know, giving it to the cousins, I'm giving it, you know, we can give

00:33:04it away.

00:33:05It's always the cousins with her.

00:33:06Who's watching?

00:33:07Yeah.

00:33:07It's always the cousins.

00:33:09I give it to my cousins.

00:33:10But I feel like the new...

00:33:11How you patronize your cousins, you know?

00:33:13No, no.

00:33:13I don't want it.

00:33:14The mission state, there has been mission creep, because I think that dropped out of

00:33:17the mission statement for the new show, right?

00:33:20What?

00:33:20The naked desire to free products.

00:33:22The new show is suspended in space.

00:33:24Yeah.

00:33:24In an absence of definitions, so that, should we ever land home somehow?

00:33:30Right.

00:33:30It's this sort of orbiter looking for the planet again.

00:33:33Absence of branding.

00:33:33But one thing I like that you put in the intro of the new show was the ego, what is it?

00:33:40The ego loves to seek, but never to find.

00:33:41Loves to seek, but never to find, which is a line that you had said in Poog, but it now

00:33:45has become kind of a larger part of the mythology, given that it's at the start.

00:33:51And I wanted to know if you could unpack that a little bit.

00:33:52Well, I'd say that to...

00:33:53It's the fundamental.

00:33:54To try to answer your previous question.

00:33:58That is the central, that would be the thesis, right?

00:34:00The ego loves to seek and never to find.

00:34:02So obviously the person who's like, I'm going to do this and take this supplement and do

00:34:05this treatment and go on a retreat and...

00:34:08Yeah.

00:34:09You know, we're never, we're never healed.

00:34:11Obviously.

00:34:12And would we want to be?

00:34:13No.

00:34:14Where's the phone?

00:34:15I know.

00:34:15Can you imagine?

00:34:16Just imagine being healed.

00:34:20Literal hell.

00:34:21I mean, what is that?

00:34:21Literal hell.

00:34:22Yeah.

00:34:23The purity is no different than a pure form of pain, right?

00:34:27Yeah.

00:34:28An unfractured, you know.

00:34:29Just thoughtless flesh, supine, available, open.

00:34:32Go like, it's finally there.

00:34:35The posture's there.

00:34:36Like, what are you talking about?

00:34:38Right?

00:34:38So...

00:34:38We, I think...

00:34:39What's the...

00:34:40By the way, ooh, here we go.

00:34:41Watch this.

00:34:41Here we go.

00:34:42Watch her.

00:34:42What are we trying to do?

00:34:43Not become human?

00:34:44Oh, wait.

00:34:44That is what we're doing.

00:34:44AI, help.

00:34:45Oh, God.

00:34:45No.

00:34:46Stay unwell.

00:34:47Right.

00:34:47Stay human.

00:34:48Write this down.

00:34:49Right?

00:34:50Seriously.

00:34:50It's what's this guy?

00:34:51The wellness guy.

00:34:52I'm so healthy.

00:34:54I'm no longer human.

00:34:55It's like...

00:34:55Here's what it is.

00:34:56Here's what it is.

00:34:58When Kate and I, right, when we latch on to one of these figures, right, or one of these...

00:35:03Or we send each other a video.

00:35:05This lady says you got to, you know, wrap your hair around your ear until the lymph moves

00:35:10into the lower quadrant.

00:35:11Right?

00:35:12Whatever.

00:35:12Right?

00:35:12You go, you know, so that it can come back up again.

00:35:16Whatever.

00:35:17Right?

00:35:17But I think it's about...

00:35:19It's almost like setting a pulley, okay, all the way over there, right?

00:35:23Okay?

00:35:23It's not...

00:35:24We do not wish to arrive, right?

00:35:27At, you know, Huberman, right?

00:35:29We do not wish to be there.

00:35:32What?

00:35:32With Huberman?

00:35:33No, no.

00:35:33I mean...

00:35:34Yeah.

00:35:34We're open to being on the pod.

00:35:36Okay?

00:35:37Yeah.

00:35:37No, no.

00:35:37But whatever the thing is, right?

00:35:39It's like...

00:35:40It's like...

00:35:41We know we want to seek and never to find.

00:35:44That doesn't mean...

00:35:45You still have to seek.

00:35:46So you have to find false idols to worship.

00:35:50And you do.

00:35:50We all continually go, find the false idol.

00:35:52Maybe I will.

00:35:53And then you think, oh, that is the answer.

00:35:55Constantly, I'm like, well, obviously, I'm never going to be healed.

00:35:57I'm like, unless...

00:35:58I mean, it's constant.

00:35:58You know.

00:35:59Right.

00:36:00So the one thing I think that we do, you know, the one thing I'm proud of us for doing,

00:36:06okay, is going like, we know exactly what...

00:36:10Like, what the fuck?

00:36:10Sorry, New Yorker.

00:36:11Okay?

00:36:12I did when I said fuck.

00:36:13I saw it in the New Yorker typeface.

00:36:16So I just want to say, that was a very specific New Yorker...

00:36:20My mom...

00:36:21By the way, Jacqueline, I didn't even tell you this.

00:36:23Two weeks ago, my mom goes, you say fuck too much.

00:36:28She's right there.

00:36:29I'm looking at her.

00:36:30Interesting.

00:36:31Interesting.

00:36:31That was the word she thinks you say too much on the pod.

00:36:33What do you think I say too much?

00:36:34No.

00:36:35I don't think any...

00:36:36What do you think you're talking to?

00:36:38Sorry, I'm sorry, I'm sorry.

00:36:38Okay.

00:36:39No, no, no.

00:36:39I just mean there are darker, you know, whatever.

00:36:42You know, F my C?

00:36:44Oh, yeah.

00:36:45She doesn't listen to all the episodes.

00:36:46Okay.

00:36:47Okay.

00:36:48Point being, what were we talking about?

00:36:50We really were somewhere.

00:36:51We were somewhere.

00:36:52I felt it.

00:36:52We were somewhere, by the way, amazing.

00:36:54I know.

00:36:54Yeah.

00:36:55Don't move.

00:36:55I know you're tempted to move on, but we were somewhere.

00:36:59You guys got it.

00:37:01No, no, no.

00:37:01Bring us back.

00:37:02All right, fine.

00:37:02No, but I think that actually the search for the somewhere is what you were talking about.

00:37:06You were saying Huberman.

00:37:07You were out in the sky.

00:37:08Huberman, go back.

00:37:08Go back.

00:37:09Yep.

00:37:09Where were you?

00:37:10To pull, to tether.

00:37:10You need, yeah, you need, yeah, you need that at which you are to, you cannot cut the cord

00:37:17to the thing you're seeking, which you know you'll, this is actually why we're good.

