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02:03And nobody new has been named for that job.
02:07Trump has also quietly just withdrawn his nomination for the person he wanted to put in charge of veterans benefits at the VA.
02:16That nomination has been pulled as well.
02:18Trump has also quietly just withdrawn his nominee for a senior oversight position at HUD.
02:23That nomination has been pulled as well.
02:26Trump has quietly just withdrawn his nomination for the person he wanted to be ambassador to Serbia.
02:33That's gone now, too.
02:35Trump has quietly just withdrawn his nomination to lead the CFTC, the Commodity Futures Trading Commission.
02:41That nominee then posted online about Trump donors telling him to, quote, rectify, meaning spike, a CFTC case against them, against the Trump donors.
02:52He says he refused to do that, and he says that's why his nomination was pulled.
02:59Trump's deputy White House chief of staff just quit and left.
03:02The chief of staff to Attorney General Pam Bondi just quit and left.
03:06They just removed the 25-year-old Fox News producer.
03:10They put in charge of the commission that's supposed to run the America's 250th birthday celebration.
03:18How come all these people are being pulled?
03:20How come all these nominations, controversial for one reason or another, are all just being yanked, can't stand the bad press, can no longer take it political capital-wise, to have unpopular or problematic nominees pushed through the news cycle?
03:36Don't feel strong enough to bear that brunt anymore the way you used to?
03:39Today, this was a large protest on the lawn at the main campus quad at the University of Virginia.
03:49This was the protest there today with students and faculty and staff telling the UVA administration that they should refuse to sign this deal with the devil compact with the Trump administration to supposedly get special preferences in federal funding if you agree to Trump's ideological strictures on your academic freedom.
04:09This was the protest today at UVA, telling the UVA administration, don't you dare, do not sell us out, don't you sign that thing.
04:19This was today.
04:19And then this, tonight, was the statement, in fact, released by UVA's president, saying, OK, OK, we're not doing it.
04:27We have told the Trump administration no.
04:28Remember when it was just Harvard standing up and all the other universities were too intimidated to say no, to say no?
04:37Well, now, even the ones that caved before or that signed deals before with Trump, places like Brown University, even those schools have now learned that maybe signing deals with Trump is not a good idea.
04:51Trying to appease him, you know, trying to stay in his good side is folly.
04:55It just shows weakness.
04:56It invites him to come back and bully you some more.
04:59And so in quick succession, we have seen MIT and Brown and Penn and USC and now UVA as well.
05:07They've all told the Trump White House, no, we're not doing it.
05:11We're not signing on to your little compact to restrict our academic freedom and our ideological freedom of movement in order to try to keep you happy.
05:20No, we are not doing it.
05:21We have learned our lesson.
05:23Forget it.
05:25The Pentagon Press Corps, all the real reporters at the Pentagon, even the ones from Fox News this week all walked out in unison.
05:33Telling Trump, no, we're not going to do it either.
05:35We're not going to agree to just write down what you tell us instead of doing actual journalism.
05:40No, we are not doing it.
05:43They walked out in unison on mass.
05:46They told him no.
05:47In Chicago, we're seeing spontaneous protests in every city, neighborhood and in every suburb against Trump's apparently untrained, totally out of their depth paramilitary dress up immigration agents who, among other things, are now regularly tear gassing Chicago police officers.
06:06Federal judge has now ordered Trump's federal agents from the bench, quote,
06:10You can't deploy tear gas.
06:12You can't use flashbang grenades.
06:15You can't drive a car through a crowd.
06:17You can't shoot them in the head with pepper balls.
06:20The judge has ordered that Trump's federal agents in Chicago must not only change their ridiculous tactics.
06:28They must now wear body cameras and they must have them turned on.
06:32A different federal judge had ruled that the National Guard cannot be deployed to Illinois.
06:38That ruling has now been upheld by a unanimous three-judge panel of a federal appeals court.
06:45In Washington, D.C., where Trump installed yet another Fox News host to be U.S. attorney in that city, they tried once.
06:53They tried twice.
06:54They tried three times to convince a grand jury to bring a felony criminal indictment against one D.C. resident who was part of a protest there.
07:02All three times, the grand jury refused to move ahead with those felony charges.
07:07Jeanine Pirro's office then instead finally charged this young woman with a misdemeanor for which they put her on trial.
07:14That was yesterday.
07:15The jury laughed them out of the courtroom and acquitted her yesterday afternoon after about a nanosecond of deliberation.
