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00:00To the Middle East though now and Hamas says it will now study the new Gaza peace plan presented
00:06by Donald Trump and signed off by Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu on Monday in Washington.
00:13The group says it will talk with other Palestinian factions before responding
00:18and Hamas figures within Gaza and those living outside the Strip might not share the same
00:24perspectives. With an outline of the plan they'll be studying, this from France 24's Ellen Gainsford.
00:30Under Donald Trump's 20-point plan for peace in Gaza, the first step would be an immediate
00:37ceasefire. Hamas would then have 72 hours to free all hostages. 48 hostages remain in Gaza,
00:45at least 25 of whom are believed to be deceased. In return, Israel would free 250 Palestinian prisoners
00:54and 1,700 Gazans detained since the start of the conflict.
01:00The plan would see Israeli forces perform a gradual staggered retreat from Gaza. Initially,
01:06the Gaza Strip would be governed by a technocratic, apolitical board of peace made up of Palestinians
01:12and international experts, directed and presided over by U.S. President Donald Trump.
01:19The former British Prime Minister Tony Blair would also play a part in this organization.
01:23Hamas would be banned from any role in governing Gaza, while Hamas members would benefit from an
01:30amnesty if they disarm and agree to peacefully coexist with Israel. The framework includes plans to invest
01:37in Gaza and rebuild the devastated territory. As soon as a text is signed, access for humanitarian aid would
01:44be restored, overseen by bodies including the United Nations and the Red Cross. An international
01:51stabilization force with the backing of Arab states would keep the peace. In the long term,
01:57the Palestinian Authority would be allowed to take control of governing the territory after certain
02:03reforms. And the plan leaves the door open for an eventual Palestinian state. But if Hamas rejects the plan
02:10or does not follow through, Trump says Israel would then have U.S. backing to, quote,
02:15finish the job of destroying the threat of Hamas.
02:20And Qatar says it is holding talks with Hamas negotiators and mediators from Turkey today to discuss
02:26that plan. Well, for more on all this, I'm now joined on the line from London by Yossi Meckleberg,
02:32who is a senior consulting fellow at the Middle East North Africa programme at Chatham House
02:38think tank in London. First of all, thank you for your time, Mr. Meckleberg. We're very pleased
02:43to welcome you to the programme. I want to start with where we are now. Today, of course,
02:50the focus is on Hamas. Do you think they will agree to this plan? Is it going to be seen as a surrender?
02:57Good afternoon. Thank you for having me. It's now the ball is in Hamas court, whether they agree to
03:10accept the deal or not. But we have also to remember that while Netanyahu accepted in principle the deal,
03:19it's not so sure how he will go and see that when he's going back to Israel because he has a position
03:29there. But Hamas is, you know, I'm not so sure it can be regarded as a surrender, but in many ways
03:37there are incentives and there is comes with that also keeping it relevant within the Palestinian
03:45political system. You talked a little there about the Israeli side. And I think I'm right in saying
03:55a majority across the political spectrum look set to back this plan. But those ultra-nationalists,
04:03some of them, of course, propping up Netanyahu's government, are still fiercely opposed to it.
04:09Can he persuade them? And does that matter anymore, whether he persuades them?
04:13And he doesn't have necessarily to persuade them because he has a majority within the Israeli
04:21parliament, you know, to pass any decision like this and also within the cabinet. What might be
04:28the case, he won't convince the ultra-nationalist, the messianic elements within his government. He
04:34will have to deal with them. But what might happen that if they decided to leave a government,
04:43he still has a majority in the Knesset majority in cabinet, and then he might decide to call
04:49early election sometimes in early 2026? That's the question. You know, at the end of the day,
04:56we always need to remember that Netanyahu will have the calculation what's best for him to survive
05:01in power. But he will be under immense pressure from the Trump administration and from the rest of
05:07the international community not to develop from what he agreed yesterday.
05:13And precisely on what he agreed yesterday, after that appearance in the Oval Office with Donald Trump
05:21in English, Netanyahu then recorded a separate video in Hebrew for Israelis that he posted on social media.
05:29And in that video, he makes it clear that he remains opposed to a Palestinian state.
05:36Now, the actual plan he has agreed doesn't include a Palestinian state, of course, but it does talk about creating a critical, credible pathway to self-determination and statehood.
05:48Let's take a listen to what he said.
05:52It's not written in the agreement, but one thing was made clear. We will strongly oppose a Palestinian state.