00:37:22This is why we're professionals.

00:37:23We know to hook a false goal, right?

00:37:27So that, so that when we're shuffling off to Buffalo, there's some tension there, right?

00:37:37Versus like, versus like, don't listen to these wellness gurus.

00:37:41They're crazy.

00:37:43Talk to your friend.

00:37:44It's like, it's like, no, we're with you in the wild dark of night where you, where you.

00:37:51Yeah.

00:37:51Where you cling, cling to the hope.

00:37:54What the hell else are we going to do?

00:37:57Well, you have to go, oh, I've got something coming in the mail.

00:38:01I mean, what else are we going to do?

00:38:05No, cling.

00:38:07Yeah.

00:38:07Sorry to say false idol again, 90 seconds after I said it once.

00:38:12Okay.

00:38:12It's okay.

00:38:12It's powerful.

00:38:13But it is like, yeah, have the false idol.

00:38:15Let it crumble and crack with a white knuckle grip, as Kate always says, right?

00:38:20You get the white knuckle grip to the false idol and it shatters in your hand.

00:38:24You go, no.

00:38:25And then you go, ha, no.

00:38:27And then you go, that's it.

00:38:28Right?

00:38:29And you go.

00:38:29And then you have a little bit where you go, that's, that's the thing.

00:38:33That's the thing.

00:38:33Well, I mean, this is love, right?

00:38:35This is.

00:38:36Wait, sorry.

00:38:37What'd you say?

00:38:37This is love?

00:38:38Well, yeah.

00:38:39Oh, yeah.

00:38:41But I think something that's like.

00:38:44It's you.

00:38:45Yeah.

00:38:45I like so much about listening to you talk is like the search for the proper language

00:38:50with which to describe what you're trying to feel.

00:38:52Or, or, or that maybe it's a, it's a, it's a never ending search or a futile search, but

00:38:57this, I, I can see you both sort of like working through the frustration of trying to have that

00:39:03accuracy of describing a feeling.

00:39:06Yes, indeed.

00:39:08The way language confines and also allows experience, right?

00:39:12Kate, Kate always, we, we, we have some shared academic interests, okay?

00:39:16But Kate, Kate will, you know, you know, very helpfully in various conversations just

00:39:23remind whoever is a fool, right?

00:39:25Language is a, is in a constant state of decay, okay?

00:39:29Anytime anyone tries to, right?

00:39:31That's a classic.

00:39:31Language is in a constant state of decay.

00:39:33Is that one of, is that, yeah.

00:39:34Oh, that's primo you.

00:39:36I think I, I think I latched onto that when I was like 22.

00:39:38Yeah.

00:39:39Yeah, but I think we, we do, we, we, uh,

00:39:42are, yeah, definitely like the unpolished, you know, or unplanned nature of the thing

00:39:49allows a visible spectacle of us attempting to find the words to some, you know, other

00:39:55thing that we don't quite get.

00:39:57I want to ask you each individually about your writing process outside of the pod and

00:40:02sort of how that has evolved.

00:40:06I know you're both working on new material.

00:40:08You're both touring this summer.

00:40:10Um, so what is the current way that you're writing or what's exciting you right now about

00:40:16writing?

00:40:18Well, I would say Jacqueline's a writer.

00:40:19I'm not.

00:40:21I just, that is a false belief held in the heart of a tiny child within a, within a bitch,

00:40:28a bitch who, who needs to bring the child along.

00:40:31I mean, no one is more, she's scarred by a math teacher who doubted her writing.

00:40:36Okay.

00:40:36It's true.

00:40:37Actually, you know, it's true.

00:40:37A math teacher convinced me of plagiarism.

00:40:40She fabricated evidence online.

00:40:42I was very bad at math, but there was an assignment that required writing.

00:40:45How?

00:40:46How?

00:40:47Right?

00:40:47How could Kate wrote this?

00:40:49By the way, it was, it was about like buying a car.

00:40:51And of course all my percentages and everything was off.

00:40:53I didn't understand, but the way I described this car, yeah, there was a written element

00:40:58that didn't matter.

00:40:59And I was like, she was so blown away by Kate's essential intellect and the way it was blooming

00:41:03through this description of the car, all the wrong math.

00:41:06She was forced this, this teacher to falsify evidence of plagiarism.

00:41:10I was brought Kate say after class, huh?

00:41:12And I go, Oh, cause like the grade is so bad from the bad math.

00:41:16She goes, you didn't write this.

00:41:18I go, excuse me, bitch.

00:41:19Okay.

00:41:20She told me that, that I had plagiarized and that, and I started, can you imagine?

00:41:25I mean, my great, everyone's greatest fear, right?

00:41:27Being accused of a crime you didn't commit, right?

00:41:29A dream you can't scream.

00:41:30Being dragged away.

00:41:31Right.

00:41:31And that's what it was.

00:41:33And I go, no.

00:41:34And she said, I, I found what you wrote online.

00:41:37And it was literally, it was Obama and that you lie.

00:41:41You know, it was that.

00:41:44And then of course, and then they brought in the whole thing, the whole school and they

00:41:47go, Oh, it turns out, no, she didn't plagiarize.

00:41:49And my English teacher was brought in handcuffed.

00:41:51She's yeah.

00:41:53Shout out to Ms.

00:41:54Gannon for sticking up for me.

00:41:55And your English teacher, but it is my name.

00:41:58Your English teacher wouldn't agree that he would plagiarize.

00:42:00Sorry.

00:42:01But it is my name.

00:42:05Oh, no, sorry.

00:42:07I'm interrupting you to heal you.

00:42:08No, it's not.

00:42:09No.

00:42:09Okay.

00:42:10Which is, by the way, thank you for, for tracing that thread back to that root trauma.

00:42:13And, and by the way, capital lowercase T's are still traumas.

00:42:16Okay.

00:42:17Here's.

00:42:17And yes, cause I think you're right.

00:42:20And so she told me I wasn't a writer.

00:42:21Imagine if you could walk.

00:42:23Okay.

00:42:23Imagine if you were able to walk down the street, you see a piece of gum, your, your shoe is

00:42:28about to get to that piece of gum.

00:42:30Okay.

00:42:30You spontaneously sort of, sort of vault, right?

00:42:34You leap 12 feet in the air just to avoid the gum.

00:42:37You keep on walking.

00:42:37Right.

00:42:38You go, I'm not a, I'm not a track and field Olympian.

00:42:43Right.

00:42:43Like, that's you.

00:42:46Because you're able, okay, to be a language sniper in a, in a moment's notice.

00:42:54Parkour.

00:42:54You go, I'm not a, okay.