07:24As Trump continues to personally order up criminal indictments against people he doesn't like, James Comey, Tish James, now John Bolton.
07:33Tonight, two more veteran prosecutors have reportedly been fired after refusing to bring what they believe to be a baseless prosecution against New York Attorney General Tish James.
07:42Yesterday, in that district, in the Eastern District of Virginia, a judge who is Trump-appointed, took a moment, a dramatic moment from the bench at the conclusion of a big national security case.
07:57took a moment from the bench to praise James Comey's son-in-law, who recently resigned as a prosecutor in the Eastern District of Virginia when that office charged his father-in-law, James Comey.
08:09The judge praised the prosecutor from the bench, saying, quote, how saddened he was that I will, quote, not have the privilege of him appearing in my courtroom again.
08:22He said he was disheartened to know that the Department of Justice and our nation will be deprived of his obvious talents and integrity going forward.
08:29He said, quote, lawyers who stand up for the rule of law provide an essential contribution to the cause of freedom.
08:37The judge said, quote, what makes our country great is that we are a free country and our great nation serves as a beacon for freedom around the world.
08:47But freedom and the rule of law necessarily go hand in hand.
08:51You cannot have one without the other.
08:53Again, a Trump-appointed judge making very pointed comments from the bench at the conclusion of a national security case in EDVA.
09:03That comes in the wake of another Trump-appointed federal judge issuing just a rip-snorting opinion, not only blocking Trump from sending troops to Portland, but really eviscerating him in very sharp language for even having the temerity to try it.
09:21New AP polling has Donald Trump 24 points underwater in his job approval rating.
09:28This afternoon makes it three indictments of Donald Trump's critics in a little over three weeks, because today, John Bolton, the former national security advisor to Donald Trump, surrendered himself to law enforcement and submitted a not guilty plea to a federal indictment.
09:47There are 18 counts in all they have to do with the retention and transmission of national defense information, specifically diary notes shared by email with two people who did not have the proper security clearance.
10:01Those notes were regarding his day-to-day activities as national security advisor to Donald Trump.
10:07In addition to travel restrictions put into place on John Bolton today, he also faces up to 10 years in custody and a $250,000 fine per count, meaning if convicted, he could possibly spend the rest of his life in prison.
10:23His next court date is November 21st.
10:26As his case and his defense come into focus, so too do some of the similarities and differences between this particular indictment and prosecution and those of Donald Trump's other political targets.
10:40The comparison is pretty simple.
10:42This is yet again an example of the Justice Department's unique and formidable singular power relay trained on one of Donald Trump's critics.
10:51And yet there are distinctions as well.
10:53Consider that where the cases against Jim Comey and Tish James were brought by a political appointee, the indictment against John Bolton is being handled by career prosecutors, at least at this point.
11:05In other words, there appear to be there appears to be more there there in the Bolton instance.
11:10This is where the nuance comes into play, though, because John Bolton was not exactly the first person in American history to ever see or handle classified information prior to writing a book about his time in government.
11:23So he certainly could not have been the first and only person to submit manuscripts as part of his publication review designed to then remove the sensitive passages.
11:34In fact, the only reason we're even aware that Bolton shared this information is because while Joe Biden was president, U.S.
11:41intelligence covertly penetrated the systems of Iran and discovered that that country, Iran, had hacked one of the email accounts associated with John Bolton in response to the indictment.
11:54Bolton released a statement that reads in part, quote, when my email was hacked in twenty twenty one.
11:59The FBI was made fully aware in four years of the prior administration.
12:04After these reviews, no charges were ever filed.
12:07Then came Trump, too, who embodies what Joseph Stalin's head of secret police once said, quote, you show me the man and I'll show you the crime.
12:17These charges are not just about his focus on me or my diaries, but his intensive effort to intimidate his opponents, to ensure that he alone determines what is said about his conduct.
12:28Dissent and disagreement are foundational to America's constitutional system and vitally important to our freedom.
12:36I look forward to the fight to defend my lawful conduct and to expose his abuse of power.
12:43Now, if only John Bolton had shared sensitive information over Signal using the Signal app or stored boxes of it in his Mar-a-Lago bathroom, maybe he, too, would be a free man, but not likely.
12:56That's where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends.
12:59With me at the table, New York Times investigative reporter Mike Schmidt and former criminal division deputy chief at SDNY, MSNBC legal analyst, host of a new YouTube show Courtside.
13:09Christy Greenberg is back.
