00:00Hello and good evening. I'm Melissa Idris. Welcome to Consider This. This is the show
00:15where we want you to consider and then reconsider what you know of the news of the day. For
00:19a second time in less than a week, Malaysian activists taking part in the humanitarian
00:25global sumut flotilla have been intercepted by Israeli forces. Nine Malaysians are believed to
00:32be among those detained after their vessels, the Conscience and Umsad, were seized in the
00:40Mediterranean following their attempt to break the siege on Gaza. Now as this fast developing
00:46situation unfolds, what immediate steps are being taken to ensure the safety and the rights of our
00:53detained Malaysians. Joining me on the show now is Lukman Mazlan, who is a legal counsel with the
01:00Centre for Human Rights Research and Advocacy Malaysia, better known as CENTRA. He was part
01:05of the team in Turkey who provided legal support for the 23 Malaysian volunteers who were intercepted
01:13and detained by Israeli forces last week or earlier this week. Lukman, welcome to the show. Thank you
01:20so much for joining us. I really appreciate your time and the work that you do. But maybe you can
01:25begin our conversation for those who may not be aware of the details. Fill us in. Can you begin
01:29by briefly describing CENTRA's role in this case and your personal role during the detention and the
01:37release process? Okay. Good morning, Melissa. Okay. My name is Lukman. As you mentioned, I'm from the
01:45Centre for Human Rights Research and Global Stimulation, CENTRA. Firstly, thank you for having me on the show. I
01:55appreciate the opportunity to discuss on this mission, this important mission and also the work that CENTRA has been
02:02doing behind the scenes. Okay. And as to my personal role in this mission, there's no personal
02:10actually. It's actually a team effort. All right. We all have our our fun to play in the mission.
02:20But to begin, briefly, CENTRA is a non-profit organization. Okay. We are an organization based in
02:30in Malaysia. And our core mission has been to promote human rights, particularly Muslim model of human
02:39rights as well as contributing to the meaningful international human rights. Okay. And for your
02:49information, our involvement in this, um, um, um, began well before the intersection or the detention of
03:00our delegates. Okay. Uh, since, uh, 31 August, our legal team has been actively supporting the mission on the
03:10job in both Italy, uh, and Tunisia, where they had, uh, the participant back there. Okay. Okay. So we
03:18were divided into two things, right? I was, uh, stationed together with my colleague, uh, Mr. Day in
03:24Catania, Italy, and two of my colleagues, Encik Azrael and, uh, Encik Fahmi were stationed in, um, uh, Tunisia.
03:34So for the initial phase, the training period, our, our, uh, uh, responsibility, maybe, um, but the first task we
03:42had to do was, uh, immigration verification. So we assisted in, in, uh, uh, verifying the immigration
03:50status of all our delegates. Uh, we, we, we ensure that they are all clear, um, to enter Jordan.
03:57Okay. Why Jordan? Because why you selected Jordan? Because, uh, uh, due date, uh, nearby location in
04:04Australia, uh, and the close, uh, diplomatic ties with our Malaysian government. So we, we predicted
04:10that, uh, upon interception and release, uh, if there's going to be deportation is going to be through
04:18Jordan. Okay. And, um, um, we also assisted in legal documentation. Okay. We, we are actually
04:25a small group part of a, uh, of a larger, uh, legal group under the global Sumut Protila consisting
04:33of lawyers from, um, uh, 44 countries. Okay. So what we do in Italy, we, we assisted in the
04:40drafting of, uh, the document called the power of attorney. Right. This power of attorney, um, is,
04:47uh, basically a legal document whereby we officially appoint, um, um, Adala, uh, Adala is the legal center
04:56for our minority rights based in Israel to represent all the participants in the event of, uh, detention,
05:05arrest, uh, prosecution, and also deportation. Okay. Uh, other than that, during the initial phase,
05:13we, we gave training to the participant, legal training. Uh, we also conducted, uh, extensive legal
05:21research, uh, with international legal experts and also, yeah, the international lawyers. Um,
05:29as well as, uh, extensive research, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh,
05:33STB11 provision under Israeli law. Look, man, if I may interject here and ask you, so with the, um,
05:40the case of the 23 Malaysian activists who were intercepted and detained, uh, help me and understand,
05:46were there, uh, any formal criminal charges that were brought against the Malaysian volunteers while
05:53they were detained? And I'm wondering, and what legal framework was that under? What basis were they held
05:59under? Okay. Um, there is no, uh, official, uh, legal charges against them under the law of Israel
06:10because, uh, uh, uh, since the beginning, when we gave training to the participant, we, uh,
06:15reminded them, um, um, if any event of intersection and, uh, uh, prosecution, they will be, uh, uh, issued
06:26with a document called the, uh, immediate, uh, release, uh, POM. My name is Yadi Yadong. Okay. So,
06:36if you sign that form, you will be allowed, or you will be deported within 72 hours, uh, of your
06:43detention. Okay. So, uh, we ensure that all our Malaysian delegates sign those documents, reliance
06:49with other lawyers when they were in detention to ensure that they all signed the documents. So,
06:54that's why there's no, uh, charges against them. Okay. Right. Okay. Can I ask you, is it legal for
07:04the Israeli forces to intercept civilian humanitarian vessels in international waters? I mean, what are
07:11some of the principal legal questions that are raised by them doing this? Okay. Uh, before, uh, before
07:21anything like me, let me state clearly that, uh, these participants, uh, particularly our Malaysian delegates,
07:32they were never arrested. Okay. They were never arrested. They were kidnapped. Right. They were
07:39kidnapped in international waters by an illegal occupying force. Yes. Their vessels were intercepted
07:48unlocked illegally in international waters and were transported illegally back to Israeli territory without
07:55any legal, um, justification. So, this is a, a, a, a clear, uh, violation of international law. So,
08:04to answer your question, the central legal question upon interception was that whether the blockade was illegal.