00:42:56You go, I'm not a, I'm not a writer.

00:42:58It's just what I do all day.

00:43:00So, so where, you know, another person might spend years.

00:43:04So, you know, it's important to, it's, it's, it is hard to value what comes easily to oneself.

00:43:09Yeah.

00:43:10Yeah.

00:43:10Right.

00:43:11I love you.

00:43:13Do you, like, do you find the writing process excruciating?

00:43:16Either of you?

00:43:17Yes.

00:43:18No, I'd say, I'll say that the way, like right now, yes, working on standup hour, it's, I

00:43:25don't, I have this fantasy of myself is I sit down at my desk every morning at 7 a.m.

00:43:30after coffee.

00:43:30I know.

00:43:31It's never going to happen, sweetheart.

00:43:33I mean, but that's how I, that's the life that I, that I yearn for, the writer there

00:43:36at the desk.

00:43:37And then, and then I take one hour for lunch and one hour for a walk in the evening.

00:43:41No.

00:43:42Okay.

00:43:42And so, but, but I did, a humble desk, you know, Stephen King, don't make your desk too

00:43:47fancy.

00:43:48Okay.

00:43:48He's like, he's like, four, four legs.

00:43:52He's like, yes.

00:43:54And you are a humble servant to the word.

00:43:57And you're like, oh no.

00:43:59Yeah.

00:44:01Those books.

00:44:03Do you have a routine?

00:44:04Joan Didion, four almonds.

00:44:05I don't know.

00:44:05Four.

00:44:05I mean, you started, Jacqueline, you started a sub stack.

00:44:08Shout out to your sub stack.

00:44:09How dare you.

00:44:11Guys, post is coming.

00:44:13Okay.

00:44:13Month and a half.

00:44:14I know it's been a little while.

00:44:15Okay.

00:44:16But until I get more paid subscribers, how can you expect me to write?

00:44:22Yeah.

00:44:23No, it's, yeah.

00:44:24We'll talk about agony.

00:44:25You know why?

00:44:26Why?

00:44:26Because I have to work through, I have to let go of the idea.

00:44:29I'm writing a sub stack post.

00:44:32I have to go, I'm writing, I'm writing for the people.

00:44:35Okay.

00:44:35And then go, and the publishing mechanism is sub stack.

00:44:40Absolutely.

00:44:40You see the difference?

00:44:41Oh God, I haven't written a sub stack post.

00:44:44Okay.

00:44:44And I just see the orange, you know, the orange of sub stack.

00:44:48Yeah.

00:44:48Oh, time to write an orange accented piece.

00:44:53It's vile.

00:44:54It's a very aggressive orange.

00:44:55Yeah.

00:44:56But like, did you, I think, I want to know why you started that sub stack, because was

00:45:00that to you a place where you could.

00:45:02Cash.

00:45:03Right.

00:45:04It really is always cash for her.

00:45:05The dream of cash.

00:45:07Why did I?

00:45:08No, because I think like to have a looser place to experiment or an offshoot for notebooks,

00:45:13I mean, I feel like you might have, you were saying in your first post that you have

00:45:16all these sort of like fragmentary pieces of writing.

00:45:19What a self-aggrandizing idea.

00:45:21Oops, my fragments, they're diamonds cracked up into shards.

00:45:27You know, like, oh, I'm so ashamed of this, these crushed diamonds.

00:45:33No, but.

00:45:36Wait, Jacqueline, I did, Jacqueline had a hilarious thing on your sub stack, which was a photo.

00:45:40It was like your idea for some kind of piece of art you would have in your home that would

00:45:46contain your passport.

00:45:47So you always knew what your passport was.

00:45:49It's genius.

00:45:50Yeah.

00:45:50There's a, yeah.

00:45:51So it's a, there's a blank square that's very blatant.

00:45:56If the, if the Navy passport is not in that spot, it's pretty good.

00:46:02You can sell it.

00:46:03Yeah.

00:46:04Oh, it kills me.

00:46:05No, my, my fantasies of, you know, of someone wants that, you know, my, I, every, I think

00:46:12before noon, I'm going, somebody would buy that.

00:46:15That's like the core philosophy before noon is I got something.

00:46:19You have, you, we, you do need past life regression because there's something really

00:46:23still working through you of that, like big time.

00:46:25Yeah.

00:46:26Like a, like a.

00:46:28You're like selling, you're like, I keep on doing it.

00:46:30He's like, you want this?

00:46:31What is that?

00:46:32How about a tooth?

00:46:32Like it's like, yeah, look, yeah, yeah, look, this tooth, it works on the, on the

00:46:37beach and it comes out and in, like that kind of thing.

00:46:40Yeah.

00:46:42But we're all salesmen these days, aren't we?

00:46:45I didn't react because I couldn't hear you.

00:46:46Oh.

00:46:48Wait.

00:46:49Uh, well, I was, I, I still want to ask you about writing.

00:46:54Okay.

00:46:54So I'll say this, I'll say this writing.

00:46:57I'll say this writing the, the show, one woman show, also a dirty word, almost as dirty

00:47:02One of the dirtiest.

00:47:02Dirtier than pod, than podcast, I'd argue.

00:47:04One woman show.

00:47:05My play.

00:47:06Yeah.

00:47:07Exactly.

00:47:08That was a, a true, a thing where I did go, okay, I'm going to sit down and write.

00:47:13It was, it was arduous and it was painful and I bought a countdown clock so that I would

00:47:18just have to write an hour.

00:47:19And so it's like the digital countdown from an hour.

00:47:22Boom.

00:47:23And it's like, I just, I have to keep going for an hour.

00:47:25And that did help.

00:47:27And I would say, cause even, cause you go an hour a day, that's nothing.

00:47:31That's a lot.

00:47:33Because there's all the time you go, I'm going to write today.

00:47:35Yeah.

00:47:3645 seconds max.

00:47:37So I think an hour a day keeps the doctor away.

00:47:42I couldn't even, I couldn't even think of a new way to, anyway.

00:47:44No, I liked it.

00:47:45I thought it was fresh to bring doctor into the creative practice.

00:47:49Look, the New Yorker audience, they wouldn't have the courage, right?

00:47:53They hear Berlanto, they go, wait, she's got something.

00:47:56Wait, I want to hear about this motivation strategy you were talking about backstage

00:48:00where you have, you're trying to get your dad to text you.

00:48:02Oh yeah.

00:48:03Yeah.

00:48:03I said, dad, I said, I said, text me something like cash for dad or, you know, like basically

00:48:13like, cause I have this fantasy of, I want, okay.

00:48:16Want to go, this is, want to go deeper?

00:48:19Here we go.

00:48:19Don't worry guys.

