- 3 months ago
What if the world became a better place by becoming better, more authentic versions of ourselves?
Despite what the headlines and social media might suggest, we’re not as divided as we think. Most people want the same core things: to be a good person, to live with integrity and authenticity, and to make a positive impact.
But we’re caught in a collective illusion - where the loudest voices dominate 80% of the headlines, social media, and public conversation.
If there’s one episode to share with someone who’s feeling discouraged about the state of the world, it’s this one.
In this powerful conversation, Mel sits down with Dr. Todd Rose, co-founder and CEO of the think tank Populace, which is on a mission to use data to ensure that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives.
He was also a professor at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education, where he earned his PhD and founded the Laboratory for the Science of Individuality.
Dr. Rose has analyzed the largest dataset ever collected on what people actually want in life based not on what they share publicly, but what they admit privately, when they’re telling the truth.
The data is clear: we are more alike than we are different. And the small, authentic choices we make every day can have a ripple effect that changes culture at scale.
He also shares a remarkable moment in history that proves real change doesn’t start with the majority - it starts with a few people who dare to live honestly.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Why the world feels more polarized than it really is
What people actually want in life, according to the data
How the media and social platforms distort what most people believe
Why authenticity makes you happier, stronger, and more impactful
How your personal choices create ripple effects with global impact
Practical steps to live more truthfully and reclaim your voice
This conversation will change how you see the world — and your place in it.
If there’s one episode to listen to and share, it’s this one.
For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/ep...
Get tickets to Mel's live tour, Let Them Tour 2026: https://www.melrobbins.com/the-let-th...
Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: / themelrobbinspodcast
I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode.
In this episode:
00:00 Meet The Guest
02:24 The Hidden Pressures to Be Someone You’re Not
11:54 The Lies We All Quietly Believe
29:37 What We Get Wrong About Success
36:25 How to Live a More Authentic Life
50:55 The Difference Between Fitting in and Belonging
01:04:07 The Quiet Cost of Conformity
01:15:06 The First Step to Rebuilding Trust
Despite what the headlines and social media might suggest, we’re not as divided as we think. Most people want the same core things: to be a good person, to live with integrity and authenticity, and to make a positive impact.
But we’re caught in a collective illusion - where the loudest voices dominate 80% of the headlines, social media, and public conversation.
If there’s one episode to share with someone who’s feeling discouraged about the state of the world, it’s this one.
In this powerful conversation, Mel sits down with Dr. Todd Rose, co-founder and CEO of the think tank Populace, which is on a mission to use data to ensure that all people have the opportunity to pursue fulfilling lives.
He was also a professor at Harvard University’s Graduate School of Education, where he earned his PhD and founded the Laboratory for the Science of Individuality.
Dr. Rose has analyzed the largest dataset ever collected on what people actually want in life based not on what they share publicly, but what they admit privately, when they’re telling the truth.
The data is clear: we are more alike than we are different. And the small, authentic choices we make every day can have a ripple effect that changes culture at scale.
He also shares a remarkable moment in history that proves real change doesn’t start with the majority - it starts with a few people who dare to live honestly.
In this episode, you’ll learn:
Why the world feels more polarized than it really is
What people actually want in life, according to the data
How the media and social platforms distort what most people believe
Why authenticity makes you happier, stronger, and more impactful
How your personal choices create ripple effects with global impact
Practical steps to live more truthfully and reclaim your voice
This conversation will change how you see the world — and your place in it.
If there’s one episode to listen to and share, it’s this one.
For more resources related to today’s episode, click here for the podcast episode page: https://www.melrobbins.com/episode/ep...
Get tickets to Mel's live tour, Let Them Tour 2026: https://www.melrobbins.com/the-let-th...
Follow The Mel Robbins Podcast on Instagram: / themelrobbinspodcast
I’m just your friend. I am not a licensed therapist, and this podcast is NOT intended as a substitute for the advice of a physician, professional coach, psychotherapist, or other qualified professional. Got it? Good. I’ll see you in the next episode.
In this episode:
00:00 Meet The Guest
02:24 The Hidden Pressures to Be Someone You’re Not
11:54 The Lies We All Quietly Believe
29:37 What We Get Wrong About Success
36:25 How to Live a More Authentic Life
50:55 The Difference Between Fitting in and Belonging
01:04:07 The Quiet Cost of Conformity
01:15:06 The First Step to Rebuilding Trust
Category
🛠️
LifestyleTranscript
00:00:00I had an interesting upbringing. Failed out of high school with a 0.9 GPA. On welfare,
00:00:04string of minimum wage jobs. I had like no self-esteem. Recognizing rock bottom,
00:00:09something had to change. And I happened upon a book.
00:00:15Today's conversation about authenticity and the lies that you've been told is going to be
00:00:20life-changing. Dr. Todd Rose, expert researcher with a PhD from Harvard, is here to teach you
00:00:27how to reconnect with your true self so you can live the life you deserve. Here's the important
00:00:31part about authenticity. It is a process. It's not a destination. There's no such thing as you can put
00:00:37all the work you want in right now and you're like, I'm done. That's not how it works. A flourishing
00:00:42life is one where you grow and change and discover. And once you realize how many people end up copying
00:00:48you, you'll see just how profoundly we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect
00:00:53of us. The only truly bad decision is when you violate your own values and aspirations to conform
00:01:00to a group that didn't want that from you in the first place. Nobody wins. We're the first generation
00:01:07now as a society that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media.
00:01:12What is a collective illusion? Collective illusion is groupthink,
00:01:16but you're wrong about the group. Almost two-thirds of people are admitting that they are self-silencing
00:01:22right now. You cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. It's about
00:01:26authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite of collective illusions. Probably the single most
00:01:32important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for society and for individuals is
00:01:39Hey, it's your friend Mel and welcome to the Mel Rodden's podcast.
00:01:52Hey, it's Mel. Before we get into this incredible episode about living a more authentic life,
00:01:58my team was showing me 57% of you who watch here on YouTube are not subscribed yet. Do me a quick
00:02:04favor, hit subscribe. That way you don't miss any of the episodes of the Mel Robbins podcast that we
00:02:09post here on YouTube. And it also lets me know that you enjoy the guests and the content that we're
00:02:14bringing to you for free because I want to make sure you don't miss a thing. And boy, are you here
00:02:20for an incredible conversation today? So thanks for hitting subscribe. All right, you ready? Good.
00:02:25Let's dive in. Please help me welcome Dr. Todd Rose to the Mel Robbins podcast. Thanks for having me.
00:02:30I am so excited to talk to you. Me too. I'm really excited for so many reasons. And here's where I
00:02:36want to start. How is my life going to be different? If you understand and internalize the ideas we're
00:02:42going to talk about today, you're going to be more confident. You're going to live more authentically,
00:02:46which is going to lead to greater life satisfaction, happiness. But more importantly,
00:02:51your relationships are going to be better and you're going to have a deeper sense of belonging
00:02:56to the groups that matter most to you. That's a big promise. I'm really excited for that. I
00:03:01actually believe you. No, I do believe you. I believe you. And what I'm excited about is I have
00:03:07this sense that we live in a world where we all feel so divided from one another. And yet I hold firmly
00:03:15to this belief that the vast majority of us are way more similar and believe way more of the same
00:03:21things and want a lot of the same things than we actually are led to believe in the world right now.
00:03:26And you're a hundred percent correct. You know, what we do at my think tank populace, we do what's
00:03:31called private opinion research. So what is private opinion research? So polling, it's all public.
00:03:36Oh, and it has all the social pressure. Okay. You know, there's a right answer. And so it turns out
00:03:41everybody's misrepresenting their views right now. You feel like there's this big cost if you just
00:03:47don't go with the flow or you just don't agree, or you just don't do what you think everybody else
00:03:52wants you to do, whether it's your family or at work or with your friend group. And so where I want
00:03:58to start is you write a lot in your bestselling book, Collective Illusions, about the fact that we
00:04:03are fundamentally wired to conform. What does that mean, Todd?
00:04:08Yeah. This is really important to bring up because when we talk about conformity,
00:04:11it kind of has like a negative connotation, right? Yes.
00:04:15Like nobody wants to admit they conform to something. Yes.
00:04:18But here's what's important. We are hardwired to belong to groups.
00:04:22Okay. Evolutionarily, this is how we survive. And that belonging can lead to conformity when we feel
00:04:28like we have to distort who we are to get that belonging. And if you don't mind, let me give you
00:04:32an example. Please.
00:04:33I'm going to tell you about what I think is my favorite study ever, because I can't believe he got
00:04:36funded to do it. A colleague of mine in the Netherlands back in 2009 was a little skeptical
00:04:42about this conformity, like how deep it really went. And so he said, what's the most subjective
00:04:47thing I could possibly imagine and see if conformity exists there? So he decided it was who you think
00:04:53is good looking because look, beauty is in the eye of the beholder, right? And there's no social
00:04:58pressure to be like, you should think they're attractive because I do. So he does this clever
00:05:02study. He puts people in fMRI scanners and he does a version of hot or not.
00:05:08Okay.
00:05:09Really? Like, this is why I can't believe he got funded. He gets people, he shows them a couple
00:05:13hundred faces and he asks them to rate them on their attractiveness from one to five, one, no,
00:05:18thank you, five being yes, please. Right? Which by the way, you do that kind of stuff on the street,
00:05:23you're a creep. You do it in a scanner, you're a scientist, but here's what's wild. So you're in
00:05:29that scanner and you see a face and you say, well, I think that's a five, pretty attractive.
00:05:33What happens next is instantly you are shown another number, which is supposed to represent
00:05:40the average score of everyone who's done this task before you.
00:05:43Okay. So if I just ranked somebody a five and then all of a sudden I'm shown, well,
00:05:48everybody else says they were three.
00:05:49Yes, exactly. Right. And then we're going to watch what happens in your brain.
00:05:54And here's the thing, that group number was completely made up. There was no other group.
00:05:59Okay. It's just you. And it was engineered so that half the time you're told that you and your
00:06:06group are lockstep. You said, you said five, the group said five. Okay. Right. And on some of the
00:06:12trials, it makes it wildly different. You said five, the group said one. Oh, here's what's crazy.
