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The international rules that govern war, occupation, and humanitarian relief are being tested this week at the International Court of Justice. Israel’s decision to ban a UN agency from working in the Occupied Palestinian Territories has sparked a global legal challenge, with forty-five countries and organisations—Malaysia included—weighing in at this week’s public hearings at The Hague. On this episode of #ConsiderThis Melisa Idris speaks with Datuk Dr Ahmad Faizal Mohd Perdaus, President of Mercy Malaysia.

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00:00Music
00:00Hi, welcome back to Consider This. I'm Melissa Idris.
00:14Today, the International Court of Justice opened public hearings at The Hague.
00:1945 countries and international organizations, including Malaysia, will submit arguments at the hearing,
00:26which was initially triggered by the unprecedented move of Israel in banning a UN agency from operating in the occupied Palestinian territories.
00:37So joining us now to discuss this further is Datuk Dr. Ahmad Faizal Muhammad Berdas, who is the president of Mercy Malaysia.
00:43Dr. Faizal, thank you for being on the show.
00:45The public hearings at the ICJ this week stems from concerns that Israel is systematically blocking humanitarian aid into Gaza.
00:55Can you talk to me a little bit about how important it is that the international legal system is now being asked to examine these obstacles more formally?
01:06Right. Thank you, Melissa and Astro.
01:08So, first and foremost, Israel's act to disallow and make illegal the UN agency for the rehabilitation and works for the Palestinian refugees, UNRWA,
01:26in the occupied Palestinian territories, has been taken by everyone in the world except for Israel and Israel's strongest allies.
01:35And really, no legal grounds and no even moral grounds, if you like.
01:40If we go back a little bit in time, and just very briefly, if people can remember that there were allegations back in late 2023 that UNRWA was for terrorists,
01:54that some of its staff were Hamas members, allegations that were never really proven 100% on paper.
02:02And in fact, the United Nations, at the instructions of the Secretary General himself, had conducted a thorough investigation,
02:09had suspended the alleged members of the Hamas network, and later found that there was no support for any of the Israeli allegations.
02:20Despite Israel continued to ban UNRWA and had, late last year, 2024, formally in the Knesset, in the Israeli parliament, to ban UNRWA from operating.
02:36Now, this means that the biggest agency, with the biggest responsibility, thousands, literally thousands of institutions, both schools, clinics, as well as development centers for Palestinian refugees,
02:52in the occupied Palestinian, also in Lebanon, in Syria, etc., were made to be illegal in Israeli eyes.
03:02Now, this has been compounded, of course, over the last few months, especially, by Israel's conduct towards all humanitarian aid,
03:11and by Israel's refusal to recognize that humanitarian aid agencies, both UN and non-UN,
03:19actually have a protected right under international humanitarian law to actually deliver aid.
03:25And the delivery of humanitarian aid is actually a provision, given assurance, under international humanitarian law.
03:31And, of course, over the last 55, 56 days now, after the end of the ceasefire that was brokered early in the year,
03:41as President Trump came into office, it's now over 55, 56 days that Israel has not only broken the ceasefire,
03:48bombed Gaza again, but also blockaded totally any delivery of any sort of aid,
03:56any sort of organized aid, through any of the crossings, either Rafah or Karim Shalom or others,
04:02leaving the Palestinians and aid agencies, including other UN agencies, not just UNRWA,
04:08but also WFP, WHO, and everybody else, short of aid supplies.
04:13In fact, WFP has already said that they are very short of food and will run out soon.
04:21So this has meant that, on top of military pressure, starvation, malnutrition, dehydration,
04:29which have been imposed upon the people of Gaza, deliberately has been shown to be purposefully done by the Israelis,
04:40which by itself constitutes a violation of international humanitarian law and therefore qualifies as a war crime.
04:47Dr. Faisal, you talked about how humanitarian aid is protected under international humanitarian law.
04:55Talk to me a little bit about the fact that since Israel passed that law to ban UNRWA from operating inside the occupied Palestinian territories,
05:05that essentially criminalizes humanitarian aid.
05:08But what about aid workers?
05:10We also hear alarming reports of hundreds of aid workers being killed in Gaza.
05:15Do those protections also extend to those operating for humanitarian assistance?
05:24Right. Yes.
05:26The short answer to your question is yes.