00:48:20My parents, it's nothing, it's nothing disturbed.

00:48:23It's actually pretty legit.

00:48:24So like, I think about this a lot, like eight years ago or something, I say to my brother

00:48:28who has children, I don't, I'm sorry.

00:48:31Okay.

00:48:34I said to my brother something like, you know, maybe, like maybe not, you know, like I don't

00:48:39have kids, like, you know, like Christmas, okay, here comes Christmas and my parents are

00:48:42still having to sort of be the parents of me for Christmas as an adult woman, right?

00:48:47Cause I haven't taken on the burden.

00:48:49I'm home for Christmas again.

00:48:52Mommy, what am I getting?

00:48:53You know?

00:48:55And, and so I remember posing to my brother who, who, you know, does have kids, right?

00:49:01Family, the whole thing.

00:49:02Right.

00:49:02I go, maybe, you know, maybe my role is like, like maybe we're thinking of this wrong.

00:49:06It's not take on the mantle and give it to new children.

00:49:08Take on the mantle, give it to new children.

00:49:09Right.

00:49:10I go, maybe it's like, we turn it around, me and my sister, childless.

00:49:13Okay.

00:49:13I go, I go, we turn it back to my parents.

00:49:17Okay.

00:49:17Instead of boom, we go, huh.

00:49:19I was like, and we shock my parents.

00:49:23Okay.

00:49:24With like, with like Christmas miracles.

00:49:26Like they were children.

00:49:29Like, no, it's, it's instead of, why, why does it have to always be down to the next?

00:49:35And then, and then they give it their best shot down to the, how about I turn the fuck

00:49:39around and go, what are your dreams?

00:49:43Right.

00:49:44And so I, I told my dad, like, dad, I actually like, they're, they're not like this.

00:49:48Right.

00:49:49Like, I mean, they're not, you know, but I'm like, I would actually really appreciate it.

00:49:52If you sort of nudged me, like, like a little cash for dad, like, or, or like you're my retirement

00:49:59plan.

00:49:59Like I, I want that because that stimulates me.

00:50:02And that might be the only thing that moves me from first draft to sending it.

00:50:08Right.

00:50:08Because without that, it's only angst.

00:50:13Nothing is, you know, nothing is good enough.

00:50:15Nothing's worthy of bothering anyone.

00:50:17You know what I mean?

00:50:18So.

00:50:19Yeah.

00:50:19I mean, sorry.

00:50:21I know.

00:50:22I say that as a, I mean, you, you wrote a book.

00:50:26You did it.

00:50:28It's an amazing book.

00:50:29Thanks.

00:50:30It's so good.

00:50:31And I just wanted to ask you what that process was like for you to.

00:50:39Crying on the roof, cigarette after cigarette going, why?

00:50:42Okay.

00:50:44Because you're doing it again.

00:50:47Or you're trying to.

00:50:47One would hope.

00:50:48I mean, I mean, I, yeah, I guess I, I guess I, yeah, I am.

00:50:51And it's like, I, I, I usually don't talk about it.

00:50:56Right.

00:50:56Because it's so ugly.

00:50:59It's so ugly to be working on a book.

00:51:00Right.

00:51:02No, I know.

00:51:02I'm sorry.

00:51:03Cause you are.

00:51:04The glamour.

00:51:05It's awful.

00:51:05My books do.

00:51:06My books do.

00:51:08I don't know.

00:51:08It's like the whole thing is simultaneously a performance.

00:51:11Like it's so, um, I think, I think my, like my artistic angst is like so violent that it's

00:51:21actually something that should be hid, like hidden from anyone.

00:51:23Cause it's actually like, it's too much.

00:51:25Like it's over the top.

00:51:27You know what I mean?

00:51:27Like it is as bad.

00:51:29Like I always think of, um, you, you do a rewatch of six feet under recently.

00:51:34I feel like you did.

00:51:34Yeah, I did.

00:51:35I just did my fifth rewatch.

00:51:36Why?

00:51:36It's incredible.

00:51:37New Yorker.

00:51:38If you haven't seen six feet under.

00:51:41Pull it together and quick.

00:51:42Okay.

00:51:44Wait, what were you referencing?

00:51:45Oh, so Billy Chenoweth, right?

00:51:49Yeah.

00:51:49Billy Chenoweth's artistic angst when, when he needs Brenda to stay and not go away with,

00:51:54with Nate for the weekend or whatever, because he's like, I need your eyes and your eyes.

00:51:58He's got all his photographs out and he's like, he's like, it's all shit.

00:52:03Right.

00:52:04I relate to that deeply.

00:52:07Do you relate to that?

00:52:09No.

00:52:10Yeah.

00:52:11No, of course.

00:52:12It's, oh, Jacqueline, this is actually, this is, this is cute.

00:52:16Jacqueline, because I'll oftentimes text Jacqueline from backstage.

00:52:19We text each other from backstage often before a show and I'll text Jacqueline over the years

00:52:23and go, I've got nothing.

00:52:25And I mean it, you know, it's not like I'm doing, it's like, I really mean it.

00:52:29Like I have nothing.

00:52:30And, and Jacqueline would text me years ago, just go out there and do your bullshit.

00:52:34They love it.

00:52:35Or she, she might just.

00:52:37Your usual bullshit.

00:52:38Just, yeah, go do your usual bullshit.

00:52:39And it really freed me.

00:52:40It really helped.

00:52:42Yeah.

00:52:42It really did free her.

00:52:44Yeah.

00:52:44In case anyone thinks it was rude, it was not.

00:52:46No, it's not.

00:52:47No, it's just go do your bullshit.

00:52:49I'm like, right, right.

00:52:51Helps.

00:52:51I don't know if we ever answered the, the writing question.

00:52:53It doesn't matter.

00:52:54Other than like, you know, agony, you know, agony moments of, no, you know.

00:53:00There's no joy, only relief.

00:53:03Oh my God.

00:53:05Yeah.

00:53:06That's good.

00:53:08There's joy.

00:53:09There's joy.

00:53:09You should see me with my grandkids.

00:53:11Joy?

00:53:11Yeah.

00:53:12Joy is rare.

00:53:13Yeah, yeah.

00:53:14You know what?

00:53:15Joy?

00:53:15Yeah.

00:53:17Do you, do you feel like with the, with the Poog, it's something, we were talking about,

00:53:21you know, at the beginning of this talk about how you keep reminding yourself it's, it's

00:53:25art or it's, it's like, that's a little bit, you know, I'm saying that, not you.

00:53:29Don't worry.

00:53:31Um, but does it feel like some kind of a work that you're crafting together?

00:53:36Do you feel like it's building to something?