05:59President Trump said that he understands it and he also made it clear that such a move would grant a huge price to terrorism
06:05and endanger the state of Israel. And of course, we do not agree on that.
06:08You know, a lot's being made of this. The fact that Netanyahu seemed to have one attitude in the Oval Office
06:16and then appeared to have a slightly different attitude talking to the Israeli people.
06:22But, you know, does it really matter? Because it seems that neither Netanyahu nor Trump is likely to be in office
06:31by the time any state is going to be seriously discussed. Everything, first of all, depends on the success
06:37of this very short term, this interim arrangement, if indeed that is agreed by Hamas.
06:45You're absolutely right. I think, first of all, we need to look at the first steps.
06:49And the first steps that are very important is the end of this horrific war.
06:53See the hostages returning, the release of many Palestinian detainidos, so prisoners,
06:59humanitarian aid entering on adequate quantities into Gaza.
07:05So I think this is the immediate relief, the terrible humanitarian disaster, allow the hostages to go back to that.
07:13Some normalcy to start there.
07:18Then you need to reboot completely the relations between the Israels and the Palestinians, what happens in Gaza.
07:25As far as I understand, the 20-point talk quite explicitly about Palestinian self-determination
07:33and the Palestinian state after reform within the Palestinian Authority, which means two-state solution.
07:42And Netanyahu can say whatever I like, but he has said that he accepted.
07:45Is he going to try to derail something like this?
07:48I expect him to do so. That's what Netanyahu is doing.
07:52What he said yesterday in the White House is very different, diametrically opposite to what he said only a few days ago to the United Nations General Assembly.
08:02But as you have, you know, neither Trump nor Netanyahu are going to stay in power forever.
08:08I think while Trump is moving towards agreeing to the idea of two-state solution, Netanyahu doesn't have even politically depends who he's going to deal with that.
08:18So we expect to see what happens in the next election.
08:22Unless Israel is moving towards accepting that the only way to guarantee its security, its well-being, its prosperity in the long time is two-state solution,
08:32then unfortunately we'll keep seeing the conflict erupt time and again.
08:37You talked there about aid coming into Gaza.
08:44This is part of, you know, the timetable of events.
08:47Aid, unlimited aid would go in, including temporary homes being built very quickly.
08:53So we thought we'd take a quick look at what some Palestinians are saying about this.
08:59We can hear some of their views now.
09:00These are people in the Gaza Strip. Take a listen.
09:03This plan falls in Trump and Israel's favor.
09:08They have interests in Gaza.
09:10They want to end Gaza in any way possible, for gas.
09:13They want to turn Gaza into Trump resorts.
09:15And he wants to finish his plan.
09:18Trump promised yesterday that there will be peace.
09:20He said there will be peace and the hostages will be released.
09:23But we as Palestinian citizens, where are we in this equation?
09:27Who's going to solve our situation?
09:29Who's going to save us from these Zionist crimes?
09:32Who's going to save us?
09:34If they release all the hostages at once, then we're finished.
09:37We're completely done.
09:38And this story of handing over the hostages, where they'll still occupy Gaza and Trump is
09:44planning how to take a hold and turn it into resorts and tourist areas, that's crazy.
09:50I think we should stress, you know, that it's very difficult for people to speak freely
09:54in Gaza, where everything is controlled by Hamas.
09:58But nevertheless, it is very striking that there's very little optimism.
10:01What do you make of it?
10:02I can't blame anyone that is not optimistic right now in Gaza, the hell that they've been
10:09going through in the last two years.
10:1266,000 people killed, the devastation, the starvation, all of it.
10:17You know, it's for Israel.
10:20It's for its own leadership, you know, the Palestinian leadership.
10:24It's for the international community to convince that there is a better future for Gazian people
10:29after this horrific two years.
10:32And the plan talks about, actually, about the reconstruction of Gaza and funds and the
10:37peace board and all of this.
10:39This is kind of the long term.
10:42Everyone knows this will take a long time, quite a few years to rebuild Gaza.
10:49But at least the Gazian people need to see at least the beginning of it.
10:53First with immediate humanitarian aid and then getting Palestinians involved in the process
11:00of rebuilding Gaza.
11:02One of the things that's missing from this plan is how, you know, organically leadership
11:09emerges within, how to help it to emerge within Gaza and the wider Palestinian society.
11:16How Palestinians are the ones that are actually going to dictate their own destiny.
