00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris.
00:13Less than 24 hours after Malaysia celebrated the return of our 23 global Sumud Flotilla volunteers
00:21who were intercepted and kidnapped by Israeli forces, reports have now emerged that there was another interception,
00:27this time involving nine Malaysians aboard the Conscience and Umsat.
00:31So the question is, how should the international community respond to these reoccurring interceptions of humanitarian vessels
00:39daring to sail against the illegal blockade of Gaza?
00:43Joining me now is Professor Dr. Adam Leung.
00:46He's the Director of the Centre for Defence and International Security Studies at the National Defence University of Malaysia.
00:54Professor, thank you so much for being on the show with me.
00:56Based on what we've seen so far, how this fast-moving, developing story is unfolding,
01:03how would you summarise the diplomatic efforts that secured the recent return of our 23 Malaysians?
01:12Alright, as you can see, Malaysia and Israel do not have diplomatic ties.
01:18So in order to communicate and get our people back home, Malaysia work with other third countries.
01:25So from the news, we know it's Turkey and maybe Egypt and other Arab states in the region.
01:32So I believe Turkey will have played a great role because Turkey and Israel have a good relationship with each other
01:38and they cooperate strategically within the Mediterranean Sea region.
01:43So Malaysia has always practised a sort of a neutral foreign policy and night-allying basis.
01:51So we are very close with everybody.
01:54So we are not tied up with any great powers from the East, West and all the great power competition and whatnot.
01:59And that allows us room for our Malaysian leadership, for our foreign ministry to contact, communicate and work with many other parties.
02:11And that also includes non-government organizations, NGOs, civil society organizations.
02:16That could be inside Israel.
02:19I think there's a legal group that is actually, it's a sort of NGO with inside Israel, a group of lawyers
02:28that is actually looking after the interests of those humanitarian activities that has been arrested.
02:32So as possible, we have this direct contact with other third parties and indirect communication with other interested parties
02:38who could at least negotiate or communicate with the Israeli officials to release our Malaysians at the earliest time possible.
02:48And of course, to ensure that they are not harmed and they are safe and well taken care of.
02:53So the same process would likely be repeated with the nine Malaysians who are currently still being adopted by Israel.
03:06And what do you think you're watching for?
03:08Or what do you think Malaysia should prioritize in terms of the diplomatic steps over the next 24 to 48 hours?
03:16Okay, we can see that firstly, the whole purpose of this 40 last sailing to Gaza is to create awareness
03:24about the humanitarian crisis going on in Gaza as nothing to do with military or whatnot.
03:29It's purely humanitarian.
03:30So initially, the Israeli has the very sort of firm warnings that those detained will be treated as terrorists.
03:37So, but they didn't go through with that.
03:39So we know they have released the 23 Malaysians and the rest of the activists.
03:44A few handful are still hiding on in detention.
03:48And I suppose the firm stance of the Israelis have softened because a couple of days they were saying that once they intersect and detain the current flotillas,
04:01which include the nine Malaysians, they will be promptly deported.
04:05In a sense that they realized that they have created awareness and people who are released start to say how they were treated by the Israelis.
04:14Some have been harshly treated, humiliated and whatnot.
04:17And the kind of messages they realize is getting across the world.
04:20And now they have softened their stance and said, we are going to deport them promptly.
04:24So we hope for the best that those detained will be promptly deported.
04:29Probably maybe within 24 hours upon detention and whatnot.
04:33But I suppose that the whole process of how Malaysia will be in communication.
04:37Our foreign ministry will be in communication with the Turkish counterparts, with other NGO or civil society organizations in that region to try to get things done.
04:47And of course, as quickly as possible to get the safe return of the Malaysians back home.
04:53So is it is it purely almost a kind of G2G back channel conversation working with civil society organizations to ensure the safe return of the global smooth flotilla activists?
05:09Or I'm wondering, can there be more institutional pressure, multilateral pressure via the UN or the OIC or ASEAN regional partners?
05:22Can it be used in cases like this?
05:24Can international can the international community come together to pressure Israel to release illegal kidnapping in international waters for humanitarian purposes?
05:37I think the United Nations has stated quite clearly in a lot of statements by the UN that do not treat the humanitarian activities harshly, treat them as peaceful activities and whatnot.
05:49In fact, the UN has done a lot of condemnations about the treatment of Gaza, the ongoing genocide and the humanitarian crisis that's going on in Gaza.
06:00So a lot of pressure in terms of statements made by the UN and other international bodies have been given up in the last few months, even the last last year or so.
06:12But again, as we know, the situation is that Israel, thanks to disregard this kind of statements or protests primarily because as we know, they are also backed up by a great power in the United Nations and the UN Security Council.
06:28The only body that can enforce action is also paralysed by the veto system.
06:34So because of that, we can see what Israel is doing.
