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00:00Hi Bethany, I'm really glad to have you here with us.
00:07Can you please introduce yourself?
00:09You're from London and you're going to talk about verticals with us.
00:13Yeah, hello, it's nice to meet you.
00:15I'm in London, I'm in England.
00:17It's lovely, it's very rainy.
00:18I work for Seastar Productions.
00:20We are one of the UK's leading production companies for vertical dramas.
00:25It's what we specialize in, it's what we do really well.
00:27I do a lot of stuff at Seastar, but my main focus is marketing and the creative lead side of things.
00:35I do a lot of client-facing things.
00:37If you've spoken to anyone over the info email, it's been me.
00:42I do a lot of our LinkedIn posts, our Instagram posts.
00:46I post on TikTok, I write blogs for us.
00:48I also update our website.
00:51I do client meetings regarding production, licensing.
00:54Whatever you need is what I do at Seastar, and I really enjoy it.
00:57It's a lot of different avenues of things, and I've got a really good scope of the vertical drama industry in the UK.
01:03So I'm really enjoying it.
01:05And what is the vision of your company yourself about verticals and what we call tranchu on our website?
01:13Where do you think it's going, and where do you want to take it, actually?
01:19That's also the big question.
01:21I think for us, we really enjoy the format, the original sort of microdrama format.
01:26So we really enjoy the big stories, the big storylines, the fast shooting pace, the challenges that come with it.
01:32That's something that we do really well.
01:33But for us, the bigger picture is to have bigger stories and bigger opportunities within the vertical drama world.
01:41And I think that's something that in the UK that we can really explore, as we have such a large TV industry and such a large film industry and all these media giants in the UK.
01:50And it's just about getting them to take notice so then we can start evolving the industry.
01:54And we're very excited about it.
01:55And I think the main ways that we really want to start evolving is going to be with new stories, new genres, and just pushing the format forward to as much as it can be.
02:05And I think that's what a lot of creatives want in the vertical drama world.
02:08And I think it's also what a lot of the writers and the audience want as well.
02:11They want to see more.
02:13So we're just going to want to get there.
02:16That's great.
02:17And also, so you're working for an audience.
02:21And that's what you're trying to do to, of course, attract people and to look for what's best.
02:28But what about the brands and what about the business model?
02:32How do you work on that?
02:33And how do you attract the brands to also be part of the business model of this new narrative, this new format?
02:40Because it's very different from TV shows, from cinema.
02:44So how do you build that with them?
02:46And how do you explain how it works?
02:48Because, of course, creation and fiction needs money.
02:52So how do you attract the brands to, let's say, sustain this business model?
02:58I think what's really important is to understand how the microdrama world works and how it makes money and what it's really good at.
03:05So what it doesn't do, its end goal isn't to be in the cinema.
03:08Its end goal isn't to be on the watertight time for television.
03:11So I think brands are probably the next move to bump the microdrama industry forward.
03:17And I think what we need to realise as, like, professionals working in the vertical space is that brands do marketing well.
03:24And they have whole departments of marketing that make campaigns and make vertical shoots and make all this stuff.
03:29But what they're not doing really well is vertical shoots and storytelling.
03:32And I think that's really the place where vertical dramas can thrive, because we have all of these fun titles and all these amazing large stories.
03:40But at the heart of them, there's creatives there who can make vertical storytelling and really fast paced story points work really well.
03:47And I think what would be really good for brands is to find a brand whose vision and whose sort of ethos aligns with the original storytelling of vertical dramas.
03:57So maybe something like a gaming app or like, I don't know, something very fast paced, like just and just to sort of almost borrow the genres or borrow some of the tropes and some of the genres from vertical dramas to get people watching, then add the brand's twist.
04:11I think what's really important to know is that with marketing, people don't like it when they're being sold to, when they're very clearly being sold to, but people don't mind being sold to if they don't know.
04:21And I think what vertical dramas do really well is just tell a story.
04:23So if we can tell a story, but get that brand's voice behind it, that is going to be really, yeah, really exciting.
04:30So what you're saying is that somehow it would be very immersive marketing where it would be part of the storytelling of the vertical.
04:40That's what you're saying?
04:42Yeah, for sure. I mean, there's different ways you could do it.
04:46I mean, you could work, we could work directly with a brand or we could have branded content inside of one of our verticals on a platform.
04:53But I think working directly with a brand to align their vision and to give them something that isn't just marketing, but it's a story and it gives people, like founder stories with brands are really important and people love to see the behind the scenes and who's made it and who's all these stories.