00:53:38Yes.

00:53:39I don't think it's building to anything because I think that is what it is.

00:53:43It's just inherently kind of cyclical and it is.

00:53:45We don't form the Catholic church at the end.

00:53:48Sorry.

00:53:48I'm continuing with the false idol metaphor, but right.

00:53:52Yes.

00:53:52No, of course.

00:53:53No, build the church.

00:53:54Yeah.

00:53:55Yeah.

00:53:56It's, it's the ruins.

00:53:57Yeah.

00:53:58You know, and so we started with ruins.

00:54:01Yeah.

00:54:03And so the, the show is an artifact, uh, you know, and the show is a conversation between

00:54:09us.

00:54:09It's a testament to, you know, of course the friendship and just the continuing, or we've

00:54:14continued to just go, Oh God, we have to record.

00:54:17I mean, we've been doing the show for, we, by the way, backstage, we weren't sure.

00:54:19Five years?

00:54:20No clue.

00:54:21Okay.

00:54:21Well, five or four.

00:54:23And the, this maybe two weeks ago is the first time we've ever scheduled a recording.

00:54:28Meaning it's always chaos every week.

00:54:31When are we going to record?

00:54:32And we're like, what if we just said, like, how about we try to make nine on Tuesdays work?

00:54:36And it was, I was, it transformed our lives.

00:54:40I lifted nine feet off the ground.

00:54:41Okay.

00:54:42I go, yes.

00:54:44Of, because of course, because, you know, restriction is freedom, right?

00:54:47So going, Oh, the constraints of the 9am, I'm free.

00:54:50Right.

00:54:50So that's, I think, and Pug, similarly, I think having to just nail down, to sit down,

00:54:55do the conversation, try to pull some kind of idea out or something that at least makes

00:55:00each other laugh.

00:55:01That's all that has to happen.

00:55:02If something happens that is intriguing or funny in some way to us, then we have to believe

00:55:07that it's worth putting it out.

00:55:09There is, yeah, there's a vain, there's a vain trust, right?

00:55:13There's a vanity required of an artist.

00:55:16Well, that's for sure.

00:55:16It's like, I saw this, I saw this thing like F1, you know, Formula One racing.

00:55:19Like, it was like.

00:55:20She's obsessed.

00:55:22I haven't watched in two years, but you know what I mean?

00:55:24But, but, you know, they're like, they're like the driver.

00:55:26They're like, you got to find your inner bastard, right?

00:55:28Like, if you're going to really do it, you can overtake people on your own team, whatever.

00:55:31Right.

00:55:32But there is an inner bastard quality where we go.

00:55:33They overtake their own team?

00:55:35Oh, yeah.

00:55:36Sometimes they got it.

00:55:37Sometimes they can't listen to the guy in the ear.

00:55:38I've told you the drama is unreal.

00:55:42It's, okay.

00:55:43And we'll get to that.

00:55:44I finally have a writing answer.

00:55:46Are you ready?

00:55:47But it's related, which is, I go, if I, if my angst kills me, okay?

00:55:54If my angst swirls me deep, deep into the pits, right?

00:55:59This is still something, right?

00:56:02It's like, this is a, oh, because this is nothing, this is just a conversation recorded.

00:56:07It's an artifact of a conversation between friends, right?

00:56:10There's a chance that maybe, you know, if I, like, again, the vanity of the artist, but

00:56:17if, like, if I can't bring myself to give the people anything because it's all shit, I

00:56:22can drag myself to the recording.

00:56:24Do you guys want to do some audience questions?

00:56:29Hard cut.

00:56:30Or flatline them at the end.

00:56:31Hard cut.

00:56:31But I actually, there's lines.

00:56:33I think the vanity flatline.

00:56:34No, no, no, but it is true.

00:56:35And also, I do think, I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to talk about friendship.

00:56:40Cover your ears.

00:56:41Yeah.

00:56:41But it is true.

00:56:43It's like, it's like the, the, the friendship persists and cut me off.

00:56:47No, please.

00:56:48I want something as sort of, I want a wet blanket to the degree of mine.

00:56:53I'm like, give me a wet blanket.

00:56:54But I mean, we do, we are constantly like, the world ends, whatever it is, whatever.

00:56:59The point is, like, we'll still be logging on.

00:57:01Poof!

00:57:01You know, it's like, we, thank God for poop.

00:57:03Right, the fingernails left and rocked.

00:57:04And also, at the very least, and if you are a subscriber, a paid subscriber, thank you.

00:57:08Because at the very least, what you're doing for us is, we're constantly like, the mood

00:57:11elevation.

00:57:12Like, we'll be in different, as you can imagine, different states of distress or anxiety or

00:57:17whatever.

00:57:17And the show really helps us, so thanks, guys.

00:57:20Yeah.

00:57:26I just want to make sure I get some of these audience questions in.

00:57:28Please.

00:57:29People want to know how you two first met, and what were your first impressions of one another?

00:57:34Across the room?

00:57:35That's how I remember it.

00:57:36Yeah.

00:57:37Going, witch, right?

00:57:38Well, well.

00:57:40No, what actually.

00:57:41Two witches in a room of.

00:57:42How we actually first met, I approached you.

00:57:44You don't remember?

00:57:45Outstreet at Pianos.

00:57:46Outside at Pianos.

00:57:48I went, yeah.

00:57:48Oh, I remember that night.

00:57:49And I had seen your clips on YouTube.

00:57:52I had seen your, by the way, the first Heckler clip in history is you.

00:57:56That's hilarious.

00:57:56I just realized.

00:57:57No, it's not the first.

00:57:59I was actually doing a play.

00:58:00I was like, Jacqueline, like, destroys Heckler as a sort of play on that whole thing.

00:58:04She was doing play on Heckler, and now all, now all, people think stand-up now is just

00:58:08interacting with Hecklers.

00:58:10Because all stand-up clips are like, sorry, what?

00:58:12You know, that's like all it is now.

00:58:14And so.

00:58:15Sorry.

00:58:16Sorry.

00:58:17You're from Des Moines.

00:58:18You're from who?

00:58:18And which one's gay?

00:58:20It's like, that's all it is.

00:58:22And so you, you were actually satirizing that before.

00:58:27But the point is, I went out to Jacqueline, because I knew about Jacqueline, because I

00:58:31was.

00:58:31And Kate, Kate, Kate, Kate's got a hawk eye.

00:58:33It's actually a good sign for me.

00:58:35I was a feverish.

00:58:35I was a, I was a, yeah, I was a comedy fan.

00:58:37I go, the New York scene.

00:58:38I know the New York scene.

00:58:39That's Jacqueline goddamn Novak over there.

