- 2 months ago
Chief Election Commissioner Gyanesh Kumar on Monday announced the rollout of the second phase of the Special Intensive Revision to update electoral rolls across 12 states and Union Territories.
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00:00Good evening, hello and welcome, you're with the news today. This is your prime time destination, news, newsmakers, talking points and Monday night, we'll get all the news for you at the start of the week.
00:11First, let me tell you what's our big talking point tonight. The Election Commission has now announced a nationwide election revision exercise of the roles. The special intensive revision that was so contentious in Bihar will now extend across the country and we'll raise the big question. Will this end up excluding genuine citizens or is it a purification of the roles? We have a special panel on that.
00:40And also among our guests today will be two former chief election commissioners and Yogendra Yadav will also join us and we'll have plenty else on the show today. Lots of big stories coming up. But first, as always, it's time for the nine headlines at nine.
00:58Election Commission goes ahead and announces a pan-India special intensive revision exercise for electoral rolls. Twelve states to go including poll-bound, Tamil Nadu, Bengal and Kerala. Opposition calls it a game of vote-chori across twelve states.
01:16Farmer dies after a BJP leader in Madhya Pradesh and his aides run a thar over him, assault his daughters. Police say injured farmer was not allowed to be taken to the hospital for about an hour by the accused who allegedly were in a land dispute. Outrage in Madhya Pradesh and beyond.
01:40A UPSC aspirant is murdered in Delhi by his live-in partner. Girlfriend kills him with ex-boyfriend's help. Accused as a forensic student, she staged a cylinder blast to camouflage the murder.
01:56One month after the Karoor stampede in which several people died, TVK chief Vijay meets the kin of victims, breaks down while meeting them in Mabalipuram, urges family to consider him as one of their own.
02:15External affairs minister Jai Shankar meets U.S. Secretary of State Marco Rubio on the sidelines of the ASEAN summit in Malaysia.
02:28Both leaders discuss bilateral ties in the backdrop of ongoing trade talk issues.
02:34Chief Justice of India recommends Justice Suryakant as his successor. He will become the 53rd Chief Justice of India, set to assume office on 23rd November.
02:51India's southeast coast braces for Cyclone Montha, which is likely to make a landfall tomorrow. IMD Issues Red Alert in Odisha, Andhra Pradesh, Tamil Nadu. Fishermen urge to avoid the seas.
03:04A 20-year-old Indian origin woman raped in Birmingham. Police say she was attacked because of a racial identity. Suspect arrested after a manhunt.
03:16And cricketer Shreyas Iyer is finally out of ICU in Sydney after suffering internal bleeding from a rib injury during an ODI in Sydney on Saturday.
03:32He's now expected to remain in the Sydney hospital for at least a week.
03:46It's an absolute shocker that's coming from Madhya Pradesh, where there is an uncanny resemblance to the horrific Lakhimpur Kheri innings a few years ago,
04:01where farmers were mowed down by a politician's son. In fact, a former union minister's son, now a local BJP leader and his associates in a district in Madhya Pradesh are accused of killing a farmer by mowing him down in their thar car.
04:21And not just that, the BJP leader is accused of even being involved in the assault of his minor daughters of the farmer when they try to protect him.
04:32The case has led to plenty of outrage because the main suspect, Mahendra Nagar, who is a Kisan Morcha leader of the local BJP, is absconding.
04:45Search is on for 14 accused in the case, all of whom have been named in an FIR. Police have arrested one person so far.
04:53It is an absolute shocker that has come in today from Madhya Pradesh, where a farmer has been mowed down by the associates of a local BJP leader who then himself was reportedly involved in an assault on the minor daughters of that farmer.
05:12Can it get more shocking than that? Ravish Pal Singh has tonight's top story.
05:23Farmer is brutally assaulted. The injured man is run over by an SUV. His daughter's clothes are ripped apart.
05:35The attack on the farmer, which took place on Sunday, was led by Madhya Pradesh district-level BJP Kisan Morcha leader Mahendra Nagar and his associates.
05:4540-year-old Ram Swaroop, the victim, later succumbed to injuries at the hospital.
05:53J.Kisan Morcha leader Mahendra Nagar-
06:10J.Kisan Morcha leader Mahendra Nagar-
06:16J.Kisan Morcha leader Mahendra Nagar-
06:19A case has been filed at the Fatehgarh Police Station.
06:49According to the FIR, at approximately 2pm on Sunday, Ram Swaroop Nagar of Ganeshpura village was assaulted with lathis by accused Mahindra Nagar and 14 others.
07:04Accused Mahindra Nagar and Lokesh Nagar assaulted Ram Swaroop's daughters who intervened and tore their clothes.
07:12Another accused Jitendra Nagar ran over Ram Swaroop with a Thar SUV, breaking both his arms and legs.
07:20The victim and the accused are neighbours.
07:22Ram Swaroop had allegedly taken money from the accused to sell seven bighas of land in Nahalgarh in Rajasthan.
07:30But the land was yet to be transferred.
07:49The murder has sparked a political showdown.
08:06The people of the party are committed to the victims of the victims.
08:12They are the victim of them.
08:14Today, when the rights of a BJP has given a victim to the victims of the victims, what is the message?
08:22The message is that the victims are the victim of the victims of the victims.