05:07So if you can do that for them, but do it and then package it in such a way of like, this is a TV show, but you can watch it in one minute, like, I feel like that would be really successful.
05:16And I think one common point between marketing and verticals is emotion, right?
05:22Because verticals, it's really about emotions, about driving people with their inner fears or excitement or so it's a lot about that.
05:32So I think both could find this common ground.
05:35Yeah, absolutely. 100%. I think that's the main thing isn't like people will say what makes a story work and it's all, it's emotion.
05:42It's a script and it's emotion. And it doesn't matter if you're doing that for a vertical drama app or if you're doing that for a brand, if you can make people feel something, that's the main thing.
05:49And I think also like it's such a, with the platforms, we're making all these amazing, like incredibly fun stories, but with the brands, it also will give creators an opportunity to sort of make different stories and to make more emotionally led stories and to have the safety to create with, within a brand.
06:07And within these, if you find someone that aligns with you, you have the safety to create within their voice, but also to make it within this format that you're really familiar in and that is really exciting and new.
06:19That's very interesting. And about this topic, how do you see the future of Tuanzhou and verticals in terms of narratives and stories?
06:29Because you're talking about large stories. So maybe you can dip that a bit more into that.
06:34So what do you call large and, you know, what would be a vision about what do you want to produce?
06:40What is the goal and what do you think is going to be interesting for UK, but also maybe for Europe?
06:45Because we see that, of course, Tuanzhou is coming from Asia.
06:49We have a lot of also verticals in the US and it's really expanding throughout Europe.
06:55So how do you think it's going to be different in Europe?
06:59Maybe how do you want to drive things?
07:01Do you think it's going to be, you know, very worldwide spreading?
07:06How do you think it needs to be adapted or particular or specific?
07:10Yeah, I would love to hear more about that.
07:12Yeah, I think in China, it's sort of if you look at how China's the like the evolution of verticals have evolved in China and the different genres they have there, that's a really good indicator to how things are going to go in the UK and in Europe.
07:26But you have to think about the sort of the genres that we enjoy, like as like we enjoy the UK and you enjoy over there.
07:33So like in China, they have a lot of like fantasy and a lot of like, like, like very large and fantastical storylines because it's all very like that works for that audience.
07:44Whereas in the UK, I can see sort of like a like a true crime, like a British crime, a gritty, like a Sherlock Holmes sort of thing.
07:50You know what I mean?
07:51Or like a classic comedy.
07:53Like I don't know if you've heard of Gavin and Stacey, but that is huge in the UK.
07:57It's like a British sitcom and it's, it was, it's basically been going, it's like 20, they've done like millions of reunions.
08:03Everyone wants it to come back.
08:04But if you can do that on the phone and get people coming back to a comedy series, that'll be brilliant.
08:10I also think in Europe, I think these genres, it's the genres that people enjoy.
08:14And essentially it's, I think with the UK, the main audience is mainly people who would watch things like soap operas and things and like those tropes and the hidden identity tropes and things like that that would enjoy.
08:25So I think as much as we say like the British, like, have I just said like the British crime, like the hot, the hot, the comedy, I think the natural progression for microdramas in the UK and in Europe has to go the same way that China has done.
08:37So we have to cater for the large audiences and for the apps because our platform might be based in like France, but the audience is going to be still global, global microdrama audience.
08:49or, and these people, like the audiences, they really enjoy these, like these big romantic, like, like dramatic stories.
08:59So I think what's going to be really important to just expand the genre slowly but surely is to take the tropes that work in these dramas,
09:05but put them into things like horrors and comedies and fantasies and like period pieces and all of that, just slowly put them into different genres and then take bits away, bring new things in.
09:18And then eventually the cycle will just keep repeating itself until we can expand further and further out, which is, yeah, that's how I see the genre expansion going, essentially.
09:27Yes, because I do agree with you that we see many tropes right now and stereotyped stories.
09:35So maybe there is a, you know, a time when we need also to be more creative, maybe to add more, more different kinds of stories, more genres.
09:45And I think also UK is good for that because you also have more, let's say, I mean, darker stories, maybe a different type of humor.
09:54Maybe that's also what we have in different countries in Europe.
09:57So I think it's also good to have, let's say, more production companies from different areas of the world to also, let's say, expand and also propose different programs for, for the audience.
10:10Yeah, for sure. Because I think like a lot of microdramas, especially in like in the UK, we have like, like I said, it's everyone likes the ones that mimic the soap operas.
10:20Then in places like Brazil, you have the ones that mimic like telenovas.
10:24And then in China, you have the ones that mimic their popular shows.