00:58:41And so I had.

00:58:42Look at me, so happy.

00:58:43I had an open mic at the cake shop.

00:58:45A wonderful show.

00:58:46Called.

00:58:46Yeah, God bless.

00:58:47Get.

00:58:47Here it is.

00:58:47Called Crime and Punishment.

00:58:48Crime and Punishment.

00:58:49That's where I got my show.

00:58:50Perfect name for a comedy show.

00:58:51The only name for a comedy show.

00:58:52The only one I've ever heard that's good.

00:58:53I had a, I had a show there for six years.

00:58:56And Jacqueline was outside Piano's, which is the bar next door, essentially.

00:59:01And I went up.

00:59:01Smoking a cig.

00:59:01And I went up to you, smoking a cig, being cool.

00:59:03And I said, hi, you're Jacqueline.

00:59:04I'm Kate.

00:59:05If you ever want to do my show, I've got a show right here.

00:59:07Come anytime.

00:59:08Let's just say.

00:59:09She started coming, folks.

00:59:11And, and then, wait, what was the quick thing at Piano's that happened with a tomato?

00:59:14You watched someone eat something off my plate, and we both were like, or something, right?

00:59:18It's so funny, because I had a moment just now where I go, or was it Kate that stole my tomato?

00:59:22I'm not going to bring it up.

00:59:23I know.

00:59:24But I, I'm pretty sure, like, the story's either that Kate, she would never.

00:59:29No, no.

00:59:29I think the two of us, I think Kate was like, right?

00:59:33Someone else took a tomato off my plate.

00:59:36Someone, I mean, someone that we knew, but not well enough.

00:59:37No.

00:59:38I don't think we did.

00:59:40We were strangers.

00:59:41It was like four strangers at a table having, like, conversations.

00:59:44One of them took something off your plate, and you and I locked eyes, like, no.

00:59:47Yeah.

00:59:48Yeah.

00:59:50It's so good.

00:59:52Continuing the theme of you two together, someone wonders, if you two got married, how

00:59:58long would it last, and what would be the reason for its potential demise?

01:00:01What, us?

01:00:02Well, lifelong, obviously.

01:00:04We are married.

01:00:04Yeah, next question.

01:00:05No, no, no.

01:00:06Forever.

01:00:06No, absolutely.

01:00:08We would just, you know, it's lifers.

01:00:10You know, my parents, about themselves, you know, we're lifers.

01:00:13You know, we can't do anything about it, right?

01:00:14Yeah, yeah.

01:00:14It's lifers.

01:00:15Yeah, yeah.

01:00:16We would be in it, you know, if we had to have nine therapists to make it work, we would.

01:00:20Of course, of course.

01:00:21There's no, like, there's no, like, Jesus Christ.

01:00:24My fantasy of Poog, right?

01:00:25We lose control.

01:00:26It doesn't become art.

01:00:27It's no longer art.

01:00:28It's a fucking six billion dollar business.

01:00:31Right.

01:00:31Right, right, right.

01:00:32Or it's like, like, imagining us, like, with our, with our lawyers and our therapists going

01:00:36through, being like, okay, you know, trying to make the business work.

01:00:40Can you imagine?

01:00:41Well, you know, a lot of, you know, classic radio, they don't talk.

01:00:44Like, there's, there's nothing but stories of, like, the last 10 years, they never spoke

01:00:48outside of the thing.

01:00:49That's amazing.

01:00:50I know.

01:00:51I know.

01:00:52So, anyway, point is, yeah, I think it's, I know it's lifers.

01:00:55We'd make it work.

01:00:55We'd make it work for the kids, the whole thing.

01:00:58Imagine.

01:00:59Who's going to speak at whose funeral?

01:01:00That's the real question.

01:01:01This is big for Kate.

01:01:03She always jumps to the death.

01:01:06Okay.

01:01:07By the way, literally imagine.

01:01:09Literally imagine.

01:01:10Sorry.

01:01:11No, I can't go there.

01:01:11Talk about the vanity.

01:01:12But, but arguably, unless we, you know, simultaneously go.

01:01:17Well, two coconuts take us out at the same time on vacation.

01:01:19Right.

01:01:20Right.

01:01:21Side by side, free vacation.

01:01:24Coconut or nothing, right?

01:01:25Yeah.

01:01:26One of us is going to have to go.

01:01:34Kate Berlant.

01:01:37What do you even say?

01:01:39Well, let me try for 19 minutes.

01:01:43Right?

01:01:43Imagine in the eulogy, one of us mentioning Poog.

01:01:47Of course, we did Poog for 60 years.

01:01:52Any, any fans in the house?

01:01:55Sorry.

01:01:57Anyway, sorry.

01:01:57No, no.

01:01:58I just want to make sure you get to some.

01:02:00This is, it's a little hard turn, but someone asks, what is the false idol for each of you

01:02:04right now?

01:02:06Oh, live.

01:02:07It came in.

01:02:08Because it came in live.

01:02:09What came in?

01:02:09I go, damn.

01:02:10False idol question?

01:02:11Well, those who are currently listening to the show know my new facialist is really doing

01:02:15a number on me.

01:02:18Her.

01:02:19I'm convinced that she has the answers.

01:02:24Yeah.

01:02:25I don't, I can't explain it.

01:02:27Something's going on in her office.

01:02:29Even when the FDA is coming out with, you know.

01:02:32You saw that, right?

01:02:33RF with microneedling.

01:02:35And you didn't have that?

01:02:36No microneedling with RF ever.

01:02:38Listen to this.

01:02:39And no RF with microneedling.

01:02:42Which is radio.

01:02:43It can lead to permanent fat loss in the face.

01:02:45Okay.

01:02:46And hyperpigmentation.

01:02:48But my facial, I'm doing such a low RF.

01:02:51It's not with microneedling.

01:02:52I'm safe.

01:02:53Live on stage, comforting yourself.

01:02:55Reassurance seeking.

01:02:57Reassurance seeking from you.

01:02:58And by contract, you can't speak to me.

01:03:00Isn't that interesting?

01:03:01Yeah.

01:03:01That's the kind I like.

01:03:02Yeah.

01:03:03It's the best kind of reassurance.

01:03:04You're not sure you got it.

01:03:05So I would say, yeah.

01:03:05That's her.

01:03:06She's your first side note.

01:03:07How about you?

01:03:08I keep downloading these works of this, like, quantum physicist who, but it's very manifest-y,

01:03:15which, you know, you can't talk about too much because no one likes that.

01:03:18You know what I mean?

01:03:19But it's like, he's like, and there's sort of a weird community around him.

01:03:23And I keep putting on his book at night and falling asleep to it, but haven't, you know,

01:03:27kind of haven't heard a single word yet.