13:10Also joining us, publisher of The Bulwark, host of the Focus Group podcast, spokesperson for Home of the Brave, Sarah Longwell is back with us.
13:18Sarah, it's great to have you back.
13:19I want to start with you and ask you if this is sinking in.
13:23I've seen some of the poll numbers Americans overwhelmingly disapprove of using the justice system to prosecute one's enemies.
13:32But what isn't clear to me is how many people are aware of this pattern and practice.
13:37Yeah, look, I would love to say that the American people are incensed about this.
13:43But the fact is, the number one thing we are hearing from voters in terms of what they are frustrated about really is the economy prices.
13:51And what they see is Donald Trump's failure to focus on those things and instead focus on things like prosecuting his enemies.
13:58And so it's not that they're not aware of it.
14:01It's just that they're like Trump is doing this thing where it's about, you know, making himself happy and going after people he doesn't like instead of focusing on the things that I care about.
14:11But what they don't do necessarily, unless, I mean, Democrats certainly do, but sort of swing voters, voters who aren't paying as much attention, certainly MAGA voters, they are less interested in sort of the institutional problems of Trump weaponizing the Justice Department, going after his enemies.
14:30And they are more focused on just the fact that Donald Trump doesn't seem to be doing anything for them.
14:34It's all about him.
14:36Sarah, let me ask you this.
14:37We had so many conversations, I think, sharing exasperation that some of these folks sat on the sidelines.
14:45John Bolton wasn't one of them.
14:46I mean, he jumped into the arena and harshly criticized Donald Trump when all the generals described him as, quote, fascistic to the core and meeting the, quote, technical definition of a dictator.
14:58John Bolton, when asked about it, said essentially Trump is too stupid to be a fascist.
15:02What do you he didn't, though, go to the next logical step, in my view, and endorse Kamala Harris or Joe Biden before him, as Liz Cheney did.
15:12But what do you what do you make of these people without sort of natural constituencies?
15:17Tish James has sort of the thunderous, you know, palpable war of New York behind her, of the Democratic Party behind her.
15:24Jim Comey and Bolton are sort of constituent lists, lists that they don't have a constituency or really stakeholders.
15:32Do you think that makes any difference?
15:34Does that change how people see these indictments?
15:38You know, they do live in the sour spot of public opinion to some degree.
15:43I do think, however, people, as best as I can tell, seem to feel somewhat differently about James Comey than they do about John Bolton.
15:52And I think that the reason is, is that even though, you know, a lot of people look back at 2016 and they've got very negative feelings about some of the decisions that James Comey made in those moments,
16:01I also think that people have sort of softened on him.
16:06They sort of feel like, you know, maybe he made bad choices with imperfect information, but what Trump is doing going after him is wrong.
16:12Also, I think for people who are paying closer attention, they know that his daughter was one of the people that was fired for trying to just uphold the law.
16:21And I think that the way that he has pushed back specifically has sort of galvanized people.
16:27I mean, I've done a lot of live shows and a lot of focus groups since the Comey indictment came down.
16:30There's a lot of sympathy for for Comey.
16:33I think people feel slightly differently about John Bolton, in part because there's a strong memory of the fact that specifically around this book,
16:41when he was writing it, he chose to write the book instead of testify against Donald Trump when people felt like it would really matter.
16:48And so there's some frustration there.
16:51I will say one thing that the public is aware of, I think pretty clearly, is that John Bolton is being prosecuted for the very thing that Donald Trump was was doing himself,
17:04which was keeping all of these documents, sharing them with people, showing them around when he had all of those documents at Mar-a-Lago.
17:12And so I do think people, though, even if they are not directly sympathetic exactly to John Bolton,
17:17they do think that it is unfair for John Bolton to be prosecuted for a crime and go to jail for 10 years for something that Donald Trump absolutely did in plain sight,
17:28tried to cover up and then was reelected president subsequently.
17:31The Comey piece from Sarah is interesting, Mike, in that and I know you've been covering him longer than just about anybody.
17:41The the attack against Comey extends his daughter, Maureen Comey, who handled the Epstein case,
17:49but also his son in law, who was pushed out of that eastern district of Virginia.
17:54And a judge who was appointed by Donald Trump in his first term lamented the departure and the sort of going after targeting not just of Comey,
18:05but all of the sort of ripple effects effects of his that Donald Trump's political war with with Jim Comey and the family.
18:14Let me read this to you. This is from a Trump appointed judge.