10:27It's like, but then if you had a platform in like, I'm doing a, I'm doing a keynote speak in Sweden.
10:33If someone could make a microdrama that based on a genre that was really popular in Sweden to make their own app, there's of course going to be an audience for it.
10:41And because it's microdrama, worldwide, people are going to watch it because it's another expansion of the genre.
10:46So I think there's really no room, like not to grow with microdramas.
10:51I think if you're making them now, that's the main thing.
10:53That's the best thing you can be doing.
10:54So you're giving a speech in Sweden.
11:00So I would love to hear a bit more about also your vision.
11:04I'm not asking you, of course, to give any secrets because that's going to be very special.
11:10And maybe you can tell us more about it when you've done this speech and also come back with the feedback.
11:17But would love to know more about your highlights and maybe the key messages that you want to send also to a country
11:24where I guess it's quite new, right?
11:27Yeah, it's very new.
11:28So I was talking with the guy who runs it and he was saying how it's very new and he runs these things for students and for filmmakers
11:35and just like basically just for new opportunities.
11:38And he found microdramas and was like, oh my goodness, let's see how we can go.
11:41But the main thing I'm going to be doing in Sweden is sort of explaining the industry, explaining how it works in the UK and in Europe,
11:48because I think I have quite a good foot in there, in the door there.
11:53And also just talking about writing and genres, how we just spoke about then and how to write for a vertical.
11:58Also how to like pitch for verticals, what we do in the UK, like the crew, the sort of expectations that come with shooting as well.
12:05It's basically just going to be a deep dive into verticals.
12:09I always have quite fun, interactive things planned.
12:11Like, is this a vertical drama title or is it a made up center?
12:15Like, you know, because the titles are so insane sometimes.
12:18We're going to have some interactive bits and bobs.
12:20But yeah, I'm very excited.
12:21Yes, and I understand that for you, the format and the immersive and interactive part is very important.
12:29That's also how you see things about verticals.
12:31So that also maybe storytelling is about having the audience completely involved in the story.
12:39That's it.
12:39So maybe also through gaming, these kind of things.
12:43Yeah, I think that's 100% because I think with television and with typical, like television and film,
12:50you're sat there, you're watching it, that's it, attention on there.
12:52But with microdramas, who's not to say, like, as you just said, you could be interactive with it.
12:56You could control the way the stories go.
12:57You can treat it almost like a game, but it's a narrative for you.
13:01So yeah, I think there's definitely scope for that as well.
13:03So yeah.
13:05So shorter, but with an audience that's a lot more active.
13:09That's it, yeah.
13:10Like just sitting on the sofa and watching the scrolling and watching the phone, but really being part of the story.
13:17That's it.
13:18And I think they have to be active.
13:19I think with television, you can very mindlessly watch television.
13:22Like you can have two screens in front of you and your TV show could be on.
13:26But when you're on your phone, like so many screens are vying for your attention.
13:29When you're on your phone and you're choosing to scroll up instead of go to TikTok or go to somewhere else,
13:34that's a really powerful thing.
13:35And I think if you can storytell there really well, then that's amazing.
13:39And that's really what we need to be looking for.
13:43We love that.
13:44And what about the future and the perspectives for your prediction company, but also for your role?
13:55Okay.
13:55What are the next plans and what are the next steps?
13:57Yeah, I think for Seastar, we're just really, we're so passionate about storytelling and we love, we love our crew.
14:05We love shooting.
14:06It's like what we love to do.
14:07Like it doesn't feel like work for us.
14:08It's just like an amazing thing that we get to do every day.
14:11So I think for us, it was just amazing just to keep shooting, keep expanding these stories and just to keep finding new ways that we can shoot.
14:18And just to really be, we really want to be the leaders in the UK.
14:22And not because we want to say like, oh, we're the leaders, but just so that we can be the ones to like make the change.
14:29And we can be the ones to force things forward because we know we want to and we know how, like we have ideas and how to do it.
14:34So I think we really want to be seen as leaders and just to be creative and just keep creating.
14:39That's the main vision for us.
14:40And I think for my goal personally with microdramas, I think there is a big gap in marketing and there's a big gap in really pushing out these genres and their formats, their full potential.
14:53I think like Facebook is always a very important driver when it comes to microdramas and YouTube as well.
14:58Um, but things like LinkedIn and Instagram and TikTok are only just starting to be utilised.
15:04Obviously TikTok is being utilised, but like in the UK, like you get a casual, like a couple of adverts or you get a couple of episodes, but there's no marketing really around it unless you look at the giants like real short.