00:06:18On the trials where you and your group are aligned, it triggers what we call a reward signal in your
00:06:25brain. It's the same areas that hard drugs activate. And it's meant to tell you whatever
00:06:31you're doing, keep doing it. This is amazing. Right. On the trials where you were like five and
00:06:36they said one, it triggers what's called an error signal in your brain. It's this cascading electrical
00:06:41signal that disrupts memory, attention, everything. It's meant to get you to stop because something
00:06:48you're doing is wrong and you might be in danger. So this is what happens in your brain, but that's not
00:06:52even the most interesting thing. The clever part was then at the end of this study, you're in the
00:06:58task. They come and say, oh, I'm so sorry. Uh, for some reason, the equipment didn't record your
00:07:04responses. Would you mind just quickly doing the task again? We're not going to record your brain.
00:07:08Just quickly do the task again. They randomized the couple hundred pictures. They get you to rate
00:07:14them again. Lo and behold, most people moved their scores to align with the group and they didn't even
00:07:21know they did it. You interview them after they're like, no, that didn't affect me at all. So when I
00:07:26say it's hardwired, that's what I mean. Even as something as subjective as attractiveness, we just
00:07:31want to be with our groups. And there's a lot that we'll do to maintain that group alignment.
00:07:36I think it's fascinating that there is an error signal in your brain that when you recognize that
00:07:43you're not conforming with group think or group look or group opinion, that automatically signals
00:07:50that you're on the outside and you need to stop. And I want to give you another example to see if
00:07:54I'm tracking with this, because this just happened to me the other night. Like a lot of people,
00:07:58I am starting to really care more about my health. And one of the things I am cutting way back on is
00:08:05alcohol. And so I have this rule with myself that I'm just not going to drink during the week.
00:08:09Yeah.
00:08:10Now, fast forward to last night, I'm out at a restaurant after work and one of my colleagues
00:08:16turns to me and says, I think I'm out of a glass of wine. You want a glass of wine? Okay. Can you
00:08:24explain using the research what just happened? Because here's the thing. I know I was going to
00:08:29go in there and order a Diet Coke or a club soda or whatever. The second somebody asked me, hey,
00:08:36you want to have something? It's like I make a decision. Reflexive.
00:08:40Didn't even contemplate it. You just went with it.
00:08:42Well, Todd, you wrote the book on this. So I think that's an example of why this is
00:08:47a really important thing to understand that is happening in your physiology and your neurology
00:08:53and biology. So what's happening?
00:08:54It's coming back to that need to belong that we just talked about and the possibility of
00:08:58conformity there. Because the norm in our society is when you go out socially, you drink. And people
00:09:04that don't drink aren't fun. That's the stereotype. At the same time, you don't want to go against
00:09:09the grain.
00:09:09Yes.
00:09:10Right?
00:09:10But do you know what's interesting?
00:09:11If I had said to my colleague, you know, I'm just not drinking during the week right
00:09:16now. I don't think I'm having, you know what they probably would have said? I don't think
00:09:18I would have anything either.
00:09:19And that's the thing is because you don't have the simple tips and tricks that you can
00:09:24use to not put yourself in that. Well, I don't want to come off as something I don't think
00:09:28I am. I think I'm fun. I think I'm social. I like to hang out with people. So something
00:09:32like, you know what? I decided to take a month off or you know what? I decided I'm not drinking
00:09:38on weekdays because then it doesn't say I'm not someone who drinks, right? It's just I've
00:09:43made that choice. And you'd be shocked how many people, like the person said, Hey, I'm
00:09:49having a drink. We're at a table with a bunch of people and we're like, okay, fine. And
00:09:53then everyone sees two people do it. And you're like, okay, there's a lot of pressure building
00:09:56as they come to you. And what will you have, sir? Like I'll have what they're having, you
00:10:01know, is just the ability to say something like, you know what? I've decided to take a
00:10:07month off or whatever. And no one's going to say something's wrong with you. But what
00:10:11you'll do is you'll give them permission to do the same thing and try it out. It's amazing.
00:10:17And once you realize how many people end up copying you, you'll see just how profoundly
00:10:22we're affected by what we believe other people believe and expect of us.
00:10:26What is happening in that moment where you say, okay, I'll have what they're having. Like
00:10:32what's happening in your brain?
00:10:33So remember we talked about that reward response. Yep.
00:10:36So your brain has what's called an anticipated reward response. We know that when we're aligned
00:10:41with our group, it feels really good. And we want that. And it's like, it's not quite like
00:10:45drug addiction, but it's in that ballpark where once you're addicted to that drug, you're chasing
00:10:50the drug. Everything is about, I want that feeling again.
00:10:53Of belonging.
00:10:53Of belonging.
00:10:54And we're talking about a deeper sense that's wired in you.
00:10:58It's so deep and it's really important. And again, I want to say, there's nothing wrong
00:11:02with wanting to belong. You should want to belong. And you just have to understand when that need
00:11:07to belong tips into being controlled or manipulated or bottom line just leads you to do things that
00:11:14go against your own judgment. That's when you start making really bad decisions.
00:11:18I'm really excited because I feel like this is one of those hidden levers that we don't
00:11:24realize is just operating in the background. And when you understand what you're dealing
00:11:31with, you have so much more power of it.
00:11:33That's right. After I was booked around the show, I actually dug in and read your book,
00:11:37led them. And I got to tell you, there are so many parallels. When we get into all the tools
00:11:41later on, we'll be able to dig into that a little bit more because there's just so much
00:11:46overlap. I'm excited to dig in. That's a huge compliment. We'll get into the tools later,
00:11:50but there's so much more about your research that I want to make sure that we fully get to
00:11:54and understand. One of the terms I'd love to have you talk a little bit about is this
00:11:58term collective illusions. It's the title of your bestselling book. Can you define in very plain
00:12:04terms, what is a collective illusion? Collective illusion is groupthink, but you're wrong about
00:12:10the group. So let me unpack that just a little bit. It formally is a phenomenon where most people
00:12:16in a group go along with something they don't privately agree with simply because they incorrectly
00:12:22think that most other people agree with it. Okay. Give me an example.
00:12:26So one of the most sticky collective illusions of all that's been around for multiple decades
00:12:31that we've tracked is this binge drinking in college. Okay. So kids leave home, they go to a new
00:12:38place. They're like, what does it mean to be a college student here? Yep. And they all think
00:12:42that most kids binge drink. And so they go to a party and they end up binge drinking when in reality
00:12:48in private, we know as a matter of fact, most college kids are deeply skeptical about binge drinking.
00:12:53They know it's bad, but it's what they feel like they need to do to belong, to be a part,
00:12:59to be a college student. Wow. And it turns out was what we can talk about later. No amount of
00:13:03trying to tell them how bad drinking is works. In fact, it propagates the illusion.
00:13:10Oh, that it's a problem and that everybody's doing it. Yeah. Why would all the administration
00:13:14put all these posters up telling us about the dangers of binge drinking if people weren't
00:13:18binge drinking? And so it ends up fueling the illusion. And so what you need is to have social
00:13:23proof where you have popular kids, other people just being like, I don't binge drink. Why would I
00:13:29binge drink? You can't lecture or try to persuade. You have to just reveal. But this happens all the
00:13:35time. What's crazy is the phenomenon of collective illusions we've known about for about a hundred
00:13:40years in research. It goes back further, obviously, because the emperor's new clothes
00:13:45is about collective illusions. Unpack that for the person that doesn't know what the
00:13:49emperor's new clothes is. So it's the story of the parable of like the emperor gets convinced by
00:13:55some huckster that they can spin the most beautiful clothing ever made. And it's so fine
00:14:01that it's invisible to everyone except for people who are worthy of their station in life. And the
00:14:07emperor's like, obviously, I'm worthy of it. So they make up this and they fake like they're putting
00:14:13it on him. And he's like, well, obviously I can see it because if I say I can't see it, then I must
00:14:17not be worthy of being in charge of everything. Yes. Yes. And then everybody around him wants power and
00:14:24wants to be close to it. So they don't want to say you're buck naked. Right. And then the king's
00:14:29prancing around, going outside, all the crowds line up, they're cheering because no one wants to
00:14:34say it. And then one little kid is like, why are you naked? The innocence of the child to be just
00:14:41asked the obvious question. And then the illusion shatters. So we've obviously, this has been a
00:14:46problem in humanity for a very long time. What's interesting is up until just recently,
00:14:53the number of illusions, collective illusions that have harmed us as a society were pretty small.
00:15:00Yes. But you put it into the social media age. Yes. And it's just exploded to the point where
00:15:06now name anything that matters in life. It's a coin toss whether or not you're just wrong about what
00:15:12your community believes now. Well, I also think like the experience we all have when you go online
00:15:16and it looks like every single person, I mean, I'm a 57 year old woman, so it's largely menopause
00:15:23and interior design and health products. Like every single person is taking the exact same brand of
00:15:28supplement. Every single person is wearing this exact makeup line. Every single person is buying
00:15:34this particular couch. And I feel like, oh my God, I'm missing out. Like everybody has that thing.
00:15:39And it does feel like it's gotten worse. And then my daughter was talking today, like, well,
00:15:43I'm getting targeted for a cellulite foam roller that I'm about to buy because it looks like everybody
00:15:48that I follow online is using it. And so what are some of the collective illusions that you can point
00:15:55to in day-to-day life that we may not be aware that that's what that is? Well, let's hit on those.
00:16:01But when we think about how is it that we could end up being so wrong about the groups that matter so
00:16:08much to us? Like, it's kind of weird that that would be true, right? Let me show you like two
00:16:12things. One, how they happen in day-to-day life without anybody trying to manipulate you. And then
00:16:17let's talk about what social media does at the societal level. And I think people will have some
00:16:24similar experience because I can remember the first time that I actually experienced a collective
00:16:28illusion. When it was back. So growing up, I was kind of a problematic child, which I'm sure we can
00:16:34talk about. And didn't really fit in except for my grandmother, who was like my second mom.