08:26The police have launched a hunt for the accused, but the failure to arrest the main suspect,
08:52even after 24 hours, raises questions about the investigation.
08:56With Ravish Pal Singh, Bureau Report, India Today.
08:59And I want to go straight across to our reporter Ravish Pal Singh, who has been tracking that story.
09:09Ravish Pal Singh, the police have been tracking that story.
09:16The police have been tracking that story.
09:23The police have been tracking that story.
09:30The police have been tracking that story.
09:37The police have been tracking that story.
09:44The police have been tracking that story.
09:51The police have been tracking that story.
09:58The police have been tracking that story.
09:59The police have been tracking that story.
10:00The police have been tracking that story.
10:01The police have been tracking that story.
10:03The police have been tracking that story.
10:05The police have been tracking that story.
10:07The police have been tracking that story.
10:10This is the note that we have access to India, which we have seen in India, which we have seen in this social media platform.
10:20This is the state ministers or union cabinet ministers.
10:26The most important thing is that today's history, this is the 24 hours of this time.
10:33and he is telling us that our sources are told that he is accused because of Rajasthan's border and the accused is hidden from his car from Rajasthan's border and the accused is hidden from his car from Rajasthan's border and the accused is hidden from this accused.
10:56Ravish Pal Singh bringing us those details. Absolute shocker there.
11:00A local Kisan Morcha leader of the BJP is involved in one of the most serious crimes allegedly and has escaped and gone into Rajasthan.
11:09Completely unacceptable. Remember what happened a few years ago with Ajay Mishra Taini.
11:16His son also for a while appeared to get away when he too had mowed down protesting farmers.
11:23That was in Lakhimpur Kheri.
11:26If the police of Madhya Pradesh is watching, they need to ensure that Mahindra Nagar is brought to justice at the earliest.
11:34Thank you Ravish Pal Singh for joining me.
11:36I want to turn from there to our top political focus because the focus today is once again on the election commission.
11:44Today the election commission at a press conference announced that they are taking the special intensive revision exercise to revise electoral rolls across the country.
11:54What started in Bihar rather controversially before the elections there will now spread in the first phase to 12 more states including election bound Kerala, Tamil Nadu and West Bengal.
12:06Predictably the opposition is saying that the election commission is enabling the government with vote surey.
12:13The commission makes it clear it's time to purify the rolls.
12:18In a moment we'll have a big debate on that but first take a look at our top story.
12:26The election commission launches nationwide special intensive revision of electoral rolls.
12:32This massive exercise will cover over 51 crore voters across 12 states and union territories in the latest phase.
12:50The special intensive revision will take place in Andaman and Nicobar Islands, Goa, Puducherry, Chhattisgarh, Gujarat, Kerala, Madhya Pradesh, Uttar Pradesh, Rajasthan, West Bengal, Tamil Nadu and Lakshadeep.
13:18The election commission has clarified that in Assam due to the ongoing NRC process no SIR will be conducted.
13:25No SIR will be conducted.
13:28In the Supreme Court of the Mania Supreme Court,
13:32there will be the action of the action of Nagarikta Kijaj ka karikram lagbagh poon honne wala hai.
13:38The house to house enumeration will take place from 4th November to 4th December.
13:55The draft electoral rolls will be published on 9th December.
14:00Claims and objections can be filed from 9th December to 8th January.
14:05Notices, hearing and verification will be done from 9th December to 31st January.
14:12The final electoral rolls will be published on 7th February.
14:18The election commission has made it clear that Aadhaar can be used only as a proof of identity, not as a proof of citizenship.
14:27Many opposition parties have hit out at the election commission, calling SIR a political conspiracy and questioning the intent behind the move.
14:37Today, ECI, Chnav Aayog, had discussed about SIR in 12 cities in 12 cities.
14:44Now, the reason of Bihar's SIR and the questions that we all did,
14:50didn't get the answer, didn't get the answer.
14:52First of all, the details of the election commission, what they have said,
14:56will be analyzed and evaluated by our leadership.
15:02But the party stands by this point that no valid voter will be omitted.
15:09The election commission, however, maintains that the SIR process is vital for keeping electoral rolls accurate and credible,
15:18removing duplicate, migrated or ineligible voters.
15:23Bureau Report, India Today.
15:25Okay, time for our big talking point tonight on that SIR exercise.
15:34Is a nationwide election special intensive revision exercise timely or not?
15:40Is electoral rolls purification an urgent need?
15:45Or will the SIR once again be seen as an exercise of excluding citizens from electoral rolls?
15:52Is the election commission's credibility on the line?
15:56Let's go to our big debate.
16:01Joining me now are special guests on our debate on the special intensive revision exercise of the election commission that's gone pan-India.
16:10Two former chief election commissioners, N. Gopal Sami and Dr. S.Y. Qureshi.
16:16Also, Yogendra Yadav of the Swaraj Abhiyan, its founder and a critic of the SIR.
16:22Also with us, Rajat Sethi, who's worked with several BJP governments and is a political analyst.
16:28Appreciate all four of you joining us.
16:31Let's get first reactions over this exercise from you, Dr. Gopal Sami and then you, Dr. Qureshi.
16:38Do you all support this exercise going pan-India with 12 more states to be covered in the next three months?
16:46Do you believe that it's a step in the right direction that the election commission has taken?
16:50Mr. Gopal Sami, you first.