06:37In a sense, they are quite bold to do what they are able to do to their primary because they know that the international systems cannot do much enforceable action against them as long as the UN Security Council is paralysed.
06:52But the key thing about these actions is that it promotes more awareness about the Gaza issue, the Gaza genocide.
07:00And I think it has reached its objectives.
07:03And now everybody knows about all this.
07:06Almost every other week, there's another frontier going and whatnot.
07:10And I think that Israel also realized that.
07:12And now, as I mentioned earlier, they have softened their message that instead of treating them as terrorists, they will be probably deported to other countries.
07:19They are treating them more like illegal, illegal immigrants coming to your country.
07:24and deport you back to whichever country that is willing to receive it.
07:29So you can see a slightly different way of how they are treating the ongoing attempts by the Florida to enter Gaza and how to deal with the activities on board.
07:38Prof, can I ask you, are there any concerns about diplomatic efforts not being able to succeed?
07:48Are there risks or indicators we should watch out for?
07:53Again, there is always a risk.
07:55This is why I'm worried even if my colleagues also could be a little bit talking and worried about this.
08:01As I said, if there's too many attacks by too many Florida's trying to get into Israel,
08:07we do not know how that Israel will respond in the future.
08:10Would they continue to do what they are doing now?
08:13Or they may even take harsher actions against the ships attempting to enter Gaza?
08:19And this is where tensions may heat up and maybe even armed violence may be used against the activists.
08:27And this is where we reach another escalation to a higher level.
08:31But at the same time, I can see that if you follow the news,
08:34if you follow the news recently, as was yesterday,
08:37Hamas again has said they have accepted the peace plan that was promoted by President Trump.
08:42So we will see if this really goes through the plan,
08:47we may see some declining of violence in Gaza.
08:50And hopefully they will open up more entry points for more humanitarian aid to enter Gaza.
08:55And then I think from that point onwards,
08:58the attention will be shifted to another dimension where we how to send more aid inside Gaza
09:05to various other openings that may be allowed by the Israelis.
09:09So back to the question about if diplomacy fails,
09:14then again, Malaysia again, as I mentioned, we are a neutral country.
09:18We work with everybody.
09:19So we have good relations with great powers like China, the United States,
09:23and even Russia, right?
09:25Isn't it our prime minister have met Putin and so on.
09:28So in a sense that we can also talk and communicate with these great powers
09:31to try to get to enable, to ask them to assist us, you know,
09:37to try to get Malaysians out if they are later on that threat.
09:41And then, you know, diplomacy fails and things get heightened or hot and heated up and whatnot.
09:46So we still have other mechanisms where we can deal, work through with,
09:52to get our Malaysians back home safely.
09:54That is the beauty of Malaysian foreign policy.
09:57We are friends with everybody.
09:59And our Ministry of Foreign Affairs has been doing very, very well
10:03in having all this open communication with various bodies in various countries.
10:08And of course, even informal, as you mentioned, informal backdoor channels of communication.
10:13It's all about communications, talking and network with people that enable,
10:18you know, things can be done quietly.
10:20And what matters is that, you know, we want to get our Malaysians back home safely
10:24if there's a problem, a crisis is up or whatnot.
10:28Absolutely.
10:29In the minute also that we have left, I have very little time,
10:32but you brought up the Gaza peace talks and all of this is happening amid those talks.
10:37Can I ask you what you're watching out for to indicate whether there might be some progress
10:42in a ceasefire in opening up humanitarian corridors?
10:45I think the first step of the ceasefire where Hamas has agreed,
10:49where Israel also agreed is that Hamas will release the remaining hostages
10:54and any hostages that has died their bodies back to Israel
10:58and Israel will release some Palestinian prisoners that have been helped by them.
11:02And then the Israel forces will withdraw slowly step by step to certain areas.
11:08And then from there, I hope that the humanitarian corridor,
11:12more corridors can be opened up and more humanitarian aid can be sent in.
11:17And then we will see, hopefully see some development in the elevation of the hunger crisis,
11:23health crisis is going on in Gaza.
11:25So that is my hope.
11:26But the only worries is that as all peace plans, whether it will hold or not.
11:32So I'm only worried there will be some fighting or whatnot erupts and whatnot.
11:36Then things, you know, the whole plan may collapse.
11:38And then we are back to square one and the Gaza,
11:41the people in Gaza will continue to suffer.
11:44But let's see what happens in the next few days and what develops and how these plans will take home.
11:50Prof, thank you so much for being on the show with me today.
11:53I really appreciate your insights and sharing some of those analysis with us.
11:57I appreciate your time.
11:58Professor Dr. Adam Leong there from the National Defence University of Malaysia,
12:03wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
12:05I'm Melissa Idris signing off for the evening.
12:07Thank you so much for watching and good night.
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