18:17Although I will not comment on why Mr. Edwards, who is Jim Comey's son in law, is no longer employed by the Department of Justice.
18:24I do want to say how sad I am that I will not have the privilege of him appearing in my courtroom again.
18:30I'm even more disheartened to know that the Department of Justice and our nation will be deprived of his obvious talents and integrity going forward
18:38because his work has been truly exceptional in every way, as has been all the lawyers involved in this case.
18:44I leave you with a quote from our former great president, Dwight Eisenhower,
18:48who saved the world from authoritarianism when he served as the leader of the Allied forces in World War Two.
18:54Quote, freedom has its life in the hearts, the actions, the spirit of men.
18:59And so it must be daily earned and refreshed.
19:02Else like a flower cut from its life giving roots, it will wither and die.
19:07The whole Virginia story, the war on Comey, the purging of the U.S. attorney picked by Team Trump, Eric Siebert,
19:17the pushing out and the punishing of Comey's son-in-law seems to still be reverberating in this district.
19:23Yeah, I think that something we've seen and you see it particularly in the James case is that the powers of the Justice Department are being used here in in ways that are not about winning cases.
19:38So for like all of human history, for the sake of this discussion, my understanding was that the Justice Department was about bringing cases that they could win,
19:49that they could prove beyond a reasonable doubt and then could survive an appeal.
19:53It seems like that doesn't really matter as much to the department, especially if you look at like the James case.
20:01In a sense, there are different aspects to what's going on here in the ways that the specter of criminality is used.
20:12Trump understands better than anyone else what I call the specter of criminality.
20:17He used it against Hillary Clinton during the 2016 campaign.
20:21He understood it to the core, to his bones in 2017, in 2018, in 2019,
20:27when he had the special counsel's investigation and had the SDNY investigation into Michael Cohen.
20:33He certainly learned about it four times when he was indicted when he was out of office and had to sit through a criminal trial.
20:39And then he pledged vengeance when he came back.
20:42So in terms of what this retribution campaign means or what this vengeance campaign means and what it is and, you know,
20:52how it's going to play out, it does seem like they care less about winning than they do about using the powers of the department to hurt others.
21:03And that's just remarkable.
21:05A new court loss for President Trump.
21:07Another court now stopping his bid to try to seize powers and put troops in the streets,
21:11something that has been, of course, controversial with a lot of protest.
21:15Trump has been trying to claim the power to deploy troops.
21:18And he's done it under the authority of what he calls rebellion.
21:22That's even when governors oppose using their state's guard that way.
21:25And even when there's no apparent rebellion, not one that anyone has seen.
21:29Well, judges have rebuffed Trump.
21:31And this powerful appeals court is blocking Trump's plot to put the troops in Chicago as unlawful.
21:37The court telling Trump that he's wrong.
21:39He does not have this power.
21:40And when it comes to this factual question that I just mentioned of, well,
21:44does the rebellion clause kick in?
21:47This appeals court ruling that democracy and political opposition are not an organized rebellion,
21:54reinforcing Trump's prior losses in the lower courts on the abuse of this same type of power.
22:01So Trump is losing on the law.
22:03This is not rebellion, the court says.
22:06Now, the language and precedent are pretty clear there.
22:08So Trump's only legal path to still trying to get his troops back into the streets here
22:13would be to get the Supreme Court to bail him out, something they have done on other issues.
22:17So he's asking the high court to overrule this loss.
22:21Justice Barrett today did not order the type of stay that Trump wants.
22:26So instead, no emergency immediate action today, which means he is still on the losing side of this.
22:31Illinois officials can respond by the end of the day, Monday, the beginning of next week.
22:35If you are keeping track, this is another loss where Donald Trump has, of course,
22:41some agents and some troops in the streets and some level of concern, fear,
22:47and even among some people, a kind of despondent feeling that, well, I guess he's getting away with it all.
22:52And on some things, he is.
22:54But on this one, he's not.
22:56And so the political strategy of flooding the zone or taking the L's and hoping people just focus on other things
23:01is being tested because it turns out when people fight and the law holds,
23:07you can't just have endless troops in the streets and an endless sort of military vibe in our country.
23:14That's still not America.
23:16And then there's Trump's DOJ, which continues to grind through these indictments.
23:19They've now turned this week to a Trump official from the first term.
23:23And today, John Bolton, we saw walking in to court where he pled not guilty to these charges of mishandling classified documents
23:29stemming from the security access he had in Donald Trump's first term.