16:52Yeah.
16:53No doubt about it.
16:54Having done it in Bihar, you can't stop there.
16:58I mean, it was intended for the entire country, but Bihar came first.
17:03Now, it's being extended to other states in phases.
17:06The next phase takes about 12 states.
17:09The rest of them will follow later on.
17:11So, it's a correct step.
17:16You're saying it's the correct step.
17:18Dr. Qureshi, do you agree it's the correct step or should the election commission have pressed a pause button, consulted more stakeholders before going ahead with it?
17:27No, I think it is a correct step.
17:29And to me, the press conference today was very convincing.
17:34And the most clinching argument was that in Bihar, zero appeals were received.
17:40I think, which means it went out well.
17:42People accepted.
17:43Otherwise, there would have been some appeals.
17:45After that, I don't think there is much scope left for any discussion and debate.
17:50Our concern was that doing this massive exercise in Bihar in just three months would create more problems than it will solve.
18:00The election commission was always confident.
18:02And actually, they proved themselves right.
18:04They were able to pull it off.
18:06Although there may be still some question mark.
18:09Who are these people?
18:10And how many people use Aadhaar?
18:12And without Aadhaar, what would have been the case?
18:15But all these are hypothetical questions now.
18:17Once we know that no appeal by any party or anyone was filed, that I think is a clinching proof that it has gone out well.
18:27And therefore, now to proceed to the rest of the country was the next logical step, which the election commission has been saying from the beginning.
18:34And secondly, the vote will be different in those states from Bihar.
18:39But there was much more time available.
18:41Bihar, the deadline was so tight, it was creating almost a panic situation.
18:47But here, they are going to do the exercise in a stage where elections are due in many months and one year or even two years.
19:01Okay.
19:02So, both the chief election commissioners, former chief election commissioners are giving their thumbs up to the exercise going pan-India.
19:09Yogendra Yadav, as someone who has been a fierce critic of the way the special intensive revision exercise was conducted in Bihar itself, your opening comment.
19:20Rajdeep, I beg to disagree with both the chief election commissioners with all due respect.
19:26My first reaction is that an instrument of mass disenfranchisement has now been refined into targeted exclusion.
19:37That is all that has happened.
19:39Sadly, the election commission has not learned the lessons from Bihar that it should have.
19:44I'm surprised that Mr. Qureshi thinks that lack of appeal is a proof of success, which is what the CEC said.
19:52It is appeal after the final roles were released, and appeal requires you to receive an order.
20:01And in Bihar, no orders were given to anyone whose name was deleted.
20:05So, these are no appeals for deletion of names from draft list into final list.
20:12I'm very surprised that Mr. Qureshi ignores that basic point.
20:16But the basics first. Rajdeep, there cannot be any debate that we need revision of voters list.
20:24And who else can be turned to except the election commission?
20:27The real question is whether SIR is the right instrument for cleanup that is required.
20:33And I have maintained that SIR has some attributes which have not been changed.
20:38Some of things have been improved today, and I welcome it.
20:42The documentary burden has been reduced.
20:44Election commission is doing things not in that episode way as they did in Bihar.
20:49So, election commission has made life easy for itself.
20:52That's to be welcomed. I actually like it.
20:54But the basic exclusionary character has not changed.
20:57Number one, the onus of being on the voters list for the last 75 years has been on the election commission,
21:05not on the voter. That still remains on the voter. That is my biggest problem.
21:10And number two, the nature of documents has not changed.
21:14Election commission is most unwilling to accept even Aadhaar.
21:17And number three, it continues to be principally an exercise in identification of citizenship.
21:25Although it has been sufficiently proven that in 2002, three, four, no verification of citizenship took place.
21:34The documents have been placed in the public domain.
21:36Unfortunately, the election commission goes on lying in this respect.
21:40So, it's a very sad situation right now.
21:44Rajat Sethi, two points coming from what Yogendra Yadav just said.
21:51Importantly, that this remains an exercise of exclusion.
21:55The focus is who do we exclude? Who do we delete? How many do we delete?
22:03And the onus of proof is on the voter, the citizen voter, and not on the election commission as was the case in the past.
22:11So, this goes against natural justice wherein you want the government to prove that an X person is a citizen of this country or not.
22:22I mean, how on earth is that a logic?
22:24Also, you know, the only coherent complaint that was there regarding the Bihar SIR process was it was done too close to the election.
22:34Now, I think since they have preemptively started doing it in India, I believe that core criticism cannot be, again, surfaced because that has been addressed, A.
22:46B, you know, you want to preempt everything by saying that this is a dooms exercise, nothing is going to come out of it, or this is something where the burden of proof is shifted to the citizenry.
22:57I believe such a clean-up of the electoral rolls hasn't happened at a scale that it was needed.
23:02Today, if you print an Aadhaar card, the front page of Aadhaar card itself writes it, that this is only an identity proof.
23:09It is neither an address proof nor a nationality proof.
23:12How can you conflate Aadhaar with nationality is beyond me.
23:16Aadhaar, right from conceptualization itself, even foreigners can apply for Aadhaar.
23:22Therefore, Aadhaar as a standalone document cannot be end all and be all of a voting exercise in this country.
23:29And I believe election commission has to stay true.
23:32Otherwise, you're trying to enfranchise people who are not even citizens of this country.