00:16:41Whenever I was with her, I could just be myself. And I was good enough. And she decided, I mean,
00:16:47they were very, very poor. She had me come and sleep over as a kid once a month, just me. Literally
00:16:53no other grandkids got this. And when I was there, she'd make a bologna sandwich in her little house,
00:16:58little tiny kitchenette would play Yahtzee together. And we just talked and I could share
00:17:05anything with her stuff. I couldn't tell my parents, whatever. It was like literally amazing. It was
00:17:09this oasis for me in a really tough environment. We've been sleeping over, sleeping over, sleeping
00:17:15over. Then one time she says, Hey, good news. I'm taking you to Sizzler, your grandpa and I,
00:17:23this steakhouse, this all you can eat steakhouse. And I was like, I don't, I was like, I don't really
00:17:28want to go to, it's noisy there. Like, I just want to be here, but I knew it meant a lot to them.
00:17:33So I went with it and that's what we started doing. Instead of just playing Yahtzee, we'd go
00:17:38to Sizzler and that went on for six years. Okay. So in 2015, we found out she was dying and I went
00:17:45back to Utah where I was born to say goodbye to her. And I was preparing, I was like my last
00:17:50conversation I'm ever going to have with this woman that meant the world to me. And I'm holding her
00:17:55hand and I'm, we're talking about a lot of things. And I thought, you know, I want to just let
00:17:58her know how transformative those sleepovers were to me. And I said, you know, grandma,
00:18:03I just want to tell you all those times sleeping over. She's like, barely can get a word out.
00:18:09And she says, she touches my arm. She says, I know, I know what mattered most to you. It
00:18:14was going to Sizzler. And I was like, wait, what? Like, and I didn't have the heart to be
00:18:21like, uh, I didn't like that at all. Right. But, but she said, I, just to be honest, um, your
00:18:26grandpa and I didn't really like going to Sizzler, but we knew it meant a lot to you.
00:18:31So I'm sitting there thinking, wait, we all ended up going to Sizzler once a month for six years
00:18:37because we all thought we all wanted to go to Sizzler when nobody actually did.
00:18:42Again, I didn't have the heart to tell her on her deathbed. She could have me for a baloney
00:18:46sandwich, but that kind of like, nobody was manipulating anyone. We care about each other.
00:18:51We want each other to be happy and we can misread each other. And then just like the,
00:18:56the drink example, nobody wants to question it and we just keep doing it.
00:19:01Well, you're making my wheel spin now where I'm sitting here thinking,
00:19:04what are we all continuing to do as a family that we all think we're supposed to be doing?
00:19:11Like it could even be as something as simple as we've always had the same meal for a certain
00:19:16holiday. Nobody actually likes it. Why are we not just doing something different and talking about
00:19:24it? I promise you if do me one favor is just go to your family or your significant other and think
00:19:32about the things you do on a routine basis. Okay. So give us some examples. Um, I have, uh,
00:19:37friends that have every Friday, we have salmon night and we watch a movie. Maybe everybody wants
00:19:42to do that. It could be true. It's these basic day-to-day things and just, just say, honestly,
00:19:49do we still like doing this? You know what I mean? And just ask it, you will be shocked at how many of
00:19:54these, someone's go, well, actually, if you give me the permission to be honest, like, actually,
00:19:59maybe we could shake that up a bit. So if illusions can happen amongst like tightly knit relationships,
00:20:07it's not surprising that they can happen in a country of 300 million people at a societal level.
00:20:14Think about, you have all these identities and you're tied to these groups that matter to you,
00:20:18but they consist of people you're probably never going to meet. And you have to guess,
00:20:22like, it, like, what does that group believe? You know what I mean? So I can know what it is I'm
00:20:28trying to align to. Yeah. And here's the thing about your brain that is just crazy is how your brain
00:20:34estimates what your group believes. Cause you'd imagine given how important it is with conformity
00:20:39and belonging, you'd have some sophisticated way that your brain calculates, like on average,
00:20:45this is what my group believes. Now there's a shortcut your brain takes. No kidding. Your brain assumes
00:20:50the loudest voices repeated the most are the majority. The loudest voices repeated the most are
00:21:00the majority. Even when you know, it's not true, even intellectually, you know, Oh, this is just
00:21:05Mel telling me this over and over again. That's your brain is keeping score this way. So it must've
00:21:12worked. You've evolved to have the shortcut, but you put that into a social media age. Okay. So here's
00:21:18a stat that blows my mind. Okay. If you take what was Twitter, which is now X research has shown
00:21:24that 80% of all the content on that platform is generated by only 10% of the users, 80% of the
00:21:34content you're reading on X is generated by 10%. And here's the trick. Pew research has found that that
00:21:4010% isn't remotely representative of the general public. They are extreme on almost every social
00:21:47issue, but you can see the problem here. Let's say 10% of people hold some view, but you think it's
00:21:5480%. I think that's what's happened. Uh-huh. That air signal kicks in unless you're willing to
00:22:01override that and go against what you think your group believes. What do you do? You end up self
00:22:07silencing. You say nothing or worse. You start saying what you think people want to hear so you
00:22:14can be part of the group. And when enough people self silence, the only people left are the people on
00:22:21the fringes. The 10% that are the loudest repeating everything that we then say, oh, well, everybody
00:22:27that's part of that party must believe that. Clearly. Everybody that follows that person must
00:22:32believe that. Correct. And what you're basically saying is the research is very conclusive. That's
00:22:37absolutely not true. Not true. The loudest voices don't represent the majority. They don't. In fact,
00:22:41they almost never do. They wouldn't have to be so loud, right? If you knew everybody agreed with you,
00:22:46you don't have to say much. So, but you can see how this is where then you get these societal level
00:22:52collective illusions because we're self silencing. And our data on this is we have more private opinion
00:22:57data on the American public than any organization I'm quite certain of. Almost two thirds of people
00:23:04are admitting that they are self silencing right now. That means withholding things that matter to them
00:23:11because they think other people disagree. Like this is a very dangerous place to be when we can't
00:23:17even be honest with each other. And so the problem with that is as these illusions form, okay? So now
00:23:22I'm thinking, wow, most people, like what happened? What happened to society? Like, am I crazy or did
00:23:29everybody else seem to go crazy? And it's like, you start feeling alienated from your group, isolated,
00:23:35a little bit resentful that you're having to self silence. And we see this in the data. You start losing
00:23:40trust in other people and life gets much worse for you, but it also gets much worse for the rest of us
00:23:47because as a result, we end up with this false polarization, right? We feel like we're completely
00:23:53divided and it becomes self-fulfilling. Yes. We lose trust in each other and we become resentful.
00:23:59Now, I want to make sure that I'm unpacking this because I, I think this is so important what you're
00:24:03saying. And it is so important that you really take in, and I'm going to now call you Dr. Todd Rose,
00:24:12what he is saying about the data, because this is something that I have held in my heart that has
00:24:17made me very sad and has also made me pull back and feel discouraged. I've bought into the collective
00:24:25illusion of what the loudest voices you're saying. It's the 10%, the fringe are saying. And I have,
00:24:33presumed that the majority of people believe in this. We're the first generation now as a society
00:24:41that has to deal with collective illusions at scale because of social media. Like it just,
00:24:46you cannot trust your brain to tell you what your group thinks anymore. You can't. And that's a hard
00:24:50thing to overcome. And when you put it into social media environment, even if no, there's no bad actors,
00:24:57just the dynamics of that, the loudest voices will guarantee that you're going to be wrong the longer
00:25:02you spend time on there. Yes. But it gets even worse. So my organization has partnered with other
00:25:07organizations. We've been studying the way in which foreign entities that are trying to disrupt us
00:25:13have built bot armies. Russia, China, they have millions of bots, some of them AI enabled now.
00:25:21And we often think when it's propaganda and manipulation that they're just spreading disinformation.
00:25:27It's not what they do at all. What do they do? The new form of propaganda is the ability to
00:25:31manufacture a collective illusion. So meaning like literally like put you in the matrix of what they
00:25:37want you to believe by just peppering. Intentionally targeting, especially Gen Z,
00:25:42to convince them that their communities believe things they don't. And that need to belong kicks
00:25:48in. I mean, we're talking about, so we know on social media writ large, that roughly one fourth of
00:25:55all the interactions you ever have are with bots and you don't know it. Say that again.
00:26:00One fourth, and that's conservative, one fourth of all your interactions on social media
00:26:05are with bots and you don't know it. And with AI enabled bots, you wouldn't be able to tell.
00:26:11They are so sophisticated. So you just have to be careful to know if you just get to that point and
00:26:16understand this concept of a collective illusion, right? Right. Group think, but you're wrong about
00:26:20the group. So why would you conform? Like if you conform to something your group doesn't want,
00:26:26you're destroying the group you actually care about. So let me just unpack this. I really do
00:26:31think this is critical that a quarter of the content that you interact with online are bots and
00:26:39that you believe that's conservative. Yeah. That the bots are programmed to convince you to believe
00:26:46something that the majority of people do not agree with. And I also will extrapolate that that is why
00:26:55it is more important than ever that you stop conforming and you actually take a step back and
00:27:03you deeply connect with what's important to you and that you find the courage to start speaking up
00:27:09because everybody else is waiting for somebody else to go first. And I believe regardless of how you
00:27:15voted, regardless of what country you live in, there is this deep weariness within families,
00:27:21within communities, within friend groups to even talk about anything because we convince ourselves
00:27:27that they believe what the bots and the 10% loudest voices believe. And they don't, and you're here to
00:27:34tell us that they don't believe that at all. They absolutely do not. I mean, we have the data you can
00:27:38download all of the, we've studied everything from the kind of lives people want to live, the kind of
00:27:43country they want to live in, what they want from education, health care, criminal justice. It is
00:27:48shocking. When you get beyond the social pressure and the distortion, we are unbelievably similar
00:27:55in our aspirations, in our fears, in our desires, but we just don't believe it's true. And so we act
00:28:01accordingly. And to your point, when, when we get weary and we just go silent, it's understandable,
00:28:07but then it becomes part of the illusion, right? That's true because nobody's speaking up.
00:28:12Because nobody's speaking up to the people that matter most to us.
00:28:14It's the fringe reaching, like yelling at each other.