23:35The wider context is that Trump has been using the DOJ to go after individuals who all have one thing in common.
23:41I mean, here you have people from different parties, from different parts of the country, state and federal officials.
23:46What do they all have in common?
23:48They are currently on Donald Trump's enemies list.
23:50And while there are some differences in the Bolton case, and we covered that when the news broke,
23:55when you look at the focus on what are factually older incidents,
23:59you have to get your calendar out and go back years to find out what they're talking about with Comey and Bolton.
24:05Well, that adds to the skepticism, the questions raised about whether the Bolton case is also,
24:11even if the facts are stronger, part of Trump's vendetta.
24:14So here, take one outside view from Rupert Murdoch's media empire,
24:18which, as you know, includes Fox News, Wall Street Journal, and they've backed many Trump policies.
24:24And yet, in the journal here, they're saying, if you work for the president and he sours on you
24:28and you criticize him, you're not safe.
24:32There's little doubt, Rupert Murdoch's journal notes,
24:36that the underlying motivation for the Bolton prosecution is retribution.
24:41The calls are now coming from inside this conservative alliance.
24:49Fox News, you might say, is not as strong as the journal on that issue,
24:53about what the journal says is Donald Trump's unlawful prosecution of foes.
24:57But Fox News this week also joined all other major news outlets in resisting the Pentagon crackdown
25:04from one of their own former employees, Pete Hegseth, who had said,
25:08go with the autocratic plan.
25:11You have to submit everything for their authorization before you publish it.
25:16Fox said no.
25:18And the journal's saying no.
25:19And the judges are saying no.
25:21It's a lot of no's, even in an environment where people feel like Trump is getting away with stuff.
25:25And so we turn, as promised, immediately to James Carville, legendary Democratic strategist,
25:30Ragin' Cajun, guy with a pretty good view, heading into the weekend.
25:34Welcome back.
25:36Thank you.
25:36I'm delighted to be back.
25:37Always fun.
25:38Friday afternoon, my favorite time to be on the show.
25:40There we go.
25:41And I know on the East Coast people are having their drinks.
25:44Getting ready for dinner.
25:46Let's start with the losing because you have long said,
25:50if people don't know about it, it's not going to matter that much.
25:53And you've got to get the word out.
25:56What does it mean to you and to the party that I know you support in fighting Trump
26:00that I just went through a list of losses?
26:04And do you get that out to the country?
26:06Does that calcify the backbone going into these weekend protests?
26:10A couple of things that we're going to get out to the country
26:13because we're going to be stopped getting out of the country.
26:14First of all, the Democrats are not going to cave on this budget thing.
26:17Even if they wanted to, they couldn't.
26:19There is no appetite among Democratic voters to give in.
26:22I don't think there's any appetite among Democrats on the Hill,
26:26both the House and the Senate.
26:28Secondly, we're going to win in Virginia.
26:32And we're probably in our likelihood going to win in New Jersey.
26:35So that is going to change the entire dynamic of the coverage.
26:39And I mean, I'm sorry, Senator Thune or Speaker Johnson can go out
26:43and do all the talking points they want.
26:45You better prepare your caucus for a long haul
26:49because the Democrats feel they're winning this fight.
26:52They feel like they're not going to lose it.
26:54They feel like they're on the right side.
26:55And there is zero appetite to give in.
26:58If they wanted to, they couldn't
27:00because Democratic voters come out of the woodwork.
27:03You better brace yourself for what's going to happen in November
27:06because this is the first time that voters are going to go to post.
27:09And we've had special elections in every one.
27:12The Democrats have outperformed by over 15 points.
27:16So the moment of reckoning cometh, and it's not that far away.
27:22And now we have the AP University of Chicago poll has Trump at 37 percent.
27:27So I'm sorry, guys.
27:29You're hooked up to a loser, and we just have to keep making them pay.
27:32Well, you mentioned the focus on his enemies.
27:34John Bolton's a longtime conservative.
27:36He's now in the sauce with the rest of them.
27:38And this is what he says.
27:40I've become the latest target in the Trump weaponizing of the Justice Department.
27:45These charges are not just about his focus on me or his, he mentions his diaries,
27:50but the Trump effort to intimidate opponents,
27:53dissent and disagreement are foundational to America's constitutional system,
27:56vitally important to our freedom.
27:58James, we're in the early days of these cases.
28:00We don't know if Trump will win any of them,
28:02although they have a huge effect on people's lives, careers, money, even if Trump loses.