23:35I don't understand why this simple fact is not being stated by various analysts over the past six, seven months that I'm hearing.
23:44You can clearly say that there is a gap that needs to be fulfilled through an alternate national identity, which is a citizen identity card.
23:51I'm okay with that.
23:52But you cannot conflate Aadhaar being that sole source of document which can replace all other aspects of documentation.
24:00And I believe election commission is clear on its position. It has stable its position even before the Supreme Court.
24:05And Supreme Court has not asked election commission to budge on this position.
24:09And that is what the state of affairs is.
24:11And the biggest sort of, you know, hero around SIR challenge was Rahul Gandhi.
24:16Since 1st September till today's 27th October, he hasn't raised this issue.
24:21He hasn't even visited Bihar to figure out what has actually happened on people who were deleted, were those bona fide deletions or non bona fide deletions.
24:28This is the degree of carelessness that the principal proponent of an SIR mess.
24:32Mr. Rahul Gandhi cares about this issue.
24:34Riyogendra Yadav, you want to quickly respond to that before I widen it to my bigger question on Aadhaar in particular.
24:44But what Rajat Sethi is suggesting is, yes, there were concerns expressed, many of them possibly legitimate because of the short timeframe in Bihar.
24:53But the argument now being made is that since the exercise has been reasonably successful in terms that we haven't seen massive objections from, let's say, boot level agents,
25:05you therefore believe that even the 60 lakh or deletions that originally took place have more or less been accepted as being legitimate.
25:15And therefore, the Bihar model now is being taken across the country with a longer timeframe in mind.
25:22Rajat Sethi, I think Rajat is seriously missing a congressperson to have a little boxing ring with.
25:29I'm unfortunately not that person, so I'll focus on the real arguments.
25:33One argument is that Aadhaar is not a proof of citizenship.
25:38Of course it is not. Who has said that it is a proof of citizenship?
25:42The real question is that there is a list of 11 documents that the election commission gives.
25:48Of the 11, only two can be seen to be proof of citizenship.
25:52One is a passport and the other is a birth certificate.
25:57The remaining nine are not proof of citizenship.
26:01If those nine can be accepted as standalone document, then why not Aadhaar?
26:07Is a class 10 mark sheet a proof of citizenship?
26:11Can a foreigner not get a class 10 mark sheet?
26:14Is a land patta a proof of citizenship?
26:17This is a question not raised by me.
26:19This is a question raised by Justice Bakshi in the Supreme Court.
26:22And the election commission has no answer.
26:24If you allow, so the question is not whether Aadhaar is a proof of citizenship.
26:30The question is whether Aadhaar is at par with nine other documents that the election commission is willing to accept.
26:38The only difference is that those nine documents have very low penetration.
26:43Aadhaar is easily available.
26:45Is that the problem of the election commission?
26:48To assume that what happened in Bihar was alright, because only 47 lakh people have been deleted.
26:57I am absolutely surprised.
26:59Mr. Qureshi and Mr. Gopala Swami can correct me.
27:02This is the largest single exclusion ever in the history of Indian elections.
27:08Not just that.
27:09You may say,
27:11The simple fact is, Bihar today has 8.22 crore adult people.
27:19This is Government of India's data, not my data.
27:22And electoral rolls had 7.89 crore people to begin with.
27:29And it has come down to 7.42 crore.
27:31And we are calling it an achievement.
27:33I am absolutely astonished at this kind of reasoning.
27:36Are we not worried?
27:37The election commission does not spend one minute in the press conference or in the entire exercise
27:43to worry about disproportionate disenfranchisement of women, of which we have given the data.
27:50The election commission has accepted that data.
27:52Election commission has only one answer to the problem of migrants.
27:56That is to say, they should do online.
27:59Every migrant who walks with a laptop should get an online exercise.
28:02Election commission ridiculously says that deduplication is not required because deduplication is illegal.
28:09Sir, who is going to catch that illegality?
28:12Election commission is not interested in the junk names and junk information that comes out.
28:19And all this is not on my account.
28:21The election commission of India in 2016 came out with a wonderful document called National Electoral Roles Purification.
28:32Election commission said why deduplication is important.
28:35Election commission said so many junk names exist.
28:38Why do we need to exclude them?
28:40And today, in a country which gives IT power to the rest of the world, the election commission comes in a nationalized televised press conference and says deduplication is not necessary.
28:51Which clearly shows that the intent is not to clean up electoral rolls.
28:56The intent is something else.
29:01The intent you're suggesting is to exclude.
29:04Rajat, I'll give you a response in a moment.
29:06But just to explain to our viewers before I also go to the former chief election commissioners.
29:10Why did Bihar SIR become contentious?
29:13Many believe citizenship test is not the mandate of the election commission.
29:18Aadhaar, ration card, voter ID card were not accepted.
29:21The accepted documents were much tougher to get.
29:24There was a very short time frame for enumeration.
29:27And it was an exercise in exclusion with no clarity in the end on how many names were being deleted.
29:32Initially, it was over 60 lakhs.
29:34It ended up with a little over 47.
29:36Mr. Gopal Swami, you were raising your finger a moment ago.
29:40Are these objections met?
29:42You see, these are serious objections.
29:43Yogendra Yadav and others went to the Supreme Court.
