00:00And for more, we speak now with international criminal lawyer William Julier.
00:04Thanks for being with us here on France 24.
00:07Hi.
00:08Your reaction to this verdict?
00:10Nicolas Sarkozy cleared on three of four charges, convicted of complicity in the scheme to funnel millions for his 2007 winning run for president.
00:24And this was the shock, not the conviction, but the sentence.
00:27Five years and possibly starting October 13th, he'll be serving immediately.
00:34That's it.
00:35He has been sentenced for one of the counts, which is the criminal association, l'Association de Malfaiteurs.
00:44This is a very specific offense which enables the prosecution and the courts to go after people
00:55and sentence individuals who have not been proven having committed specific other offenses.
01:08It enables to go after the fact that you are gathering with other people to attempt to try to commit other offenses.
01:20In other words, we couldn't find the money in your accounts that proved that it came from the Libyans, but we did find proof that you were complicit.
01:29Yes.
01:30Does that hold up?
01:31That is what legally it does absolutely.
01:34And this is what I understand the judge explained, which is we do not consider we have sufficient evidence showing that the money that we know came out from Libya
01:44because she considered that they have proof of that, but that they do not have proof that it went to him.
01:50So the illegal financing of his campaign was set aside and that was a not guilty verdict and the taking out of the money from the Libyan state funds, etc.
02:06was also taken out for him, but was retained the fact that he had meetings and that there was sufficient evidence that a pact had been agreed upon.
02:20And this pact was money against favors on various topics.
02:28And that was enough because it was him with other people abroad and here also in France.
02:34Is that the difference?
02:35And that is enough to retain this criminal association, knowing that...
02:41Is that the difference with the case that where former President Chirac was convicted was a kickback scheme involving City Hall in Paris?
02:51The other cases against Nicolas Sarkozy, is it because this is an affair of state involving not just France, but a foreign country, one that was later attacked by a NATO-led coalition?
03:04Is that what makes this case different?
03:07It makes it different because it's an international case.
03:11It's a cross-border case, but I mean, there are dozens of cross-border cases ongoing.
03:18Very often corruption matters in the world, which is ours, which is open and international in relation between states and companies, etc.
03:32And we know that corruption cases are very often cross-border cases.
03:37So, this alone does not make exceptional.
03:41I think it's the fact that there's the addition that Nicolas Sarkozy became president because the wrongdoings the court has just sentenced him for were not committed when he was president.
03:56It was before.
03:57But then he became president and now we're saying it's the first time, which is true, that a former president will go to jail.
04:04Because Chirac, as you rightly said, had been convicted, two years suspended, prison term, so suspended, but it was a prison conviction.
04:15And that did not go anywhere because President Chirac died before he could serve his sentence.
04:21So, political reactions to this running the gamut from those who approve and hail the fact that magistrates have upheld the independence of the judiciary in France to that of Marine Le Pen, the frontrunner for president in 2027,
04:36currently appealing the fact that she's barred from running after the national rally leader's conviction for embezzlement of EU parliament funds.
04:44She put out this tweet where she says that the fact that he's going directly to jail, a cancellation of a double degree of jurisdiction,
04:54and it undermines the great principles of our law, starting with the presumption of innocence.
05:01Being sent to jail before the appeal is heard, that undermines the presumption of innocence or not, William Julier?
05:09It does, but it's in the law. So, if you're not happy with the provisions of the French law, you need to change them.
05:15It does, of course. Anyone who is sent to prison, sentenced, without this sentence being final,
05:24is somehow an attack on the presumption of innocence.
05:29But this is how our system functions. And on the other side, it is difficult to claim that no one could ever be sent to prison pre-trial
05:41or between first instance and appeal if someone is, for example, extremely dangerous.
05:50Any rule of law country needs to have a judicial legal system enabling, in certain cases, that someone is sent to prison
06:01before the final decision is rendered, sometimes three, four, five years after a crime supposedly has been committed.
06:10But Nicolas Sarkozy, is he a dangerous man, a seven-year-old man?
06:15So, we're entering another. My example was not about Nicolas Sarkozy,
06:19but then there are also other criteria in the French legal system and provisions.
06:25You might not want to get into this. It might be too technical.
06:28But judges can explain why they consider that it is needed to send someone to prison.
06:35And then I do hear the point that in some cases, it's unprecedented, and mine have been explained,
06:43that, for example, there was no precedent of, in cases looking like hers,
06:49someone could not run for an upcoming election, not in five years, but coming quickly,
06:58and that she was deprived of that because of this decision that was made by judges
07:06and that she considers is an infringement to her political right to run, which, on the face of it, is true.