00:28:16Right. And so we all become caricatures of some fringe view that nobody really holds. And so one
00:28:24of the things that I've been the most proud of is, and the reason I, why I wanted to write this book
00:28:28is, you know, you give people a concept and people go, oh, wow, I didn't realize this. And then it
00:28:34opens up the ability to start talking about, well, wait a minute. Like, here's some of the
00:28:38things I think, you know, it's, it's a safe way to have the conversation, but.
00:28:41Well, just even hearing that your data conclusively shows that the majority of people literally agree
00:28:49on the things that they care about and want out of life. Like it makes me go, really? Cause I've
00:28:55been in a duck and cover mode. Like when is this madness going to end? When are we going to reconnect
00:28:59with what matters? Like, I kind of know that everybody agrees, but why isn't anybody,
00:29:03why is there not a reasonable person like, oh, cause I know a reasonable person doesn't want
00:29:06to stand up and get caught in this crossfire. That's why we're all like, okay, when is somebody
00:29:11normal going to pop up and, and show us the way, but you're here to say, we all have the ability
00:29:16to do this. We do. And it's, it, it's only, only we can do this because like, if you think about it,
00:29:21there are people who profit from the illusions. Correct. And especially in a, in a binary political
00:29:26system, there's a lot of benefit to getting people to be more extreme. Right. And locked
00:29:33into an identity where you you'll, you'll fall on that sword because this is, these are my people.
00:29:38Can you share the data on what people actually agree on and care about so that as you're listening
00:29:45and watching, like, this is an incredible episode to send to family members and to send
00:29:50to friends that you feel like you can't talk to anymore because you believe the collective illusion
00:29:56that they somehow don't agree with you on core things. So what does the data say about what people
00:30:03actually care about? So let's, let's take a few things because we can go all day on this, which
00:30:07is pretty incredible. So we studied the American aspirations of Dixie. So this was a U S focused one
00:30:13and we studied, what do you want for the country? And there were dozens and dozens and dozens of
00:30:19possibilities. And what was shocking to me, we found that in the top 10 aspirations for the country,
00:30:27we agreed on eight out of the 10 individual rights. Yep. Uh, we still believe that in free speech,
00:30:33uh, treating each other with respect, uh, having everyone have high quality healthcare.
00:30:39So there's a basic, uh, kind of life we want to live together. And we know that we owe each other
00:30:45certain things to make that life possible. And it turns out we agree on that.
00:30:49Now, as you said earlier, back in the day, we might disagree on how we do it, right? Do you have
00:30:56Medicare for all? Do you have more like Romney care we'd had in Massachusetts? You know, there are
00:31:01different ways that we can debate how to get it done, but it turns out the ultimate aims were
00:31:06shockingly similar on. Well, I find it extraordinarily encouraging to hear that underneath all the noise
00:31:15of the loudest voices and the division and the bots that human beings agree on eight out of the 10
00:31:23things that are the most important things. What did you find about our personal lives? Like how do people
00:31:27want to live and how do we like break us? Tell me the list on what we agree on and then let's unpack that.
00:31:35So probably the single most important study we've ever done that I think has the most implications for
00:31:43society and for individuals is it's called the success index, the success index. And we wanted to
00:31:50know, what do you mean by a successful life for you? What kind of life do you want to live? Nothing's
00:31:57more important than you feeling like you're living the kind of life that you want to live, even if no
00:32:02one else wants to live it, right? That's literally the American dream. That's literally like the key
00:32:07to flourishing. It's the key to social trust. It's the key to everything. Okay. So we did this, I mean,
00:32:14massive private opinion study with the same kind of trade-offs, right? Because you can't have
00:32:18everything in life, right? We had 61 possible attributes for a good life. Okay. So you can pick
00:32:23between 61, everything from having a family to being the richest person, you know, and everything
00:32:28in between. Okay. And then you force the trade-offs in this way that gives you anonymity and plausible.
00:32:33So you have to rank what you want. It's amazing. We can go into details on how they do it. There's
00:32:37some stuff on our site that'll show you. It's really cool, but you can't, you can't game it. It's so good
00:32:42at getting at private views. Okay. So let's talk about what most people see in terms of their top
00:32:49priorities for a good life. It warms my heart. The number one priority for a successful life is I
00:32:57want to do work that has a positive impact on other people. They want to contribute. Okay. In that top
00:33:0410 across all demographics were things to do with relationships, family, character,
00:33:12self-improvement and growth. Okay. In fact, one of the really crazy ones that I think is important is
00:33:19across every demographic in the top 10 was I want to be more engaged in my community.
00:33:26Now, here's what's interesting. We also measure how well you're achieving on these different things
00:33:31involved in your community was the lowest achieved of all top 10 priorities for your life. In fact,
00:33:37more people reported being debt-free than involved in their community at the level they want to.
00:33:44I mean... What does that tell you as a researcher? It tells me that, well, we've lost that civic layer
00:33:50of society that gave us the way to engage and contribute, and they don't know how to do it.
00:33:55And by the way... And then if you also assume... So that's what we're doing... That nobody agrees with
00:33:59you and everybody... So this is what, when we ask, so what do you think most people see as a
00:34:05successful life? Same trade-off things. It flips entirely. They think everyone is obsessed with
00:34:11status, wealth, getting into the most prestigious school. The top thing that people think everyone
00:34:18else cares about is being famous. Really?
00:34:22Okay. In private, it's dead last. Now, let me unpack why that really matters, okay? Because there's an
00:34:30important thing about collective illusions, which is this. This generation's illusions
00:34:34tend to become next generation's private opinion, if you don't do something.
00:34:39Say that again?
00:34:39This generation's collective illusions tend to become next generation's private opinion.
00:34:46So let's use the example of fame. Because young kids don't know that we're lying.
00:34:50So young kids look to culture, look to media, like look to each other. What do we believe?
00:34:57What do we aspire to? So my colleagues at UCLA have tracked the effects of culture and media on
00:35:03middle school kids for a very long time. Up until a few years ago, the top thing that emerged every
00:35:10year had to do with character. Think like Mr. Rogers kind of stuff, right? Wonderful. A few years ago,
00:35:17it switched to, I want to be famous and it hasn't changed back. I remember they interviewed one kid
00:35:23in the study and he said, I want to have a million followers. I said, okay, for what? And he said,
00:35:27doesn't matter. So it's bad enough when these illusions lead our young kids to pursue dead
00:35:35ends that we know, we know that's not how you live a good life. That's bad enough. But when it starts
00:35:41to become about the fundamental assumptions of democracy, of free society, of our shared humanity,
00:35:48reality, you can see the real danger to us individually and collectively.
00:35:53So if this generation's collective illusion is that the number one aspiration in life is being famous
00:36:03because they have bought into the lie that that's what everybody else prioritizes and values,
00:36:11that's what everybody else thinks matters. How does that impact the next generation when it comes to
00:36:17their private opinion? So, because again, they don't know it's a lie. Yes. And they're looking
00:36:22to society to tell them initially what to value. Like we're social species. Yes. We internalize the
00:36:27norms, the aspirations. What does it mean to succeed? And they will internalize that as, well,
00:36:34that's what I believe. I mean, they genuinely believe it. They're not lying. The kids aren't lying.
00:36:39They'll learn the hard way again, just like we all have that that's a really bad way to think about
00:36:43living a good life. But that's really sad. I mean, it has to come to that. Um, and the, at the end of
00:36:50the day, like what's so important about this, and we can talk about why, when it comes to collective
00:36:55illusions, it's about individuals. It's about authenticity. Authenticity is the kryptonite
00:37:01of collective illusions. Silence is never the answer. Authenticity always is.
00:37:06So is the reason why so many people are miserable as they're chasing success is because they're
00:37:13chasing a version of success that they believe other people have. And let, let's be fair to all
00:37:18of us. We want to be successful on our own terms. And we also would love to be recognized for that.
00:37:25But for what? So if I think being successful is finding fulfillment and doing something like
00:37:30literally most people's view of success is getting meaning in their life by contributing to the lives of
00:37:35other people. That's literally if I could sum it up, right? Well, I want to do that, but I would also
00:37:40love that you recognize that I do that. And it's valuable, like nothing wrong with wanting society
00:37:46to recognize my accomplishments, my aspirations and validate them. Yeah. The slippery slope is I can,
00:37:53without thinking, just like with your drinking example, where you're like, I didn't even think
00:37:56about it. And suddenly I'm having a glass of wine. Yes. Without thinking about it, we can easily slip
00:38:01into wanting their affirmation first and corrupting what we choose to do as a result. And I'll give
00:38:10you why this matters. In our research, we linked achievement on that success index to life satisfaction.
00:38:17Like how, how happy are you with your life? Here's what was amazing. To the extent that you were
00:38:22achieving on your private priorities. And just to make sure I'm tracking with you, people publicly say,
00:38:29I want the fame. I want the house. I want the car. I want the fancy car, the biggest house.
00:38:34But what secretly matters to you is your family, your friendship, my community, being a good person.
00:38:41If you achieve on those, it directly increases life satisfaction. In fact, just if you directly
00:38:47achieve on the things that are private. Yes. And here's, here's the thing. It was such a big effect
00:38:52because people are only achieving about 50% of their own priorities right now. If you bump that up by
00:38:57just 20 points, which is actually not hard when what we care about is being a good person and being
00:39:02involved in your community, anyone can do that, right? Yeah. It led to an increase in life
00:39:07satisfaction that was the same as doubling your salary. Wow. Okay. So it's a big deal, but now flip
00:39:14it around. No amount of achievement on what you think other people value increases life satisfaction
00:39:21at all. It is an absolute dead end. I mean, so this is what I say, this sort of personal success,
00:39:27I think is the most important illusion we've ever found because it completely corrupts your own life.
00:39:34It leads to misery, right? And it's the one illusion that only you can solve. You have the power right now
00:39:42to solve that one, right? You don't need anyone's permission to start making different choices about
00:39:47the life you live. To get honest with yourself about what privately matters and to stop obsessing
00:39:54about what you think everybody else thinks, because you're here to tell us.
00:39:59All of that is an illusion. What you think other people think isn't even what they privately believe.
00:40:05The group doesn't even believe the thing that you're about to conform to. And so when you do it,
00:40:11and enough of us do it, we literally destroy the very group that we care about.