05:29International humanitarian law protects civilians, non-combatants,
05:33but gives specific protection to those delivering humanitarian aid,
05:38and especially more so to medical aid workers, to healthcare workers and to healthcare institutions like hospitals,
05:48like clinics, like medical points, providing treatment for those who are wounded, even combatants who are wounded.
05:55So that's international humanitarian law.
05:57And specifically for UNRWA, decriminalization of UNRWA means that Israel no longer recognizes UNRWA staff,
06:04whether they are local, Palestinian, or even expatriate international staff,
06:09as long as they're working with UNRWA as legal or as UN workers.
06:15Now that doesn't extend to the other humanitarian aid workers, that kind of classification,
06:21at least in Israeli eyes.
06:23But we've seen, as you rightly pointed out, over the last one and a half years,
06:27if we count the local staff who've been killed, there have been hundreds now of UNRWA staff,
06:34mainly UNRWA staff, but also staff of other UN agencies, other international humanitarian organizations,
06:39NGOs, but also especially local staff of hospitals who also qualify under the broad classification of aid workers,
06:50yeah, and local staff of food kitchens, etc., who've also been killed, injured, yeah,
06:57some taken into custody without real reason.
07:02All these are violations of international humanitarian law,
07:05and therefore they impede the delivery of aid directly through the bombings of centres,
07:13of hospitals, or of aid convoys, or of humanitarian workers, or indirectly,
07:18when those aid agencies, like UNRWA for example, are criminalized and therefore are stopped
07:23from working in the occupied Palestinian territories.
07:26I'm just wondering what this could mean, Dr Faizal, for the future of aid.
07:30So, with the public hearings at the ICJ, the ICJ has been asked by the UN to opine on this issue,
07:37to issue an advisory opinion.
07:39I understand that it's not legally binding, but what could this mean for other humanitarian organizations
07:47operating in conflict areas, like in the occupied Palestinian territories?
07:53Malaysia has so many humanitarian organizations, including Mercy Malaysia itself, operating in Palestine.
08:00How do you think this ICJ public hearings and advisory opinion might impact the future of aid moving forward?
08:09Oh, this is a sentinel moment, for sure.
08:14And what the ICJ decides, and then what the wider international humanitarian community decides after that,
08:22as a follow-through of whatever decision the ICJ makes,
08:26which we are very hopeful will be very much in favour of continued humanitarian aid,
08:30is very, very important.
08:31Number one, specifically for Gaza, because the situation is very, very dire, extremely dire,
08:38especially for those in areas which have been cut off from aid for now months, including north of Gaza.
08:44Secondly, of course, as you rightly pointed out again, the wider humanitarian aid issue.
08:50And we have other crises in this world, which are also as bad, if not worse.
08:57Sudan, for example, has got the biggest humanitarian crisis by numbers at the moment,
09:03both in terms of the number of people affected, but also the quantity of aid that's needed.
09:08There's Myanmar suffering both an earthquake as well as underlying conflict.
09:12There's still Yemen, there's still Ukraine, etc.
09:15All these theatres are still undergoing turmoil, and people are in need of humanitarian aid in the millions.
09:21So if the ICJ does not rule in favour of access for humanitarian aid and for protection of humanitarian workers,
09:31this will have a huge impact on organisations like the UN, like the International Red Cross,
09:36but like organisations like Mercy Malaysia.
09:38We've just had our fifth team from Malaysia in Gaza, safely leaving Gaza after about a month of deployment there under UN auspices.
09:49So should the ICJ's ruling not be in favour of continuing humanitarian access,
09:55organisations like ourselves, like Mercy Malaysia, will have to think very, very carefully on how we should respond,
10:01even if the UN, for example, or the International Red Cross requests us to provide support in terms of human resource,
10:09in terms of teams, in terms of even other technical capacities,
10:13because we will be risking a lot more.
10:18Even if there is protection from the international law as provided by the IHL,
10:24you cannot have a 100% risk-free situation.
10:28And we understand that, and our team members, our staff, our volunteers understand and accept that.
10:33But should there be no protection at all?
10:36Or if countries like Israel are allowed to ignore IHL,
10:41and to actually delist and criminalise organisations like UNRWA,
10:46who do only good work, then the future of aid is called into question.
10:52Right. Dr. Faisal, thank you so much for speaking with me.
10:55Datuk Dr. Faisal Mohamad Berdaus there, President of Mercy Malaysia,
10:59wrapping up this episode of Consider This.
11:02I'm Melissa Idris, signing off for the evening.
11:04Thank you so much for watching, and good night.
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