28:07What do you think of Bolton there?
28:10Well, I mean, Bolton got caught up in it.
28:13And, you know, if you get in, you know, your parents tell you and you hear it all the time,
28:17if you lie down with a skunk, you're going to smell bad.
28:21And John Bolton made a decision to lie down with a skunk.
28:24OK, if he understood at some point what he was doing, I suspect that he'll beat this.
28:30But all of the other people that were just doing their jobs that are being here.
28:35But to Trump, it's not about people getting ahead.
28:41It's not about people struggling and trying to pay bills.
28:44It's not about people wanting an education.
28:46It's about getting the people that he doesn't like to use the power of the government to get even with them.
28:53And this is not going to work.
28:55People want a presidency and they want a government about their lives.
28:59And they get they're not getting that at all.
29:00We get it about Trump's grievances and it's going to start paying up.
29:04They're going to start paying a price and we should be the beneficiaries of this.
29:08I want to get you on Zoran Mondami.
29:10We talked about him early on.
29:12You talked about his economic message.
29:14He squared off in this debate last night.
29:16You mentioned Virginia, the you know, the election we have is going to be Virginia.
29:21There's also New York City and there are going to be people looking to what this says about the party.
29:25Here he was last night.
29:28Well, I'm proud to say that I, yes, will freeze the rent for more than two million rent stabilized tenants.
29:32And I will also build 200,000 truly affordable homes across the five boroughs over the next 10 years.
29:38We will have dedicated teams of mental health outreach workers in the top hundred subway stations
29:44with the highest levels of the mental health crisis and homelessness.
29:47I'm proud to have a comprehensive plan to bring new ideas to this city.
29:51If you want more of the same vote for Andrew Cuomo.
29:55Is he the face of the Democratic Party if he wins this race?
29:59Well, I will say this.
30:00I talk communications at the college level of four years of community college, nine years of Tulane, four at LSU.
30:07If I could have one guess to demonstrate to my students how to communicate, I think I would pick him.
30:12That guy stays on message.
30:15You cannot you cannot get him out of talking about affordability.
30:19You notice what he was talking about.
30:21Rent stabilization, building more houses.
30:24He talks about transit.
30:26And it's just a real tutorial.
30:30And people keep saying, well, you said this about Palestine.
30:33You said this about this.
30:34And he just keeps bringing it back to it as a focal point.
30:37And Mondami does something that that is very important.
30:41He tells people, I see you.
30:43I see what your life is.
30:45Look, may he not be my ideological, you know, compadre or maybe some different.
30:53But I tell you what, that guy can communicate.
30:56Well, you're not known.
30:57Somebody can do that.
30:58You're not known as a young leftist.
31:00You know, who hadn't said stupid things in their 20s?
31:06OK.
31:06All right.
31:06Or done stupid things.
31:07And he's actually the more I see him when it started out, I'll be honest with you, I
31:14wasn't for him.
31:14And a lot of my friends who are my generation of my persuasion of politics said, James, you
31:19don't get it.
31:20This guy's got some talent.
31:22He's got some freshness about it.
31:23And he's kind of what the city needs.
31:26People out in the streets tomorrow.
31:27These are big No Kings protest plans.
31:30Your views on the power of this and how it may or may not affect the turnout and what the
31:35Democrats are trying to build.
31:37Well, I'm going to get up in the morning.
31:38I'm going to go to the supermarket and buy about four dozen sandwiches.
31:43And I'm going to bring them to the protesters.
31:45I think this is the most American patriotic thing that you can do.
31:50And I think this is a wonderful thing that people are sort of taking this in their own
31:55hands.
31:55I mean, will there be certain people with different ideological agendas there?
32:00Yeah, of course there will.
32:01But by and large, 90 percent of this are going to be people that are scared for their country,
32:06is scared to death about the future of the country.
32:09They're watching troops on our streets that, you know, this is the first time in our history
32:13where the payment on the debt is now higher than we spend on defense.
32:19And I wholeheartedly, and I promise you, Ari, I'm not just going to participate in this.
32:25I'm going to bring some food.
32:26I'm going to bring some stuff.
32:27I might even bring an ice chest full of adult beverages there for the people if they want
32:33to.
32:33But I think what these people are doing is a wonderful thing.
32:37And I'm going to find the one closest to me, and I'm going to join them in any way that
32:41I can.
32:43Two weeks ago, on September 30th, Colonel Douglas Krugman resigned his post after serving
32:5424 years in the Marine Corps under four different presidents.