00:40:15And when you listen, and that's why I love this conversation,
00:40:19you're being reminded of the things that privately, you know, deep down are true,
00:40:25and that you can, from this moment forward, start living your life with the truth because the data
00:40:32shows it. Ask yourself, how would you behave if you knew for sure that this thing was an illusion?
00:40:39If you knew for sure your group didn't believe the thing that this fringe is just shouting at you?
00:40:44Well, you'd probably be talking to your friends more. You'd probably be involved in your
00:40:48community. You'd probably wear what you want to wear. You'd probably speak up more. You know,
00:40:53because what happens when you recognize so much of the noise is noise and 80% of us, based on the
00:41:02eight out of 10 data that you have been crunching, really want the same things. We may disagree a little
00:41:09bit on how to achieve it, but we want the same things. And the kryptonite you said to exploding
00:41:16all of this noise is you personally starting to make decisions day by day, conversation by
00:41:27conversation, moment by moment, that really align with those deeper things that you want for yourself.
00:41:33Because this is how we live our lives and the illusion that's like darkening our doorstep here,
00:41:38because if you look at the research on what happens when we self silence. So let's look at the downside
00:41:44of it and then look at the upside of being authentic. The downside of self silencing is shocking. Okay.
00:41:50So research that followed longitudinally people who were self silencing and people who weren't
00:41:55self silenced. Self silencers actually have dramatically higher rates of cardiovascular disease,
00:42:03strokes, high cholesterol, everything. And there's a mechanism for it, which is basically when you're
00:42:09self silencer or misrepresenting your views, you get this cognitive dissonance, you know, this kind of
00:42:14like, I know I'm not being honest, cortisol levels elevate and they stay elevated. And cortisol is good in
00:42:21the short term, when you're under threat, and absolutely toxic breaks down blood vessels,
00:42:26everything. The study I'm referring to actually tracked women who have much higher rates of self
00:42:31silencing, and just found when you look at all the gaps in mental health issues, there's usually a
00:42:36gender gap, right, eating disorders, depression, anxiety, autoimmune disorders. When you control for
00:42:44rates of self silencing, the gender gap disappears. This is a big deal. This is a big deal for
00:42:51your physical health. What does that mean to the person listening, who knows that you're the person
00:42:58that stays silent in meetings, you're the person that doesn't rock the boat. And so you're in conflict
00:43:03with your privately held beliefs with yourself. Yeah. And you're living like that. And what you're
00:43:09saying is, based on the research, women do this more than men. And there's lots of reasons why. But in the
00:43:16data, when you look at people who are self silencers, it has massively negative health outcomes. But when
00:43:24you remove the gender piece, when you remove the whose self is the self silencing, the effect of that,
00:43:29Yes, it turns out there isn't a gender gap in those things. It's about self silencing. Like, that's not
00:43:35everything, right? There's lots of reasons why we can end up with anxiety. But I think the reason I say this
00:43:40is that when we self silence, I think we tend to think that it's sort of benign, right? It's not
00:43:46much of a cost. Yeah, I don't, I don't feel so good. But I look, I get to fit in. What I want to show you
00:43:52is, no, there is a profound cost to your physical health, right? There is a cost to your psychological
00:44:01health. I mean, self silencing is correlated with anxiety, depression, eating disorders, all these things.
00:44:07Um, and there is a cost to humanity, right? In the false polarization, the distrust, the resentment
00:44:16that is pervasive in society today, and democracies do not survive this kind of threat. And I will say
00:44:23one thing, which is, you know, one of my favorite, uh, psychologists, the humanist Carl Rogers said,
00:44:31all of problems in society from nations against nations, groups against groups boil down
00:44:37to individuals at war with themselves. When we start to misrepresent our views, when we self silence
00:44:45to fit in, we're at war with ourselves. You're creating this war internally because you're forcing
00:44:52yourself to stay silent on something you don't agree with. That's right. So you're internalizing
00:44:57all the downside, and you don't recognize it. And it's funny is we don't connect those dots. We start
00:45:02seeing our health start to fail. We see our, our mental health start to deteriorate. And we look
00:45:08for all these reasons. I don't think it's coincidental. I don't think it's the only cause,
00:45:11but I don't think it's coincidental that our youngest generation that was literally born online
00:45:15has this skyrocketing anxiety and mental health challenges that are real. And they're coming from
00:45:21a number of places. Right. But for sure. The one we control. Because we know in our data
00:45:26that Gen Z is self silencing at the highest rate of any demographic that we've ever studied.
00:45:32Why is that? Because they're online more than anybody else.
00:45:35And how does being online all the time reinforce this self silencing?
00:45:41Because when I'm in person, I get a lot more cues. First of all, I know they're real people.
00:45:45Like I know a lot of them. When I'm online, I'm going, I'm getting inundated with likes,
00:45:52with stuff pushed to me repeatedly. I'm like, and remember your brains going loudest voices
00:45:57repeated the most are the majority. And so on almost everything, especially when you're in
00:46:02those formative years, what do I believe? Who am I? What do I aspire to? They're being shaped
00:46:10by illusions in ways that none of us have ever really experienced. Those of us that at least
00:46:15remember a time when there wasn't a social media. And again, I'm not saying social media is bad.
00:46:20It's got a lot of upside, but like any technology, there's always a downside.
00:46:24And if you don't recognize the downside, you're going to live it.
00:46:27I think as a parent, my heart just collapsed because I see that paralysis
00:46:35in self-expression, this like fear that it's going to be cringy, fear that somebody is going
00:46:41to judge it, fear that, you know, you're not going to get the likes that you want, which is all
00:46:46driven by conformity, which then has you, A, silence yourself, and then B, now operate online
00:46:56in a way that you think gets people to like you because we're wired for conformity.
00:47:02So how do you break this given that we're wired for conformity and we understand how self-silence,
00:47:09because self-silence at work, you don't talk in meetings. Self-silence at works, you don't raise
00:47:14problems. You don't talk about the mistakes that happened and how you solved them. Self-silence,
00:47:19you start to operate the way everybody else does because you think that's the way you get ahead.
00:47:23That's right. And by the way, when everyone starts doing that and starts conforming,
00:47:27groups lose their vitality. Groups lose their purpose, right? The purpose of a group is not
00:47:32blind conformity. It's that we're better together. It's that we can cooperate. It's that we can exchange
00:47:38ideas, right? That I can learn from you and be like, maybe I'm wrong, but that loses its function.
00:47:45And it just becomes this blind tribalism where we're just like, now who's our enemy? Okay,
00:47:50we're good because they're losing. It's just, it's, it's pretty horrific. The, the trick is,
00:47:55is if you care about living a good life, authenticity is everything. And by the way,
00:48:01let me just be clear. Authenticity doesn't mean you even know all the facts about yourself. It's that
00:48:05you are acting in accordance with who you believe you are in that moment. That's the win. It doesn't
00:48:12mean you're right. Give me an example. So I could, I could believe that I care about football. It's
00:48:19my preference. I love it so much because you know, my mom taught me it. It matters. I do actually care
00:48:24quite a bit about it. Like, and, and so I express myself that way. All right. I follow the Patriots.
00:48:29It's a little tough right now, but you know, we'll get back. Um, but let's say I, turns out I
00:48:37buy season tickets and I go and I'm like, oof, actually, I don't, turns out I don't actually
00:48:42like football anymore, or maybe I never did. I just thought I did. Okay. It wasn't about being
00:48:48accurate. It's that the choice I made at the time was consistent with who I believe I am.
00:48:54All the benefits of, of, of authenticity accrue from that, not from being accurate.
00:48:59So in other words, you buying the Patriot tickets is an authentic decision. It aligns
00:49:05with what you believe to be true. You going and sitting there and freezing your rear end off while
00:49:10you sit on a sleeping bag, you know, in the middle of January, watching a game in an open stadium.
00:49:15Quite literally.
00:49:15Yes. And you're like, uh, I don't think I like this anymore.
00:49:19Yeah. And that is also an authentic decision. Yeah.
00:49:22I had the same experience. I grew up skiing, love skiing, love skiing with my parents,
00:49:25love skiing in Northern Michigan. Then I didn't ski for a while. Then I married a guy who's a ski
00:49:30racer and you know what I learned? I don't like skiing that much. And you know, I can tell you an
00:49:36opposite one, golf, hate golf, no time for golf. Don't care about golf. Didn't get golf. Don't
00:49:40understand why people watch golf. Then all of a sudden I'm riding on a golf cart with my husband
00:49:45and we're chatting and talking because I just want to spend some time with them that I'm doing
00:49:50with my parents. And I'm like, wow, it's kind of beautiful out here. Wow. We're talking a lot.
00:49:56Guess what? I'm now thinking I might want to play golf. Yeah. And that's authentic.
00:50:00Correct. Because remember what we don't want is for you to stop growing and changing. So at any moment,
00:50:06you have a set of beliefs about yourself. Yeah. And as long as they're aligned with who you believe
00:50:10you are, you get all the benefits of authenticity, which they are incredible. A level of confidence that
00:50:15will just blow your mind, right? Not arrogance, just a deep confidence in yourself and your ability
00:50:20to make decisions. People who are authentic actually have higher levels of viewing the world
00:50:26as positive some, which it is. There's enough and we can grow the pie, not just materialistically,
00:50:32but psychologically and spiritually, right? Like your success does not hurt me. It actually benefits me.
00:50:40We can all win. But more importantly, authentic people have phenomenally better relationships.
00:50:47Because obviously, right? Because here's the thing, as we said a while back, we want belonging.
00:50:53What we end up giving into is fitting in. What is the difference between belonging and fitting in?
00:51:00Belonging is when you are recognized, accepted, and even loved for who you are. So you have to do that
00:51:09for yourself first. But because no one's going to do that for you. But when you're in groups,
00:51:14and we've all felt this, right? Like me with my grandmother, I knew I was good enough. Like flaws and
00:51:22all, it didn't matter. Like I didn't have to be somebody else, even in a small way for her to love me.