29:46And the Supreme Court did not entirely reject what they were saying.
29:49Even Aadhaar was seen by the Supreme Court in some way as a 12th document to be added.
29:56Let me first say that I must compliment the election commission for having made the Supreme Court,
30:05which banned the use of Aadhaar in 2015.
30:08Wrongly, I'm sorry.
30:10It was unfortunate that the Supreme Court banned the use of Aadhaar in 2015 or so.
30:15In fact, they issued a contempt of court notice to the election commission.
30:19I wish they had not done it.
30:21If that had not been done, if they had understood that this was going to be at the back end,
30:27only to be used for checking double entries, etc., things would have been much better now.
30:34Anyway, I must compliment the election commission for having made the same Supreme Court.
30:40Now say, use Aadhaar.
30:42Okay?
30:43So, the answer to Mr. Yogendra Yadav is, the election commission did not use the Aadhaar
30:50because the Supreme Court had banned it and issued a contempt of court notice to them.
30:55So, let theā¦
30:56I mean, it was proper that they allowed the Supreme Court itself to say, all right, now
31:01use it.
31:02Okay.
31:03Now, leave aside that.
31:04Now, look at theā¦
31:05Mr. Yogendra Yadav mentioned that this is the biggest reduction or deletion of voters.
31:12I'm sorry, sir.
31:13Deletion of voters in 2007, before the elections in UP, was somewhere around 54 lakhs.
31:22In Karnataka, it was around 52 lakhs deletion and then added.
31:27So, such exercise of deletion of about 45 lakhs, out of which 22 lakhs were dead voters.
31:36Okay?
31:37So, youā¦
31:38Nobody wasā¦
31:39I mean, you cannot say that their franchise is being taken away.
31:43No.
31:44Obviously.
31:45I mean, you can't expect a dead man to come and vote.
31:47Okay?
31:48Now, the rest of it, 7.5 per duplicates.
31:52That leaves only a smaller number, not much smaller, but a number which is around 30-35
32:00lakhs.
32:01Where the claim was that they had been shifted.
32:04They had shifted.
32:05So, now, when you giveā¦
32:07See, the methodology adopted this time was totally different.
32:11For every person on the list, a written document was given to the person saying that now you
32:17can answer.
32:18Now, where the person was not on the list, obviously, the person is not being given the
32:23paper.
32:24So, the initialā¦
32:26So, thatā¦
32:27The point is, supposing you are not on the list and therefore, you didn't get aā¦
32:32But you areā¦
32:33You are a voter.
32:34The BLO and the BLAs are there to help you to apply.
32:38Saying that, look, I mean, you have not given me the document, but I am very much a voter.
32:44I am very much staying in this place.
32:46So, here is the application from my side.
32:49So, what was the problem with that?
32:51So, not giving the list of deletion, I think it's an excuse which is being proper, just to say that, you know, whatever is being done is wrong.
33:03A quick one.
33:04Okay.
33:05If I may.
33:06Dr. Qureshi, do you want toā¦
33:07Yeah, yeah.
33:08Yeah, yeah.
33:09Yogendra Yadha quickly and then Dr. Qureshi and Rajat.
33:11Yes, Yogendra.
33:12I am sorry to correct Mr. Gopalaswamy, but sir, the election commission did not get the Supreme Court to accept Aadhaar.
33:20The election commission protested, kicked, cried, did everything possible to prevent Aadhaar from being ordered by the Supreme Court.
33:29You may not have had the time to follow the Supreme Court proceedings.
33:32The election commission filed an affidavit.
33:34The election commission did everything possible in the Supreme Court to prevent Aadhaar from being added as the 12th document.
33:42Sir, I was there in the court, I speak with authority and I am liable to be punished if I am misreporting the Supreme Court proceedings.
33:49Number 2.
33:50May I know which year it was?
33:53Sir, this is right now 2025.
33:56I am speaking, I am, I am, I don't, I am not speaking.
33:582025.
33:5925, sir.
34:00I am speaking of the current proceedings in the Supreme Court for which you are complimenting the election commission.
34:06You were saying, you were complimenting the election commission for getting the Supreme Court to change its stand.
34:12All I am pointing to you, sir, humbly, is that the election commission did nothing of that kind.
34:17The election commission tried its utmost to prevent the Supreme Court from ordering this.
34:23And they are on record for doing so.
34:25Repeatedly they did so.
34:27I was in the Supreme Court, sir.
34:29That's a small point.
34:30And number 2.
34:32While you could be absolutely correct about UP and Karnataka, sir, but I may just wish to check with you.
34:39Are you speaking of net deletions or gross deletions?
34:43Because gross deletions in Bihar are 68 lakhs.
34:46So, the two figures that you gave, were they net or gross?
34:50I may be incorrect, but I would wish to be guided by.
34:53Please, please check.
34:54The net deletion is not 68.
34:56The gross deletion was 68.
34:58And there are additions afterwards.
34:59Yeah, that's what I am saying.
35:00I am talking about, I am talking about the Karnataka and UP.
35:05The final net deletions of 52 lakhs.
35:08And 54 lakhs.
35:10UP and Karnataka.
35:12Okay, we've heard.
35:13Okay, we'll get that.
35:15We'll get that checked again.
35:17But Dr. Qureshi, you see, what it's coming down to is also a lack of trust, many believe, in the election commission.