15:16So I think for production companies, there's such a big scope there to start marketing yourselves and to start really saying like, this is what we do and we do it well.
15:24And like, that's why I'm really excited to work with Seastar because like our founder, Dennis is so passionate about that.
15:29He's like, just push us forward.
15:30He really trusts me and I really admire that trust that we have.
15:32And it's really nice to be a part of a company with so much like, just do it.
15:36He's like, honestly, just do it.
15:38He's like, if it looks like it's going to go well and you're like, you believe in it, I trust you and just do it.
15:41And that is really nice.
15:42It's why I'm talking to you today as well, because I was like, I'm going to set up this interview and it's going to be really good.
15:46And he was like, yeah, do it.
15:49So it's great.
15:49And I'm really glad because, yeah, I can really feel how passionate you are and it's great.
15:54We really love that at Duanju.fr.
15:59So also another thing that I hear from you is that there is a whole ecosystem around the verticals and around Duanjus.
16:07Because, of course, there is social media, marketing.
16:09We talked about that, the brands, of course, because this would be part of a business model type.
16:14But also, you know, there are also, of course, television, broadcasting, cinema.
16:21So all of that would need to be articulated.
16:23So what you told me is that for you, of course, are very different because not the same kind of habit, not the same kind of screen.
16:32But how do you see also the next partnership?
16:34And what do you think is important to build in this ecosystem around verticals?
16:40Is this only social media?
16:41Is it more brands?
16:43Is it more also having some pathways between cinema and TV or not at all?
16:50I mean, what do you think?
16:52I think pathways between TV and cinema is quite an interesting thing.
16:56I think what needs to happen there is media giants, especially in the UK, like BBC and Channel 4, they need to take the first step in the initiative to make these vertical first platforms.
17:06But I think marketing wise, the way to do it would probably...
17:10Basically, the thing that I saw when I came first into microdramas is a lot of people want to get into it and they want to know more about it, but they don't know anything.
17:18There's a couple of thought leaders on LinkedIn and there's a couple of people who are really leading the charge.
17:23But that's it and that's where you get all of your information from.
17:26There's no sort of...
17:27There's no wider knowledge.
17:30Like with television and with film, we have so much knowledge.
17:32But with microdramas, it's like just getting fed bits and bits of information from different big leaders in the microdrama world.
17:40So I think what's really powerful for brands is to...
17:42And for people, not brands, but production companies and brands working within the microdrama space.
17:46It's just like debunk some of the myths and just like talk to people and make connections
17:51and talk about how, like what it is to be in the microdrama world.
17:57I think that is the most powerful thing you can do.
17:59Because even I tell people my job now, like my friends, and they're like, what's a microdrama?
18:02And I'm like, okay.
18:03And then you do the whole thing.
18:04But people in the industry don't know what a microdrama is.
18:07So think of how powerful it would be to say that and get that vestige out to the right people.
18:12That's the main thing.
18:13Yeah, and I think you told me about this need to demystify.
18:17So what are the myths around this vertical, let's say, narrative and format that you think is stereotyped
18:27and maybe needs to be rethought or maybe send new messages?
18:34I think one that I see a lot is like that the production value isn't very good.
18:39Like the productions are really, then like, they're not very good.
18:42They're very like subpar.
18:43They're not as good as television.
18:44And with Seastar, that's definitely not the case.
18:46Like we use all industry standard crew, like industry standard crew, industry standard kit.
18:51We have professional crew that have come from high end TV and features.
18:55And they treat the microdramas and the vertical drama world like it's a feature film
18:59or like it's a high television shoot.
19:01Like, and that really reflects in our dramas.
19:03And I think that's such a big thing in the industry.
19:06It's like, it's really quick.
19:07It's like, everything's really fast.
19:09It's really quick turnaround to the production value isn't as great.
19:11And it's like, no, the turnaround is really fast and the shooting is really quick.
19:16But we do it really well.
19:17And that's, that's one of the main thing.
19:20Yeah, and the idea, I guess, is to be fast and also to improve the quality.
19:24Of course, it's a start.
19:25And first, you need to prove that, you know, you can build something.
19:29Also, you need to have a financial model that works.
19:31So, first, you need to convince also, let's say, people behind who give the money to produce
19:37first.
19:37But I think maybe in the years to come, the idea is also to improve quality, to improve
19:41the processes, to improve also the teams.
19:45Even though I understand that more and more talented people go to this area.
19:49And what's, of course, was seen as something that was, let's say, a bit, let's say, under
19:55and below cinema and the production is really becoming viral and global and better, better
20:04and better, improving.