00:51:30When you have that kind of relationship, there's nothing better in the world. Okay? Fitting in
00:51:36is you accept me if. You accept me if. If I like the things you like. If I do the things you want me
00:51:46to do. If I decide to be a computer scientist instead of an artist. So many of our relationships
00:51:52are built on that kind of if. And you know, just like, um, when you're not physically healthy,
00:52:00you forget what it feels like to be healthy. When we're used to fitting in, we forget what
00:52:06it feels like to truly belong. And I'll say this, and I'll say this to anyone listening or viewing,
00:52:11you deserve to belong. You should not accept the status of just fitting in. It's not good enough.
00:52:20It doesn't lead to the place that you want it to lead to. And it causes a lot of harm to you and society.
00:52:25What is the first step? Because I think as you're listening,
00:52:32what you just said is both a wake up call and it can be a little crushing to your soul when you
00:52:40recognize your whole life. All you've tried to do is fit in.
00:52:42Yeah. And I know that everybody wants to feel like their authentic self. Everybody wants to be
00:52:49proud of themselves. Like you want to lay your head down on the pillow at night and know that you did
00:52:54the best that you could. You made the best decisions that you could, that you're proud of how you showed
00:52:58up, that you had good intentions. That is the gold standard that you, you know, it was a good day
00:53:06because you tried the best that you could to be a good person. And that starts with you being
00:53:11making good decisions for yourself and not self silencing to fit in.
00:53:16Here's the important part about authenticity. It is a process. It's not a destination. There's
00:53:22no such thing as you could put all the work you want in right now. And you're like, I'm done.
00:53:27That's not how it works. Because a flourishing life is one where you grow and change and discover
00:53:33and all that stuff. So even if you were a hundred percent right, right now, if you lock that in,
00:53:38you'd be inauthentic in the future. So the things that people need to understand is,
00:53:43again, it's never too late. This is what's amazing. All the benefits of authenticity,
00:53:47the research shows, like they accrue very quickly to you, no matter how old you are,
00:53:52no matter where you're starting from. Um, it's, it's pretty amazing. You just have to get started.
00:53:57Okay. And here's the thing. There's, there's two things from my perspective.
00:54:01Um, the first is getting a handle on what you think you really believe.
00:54:05How do you do that? When you're like been gaslit by all the noise.
00:54:10There's a very simple, uh, step that I've used and I've shared and people have used and it's worked.
00:54:16Ask yourself why on things you believe you believe, because when they're your honest beliefs
00:54:21that you've arrived at, you know why I'll give you an example. I have a deep commitment,
00:54:27like probably most people to human rights. It might be the most important concept to me of
00:54:33anything in the world that every individual has moral worth and we are equal to one another. And
00:54:40we are never, ever a means to someone else's ends. That's how I want to be viewed and treated. That's
00:54:45how I will view and treat other people. Human rights flows from dignity. Okay. So I know for sure,
00:54:52I believe that, but you'll be shocked at how many things you think you believe are just the norms
00:54:58of your society that you've never really questioned because you want to fit in. For me, um, didn't do
00:55:05very well in school. And we can, uh, that that's a understatement. I fell out of high school with a 0.9
00:55:10GPA 0.9. That's possible. You have to work really hard to do that poorly. You know, I ended up failing
00:55:16out, um, a couple of months later, my girlfriend at the time who was my wife for 29 years found out
00:55:22she was pregnant and this is rural Utah. It was not, not something one does in rural Utah.
00:55:28We were on welfare. We ended up with two kids, uh, by the time I was 20 doing a string of minimum wage
00:55:35jobs. I mean, we had a paper route at 4 AM to supplement our income. We were selling blood
00:55:42plasma, you know, all the things you have to do. Um, and recognizing rock bottom, I was working at what
00:55:51was circuit city, which they've gone out of business now. Uh, and on my lunch break, I didn't
00:55:56have any money. So I went over to Barnes and Noble and I was perusing the self-help section. I had
00:56:01like no self-esteem, no, you know, I'd lied to myself a lot. Um, I knew, I knew something had to
00:56:08change. And I happened upon a book called the six pillars of self-esteem when Nathaniel Brandon said,
00:56:15self-esteem is not something you can directly act on. It's the alignment of your beliefs and your
00:56:20behavior. And if your behavior and beliefs don't align, you won't respect yourself. Why would you?
00:56:26But this was the nugget for me that completely changed my life.
00:56:32I had always assumed that my beliefs were my beliefs and that my behavior was what needed to
00:56:38change. But this book told me that's not true, that you may not actually believe the things you
00:56:46believe that you believe. And in my case, it was religious in nature. I had tried so hard
00:56:52to align my behaviors to a set of beliefs that came from my religion. And I just failed a lot.
00:56:59I know those behaviors weren't bad behaviors. They were just inconsistent.
00:57:04And I thought, well, wait a minute. It could be my beliefs that are the thing that's causing the
00:57:09problem. And so I spent a lot of time thinking about, well, why do I believe this? And I realized I
00:57:13didn't believe. And once I recognized that and started on the path of thinking about what is it,
00:57:19who am I? What do I believe? Um, things got a lot easier, a lot easier.
00:57:25Why?
00:57:25Because suddenly I knew the root problem. I was constantly trying to get my behavior to align,
00:57:31just like if you're trying to conform to a group, constantly trying to, what am I supposed to do now?
00:57:36What do we do? Well, how do I dress? What do I, what do I drink? You know, what career do I choose?
00:57:42And once that I had permission to start questioning my own beliefs,
00:57:46I was able to get on a different path. Um, and it never would have changed without that.
00:57:52I think that's super profound. I think it's also crazy inspiring that you went from there
00:57:58to becoming a graduate school professor at Harvard and now running a think tank and doing
00:58:03this deeply important work. And I was so excited to have you on because I fundamentally refuse to
00:58:10believe that we are this divided. Yeah. I fundamentally refuse to believe that people
00:58:15are unreasonable or lack character. I also fundamentally refuse to give that much power
00:58:22to all the noise. Right. And you know, one of the things that I, I want to hover on
00:58:28the authenticity piece, because when somebody walks into a room that is very much authentically themselves,
00:58:38whether they have on just a cool outfit or they have, uh, energy about them, or there's a kindness
00:58:46to them, whatever it may be, you feel it. The energy of that is unbelievable. It is
00:58:52intoxicating. And, and, and it's not a level of arrogance. There is something that, that I truly believe
00:59:00that we're all yearning for it and we're looking for someone to give us the permission.
00:59:08That's right. And, and they just, they're not trying to get you to do something. They just,
00:59:12I'm going to be me, you be, you put it in different terms, like let them, let me. Right. And they're,
00:59:16they're, they're the embodiment of that. Some things happen because we so deeply want that.
00:59:22We gravity toward the energy there is real. Right. So how do you cultivate that energy?
00:59:27You mentioned let them and let me, and you also, when we were talking said, that is a tool
00:59:34that really helps you apply this, this research and this data that let them like, why don't you
00:59:40explain it? Because how can you use those two words, let them. And those two words, let me
00:59:46me as a way for you to start to become more authentically yourself.
00:59:52Well, this is why I was so excited to talk to you because my scientific research, the work we do at
00:59:56Populous, my think tank is, I would say what we've uncovered is the science behind, let them, let me.
01:00:04We talked a lot about the conformity and all the problems there, but also the broader societal
01:00:08consequences of not doing that. Wow. Right. So what do we know about how we shatter illusions,
01:00:14how we get back to authenticity and it's the, the practical stuff you need to do to get on that
01:00:21path. When I looked at it, when I read your book, I was like, okay, this, if you just do this, it's
01:00:27not, it's not easy. It's simple, but it's not easy. Right. And so bringing it to a level of getting
01:00:33people on that journey. Again, authenticity is a journey. It's process. It's not a destination.
01:00:38You can start anytime, anywhere, no matter how old you are, no matter what your circumstances.
01:00:43Right. Then if all we did, and we'll tell it, I'll tell you why, if you lean into let them,
01:00:51I mean, you've framed a lot and I think it's right around how miserable we get when we try
01:00:55to control everybody else, but it goes a little further, right? Because as we start to participate
01:01:00in that sort of like, you should believe what I'm saying too. And what's funny about collective
01:01:07illusions. And this is one of those, like, I could not believe this. So once you start lying about your
01:01:11views, the research is pretty clear. You start to lean into that. You become an enforcer of it.
01:01:17Because you don't want to admit you're wrong.
01:01:19Yes. And because you always think people are going to find me out.
01:01:22Because I know I'm lying. It's called the illusion of transparency. They think everyone
01:01:26can tell that I'm not really a true believer. And so it turns out that people who lie about their views
01:01:33have a high probability to become enforcers of that view on other people. I'll give you a concrete
01:01:37example. Like if I hear, every time I hear a pastor who's anti-gay now, I'm like, they're probably gay.
01:01:44The number of times that just turns out to be true. I'm like, yeah, you're protesting a bit much,
01:01:49right? But like, once you're hiding that part of yourself, you start to become the person that's
01:01:54literally leads the witch hunt to prove like, no, look, I'm a true believer. And so don't be that
01:02:00person, right? Because like the, the let them part of it is the more you're seeking to control their
01:02:06people, not just their behavior, but their beliefs, you are leading them down a path of self-silencing
01:02:13that will be catastrophic for them. But now you also know it's catastrophic for all of us.
01:02:18Well, the other application that I see based on everything you shared is that very profound
01:02:24difference between feeling a sense of belonging versus an obsession with trying to fit in. And
01:02:33to me, if you could speak a little bit about how the let them and the let me really gives you a tool
01:02:40to notice those moments where you're so scared of other people's opinion or you're so seeking fitting
01:02:46in that you cut off access to authenticity and belonging. That's right. And so we did the let them side,
01:02:53right? Because you are literally making it less likely that the people around you can live
01:02:58authentic lives. You talked about this so well in the book, like, like the kid's like, really? Okay.
01:03:03For the, for the dance you're going to really, you haven't really, okay. They want to wear certain
01:03:07things. They want to do these things. It's like, let them, because part of that is let them be their
01:03:12authentic self. Oh, I just, yes. Yes. Your need to control is actually teaching other people that they
01:03:19have to fit in and you are squashing somebody else's authenticity. Exactly right. So it's how
01:03:25you stop yourself from making people conform. Correct. And then you flip it around and the let me,
01:03:31I deserve to be authentic. And so that flip side, if I'm going to give that same grace to other people
01:03:37now, I owe it to myself to give myself that same grace. I deserve to belong. I don't need to settle for
01:03:45sit for fitting in. Right. I deserve all the benefits that come from being my truest self.