35:23I look at the numbers.
35:25A CSDS survey a few years ago had pointed out a very high trust in the election commission.
35:3175%, 80%.
35:33That's come down substantially.
35:35All of this is coming at a time when there is a slight trust deficit.
35:39It's not just activists.
35:40There are many who believe that the manner in which this exercise was carried out in
35:45BR and now if it's replicated nationwide, particularly in border states like West Bengal, there will
35:51be again an outcry because there's a fear that this is being designed in a way to create this
35:58impression of excluding people, including those who voted consistently for the last 20 years in elections.
36:05Yeah.
36:06You know, before I answer the comment about the image of the election commission, just a quick
36:15response to Mr. Yoginder Yada when he said that no appeal was filed because the order was not handed over.
36:23And I'm surprised to know that because 68 lakhs, at least some orders would have been handed over.
36:30At least there should have been 5 appeals and 10 appeals out of 68 lakhs.
36:34So zero appeal to me because that's why I said it is a clinching argument.
36:39And I have been a skeptic.
36:41I've written about it.
36:42I've appeared on stage with Mr. Yoginder Yada.
36:46But actually, frankly, I'm floored by this.
36:49Secondly, the Aadhaar issue.
36:51I must recall that Aadhaar was started in my time when Nandan Neelakani was just appointed.
36:58He came to meet the election commission.
37:00We had started collecting biometrics in Goa.
37:03Then we said, look, we will combine the two data, and we will now stop collecting biometrics
37:08because you're going to collect anyway.
37:10And at one point, we will link the thing.
37:12The election commission ordered that it should be linked, and the Supreme Court then declared it illegal.
37:17But to remind Mr. Gopala Swami, later on, the same Supreme Court, a couple of years later, declared it legal.
37:24And the election commission started linking it once again.
37:27So, currently, the status is that it is legal.
37:30Second point, which I would like to say that, agreeing with Mr. Yoginder Yada, that the election commission was opposing both introduction of EPIC and Aadhaar in those 11 documents.
37:41And the impression created is that the Supreme Court thrust it on the election commission.
37:48My interpretation is the Supreme Court did a favor to the election commission because if Aadhaar continued to be excluded,
37:56half of the applicants would not have been able to file because how many people have a passport in Bihar?
38:03So, therefore, the fact that the other documents are not easily as widely available as Aadhaar,
38:09Aadhaar's inclusion actually was a favor to the election commission.
38:14May I make just one correction, Rajat?
38:17Rajat, you want to intervene as you are hearing?
38:21Yes, very quickly again, Yoginder Yadhaar.
38:26Sorry to have to correct one more, Chief Election Commissioner.
38:30Sir, you may have been conflating that two different kinds of appeals, two different kinds of process.
38:36For the 65 lakh people whose names did not figure on draft electoral rolls because they had not submitted enumeration form,
38:45no order was given according to election commission, no formal notice was required.
38:51There was no order, no notice, no appeal.
38:54So that is not appeal at all.
38:56What the election commission is claiming today in the press conference is a very limited thing.
39:01They are saying of the 3.66 lakh names that were deleted after the draft electoral rolls,
39:09they have not received any formal appeal.
39:12And our plea in the Supreme Court was,
39:15please show us a single order that has been issued to any one of those persons or their families.
39:21I am yet to see any single order.
39:23Where there is no order, how can you appeal, sir?
39:29Okay. Rajat Sethi, respond to what you've just heard.
39:34It seems at the moment, as I said, the trust deficit factor.
39:37A lot of this is about trust.
39:39The election commission was an extremely trusted body.
39:42Now it's caught up in a political tug of war and its trust, in a sense, is where the question mark lies.
39:50You mentioned Rahul Gandhi, how he hasn't gone to Bihar.
39:53He hasn't found out how many names are actually deleted subsequently.
39:58Do you, though, concede there is a trust deficit or not?
40:02Or even, is that also being manufactured, you believe?
40:05Of course, if you look at the causal chain between this trust deficit which has apparently gone down,
40:13isn't media and isn't the entire SIR the way it was presented before the public is bound to create such kind of impact on the voters' mind?
40:21Where is it that in isolation this thing is coming from the public?
40:26If there were so many deletions, why were people not on the ground?
40:2960, 70 lakh is not a small number that you can ignore as a rounding of error.
40:33Why were the so-called quote-unquote disenfranchised people not hitting the streets and Congress or any other opposition party trying to champion their cause?
40:43It would have been a perfect sort of an election issue which they could have gone to the town making this as a central Bihar issue.
40:49But where is that issue for the past 15, 20, 50 days actually?
40:53Not a single whisper of this issue on the ground because this is a non-issue.
40:56The problem is that if you want to take an ideological position and then try to look for any kind of irrelevant evidences just to conflate that position,
41:06that does not lead to a coherent argument.
41:08My simple problem is today India is facing a problem where it desperately needs a register of citizens
41:16which in isolation can become, you know, can extend to voting rights to those citizens.
41:22Currently we don't have.
41:23People sitting there on the other side of the aisle typically raise so many objections around this NRC exercise also.
41:31Where do you want to stop? You tell me that.
41:33You don't want NRC, then you want to suddenly jump and say that the voter ID card should necessarily piggyback on Aadhaar.
41:39How is that reasonable? I have served in the border states.