32:58He said he could no longer take an oath to serve under a commander-in-chief who treats the
33:03Constitution like a suggestion.
33:06This president acts as though one election makes 236 years of constitutional order irrelevant.
33:16Instead of trying to work within the Constitution or to amend it, President Trump is testing
33:21how far he can ignore it.
33:24If voters and legislators cannot close the gaps in our laws to clarify the limits of presidential
33:29power, those who serve our government will continue to struggle.
33:34The next president of either party may continue us down this path toward collapse.
33:39Joining us now, former Colonel Doug Krugman.
33:44Thank you very much for joining us, sir.
33:46Thank you for having me today.
33:48Can you explain?
33:49You said you had your title scrapped when you resigned?
33:53If you want to retire and keep your rank for use in retirement on your ID card, on your
33:59tombstone, you have to serve either three years at that pay grade or receive a waiver from the
34:04Secretary of Navy or Secretary of Defense.
34:07Had I wanted to keep my rank, I would have had to keep serving until about this time next
34:10year.
34:11So I voluntarily accepted a symbolic demotion to Lieutenant Colonel in retirement.
34:15That's a lot.
34:16Tell me exactly why you felt you could not wait another year, you could not serve out
34:22the rest of your service term.
34:26Well, some people start with policy disagreements, but disagreeing with the policy of an administration
34:31is perfectly normal for military personnel, perfectly normal for civil servants.
34:35The elected president can implement his policies in according to the law, and we follow that
34:40whether we agree or disagree.
34:43Moral issues are more of a personal choice based on personal values.
34:47And as President Trump's first term ended, and then between his inauguration, his election
34:53and his inauguration for a second term, I saw a lot of actions and I heard a lot of rhetoric
34:58about things I did not consider moral.
35:00And frankly, I wasn't willing to risk my life anymore to serve and defend.
35:04And then finally, there's the more concerning threat, which has become much more obvious over
35:08the past few weeks, is about actual illegality and illegal orders to the military to conduct
35:14actions that they should not be conducting.
35:18We can talk about that aspect in a moment.
35:20I want to talk about the morality here.
35:22You think that there were clear lines drawn and then clear lines violated in regards to
35:29what is a morally right thing to do by a president of the United States.
35:35What bothered you so much?
35:39Morality is very much a personal choice.
35:41It's shaped by society.
35:42It's shaped by religious beliefs.
35:44But for me, the pardon on his first day of his second term of the January 6th rioters
35:49insurrectionists was a moral line for me.
35:52The oath is to defend the Constitution.
35:54That group of people tried to storm the Capitol.
35:57We're chanting for the death of elected leaders.
35:59And we're trying to keep our Congress from performing its constitutional role.
36:03So his choice on his inauguration day was a first step that week that led to me to decide
36:08by that Friday I was going to retire from the military this year.
36:11What about foreign aid?
36:14Foreign aid is, again, personally, I think charity begins at home.
36:20But I'd like to see our government echoing that charity.
36:22I've seen USAID do a lot of good work in a lot of places.
36:25And for a small fraction of the federal budget, saving lives around the world wasn't necessarily
36:30a problem for me.
36:32I thought that was the morally right thing to do.
36:34Obviously, those in power right now disagree.
36:36Again, morality is an individual choice.
36:39And they made their choice and they made it clear.
36:42I'm not entirely sure they did it in accordance with the law.
36:44That's another story.
36:46How do you see the president's desire to send in troops or the National Guard to American cities?
36:51I see that as, right now, a major cause of concern.
36:58If you listen to his remarks, you listen to his justifications behind those orders, we've
37:05had people, including federal judges, say the rhetoric, the written justifications do
37:09not match the actual reality.
37:11In the military, there's an assumption when you get orders, they're based on the best information
37:15available and that they're legal to execute.
37:17In this case, we have orders from the Secretary of Defense, approved by the president, that
37:24have been with governors objecting to them.
37:27And now federal judges and authorities saying, no, these should not be executed.
37:31In large part because the rhetoric, the justification is just so disconnected from the reality.
37:36It's not factual.
37:38That puts our military units in a really bad place.
37:40They now have one legal authority who they normally follow telling them to do something
37:43for reasons that may or may not be clear to those on the ground.
37:47And they have another lawful authority saying, no, don't do that.