01:03:29But I have slept four nights to him going all night about, like, trans-surfing reality.

01:03:37It's getting in, though.

01:03:39It's, and I'm going like, God, I should vet this before I sleep to it.

01:03:43You know what I mean?

01:03:43Anyway, we'll see if Vladim or whatever, I'm trying to, any, I'm back on Pema.

01:03:52Trans-surfing heads in the house?

01:03:54Okay.

01:03:54I said, I'm back on Pema.

01:03:56Chodron.

01:03:56Chodron, of course.

01:03:58She never left, but we're back.

01:04:00Oh, well, I'm back on.

01:04:01Back on Pema, off protein.

01:04:02Carolyn Mace, I'm back on her videos.

01:04:04Off protein, back on Pema.

01:04:05Yeah, off electrolytes.

01:04:06Off electrolytes.

01:04:07Guys.

01:04:07Oh, yeah.

01:04:08Your segment about electrolytes changed my life.

01:04:11I didn't know how much sodium I was taking.

01:04:12I was doing three liquid IVs a day.

01:04:15Oh, sweetheart, not the liquid IV.

01:04:17I know.

01:04:18Well, because what are you really getting?

01:04:19Okay.

01:04:20No, no, no.

01:04:20It was devastating.

01:04:21A fan of Pooh wrote in, you got to try liquid IV.

01:04:25I go, have you looked at the ingredients?

01:04:26Have you flipped over the back, sweetheart?

01:04:30Okay, there's a lot more than sodium in there.

01:04:32No, no, no.

01:04:33Rachel, but listen.

01:04:35We'll get you on that.

01:04:36No, no, but it's true.

01:04:37That's my false idol.

01:04:38I was doing like 3,000 milligrams of sodium every day going, well, the hydration, the water

01:04:44can't even bind to your system if you're not combining it with sodium.

01:04:46We're all sodium deficient.

01:04:48You're fine.

01:04:49Okay.

01:04:50Unless you're, okay, I'm not going to just cut.

01:04:52Yeah, I'm going to go too deep into it.

01:04:53Just, I'm off electrolytes and I've never felt better.

01:04:56No, it's fine.

01:04:57I'm still on them.

01:04:57No, you changed my life.

01:04:58I've stopped.

01:04:59I win cold turkey.

01:05:00Modified dose.

01:05:00I'm still on them.

01:05:02Someone wants to know, what is each of your favorite hotel amenity to have?

01:05:07Okay, okay, okay.

01:05:07Well, first of all, I have an announcement.

01:05:09A hush falls across the crowd.

01:05:10I know.

01:05:11A moan and a hush.

01:05:12Amenity.

01:05:12The lack of Nespresso machines.

01:05:16And this is a given.

01:05:18This is now a human right.

01:05:19My dad raised his fist.

01:05:19It's water and it's the Nespresso in the hotel room.

01:05:24So, a couple hotels and some nice joints.

01:05:27You'll go in.

01:05:28Where is it?

01:05:29Right?

01:05:29And it's really scary.

01:05:31And a lot of these places.

01:05:32You're pulling open cherry wood drawers.

01:05:34I know.

01:05:34To nothing?

01:05:35Yeah.

01:05:36To an iron?

01:05:36I go, upgrade to the steamer or I walk.

01:05:39Yeah.

01:05:40Yeah.

01:05:40But a lot of these fancier joints, turns out you have to call down and ask for the Nespresso.

01:05:45I've completely neglected this part of the crowd.

01:05:47I'm so sorry.

01:05:49But a lot of places you have to call down to the front desk and say, hey, I would like

01:05:53a Nespresso machine or whatever you have available in the room.

01:05:56Because apparently a lot of you people don't drink coffee.

01:05:58Although, I guess I will say, at least they're not.

01:06:00Maybe there's a protection happening.

01:06:02Okay.

01:06:02And I'm just coming to this live in front of the crowd, right?

01:06:05Because I felt the same.

01:06:06And I go, well, maybe it's because of all this, you know, this flight attendant talk.

01:06:10This whole, they're washing out their pantyhose and the Nespresso, right?

01:06:13That maybe there is something nice about, maybe we shouldn't, it's not safe to leave

01:06:17that machine in the room for anyone's want and use.

01:06:20Oh, right.

01:06:21Maybe it's actually nice for them to bring it upstairs for those who really want it.

01:06:25Yeah.

01:06:26Bring it up fresh.

01:06:26I hear that.

01:06:28But aside.

01:06:28What's your favorite one?

01:06:29What's your favorite one?

01:06:30I mean, it really comes down to water.

01:06:34Oh, yeah.

01:06:35I mean.

01:06:36A complimentary when they go, and of course, we have filtered water on every floor.

01:06:39You know, the, ooh, that's nice when you can.

01:06:41No, because, imagine this, Kate.

01:06:44You go into a nice hotel, okay?

01:06:46There's, let me think.

01:06:48Okay.

01:06:49Okay, there's nine, let's just say, what's the dark sapphire, Saratoga or something?

01:06:54Let's just say.

01:06:54Yeah.

01:06:54Okay.

01:06:55Oh, honey, you know you're in New York.

01:06:55Nine of them.

01:06:57Ribbon wrapped around it.

01:06:58Not a sponsor.

01:06:58It says, yeah, all yours.

01:07:03You shouldn't be thirsty, right?

01:07:04And see a limited, a bottle, a finite container, maybe one, two, next to some chips that you

01:07:09know you're paying for.

01:07:10Yeah, right, right, right.

01:07:11Right?

01:07:12And you go, something's not right there.

01:07:13Yeah.

01:07:14The water can't be.

01:07:16So I think until they get the water situation worked out, they get serious and go, we got

01:07:22to give it to them.

01:07:24Take the bed away.

01:07:25Oh, take the couch away.

01:07:27I know.

01:07:28I just love sitting in my half sofa in a hotel room.

01:07:33I love to stare at my own bed.

01:07:36I'm going, just having a nice morning.

01:07:39Waiting and staring at my own bed.

01:07:43That's so funny.

01:07:44Lose the couch, add water.

01:07:45Truly.

01:07:47Someone ask how you deal with parasocial relationships from fans, which is an interesting thing because,

01:07:53you know, who has...

01:07:54You can sit in my lap.

01:07:55I don't care.

01:07:56Yeah.

01:07:57You know, a fan base, so strong, they have a name, you know, Hello Hags.

01:08:05And I wonder if you feel, like, close to the fans, you do it for the fans.

01:08:11Like, what is your relationship with the fans?

01:08:13Very close.

01:08:14Again, I'm not Mariah Carey.

