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Why the Bolton indictment is different from the Comey & James indictments - YouTube
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00:00
It is day 270 of the second Trump administration.
00:03
Former Trump official and outspoken Trump critic John Bolton
00:06
has officially been indicted by a grand jury.
00:09
Bolton is facing 18 separate counts,
00:12
all related to retaining or transmitting classified information.
00:16
Two senior federal law enforcement sources tell NBC News
00:19
that Bolton is expected to surrender to authorities tomorrow
00:22
and will have an initial court appearance on the same day.
00:25
He served as Trump's national security advisor
00:28
for part of his first term,
00:29
but the president quickly turned on Bolton
00:32
because of his 2020 book
00:34
where he harshly criticized his former boss.
00:37
Here's how Trump reacted to the news earlier today.
00:39
Watch.
00:42
John Bolton was just indicted by a grand jury in Maryland.
00:44
Do you have a reaction to that?
00:45
I didn't know that.
00:46
You tell me for the first time,
00:48
but I think he's, you know, a bad person.
00:50
I think he's a bad guy.
00:53
Yeah, he's a bad guy.
00:55
He's too bad, but it's the way it goes.
00:57
That's the way it goes, right?
00:59
That's the way it goes.
01:00
Will I what?
01:01
Have you reviewed the case against him?
01:02
No, I haven't.
01:03
I haven't.
01:04
But I just think he's a bad person.
01:06
In a statement, Bolton denied doing anything illegal
01:09
and said the following.
01:10
When my email was hacked in 2021,
01:13
the FBI was made fully aware.
01:15
In four years of the prior administration,
01:17
after these reviews, no charges were ever filed.
01:21
Then came Trump, too,
01:22
who embodies what Joseph Stalin's head of secret police once said,
01:26
quote,
01:27
you show me the man and I'll show you the crime, end quote.
01:32
These charges are not just about his focus on me or my diaries,
01:36
but his intensive effort to intimidate his opponents,
01:40
to ensure that he alone determines what is said about his conduct.
01:44
Dissent and disagreement are foundational to America's constitutional system
01:49
and vitally important to our freedom.
01:52
That's the end of the quote.
01:53
Bolton is the third outspoken Trump critic to be indicted over the last few weeks,
01:58
along, of course, with former FBI Director Jim Comey
02:00
and New York Attorney General Letitia James.
02:03
Meanwhile, in D.C., the Senate took another failed vote
02:06
on a clean funding bill to reopen the government.
02:09
That means in about one hour, we're going to begin day 17 of this shutdown.
02:15
With that, let's get smarter.
02:16
With the help of our lead-off panel this evening,
02:18
Barb McQuade is here, veteran federal prosecutor
02:20
and former U.S. attorney for the Eastern District of Michigan.
02:24
Jeff Mason joins us, White House correspondent for Reuters.
02:27
And Jonathan Cohn, senior writer for The Bulwark.
02:29
He is also author of the book,
02:31
The Ten-Year War, Obamacare,
02:33
and the Unfinished Crusade for Universal Coverage.
02:37
Barb, break down this indictment for us.
02:39
I mean, Donald Trump's been complaining about John Bolton's mustache
02:42
since the day they met,
02:43
but to now be out there just saying he's a bad guy,
02:47
you get what you get, this is serious.
02:50
Yes.
02:51
You know, President Trump's comments about someone being a bad guy
02:55
is really irrelevant to whether they're charged with a crime
02:59
because that's based on conduct.
03:00
But I will say, Stephanie, that in stark contrast
03:03
as to the indictments against Jim Comey and Letitia James,
03:06
this one looks like some very serious alleged misconduct.
03:10
Violations of the Espionage Act, 18 counts,
03:13
each of which brings a 10-year potential maximum sentence
03:17
that could be stacked.
03:18
And it alleges that he transmitted these classified information
03:23
to family members via email,
03:27
referring to them as diary entries,
03:30
apparently for use in his upcoming memoir,
03:33
The Room Where It Happened.
03:35
And according to the indictment,
03:36
it alleges that there's some very serious national defense information
03:40
protected at the top-secret level that he communicated.
03:43
If the allegations in this indictment are true,
03:46
and, you know, this is some professional work here.
03:48
This quotes emails.
03:50
This is not the kind of bare-bones indictment we saw
03:52
in the last couple of weeks.
03:54
If these allegations are true, these are some serious charges.
03:58
But the FBI has been investigating Bolton for years,
04:00
like since the Biden administration.