41:42I can tell you Aadhaars are distributed as if it's nobody's business.
41:46People have like Pan Gumti shops, they've opened up, issuing Aadhaar cards and making people indirectly bona fide citizens of this country.
41:53And then taking up the advantages of various government schemes, taking advantages of reservations and taking away the rightful reservation benefits from people who deserve it.
42:03But Rajat, Bihar also shares a border with countries like Nepal and if I look at the list as per the election commission,
42:16there is still no suggestion that large scale ghuspetiyas or infiltrators from other states have come in and got illegal citizenship.
42:24I'm just referring to Bihar at the moment. The truth of the matter is this is also propaganda that there is large scale infiltration taking place.
42:33See Rajdeep, large scale, small scale or even a single person crossing the border illegally taking Aadhaar and then illegally becoming a voter of this country is problematic to me.
42:42And I don't think election commission has the responsibility or has come out and said that, oh, mass illegal migration is not happening at scale.
42:50Did any government body made that assertion or otherwise?
42:53The answer is no. We are as interpreters trying to interpret what all is there. That need not be official position.
42:59This is why you require a national register of citizens to establish exactly this, whether this quantum of illegal migrants in this country is very big or very small or negligible.
43:09That needs to be established. How else do you do this exercise?
43:12Sure, but the NRC exercise is not the job presumably of the election commission certainly.
43:19That's what I exactly said. So you cannot expect an ideological position.
43:23No, no, no. My point is you cannot expect election commission to come out and say that, okay, legal migrants weren't there in the list, we couldn't identify.
43:30You're answering the wrong, you're asking the wrong question from the election commission and reaching to a conclusion nevertheless.
43:36Okay.
43:38Rajdeep, this one thing must be put on record.
43:41The charge is that you're taking an ideological position and then trying to get the facts to fit in that ideological position.
43:51According to Rajat Sethi, there is a genuine problem in the border areas of people who may have got Aadhaar
43:57and may not necessarily be citizens of the country and therefore cannot get voting rights.
44:01Your quick final response to that.
44:03Rajdeep, of course there is a genuine problem.
44:06And last I heard the Aadhaar authority was not working under the government of Pakistan or Bangladesh.
44:12I thought the home ministry of the country had something to do with it.
44:15And if for the last 11 years you are ruling this country and you cannot get your core card correct,
44:22and you complain that, oh my God, this is weird.
44:25Aadhaar can be given to foreigners also.
44:27No sir, Rajdeep, please stop spreading misleading information.
44:33There are two different kinds of Aadhaar cards.
44:36An Aadhaar card, which is given to foreigners, has an expiry date written into it.
44:41So please don't spread misinformation.
44:43These are two very different things.
44:45But allow me to say just one thing.
44:47Election commission.
44:48He says, why are we asking election commission?
44:50Sir, I'm asking election commission because at the beginning of SIR,
44:54election commission tells me there are four major objectives.
44:57One of which is detection and deletion of illegal foreigners.
45:02So at the end of that exercise, am I not entitled to asking them, sir, how many foreigners have you detected and deleted?
45:10In the SIR orders point five B, there is a requirement that any foreigner who is deleted has to be reported to the foreigners authority.
45:20So am I not entitled to asking the Bihar government and India government, how many such reports have they received?
45:27And why is it that election commission, chief election commission in the nationally televised debate today pointedly refused to answer this question when it was asked to him twice.
45:38So how many foreigners have you deleted?
45:41And this is not a weight category.
45:42Not an Indian citizen is an official category for objection and official category for deletion.
45:49So election commission has the data.
45:51Why is it that you don't share it with the country?
45:53What is it that you want to hide?
45:55Is it that you didn't find any and you are too embarrassed to report it?
46:00You know, that's an interesting...
46:04Yes, Mr. Gopal Saabi, you've raised your finger.
46:06Go ahead and conclude the debate.
46:08Quickly, two points.
46:09One, I agree that if you keep on repeating a lie, it becomes, you know, people start thinking it is true.
46:15So the entire campaign against election commission losing credibility was something of that kind.
46:20That is one.
46:21Leave aside that.
46:22Let's talk about the appeals not being made.
46:25You had 1.6 lakh BLAs, apart from about a lakh BLOs.
46:30BLOs are under the government or the government servants, while BLAs are of the political party, a lakh and 60,000.
46:40If they had found that wrongly some names have been deleted, they would have certainly applied.
46:49After all, every political party had an interest in ensuring that the persons who are very much available for voting,
46:58and they have been wrongly removed, had to be projected and brought to the notice of the election commission,
47:03and nobody did that.
47:04What?
47:05Lacks of things were fired, sir.
47:08You make a fair point there.
47:09I also want to get you, doctor.
47:11You make a fair point there.
47:12Why?
47:13No, no.
47:14One minute.
47:15No, no.
47:16I think it's fair to ask why have booth-level agents not made more objections is one of the points which is made
47:21by those who believe that the SIR exercise is not as flawed as critics believe.
47:25But, Dr. Qureshi, do you agree with Yogendra Yadav that at least the names of the so-called foreigners
47:31who have been detected should, the number of them should be made public?
47:34Names and numbers, at least the number we don't still know in Bihar.
47:38If this exercise was designed to remove the so-called Ghospatiyas, as the government of India claims,
47:43how many Ghospatiyas actually were found in the end?