01:03:53Um, and I shouldn't compromise that just because I believe other people want something different.
01:03:59And again, when collective illusions are layered into that, that thing you're about to like,
01:04:03give up your authenticity for, they don't even want like, so what are we doing?
01:04:08I just want to say, I was kind of blown away because when I first started using,
01:04:15let them first, it was really to stop trying to control everybody so that I wasn't so stressed
01:04:21out all the time. Right. But then it became very clear how my default was to fit in. My default was
01:04:27to seek approval. My default was to make everybody else happy. My default was to buy into the collective
01:04:33illusion and allow that to dictate what I do or don't do, like navigating your life based on
01:04:40everybody else. And you're telling us all of the things that you believe everybody else believes,
01:04:46they're largely wrong. And we're all desperate for somebody to say, Hey, it's time to just stand up and
01:04:54be authentic. It's time for you to stop trying to fit in. And it's time for you to make decisions and live
01:04:59your life in a way that really aligns with you. And I hadn't thought about the let me part truly as
01:05:05a tool for authenticity and courage in that way. And that's what, that's, that's how it resonated
01:05:09with me, which isn't that funny. And if you read all of our research and you realize, wait, so if I
01:05:16let them be their authentic self and we do that at scale, what kind of society would we have?
01:05:24Well, see, I worry that if we let people be their authentic self,
01:05:29that we would have a runaway train of people who are selfish and not conscientious and who are
01:05:36chasing fame and profit and trashing human beings for all the tech giants and that bots would run the
01:05:43world. And what you're now teaching me is that my belief that if I just let people run wild,
01:05:51the worst of humanity would rise to the top. And you're telling me, Mel,
01:05:55not true. What is true?
01:05:57Go back to the success index.
01:05:59Okay.
01:05:59The private highest aspirations we have for the lives we want to live ourselves. Okay. Remember top
01:06:07trade-off priority. I want to do work that has a positive impact on other people.
01:06:12I want to be trustworthy. I want to have a family. I want to be good to other people.
01:06:19I want to be involved in my community. I want to achieve on things that matter. I want an education.
01:06:26I want these things. Like, this is what people would do if we leaned in to let them
01:06:33let me. And the only reason we're afraid of it is because we've fallen for the illusions,
01:06:37right? We've, we've been with this illusion for a while. And so we're like, oh, I mean,
01:06:41it's funny. We asked people about trust privately. Are you trustworthy? 93% of people said,
01:06:48of course I'm trustworthy. And I want that. It matters to me. What do you think other people would
01:06:53say? Oh, no, no, no, no. Other people don't care about being trustworthy. They're not trustworthy.
01:06:58And you're like, yeah, it's a massive illusion. And so if I'm looking around thinking other people
01:07:02don't even care about being trustworthy, and I think they all want fame and the zero sum,
01:07:08like winner take all, they will step on my thing to get to me. Why would I want to let them
01:07:16be able to live their authentic lives? Because if that were who they really are, that would be awful.
01:07:22And so what we end up doing is having to control everybody. And that's true in our interpersonal
01:07:26lives that you, you wrote about. It's also true all the way up to our political lives where we've
01:07:31given up on these fundamental values. Like, you know what? You live your life. I'll live mine as
01:07:37long as we're not hurting each other. Like we've lost a willingness to invest in one another because
01:07:43we believe the illusion. Where did all this lack of trust come from? I know you have a story.
01:07:48So we have, um, so social trust, which is trust in strangers, right? The single best predictor of the
01:07:56health and flourishing of democracies. At the end of the day, we talk about trust in institutions.
01:08:00I don't need to trust the government. I need to have confidence that they'll do what they say. So
01:08:06accountability, transparency, the only trust that matters is that we trust each other.
01:08:10Hmm. So it predicts almost everything that matters, uh, collectively. Um, and ever since
01:08:19we implemented, in, in the 1930s in, in the United States, scientific management, Frederick Taylor,
01:08:25which is where we got standardization to everything, everything became standardized. He invented the
01:08:29concept of a manager. So you just do the job I'm telling you, you don't get any say in what you do
01:08:33in the name of efficiency. Every single generation since has had lower social trust in the preceding
01:08:40generation. Right now in America, we have the lowest levels of social trust ever recorded.
01:08:45Now, is that true or is that an illusion? You know what I'm saying? It's true. It's even worse
01:08:49in private right now than it is in public. Oh no. Now here's the good news though. Okay.
01:08:53And this is what matters. If I could wave a magic wand and say, what's the one thing I could change
01:08:57about this country besides, and again, honestly, everybody leaning in to let them and let me, because
01:09:02the illusions would have nowhere to hide. And we'd obviously see that we have a lot in common
01:09:06and that people trusted. It's this illusion of trust. Okay. What's interesting in our data.
01:09:14So when you look across the world, like Scandinavian countries have very high levels of social trust,
01:09:19and you can see the cohesion, the trust in each other, the investment in each other. You only have
01:09:23to get above 50% social trust for that to kick in. When a majority of people believe a majority of people
01:09:29in their society are trustworthy. Yeah. Good things start to happen. Yes.
01:09:33When you dip into like the thirties, it spirals the other way, right? We start to need to control
01:09:39each other. We're, we're in the low, mid thirties right now. Okay. In our data though, in private,
01:09:45here's what I think is fascinating. If you cut the data by whether you're self silencing,
01:09:51people that self silence have the lowest levels of social trust ever. It's they are like in the low
01:10:01thirties percents of people who believe other people can be trusted. Okay. If you're one of the
01:10:06one third that hasn't self silenced, they have levels of social trust that rival Scandinavian countries.
01:10:14So there's something about feeling like you're in a society where you can't even say your opinion.
01:10:19Why would I trust everybody else if I feel like I can't be me? Yeah. So this issue of needing to
01:10:28reclaim an authenticity, it might be the single most important thing you could do to heal your society
01:10:35because it is the fastest way to increase social trust. Well, I can give an example that came to mind
01:10:41as you were talking about plummeting trust. If you have ever had any kind of tragedy hit your community,
01:10:49whether it's a fire or a flood or something else, what happens? Yeah. People reveal who they are at
01:10:55their core. Like you have some illness in a family, family members that are divided on politics that
01:11:02haven't talked for two years all of a sudden come in because it reduces us to just our core values in
01:11:11a moment where it's all hands on deck. It's you're exactly right. Like I had a, um,
01:11:16you know, a couple of years ago, I lost my wife, uh, 20 years and it was unbelievable to see people
01:11:22who I thought I had beefs with. Right. Um, some people we, we'd had challenges. It doesn't matter
01:11:28anymore. There's this common humanity that comes together. Um, and you're right. You see this in
01:11:35these, uh, trauma and tragedy. We reveal who we are. Okay. If we, why is that true? Because,
01:11:41um, the norm around tragedy, right? Yeah. We have norms in this country and other countries
01:11:48that it's all hands on deck. We just rally. That's what we do. Okay. Um, I was a little worried.
01:11:54Some of the last unnatural disasters in the country when the first thing we saw was
01:11:58the politicization of it, the, the blaming right off the bat, but then that, that dissolved pretty
01:12:03quick at the ground level into, we need to help each other because as human beings, we empathize.
01:12:09That's one of our magical traits, right? We can put ourselves in other people's shoes.
01:12:13We can think about how we would want to be treated and we can activate compassion and act on it.
01:12:18When we see people in those times of need, it reveals who, what our real character is.
01:12:24Imagine what it would have been like if the illusion was correct.
01:12:27That nobody cares. We don't trust you. Nobody shows up.
01:12:29Nobody shows up. And the prop, the thing right now, that's not the case,
01:12:34but if we don't recognize this problem and take some responsibility for it,
01:12:39it could become the case. Do you truly believe based on all of this data that if
01:12:47every single one of us as an individual were to really embrace the facts
01:12:57that when it comes to the things that we all value as human beings, we all value the same 80% of things.
01:13:05So we are all so much more alike. We want the same things for ourselves and each other.
01:13:11If we were to operate with that and then we were to go into our day-to-day lives and say,
01:13:17my only job is to let other people be themselves and be who they are and with the presumption
01:13:25that underneath it, they value character. Underneath it, they want meaningful work.
01:13:29Underneath it, they want better for their friends and for their family. That if we operate like that
01:13:38and then we also say to ourselves, my job is to then show up and make decisions
01:13:45with the information I have the best that I can day-to-day that really align what I truly value. Like
01:13:51to give myself that permission and to find the courage to do it, whether it's how you post on
01:13:57social or whether you talk at work or whether you ski or not this season, whether you want to live
01:14:02where you live, whether you want to go to Sizzlers or not, like that you just start to slowly calibrate your life
01:14:11back toward the things that you know deeply matter to you. Like simply volunteering in a place in your
01:14:19community would make you feel more authentic. Yes. Changing your major could make you feel more authentic.
01:14:26Asking your brother or sister for a little help with mom and dad because you've self-silenced
01:14:30would make you feel a little authentic. It doesn't have to do with what they are going to say.
01:14:34That's right. You may have a collective illusion that they're not going to do anything
01:14:38because you think everybody's selfish now, but that's the noise. The truth is deep down,
01:14:44people care about the same things. Like it starts with you. You really believe that that's what's
01:14:50going to turn this all around. Yeah. Let me, let me give you a historical example when I say,
01:14:55because it feels like the problems are too big. Yes. They must require these big solutions. Yes. It's
01:15:01not true. Let me give you an example. As a reformed academic, I'm going to lean into a bigger example
01:15:06just once, but I think it's important. Um, when the problem is a collective illusion
01:15:13and you pursue the right strategy, which is this authenticity strategy, right? It's not about
01:15:17persuading. It's about revealing. It's showing people the kind of social change that can happen
01:15:24at a, how fast it can happen, how big it can happen. The best example of this is the Velvet Revolution
01:15:31in Czechoslovakia. This is puzzled historians for a long time. It happened in 19, late, late eighties.