08:12Okay. Okay. So, we are of the view that from the very beginning, the blockade was illegal. Right. Because,
08:21um, uh, we've agreed with the GSF legal team that the position, uh, that the blockade was unlawful under
08:29international law simply because this mission was a peaceful, non-violent, humanitarian mission,
08:36aimed to deliver, uh, aid into Gaza and occupied territory. Right. So, under, um, uh, international law,
08:47um, uh, um, uh, Uibh diagnosis as to Western, uh, but uh, um, um, uh, international humanitarian
08:58military wingerale document, uh, which is highly necessary. Okay. Um, this is, uh, uh, uh,
09:00the international humanitarian legal document, which is highly persuasive, under article 102 of the San Diego Manual,
09:12clearly states that any blockade in international waters, if the sole purpose is to stop civilian population
09:22or to deny them any essential supply for survival, then it is illegal.
09:29Today is number one. Number two is that we also know of the ICJ's opinion on July 24,
09:39where it reaffirmed that society's occupation on Gaza is issued and demands nations to uphold international law
09:50and also protect the rights of Palestinian people. That is number two.
09:56Now, technically, it is also in clear contravention of the Geneva Convention, and it's an additional protocol,
10:04but it's clearly stated under the Geneva Convention that occupying power is obligated to assist, to facilitate in the delivery of humanitarian.
10:16So, these civilian vessels, like I mentioned earlier, it's solely for humanitarian purpose, it's non-violent.
10:25So, there's no legal justification to block the vessel from entering into Gaza.
10:34Lukman, with the nine Malaysians who have been illegally boarded and abducted, kidnapped, as you used the term earlier,
10:46can I ask you where we stand now from what you know in terms of what likely steps are, is Malaysia likely pursuing,
10:56what's likely happening in the next 24 to 48 hours to secure their safe and speedy release?
11:05Okay.
11:06In regards to the nine FFC Freedom Protila coalition participants, the Malaysian delegates,
11:15SEMCHA is not directly involved at the moment as how we are involved with the Global Sumit Protila.
11:24However, we are still working closely with ADALA and also with the international lawyers.
11:29We are following up closely on this mission.
11:33And as the statement of Iyam Abohumad, Dr. Shia Noaibahin,
11:38he had last night that Turkey will still assist,
11:43Turkey will still assist on ensuring the release of the nine participants.
11:48And I wish to also highlight some of the nine participants, the Malaysian delegates,
11:56they are very experienced.
11:59They were involved in the past Plotila missions.
12:02So I believe they have experienced, they know what to do,
12:06they know what form to sign in detention.
12:11I believe now we are just waiting for diplomatic arrangement,
12:16as mentioned by our Prime Minister last night.
12:19Okay.
12:20Alright.
12:21But, if I may add just a little bit,
12:24upon their release, I believe we will work closely with them,
12:31together with the GSF delegates,
12:34for our legal actions, possible legal actions against Israel after this.
12:42Yes, yes.
12:43In ICC, is that where you might be taking international action?
12:49There are a few options that we are currently looking into,
12:54we are exploring.
12:58Because when we landed in Turkey,
13:01we conducted brief interviews with the delegates.
13:05Okay.
13:06Well, during our interview, we discovered that
13:11there are allegations of abuse and torture.
13:16So what we'll do after this,
13:18is that we'll give the delegates about one, two weeks to rest and settle down.
13:23And after that, we'll start our investigation process.
13:26We'll collect evidence and we'll record their testimony.
13:30Probably to file an official complaint to the Human Rights Council.
13:36Also, we are considering the ICC option for your information.
13:41We are also working closely with international lawyers from South Africa and France
13:48to explore the potential action that can be taken against Israel.
13:55Okay.
13:56Luqman, I wish you all the best in your work
13:58and thank you so much for helping bring home our Malaysian activists.
14:03But you and your team, thank you.
14:04Thank you for speaking with us today.
14:06Luqman Mazlan from Sentra there.
14:08We're going to take a quick break here,
14:09here on Consider This.
14:10We'll be back with more on this topic.
14:12Stay tuned.
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