47:46Should the election commission not tell us or it's not my job?
47:50Yes.
47:51I agree with Yogendra Jadav that the whole exercise started in the name of foreigners.
47:56We must know.
47:57I am curious to know how many foreigners were found.
48:00Why is the election commission not coming out very clearly about that?
48:04And I saw the press conference entirely and he is right that twice the question was raised
48:09and we didn't get the answer.
48:11So, even now through your program, we would like to know how many foreigners have been found.
48:16He said, we are very worried about the foreigners being on the roll.
48:19They must be thrown out.
48:21But what is their number?
48:23How many were found?
48:26Okay.
48:27Okay.
48:28So, you are very clear on that.
48:29Yogendra, the final word.
48:30If all of theā¦
48:31And this point was made by Rajat also.
48:33If there was so much ofā¦
48:34If it was such a deeply flawed exercise, would people not protest in larger numbers, including
48:42the Booth level agents of theā¦ and the block level agents of the different parties?
48:48Rajdeep, my friend Rajat forgets that there was something called Voter Adhikar Yatra in Bihar,
48:54which went for 10 days, in which thousands, if not millions, participated.
48:59And the entire yatra was about this.
49:02Millions of people were on the street.
49:04But forget it.
49:05You know, get a Congress or RJD spokesperson next time.
49:08They'll probably argue that case out.
49:10And in this discussionā¦
49:12No, no.
49:13But that's different to protest.
49:14No, Yogendra Yada, why haven't Booth level agents protested or political parties?
49:19We saw that evenā¦
49:20That's an argument even in Maharashtra, which I keep hearing.
49:23Whyā¦
49:24If there wasā¦
49:25If there were so many mass deletions unfairly done, should the local level, Booth level agents
49:30not have noticed it and protested?
49:33No.
49:34It is not their job to protest.
49:36It is their job to file objections.
49:39It is their job to file and allow people to get in.
49:42And in this, there is a serious conflation in this particular discussion.
49:45I think we are justā¦
49:47Of the 65 lakh names that were deleted, please remember about 4 lakh objections were received,
49:55and 21 lakh new names have been added.
49:59And I am saying with all seriousness that out of these 21 lakh names, at least 3 to 4 lakh names
50:07were of those who were unduly excluded in the 65 lakh list.
50:12Unfortunately, the election commission, in a completely illegal manner, forced these people whose names had been excluded,
50:20forced them to fill form 6 and come as a new voter.
50:23And I have demonstrated, Rajdeep, to the Supreme Court, that people who are 100 years old have applied in Bihar,
50:31reapplied in Bihar to become new voters.
50:33Clearly, these were the excluded voters.
50:35So, to say that not one thing has happened is a complete lie.
50:38Lacks of names have been added.
50:41Lacks of objections have been made.
50:43The point the election commission today was making was only about the 3.66 lakh final stage deletions that took place after the draft electoral rolls.
50:54And I repeat, no one can appeal against an order which they have not received.
51:01In that final stage, the election commission did not actually give orders.
51:05Okay.
51:09I think what is very clear is also the lack of transparency.
51:13I think one of the problems with this entire exercise has been the complete lack of transparency at different levels,
51:18and the inability to take the stakeholders on board who are the main stakeholders.
51:23Not just we, the citizens, but the political parties who actually have the maximum at stake in some way along with us voters during elections.
51:32So, if the election commission was more transparent, engaged possibly with political parties rather than dictating to them,
51:39maybe the SIR exercise would have involved more trust.
51:44The fact, though, is we do need purification of the rolls.
51:48The question is, how do you purify the rolls?
51:50Purely by extrusion or ensuring a rigorous, transparent exercise?
51:55To all my panelists for joining me on this debate, I appreciate it.
51:59Hello, Raji, one word.
52:00Thank you so much.
52:01Raji, please give me one word.
52:02Please give me one word.
52:03You are summing up saying that...
52:05Yes, okay.
52:06One final word.
52:07I can't stop.
52:08...is an unnecessary remark, because if you have 1.6 lakh...
52:13No, why haven't they met all the political parties?
52:16If they are political parties represented...
52:19Sir, but what stops the election commission from holding all party meetings in every state, getting every state on board?
52:26That's what I meant.
52:28This is an exercise which could be done with a greater element of consensus.
52:32Please understand.
52:33Please understand that was done by the CEOs.
52:35CEO is also a representative of the election commission.
52:40Let's leave it there.
52:41I appreciate...
52:44Okay.
52:45I appreciate my guests joining me.
52:47Thank you so much.
52:52Okay.
52:53Let me leave you then with our image of the day.
52:55It is Chhat Puja.
52:56And it is an occasion which is very special for millions of people across states like Bihar and Jarkhand in particular.
53:06A moment to in a way venerate and celebrate the river.
53:12Which is why across North India you are seeing number of people celebrating Chhat Puja today.
53:18We wish you a safe and joyous Chhat Puja.
53:22Thanks for watching.
53:23Stay well.
53:24Stay safe.
53:25Good night.
53:26Jai Hind.
53:27Namaskar.
53:28Alright.
53:29I am not sure about that one.
53:42So I am not sure about Chhat Puja.
53:43Ta pick no chains you out.
53:48This is an exercise I am not sure about the food or diet of it.
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