04:02
That's different than what we're seeing with Tish James and Jim Comey, Barb.
04:07
Yeah, you know, we don't know all the facts here,
04:09
but I recall that there was some reporting
04:11
that occurred earlier this year
04:13
that we got a tip from an ally
04:16
about this hack by the Iranian government
04:20
into John Bolton's email.
04:22
And that is what sort of reopened this whole episode.
04:25
There had been an investigation
04:26
when he submitted his manuscript for pre-publication review.
04:30
And at that time, he agreed that he would return to the government
04:33
any classified information that he may have possessed.
04:36
But when that hack occurred,
04:39
apparently that is when the government learned
04:41
that Bolton had been communicating,
04:44
transmitting to these family members
04:45
who were helping him with his book,
04:47
classified information to which they were not entitled.
04:50
That led to the execution of that search warrant this summer,
04:53
whereupon they found paper copies
04:56
and electronic copies of that same classified information
05:00
that he claimed to have returned as part of that settlement.
05:03
But Jeff, give us a history lesson,
05:05
because Donald Trump and John Bolton
05:07
have a complicated history.
05:09
He was part of the first Trump administration.
05:12
How exactly did we get here?
05:15
Oh, yeah, he was definitely part
05:17
of the first Trump administration.
05:18
He was his national security advisor.
05:19
I remember traveling with him together for one of the summits
05:23
that President Trump held with North Korean leader Kim Jong-un.
05:27
He was a very powerful member
05:29
of President Trump's national security staff.
05:33
And President Trump would sometimes give him a hard time
05:36
and talk about how John Bolton was more
05:39
to the right of him on certain issues,
05:42
including Iran and other foreign policy issues
05:46
that were especially important or things that were especially passion projects,
05:51
I think you could say, for John Bolton.
05:53
But he hired him to be his national security advisor.
05:56
He went through multiple national security advisors, it's fair to say.
06:00
But Bolton was absolutely in his inner circle,
06:04
and then he turned on him.
06:05
And he turned on him in a pretty massive way with the book that Barb was just referencing.
06:12
And that, of course, upset Trump.
06:14
And he has had him in his sights ever since.
06:17
Not your average passion project, it's fair to say.
06:20
Barb, the president is now throwing out new names as targets.
06:23
Jack Smith, Lisa Monaco.
06:26
What are you looking at next?
06:27
Well, we know now from what we've seen in the past couple of weeks
06:34
that when Donald Trump makes these demands of charges against his perceived enemies,
06:39
sometimes those charges follow.
06:41
What is not clear at all, however, is what crimes these people may have committed.
06:46
It seems that Donald Trump is interested solely in payback
06:49
because these are people who presided over charges against him.
06:53
So, you know, Jack Smith was the special counsel,
06:55
and Lisa Monaco was the deputy attorney general at the time.
06:59
Andrew Wiseman was just somebody who worked on Robert Mueller's team.
07:02
And so there's no suggestion of any criminal conduct by any of these people.
07:08
And so targeting individuals because they're bad people
07:11
or because you want to seek payback
07:12
is a really inappropriate use of the Justice Department.
07:15
So I don't know that prosecutors are going to find any crimes
07:18
that they can charge these people with.
07:20
But if they do, I think they will be highly suspect
07:23
along the lines of the Jim Comey and Letitia James indictments.
07:26
All right, Jonathan, new but somewhat related topic.
07:29
The Wall Street Journal is reporting that the White House is planning to install
07:33
true Trump loyalists in the IRS criminal unit for the not sole purpose,
07:40
but one of the reasons is to target left-leaning groups.
07:44
What do you make of this?
07:45
It sounds very familiar.
07:48
And, you know, we've been hearing rumors about this and reports.
07:51
And I think Jeff and his team at Reuters did a story a week ago
07:53
about targeting these left-wing groups.
07:56
And when I hear this, my mind immediately went back to Watergate, actually.
08:01
You know, everybody remembers that there was bugging.
08:03
You know, that was, you know, they were bugging
08:04
the Democratic headquarters back then.
08:06
But, you know, there were many other crimes involved with Watergate.
08:09
And one of the big ones was Nixon and his henchmen sending a list of enemies
08:13
over to the IRS and asking them to go investigate.
08:16
I mean, that was a big—that was one of the—it was part of the articles
08:19
of impeachment, one of the things that led to his resignation.
08:22
Now, of course, that was a very different time because at that time
08:26
when that list came over to the IRS, the people—they didn't act on it.