20:05Yeah.
20:06I think that's, yeah, I think you're right there.
20:08And I think it's only going to grow.
20:10And I think if you're in it from the start and you're treating it, I think, like, we know
20:15it's going to grow and it's going to go up and up and up.
20:17And I think if you're a production company or if you're working in it and you're doing
20:20the right practices from the start, you can only move with it.
20:23Whereas if you're stuck doing, like, subpar production processes and you're not shooting,
20:29like, to start up to standard, you're just going to fall off of it because it needs to
20:33grow in the right way.
20:34And it will grow in the right way.
20:36I'm sure of that.
20:38And final words, Bethany, I would love to know how you would convince people to join
20:44the teams.
20:45Of course, not, maybe not your production company, but also maybe students, talented people,
20:52writers, brands, you know, anyone who wants to try verticals in their work environment
20:58or just the audience.
21:00How would you convince them that, you know, maybe it's something to try that's, you know,
21:04it's entertaining?
21:07I would say for professionals and for brands, like, vertical dramas, there is no limit.
21:13Like, you can think as big as you want and it can be made to happen.
21:17And I'd say really run with that.
21:18Whenever I speak to writers and they're like, what would you recommend?
21:21I'm like, just don't, if you think, oh, is that a bit too much?
21:24It's not.
21:25And just go for it, like, literally just go for it because it's such a fun, it's almost
21:28like, because the stories are so big and it allows for so much storytelling and so much
21:33room for adventure and for fun things to happen.
21:36You can really let yourself go with it and you can treat it almost as like an exercise
21:39and like, how big can I go and how much can I write?
21:41And I think that's really important.
21:42And that's a really fun thing for crew as well.
21:44It's like, you might be on a shoot for six days, but you've got like three supercars,
21:49a helicopter, like you're shooting on a plane and you're shooting underwater.
21:53But that's all happening in the same day.
21:54And that is so exciting.
21:55And you really get a lot of experience.
21:57And I think that's exciting for existing creators, but also for new creators and for
22:02students.
22:02It's such a fun thing to be a part of.
22:04Like your first time on a vertical drama set is so different from everything else you would
22:07ever experience.
22:09And I always think it's really, you learn so much as well.
22:11You learn so much.
22:12Like when I walked onto the first vertical drama set, I was like, wow, like it's insane.
22:17And everyone is so happy.
22:19And so like, they just all want to chat to you, especially on our sets.
22:22Like our crew is just amazing and they, they all just want to help and like to push the
22:27format forward and for everyone to learn like what's happening in the processes.
22:30But yeah, I would just say just to go for it.
22:32If you, if you want to make a vertical drama and you're a student or you're a creative,
22:35just make one and just look at what does well and look at what genres you enjoy.
22:40And then look at what does well in vertical dramas and just merge the two and just go for
22:43it.
22:44And I'd also say you can shoot one really well on your iPhone.
22:46If you just wanted to shoot one just to see how the format works, just try doing it on
22:50your phone and just try seeing how you feel about it and how, like, if it works for you,
22:54because there's room to grow and there's room for voices.
22:58It's a, it's a lovely, lovely world.
23:02Yes.
23:03And it's something that's growing and I'm sure that many people want to be part of it.
23:08So thank you so much for sharing your energy, your passion, your ideas.
23:12And I really hope that, you know, we can speak again soon, maybe after your conference
23:17and, and, you know, get to know more about the feedback you received from, from Sweden
23:21and also maybe from other countries, because I'm sure that Europe is really keen on, you
23:26know, getting in and be part of this, of this new era for, for verticals.
23:33Yeah, absolutely.
23:34It'd be lovely to catch up again.
23:35And yeah, it'd be great just to talk to, I'm hoping I'll be jet setting all around Europe
23:39and I'll catch you as I talk to everyone.
23:43But yeah, it's, it's exciting.
23:44Fingers crossed.
23:45Fingers crossed.
23:46Yeah, I'll see you there.
23:47Of course, this, I'm sure that many people also will be, will become experts and I'm sure
23:53that we'll be able to spread knowledge and, and passion because that, that's what it is
23:58about also.
24:00Yeah, absolutely.
24:00A hundred percent.
24:01I think if, if the passion's not there, then, you know, that's why we're speaking because
24:05we're passionate about it and we want to tell people and push it forward.
24:09So, yeah.
24:10Thank you very much, Bethany.
24:12And we talk very soon.
24:13Thank you.
24:17Bye.
24:18Bye.
24:20Okay.
24:21Bye.
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