07:13But this is all about what is in the law and what are the tools that judges use.
07:20A law that she helped pass, by the way.
07:21But then, judges remain judges.
07:26I believe in the independence of sitting judges in my country.
07:30I know that this is not...
07:31Okay, let me ask you a question, William Julliet, because there was no delay...
07:35Nicolas Sarkozy will go October 13th to hear if he goes to jail immediately or a later time.
07:42There was no delayed sentencing for one of the bag men in this case.
07:46We're talking about Franco-Algerian middleman Alexandre Jury.
07:49I think he was incarcerated in court.
07:52Yes.
07:53Yes.
07:53He didn't even get a delay.
07:54But then other ones...
07:55He didn't get a delay.
07:56Other ones got a sentence that you cannot avoid going to prison in regards to...
08:03So why is...
08:03But they did not get a mandat de dépôt.
08:05They were not incarcerated at all.
08:07And that is the case of Claude Guéant because of his age.
08:12So...
08:12But all these are provisions that exist in the law.
08:14Then the question is, how does the judge pick when one or another, depending on whom
08:20these are going to be applied against?
08:23So that's...
08:24Claude Guéant, you mentioned former government minister.
08:27So someone from on high...
08:28He got six years without mandat de dépôt.
08:31If he appeals, it's suspended.
08:32All right.
08:33Alexandre...
08:34So it's a question of, you know...
08:35Alexandre Jury is a man who made his living as kind of a middleman for deals.
08:40So he's not as high on the pecking order.
08:43Is that why he's going straight to jail?
08:46Listen, I...
08:47I would not comment on why exactly one was requested to go now or not.
08:54I think that Alexandre Jury was considered to have a role which was, as you said, middle,
09:01but possibly instrumental enough to deserve such a harsh sentence.
09:06Then why did they consider that he could not have a couple of weeks to organize his presentation
09:12to the prison?
09:15Did they consider that he was possibly at flight risk?
09:19Maybe they did not consider that Sarkozy would have flight risk.
09:22This is another criterion that exists in French law, which is if you think that there's a risk
09:28of someone escaping, then possibly you want to stop that.
09:33So you grab someone in court.
09:35William-Juliet, there's cases aplenty of former presidents who stand trial.
09:41Peru can tell us something about that.
09:43Currently, Brazil's former president, Jair Bolsonaro.
09:46Let me ask you...
09:47Many countries in the world.
09:49Is there...
09:49And I'm asking for a democracy on the other side of the Atlantic.
09:53Is there a case to be made that former presidents, because they embody the state,
09:59should have some kind of a special status after they leave office?
10:03It's a huge question.
10:06Then it is complicated to consider that because you have been president at one moment in your
10:13life that no one can go after you for acts that you possibly have committed when you were
10:20not president.
10:20The question of immunity is very clear under French law.
10:25For the time you are in office, then no one can go after you.
10:29And that is a rule that is very clear.
10:33Then your question is more complex because it's about what happened before and afterwards.
10:38And I can't imagine that you would...
10:39Do you like the French law?
10:42Listen, I do.
10:43I mean, no law is perfect.
10:45But, I mean, we are in a rule of law country.
10:50And...
10:50When you return to being a private citizen, that's what you are.
10:55Listen, I know enough about so many other places where the rule of law is way more in
11:04danger than in France.
11:05Obviously, nothing is perfect.
11:07And I understand that, as I was going to conclude on that, on this discussion about independence
11:13of judges.
11:14Judges, I think, I believe, but prosecution is a different discussion.
11:19But sitting judges, I believe, are independent.
11:22They're not taking instructions from the government.
11:25This happens everywhere in the world.
11:28So many countries of the world.
11:29We know it's true.
11:30I don't think this happens in my country, in France, and it doesn't happen in many other
11:35democracies.
11:36So that already is good.
11:38It's way better than in these countries where it happens.
11:41But this being said, being independent does not mean that you not have your ideology, your
11:49agenda as a professional, and that you do not push for the strength of your corporation,
11:56which I understand.
11:58And you don't go the way where some other people would like you to go.
12:06And this is also the strength of a democracy, which is that there are clashes, and judges have
12:14their word to say when it comes to what they consider as the protection of the French society.
12:21Sometimes people don't agree.
12:22They appeal.
12:23And when it doesn't work, they make statements in the press.
12:27Nicolas Sarkozy, who had a particularly fractious relationship with magistrates when he was
12:32in office.
12:33So that is maybe something also he's paying for now.
12:36With Yem Julliet, I want to thank you so much for being with us.
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