01:15:38Czechoslovakia had been under communist rule for a long time, just brutal. Other countries had tried to
01:15:43revolt, Hungary, other things like bloody massacres as a result. The Velvet Revolution is famous because
01:15:50it's the only time that people have overthrown a communist regime, uh, without a single person dying,
01:15:56without a single shot being fired. Okay. Wow. And people are like, how does that happen?
01:16:01It's an anomaly. Okay. The best part about it is who led it. And this is how you'll get to the secret
01:16:06of it. There's a person named Voslav Havel. Okay. And I'm going to say right now for everyone listening
01:16:13or watching, if you go online, you can download for free online. He wrote a manifesto about this
01:16:19called the power of the powerless. That is, will chill you to the bones. It will sound like he's writing
01:16:26about our time today. Um, but he, he writes about how he discovered the real problem in their society
01:16:32was this collective illusion. So he's had no military experience. He wasn't a politician.
01:16:40He was a poet and a playwright and he was anti-communist, but he, he decides he writes this
01:16:48play called the garden party. And it was a satire about communism. It was so subtle that the censors
01:16:54didn't even know they were being made fun of. Okay. So he puts it on. It becomes a runaway hit.
01:17:00It's like the Hamilton of the time there. It's sold out every night. He attends every single
01:17:06uh, play and he doesn't watch the play. He watches the audience.
01:17:11And he said, they laughed at all the right parts. They laughed at things that you would not find funny
01:17:16if you truly believed in communism. And he writes in the power of the powerless that he recognizes
01:17:22the fundamental problem was not that the people of Czechoslovakia believed in communism. It's that
01:17:26they believed that they believed it was a collective illusion. I mean, I don't know how he got there,
01:17:31but it's amazing. He figured it out. The solution then was not weapons. It was not even political.
01:17:39It was authenticity. He called it authenticity and personal responsibility. And here's what he did.
01:17:45He said, well, then the answer is we've got to create ways for people to start to be comfortable
01:17:51living in truth again, because we become way too comfortable living in the lie. Okay. So he starts
01:17:56what he called the small works. How do we help people start to lean into their authentic selves in
01:18:03ways that weren't risky to begin with? Literally created a literary magazine so people could publish
01:18:08poetry. They did gardening. They did all these things. People mocked him, mocked him. Like even
01:18:15people who, his fellow revolutionaries were like, this is so naive. You're, they have all the guns.
01:18:20You're going to defeat them with authenticity and personal responsibility. But they did. And here's
01:18:26what's crazy. Nobody saw it coming. The CIA completely missed it. The KGB missed it entirely. Even
01:18:35Havel himself didn't appreciate how fast it could change when it was an illusion.
01:18:41Just a few months before the student protest that led 12 days of protest, government falls,
01:18:47he's interviewed in an international magazine and he's trying to rally the troops. And he's like,
01:18:51look, revolutions take time. You have to be committed. He's like, look, I probably won't even be alive
01:18:58to see the end of this, but I am in it. Right. Three months later, he was the first democratically
01:19:05elected president of a free Czechoslovakia. That's what I mean when I say when, when the problem is
01:19:10an illusion, two things, only we can solve it. It didn't require somebody from on high telling us
01:19:17something. It was the everyday people learning to live in truth in small ways that start to build
01:19:25habit that lead to a, we believe we believe this now. Right. And I think about it. I think about that
01:19:31story all the time. Cause I think, look, if a poet can overthrow communism under a collective illusion,
01:19:38I think what you can do in your own life, I think what we can do together. I promise you
01:19:43the power of the palace, it's free. It's like 80 pages. It is unbelievable. It is never forget,
01:19:51like this thing that you want more than anything to be authentic and you should want it. It's like
01:19:58almost magical in what it does for you. And for us is the thing that you should do for yourself.
01:20:05And again, it is the most important thing you could do to heal society or your family, your family,
01:20:12community, your loved ones, your relationship, marriage. Yeah. It's a journey. Um, you say this
01:20:18all the time, right? I think we, we overestimate what we can do in the short term and we underestimate
01:20:23what can happen more time long term. Yeah. And we also underestimate the power of these small
01:20:28micro changes. And you talk a lot in your work about the micro changes. It's all that matters.
01:20:33And it could mean speaking up at work. It could mean going to church this weekend. It could mean
01:20:37volunteering in your community. It could mean picking up a book and getting back into reading
01:20:43fiction instead of scrolling on social media, find the thing that connects you back to who you believe
01:20:49you are right now. And it doesn't have to be these massive life changing things. In fact,
01:20:54it rarely ever requires that. Again, if you can literally transform a tyrannical society into a free
01:21:03society on the back of authenticity, like you can change your life. What is one thing that you could
01:21:12challenge us to do based on all the research, the power of authenticity to do this week? What would
01:21:20it be? This is going to sound basic, but it's do something. Um, you've got to get that action bias.
01:21:28Again, listen to Voslov. It doesn't have to be huge, but find those places where, you know,
01:21:33you've been going along, you know, you really didn't agree. Could be eating. Like what are some
01:21:38of the simple places where people do this? I'm talking literally like, go back to the very
01:21:41beginning. No, I'm not actually drinking tonight. You know what I mean? Little things. Um, hey,
01:21:47are we sure we want to go to that restaurant? Yep. Um, just stuff that like, I'm talking about
01:21:52your preferences. They don't have to be these deep, profound, like, let's have a political
01:21:57conversation about it. It could, but just, you know, first of all, you know it when you're not
01:22:01being authentic. Like, so I don't have to tell you. So true. It's so true.
01:22:05It doesn't, it's just, and just say, look, I'm going to commit to one act of authenticity.
01:22:10And I would say, find the smallest meaningful act. And I'll tell you, remember that reward
01:22:16signal I talked about with conformity? Yes.
01:22:18It also works with authenticity. Tell me more about that.
01:22:21So when people who desire authenticity believe they are acting on it, and we've seen this with,
01:22:26with neuroimaging studies and everything, they get the same reward response because your brain's like,
01:22:31that, do more of that. And then you get the anticipation of it. And one small act leads to
01:22:38another leads to another. It becomes habit. Then it becomes your identity. It becomes who you are
01:22:44and you won't even realize it happened. And then you'll become the person that everyone looks at
01:22:51and goes, I want to be like them. I want to be around them. You, the energy you bring into a room.
01:22:57And the thing is, it's absolutely contagious. Not only because you create permission for other
01:23:02people to unbutton their table, right? Are mine buttoned? I was like, did I button them back up?
01:23:07Because, because we know this from the research that happiness itself is contagious.
01:23:14When the people around you within your network increase their happiness,
01:23:18you get about a 25% boost for free. Become that person. And if you worry too much about the end
01:23:26goal, it feels insurmountable. I remember thinking when I was like minimum wage, welfare, two kids,
01:23:35no high school diploma. If I tried to think about what life might be like in the long,
01:23:40it just seems insurmountable. All I thought was, what's the next step that I can take?
01:23:45And then you take another step. And for me, and I don't mean this to sound arrogant,
01:23:53it took seven years from when I was felled out of high school to when I got into Harvard for my
01:23:59doctorate. Another seven years before I was a professor. Like that time's going to go past no
01:24:06matter what you do. And when you think about those sort of time horizons, you know, five years is going
01:24:11to go by whether you like it or not. And all the fear you feel, first of all, I'll say most of it is
01:24:20completely unfounded. Now you know why it's a prison in our own minds. We're at war with ourselves.
01:24:27But whatever fear you feel, remember, you know, something's wrong right now.
01:24:33Like the status quo in your own life is not good enough. You know that you deserve better than that.
01:24:41That time's going to pass. Just start the small acts, get on that path of authenticity. And I promise
01:24:48you, you are, you won't even recognize yourself.
01:24:51Todd Rose, what are your parting words?
01:24:55It's easy for individuals just living their life, trying to make ends meet day to day. You barely
01:25:01have enough time to do anything for yourself. The problems in our society seems so big,
01:25:08so insurmountable that there's like an apathy that sets in because what could I possibly do?
01:25:16It's also exhausting.
01:25:17It is exhausting because it's exhausting in part because we don't know what to do.
01:25:22We feel like nothing we could do would ever matter and we feel helpless.
01:25:29It's not true. Like at my core, I believe it, but I also have the data to back it up.
01:25:35You matter more than you could possibly know. That's true in general, but it is particularly true
01:25:42when the problems of our society are related to collective illusions.
01:25:45You have a role to play. Do it for yourself. Your life will be immeasurably better. You will,
01:25:55like you and I both know, I pinch myself. I'm like, I cannot believe I get to live this life.
01:26:00The same. And I also can't believe how long I spent it trying to fit in and how exhausting
01:26:05and fatiguing it was. How long I gaslit myself saying there's nothing I can do
01:26:10and all the noise is correct when I deeply, fundamentally believe that's not true, that we
01:26:16all kind of are, want the same things. And then when you realize, wait a minute, if I'm just
01:26:22authentically myself, the illusion disappears. Do it for yourself just for that,
01:26:27but do it for us. Todd, I am so grateful. I am grateful that you're doing this work. I am so grateful
01:26:36grateful that you are able to break it down for all of us. And so I just want to thank you for
01:26:43the proof and the permission to believe in the better nature in all of us. And I'm also grateful
01:26:50that just allowing yourself to be yourself and finding the courage to start to point your life
01:26:57back toward the things that you know make you feel like you is actually the answer to all the big
01:27:01problems. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I also want to thank you. Thank you for being here.
01:27:07Thank you for really listening or watching something that will help you be more authentic.
01:27:11And thank you for sharing this more than any other episode. We do have the power to change things. Do
01:27:19not buy into the lies. I really want you to live in the truth. And I love you for being here. And I do
01:27:25believe in your ability to create a better life. And today, after our conversation and everything I
01:27:30learned, I believe in your ability and my ability to create a better world. Alrighty. I'll see you in
01:27:37the very next episode. I'll welcome you in the moment you hit play. And thank you for being here
01:27:41with me on YouTube and watching all the way to the end. And thank you for sharing this episode with the
01:27:46people in your life that you care about. All right. I know you want to watch another video.
01:27:51I would go to this one next, and I'll be there to welcome you in the moment you hit play.
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