11:21And this is, this is, this is, this is missing.
11:23It talks about much about Israel security, but not as much about Palestinian security.
11:29It has to be acknowledged that at the end of the day, only when there are two viable political
11:35systems there in Israel and the Palestinians that enjoys exactly the same right, then most
11:42people can move forward.
11:43It's true that in the, in the plan, the idea is to have this technocratic, apolitical, as
11:50we heard in our piece at the top there, organization to run civil affairs, to run public services,
11:57another international stability force for peacekeeping, a police force of some kind.
12:04And all of this, above all of this, is to be a board of peace, a so-called board of peace.
12:11Donald Trump to chair that.
12:13And to, you know, a lot of people's surprise, Tony Blair is the other name.
12:18The former UK Prime Minister Tony Blair has been the only other person mentioned as someone
12:23likely to be on this board.
12:24What are your views on, on Trump's role as president of the board of peace and particularly
12:30Tony Blair's involvement?
12:32Well, we know that Trump doesn't have much of a tension span to follow something like
12:39this closely.
12:40He even sort of admitted this yesterday in the Pence conference.
12:45I mean, it's more sending a message that the United States is behind it and the leader
12:52of the United States is behind it.
12:55So I think it's important to show commitment on the American side.
12:59But in the end, I think what is important, that what is now seen as the interim, what
13:03is suggested as the interim, won't become permanent.
13:07But otherwise, it will be seen as some sort of a, of, of, of neocolonialism if the governing
13:14body comes from, from, from the West.
13:17And so Tony Blair, you know, whenever Tony Blair will be suggested, it will cause some controversy
13:23because his involvement in Iraq.
13:25But at the same time, he also bring a lot of experience.
13:28I think he's genuine when he wants to, you know, contribute.
13:31He has gravitas.
13:33He has the support of many Gulf states that if he's involved, probably they would like
13:37to support such an endeavor.
13:39You know, every, every leader that's been 10 years in as prime minister will probably
13:43become, come with some baggage, some better than others.
13:46But if it's, if he's ready and, and he's capable to, to make a difference there for Gaza, I don't
13:54think it should, it should be excluded.
13:57And of course, quite successful with the Northern Ireland peace process back in, in 1998.
14:04Trump, you know, it seems very committed to this, certainly for now, as you say, he has
14:08a, a short attention span.
14:11How much do you think he sort of twisted Netanyahu's arm here to get this thing through?
14:20I think it's enough to see the difference between the, the Netanyahu's speech to the
14:25UN General Assembly last Friday and what he's ready to say that he accept, whether he's
14:31trying to derail it or not, time will tell, shows everyone, demonstrates that there was
14:37some, some are twisting in, in the process.
14:40You know, the, the speech in the, on Friday was very militant, defiant, talking about basically
14:48calling the entire international community cowards for, for recognizing the Palestinian
14:54state, for not joining the war against fundamentalism.
14:58And he was way more sheepish when he was stood next to, to Donald Trump and accepting a plan
15:05that he knows that will cause him trouble with his own coalition.
15:08And large part of it, he didn't support himself.
15:11So you assume that something happened during their meeting.
15:16In terms of Netanyahu's personal future, one of the terms of this deal was the idea of amnesty
15:23for Hamas figures, Israel agreeing not to hunt them down.
15:27What about international, the international arrest warrant for Netanyahu?
15:33You know, the ICC aren't going to simply drop that, are they?
15:38I mean, this is probably will be part of, of, of, of the negotiation.
15:43Who is getting amnesty for, for, for what?
15:45But I think for us, the most important thing at this stage is to ensure that the first stages
15:52of this, of this fire, of this fire, sorry, happening, to see the end of the war, to see
15:58the hostages back, to see humanitarian aid.
16:01You know, when, when then it comes to justice and restorative justice, I think this will have
16:06to wait for the next stages.
16:09We, we, we also know anything, again, also for Israel, is to see an election as quickly as possible,
16:15that we'll see, in any case, the end of Netanyahu's political career.
16:20I, I really believe that he caused enough damage to the state of Israel and, and, and the Palestinians
16:27and the region, and it's time for him to go and leave the political stage.
16:32I'm afraid we're, we're out of time there.
16:34We're going to have to leave it there.
16:35Yossi Meckleberg of the Middle East and North Africa programme at Chatham House Think Tank in London.
16:42Thank you so much for your time.
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