01:08:16You know what I mean?

01:08:17It's like, I'm not like, I can't go anywhere.

01:08:20They're outside my house.

01:08:22You know, it's like...

01:08:24Yeah, yeah.

01:08:25Yeah, it's fun.

01:08:25No, I mean, classically, me running after someone in merch from 90 feet away.

01:08:31Flagging them down.

01:08:32I'm scared.

01:08:32A woman's running for them.

01:08:34Me getting in and going, you're wearing our merch.

01:08:36You're wearing our merch, right?

01:08:37Yeah.

01:08:37It's me.

01:08:38You know?

01:08:40And they're like...

01:08:41No, it's...

01:08:42You want to pick?

01:08:44You want to pick.

01:08:45I'm sorry.

01:08:46I'll leave you alone.

01:08:47I mean...

01:08:48I think we have a...

01:08:51There's always an idea of...

01:08:53Right?

01:08:54There's a...

01:08:54There's an idea of the audience.

01:08:57There's a...

01:08:58It's a strange thing.

01:08:59I love meeting them.

01:09:00Sometimes we joke about the issue, which is...

01:09:03If they don't like the individual work, that's funny to us because technically the podcast

01:09:09is a side project, right?

01:09:10Oh, you mean they like the podcast but aren't...

01:09:12Like, they're like...

01:09:13They're like...

01:09:15They're like...

01:09:17I'm like, I'm here next week, alone.

01:09:18You know what I mean?

01:09:19They're like...

01:09:20They're like, we're hags.

01:09:23You know what I mean?

01:09:24No, the hags are so sweet.

01:09:26The moments when the love of...

01:09:27No, but when the love of the hag has a poison...

01:09:30Has a poisoned unity to only be loved because we're twins or whatever.

01:09:36You know, I don't know.

01:09:38All I'm trying to say is there's nuance to the relationship.

01:09:41Yeah.

01:09:42Love being run in.

01:09:43And as we say, always say hi.

01:09:45Oh, and love it.

01:09:46And extra points if we're with our parents.

01:09:47Yeah.

01:09:47A tap on the shoulder.

01:09:49This is maybe too big for the three minutes we have left but...

01:09:52No, no, no.

01:09:52No, we go...

01:09:53One more hour.

01:09:54Someone asks about...

01:09:55Do either of you have concerns about AI using your voices in the future?

01:10:02Now, do you mean our voices?

01:10:04Or do you mean our voices?

01:10:06No, I think it's like...

01:10:08You know what I mean?

01:10:13I don't know.

01:10:14I'll interpret it freely.

01:10:15Yeah.

01:10:16Using AI to generate like a fake episode of Poog in the future.

01:10:20Bring it on.

01:10:21Yeah, bring it.

01:10:22Bring it.

01:10:22I dare.

01:10:23I dare them.

01:10:24You know what I mean?

01:10:24Well, this was maybe almost a year ago.

01:10:27Yeah.

01:10:27It is accelerating so quickly.

01:10:29Will someone help?

01:10:30I just feel...

01:10:31Anyone have an eye on it?

01:10:33No?

01:10:33Okay.

01:10:34Okay.

01:10:34But when like early chat GBT days when I was like, okay, well, it's going to give me a recipe

01:10:42on how to make a rotisserie chicken dish?

01:10:44You know, oh shit.

01:10:45Or whatever.

01:10:45Like, so we entered in.

01:10:48We were like, what should the name of our podcast be if we had a new podcast name?

01:10:52And instantly, of course, chat GBT is like, Laugh Lines.

01:10:55Laugh Lines.

01:10:56Laugh Lines.

01:10:56And so we're like, God, that's good.

01:10:58Yeah.

01:10:58We're like, oh no.

01:11:00Yeah.

01:11:01No, you know, yeah.

01:11:03No, I, here's what I think.

01:11:06Okay.

01:11:06I mean, people know, I'm a purist.

01:11:08I refuse to engage.

01:11:09There's nothing good about it.

01:11:10Bring it on.

01:11:11I like the idea.

01:11:12Okay.

01:11:12I like the idea of us being flooded with foe.

01:11:16Okay.

01:11:16Of us.

01:11:17I mean, I don't like it, but if it happens, bring it.

01:11:19Right.

01:11:20Well, honey, it's coming.

01:11:21Because 2027, they say it's over.

01:11:24Yeah.

01:11:25I like the idea.

01:11:26I like it because live, right?

01:11:31Live will never matter more.

01:11:33Well, by the way, ain't that the truth?

01:11:35Like the robots, you're going to come back here in two years.

01:11:38Robots are going to be trying to block your entrance.

01:11:41To come see us live.

01:11:41Yeah, yeah.

01:11:42You hurtle past them, right?

01:11:43You've heard a bunch of things.

01:11:44You don't know what was real.

01:11:45Was that them?

01:11:46Right?

01:11:46I don't know.

01:11:47I can't tell.

01:11:47It was sort of strange.

01:11:48Well, maybe they were doing that as a sort of satirization.

01:11:52Right?

01:11:52And then you go in and you see our sweat.

01:11:54Okay?

01:11:54You see, right?

01:11:55And you go, oh.

01:11:56I mean, so I'm kind of like, yeah, bring it.

01:11:59Bring it.

01:12:00It's like a beautiful sort of full circle thing about how we're here live at the New Yorker

01:12:04Festival.

01:12:05You manifested it.

01:12:06I know.

01:12:07Was it everything you dreamed?

01:12:09Yeah, it's fine.

01:12:09But like I said, when you said 75 minutes 75 minutes ago, I thought, sounds like a long

01:12:15time.

01:12:16But now it's here.

01:12:18It felt like, gun to my head, 22 minutes.

01:12:21And so.

01:12:21I'd say, I'd say to me, if I'm really, if I'm going to overshoot it, I'd say 42 max is

01:12:31what we've all experienced.

01:12:32It's really hard to leave.

01:12:33Does this mean that we never get invited back unless something crazy happens?

01:12:36No.

01:12:36You can come back.

01:12:37We have to, we have to.

01:12:38No, I could tell.

01:12:40Okay.

01:12:40No, no, we have, we have to, we have, it has to, we have to all jump.

01:12:44We have to jump a level.

01:12:45The New Yorker, it's the crown jewel.

01:12:47I mean, our parents couldn't be more thrilled.

01:12:48I mean, we're so thrilled.

01:12:49Thank you for having us.

01:12:50Yeah.

01:12:50Thank you, everybody.

01:12:53Thank you, Kate.

01:12:54Thank you, Rachel.

01:12:55Thank you, Rachel.

01:12:56Thank you so much.

01:12:58Thank you, everyone.

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