08:30
And, in fact, then eventually, you know, Republican members of Congress
08:33
stood up and said, this is one of the reasons, Mr. President,
08:35
you're going to lose an impeachment vote.
08:37
You need to resign.
08:39
Now we're talking about him putting his henchmen in an IRS.
08:43
So if he sends that list over, I think there's a really good chance
08:45
they actually do prosecute.
08:47
And we see this play out exactly the way we stopped it from playing out in the 1970s.
08:52
The difference between then and now?
08:55
Shame.
08:56
All right, Jeff, let's talk about the shutdown.
08:57
Because in an interview with our colleague Ali Vitale,
09:00
Senate Majority Leader John Thune revealed that he has offered to guarantee Democrats
09:05
a vote on ACA subsidies in exchange for reopening the government.
09:10
Some Democrats are dismissing this, saying they do not trust Republicans.
09:14
They're going to hold up their end of this deal.
09:16
But this, to me, seems like the first sign of some possible movement.
09:20
Is it?
09:22
Yes.
09:23
I mean, I think it's absolutely a sign of some possible movement.
09:26
That doesn't mean it's going to get there.
09:28
It doesn't mean it's going to happen.
09:29
And I think I always go back, as we're talking about the shutdown, to who or on whom the
09:36
American public is placing blame.
09:38
So far, Democrats are feeling their oats and feeling like they're not getting a lot of
09:45
blame for this.
09:46
Republicans, of course, are also—I mean, both sides are blaming the other.
09:49
But the polls, at least the Reuters-Ipsos polls that came out just last week, say that the
09:54
public so far is blaming both sides.
09:55
Until that shifts, you're not going to have one side decide to give up.
10:04
And the Democrats so far are certainly not giving up.
10:07
That said, though, to your initial question, Steph, what they want is for what they, being
10:12
the Democrats, want is to have an opportunity to get these subsidies extended.
10:17
And the fact that the Republican leader in the Senate is offering them that potential
10:21
opportunity, at least what he says is a vote, whether or not—I mean, he said he
10:25
can't guarantee where that vote would go.
10:28
That is, at least in some ways, an olive branch.
10:31
And there haven't been that many olive branches in the last several days.
10:34
There are a lot of Republicans saying no way should these subsidies be extended.
10:38
They say they were one-time temporary subsidies, only put in place during a time of COVID.
10:43
That time has passed.
10:45
And Democrats aren't fighting, honestly.
10:47
But, Jonathan, it was like yesterday you read my mind, because you wrote specifically
10:52
about how this fight feels familiar with Republicans, again, taking on the Affordable Care Act.
10:58
Can you explain why this is so popular despite these years of attacks?
11:02
Yeah, well, you know, we've gone through the regular cycle of Republican attacks on this,
11:09
and they always come back to this argument that Obamacare is terrible.
11:12
It's made the health care system a disaster.
11:15
Nobody likes it, and we shouldn't be throwing more money at it.
11:18
And that's basically—you know, that was the argument they made back in 2017 when they
11:22
tried to repeal it.
11:24
And, you know, I think they feel like, OK, there are lots of people, if you ask them,
11:28
their Obamacare insurance, you know, it's got a big deductible.
11:30
It's not ideal.
11:31
No one ever said it was.
11:33
But, you know, we went from 45 million people with no insurance down to 20 million now—25
11:39
million now, which is a massive reduction.
11:41
Lots of people are saving money.
11:43
People with preexisting conditions can get health care.
11:45
And that is actually really popular.
11:48
And every time the Republicans try to change it, people say, oh, great, you're going to make
11:52
it better.
11:53
And then it just—no, no, they're not going to make it more generous.
11:56
They're not going to get more people insurance.
11:57
What they actually want to do is take away money, take away insurance from people.
12:01
And then everyone says, wait a minute, that sounds horrible.
12:03
That's not what I want.
12:05
And, yeah, they seem determined to sort of rediscover this again.
12:09
And I think that's totally related to what we were just talking about, which is the fact
12:12
that Democrats are looking around and like, wait, everybody agrees with us.
12:16
And you see Republicans trying out these arguments that they're either not true or they
12:20
don't resonate, changing their positions.
12:22
And that, to me, is the sign of, you know, the Democrats, they have a coherent argument.
12:27
They know the public agrees with them.
12:29
And Republicans are the ones who are flailing and looking for a way out.
12:31
It's on the other side of the mic when they're out.
12:49
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