37:50And the more we have situations like this where units have conflicting orders from two legal
37:54authorities, the more we're going to undermine our cohesion of our forces, unity of our forces
37:59and the strength of our country, because it's going to military officers aren't supposed
38:04to have to choose which set of orders to follow.
38:06It's supposed to be clear.
38:07And under this administration and their willingness to push the boundary of the law, that's no longer
38:10clear in some cases.
38:11Did you see politics infecting individual service members or infecting that cohesion, disrupting
38:19that cohesion in a way that it hadn't before over the last nine months?
38:26I can always speak to my own observations, my own experiences.
38:30And frankly, I have had no direct role in anything in Portland or Washington, D.C.
38:34And I was fairly removed from what happened in Los Angeles as well.
38:38So I really can't speak to any individual or personal reactions to those.
38:41Other than my own opinions on both morality and what I'm seeing from the courts on legality.
38:47You say that you've been a little bit bothered is not the right word, but you found it telling
38:53that people have called you courageous for posting this op ed for resigning your post.
39:00The fact I'm courageous for retiring and more so for speaking out is a concern because the
39:08First Amendment that many of us have swore our lives to defend and the president has sworn
39:12to hold as well guarantees us the right of free speech.
39:16And if our senior government officials have made very clear comments that indicate there's
39:23possible retribution for free speech, and that's spreading fear around our country.
39:27Fear is contagious.
39:28But also, I think courage is contagious.
39:31And right now, if there are those real threats of retribution, if there are at least real fears
39:35of retribution for the rhetoric, then I think right now we need more people to stand up and
39:40we need more people to make clear that this is not acceptable and that every American, whether
39:45you agree with them or not, has their right to peacefully execute their First Amendment rights,
39:49whether by speaking, whether by writing or going to a protest on Saturday.
39:53I do want to, just on that note, play a little bit of the president during his speech to military
40:00leaders, same day you resigned, same day he gave that speech, although yours was planned.
40:04Same day my retirement happened to take effect, I decided in January, the week of his inauguration.
40:08Yeah, sorry, my apologies on that.
40:11Let me just play a little bit of what he told generals.
40:14Only in recent decades, I've never walked into a room so silent before.
40:22This is very, don't laugh, don't laugh, you're not allowed to do that.
40:26You know what, just have a good time.
40:28And if you want to applaud, you applaud.
40:30And if you want to do anything you want, you can do anything you want.
40:34And if you don't like what I'm saying, you can leave the room.
40:36Of course, there goes your rank, there goes your future.
40:39I want to play one other one.
40:41And this is the one, and I'm sorry I wasn't clear to the control room, I want to play the
40:44one about Donald Trump talking about the invasion from within.
40:50Only in recent decades did politicians somehow come to believe that our job is to police the
40:55far reaches of Kenya and Somalia, while America is under invasion from within.
41:01We're under invasion from within.
41:04No different than a foreign enemy, but more difficult in many ways,
41:10because they don't wear uniforms.
41:12At least when they're wearing a uniform, you can take them out.
41:15These people don't have uniforms.
41:17But we are under invasion from within.
41:19We're stopping it very quickly.
41:22Do you think that we're under invasion from within?
41:24Do you see what's happening on American streets as insurrection?
41:28There have been limited cases of small-scale violence, which most people peacefully protesting
41:36the government also abhor and oppose.
41:38I think President Trump said a lot of things in that speech that were questionable.
41:44I'll use a couple lines he has used to justify killing people.
41:48Talking about boats from Venezuela, he said twice, every boat kills about 25,000 people.
41:54And then he talked about stacked up with bags of white powder.
41:57That's mostly fentanyl and other drugs, too.
42:00There is absolutely no way any boat has killed, any single boat has killed 25,000 people.
42:06And those stacks of white powder, according to his own Coast Guard seizures, according to his DEA,
42:12and according to everybody else, they're not fentanyl really at all.
42:16They're cocaine.
42:17So if he thinks blowing up boatloads of cocaine is going to protect the real threat to American people,
42:23I think we had 80,000 Americans die of drug-related deaths last year, more than half because of fentanyl.
42:28There's just no connection to reality.
42:31Yeah, and a lot of them, according to the reporting and the accounting from the government,
42:36are coming in through the ports, the ports of entry, the legal ports of entry.
42:41Thank you so much.
42:42Doug Krugman, former colonel, served 24 years in the United States Marine Corps.
42:47I appreciate your service, sir, and thank you very much for coming on and telling us your story.
42:53Thank you for your time.
43:12Thank you.
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