00:00Well, we're going to turn back now to that story here in France this Wednesday.
00:05Authorities are preparing for mass disruption and protests with blockades on roads across the country.
00:11Some already being set up. We've received pictures from a village in the north of France.
00:16You're seeing them there. Strikes also set to have an impact on schools and other public services.
00:21To get more insight on this day in disruption and indeed about this movement, the Block Everything movement,
00:27we can speak now to Associate Professor of Sociology at the University College London,
00:32author of a recent book called The Rise of the Masses, Spontaneous Mobilization and Conscientious Politics.
00:38Benjamin Abrams, thanks for coming back and trying this again for your time.
00:42Can I ask you, firstly, you know, with your eye on history and looking at the current situation in France,
00:47how big do you think this latest series of unrest may be for France, this latest mass movement?
00:53Well, this could be the start of something quite big indeed.
00:59Part of it, of course, depends on how the new government responds to the actions today.
01:07But what's different about what's happening today is unlike the yellow vests, unlike the pension mart,
01:12the focus here is really on disrupting key elements of national infrastructure
01:17and creating what we sometimes call an exceptional situation, something that draws even more people
01:23than those already politicised into larger and larger protests by disrupting their daily routines and patterns.
01:30Indeed, even the name of this group, Block Everything, it's clearly aimed at disrupting as widely as possible
01:37and even proposing various ways for people to protest, including, you know, just not using your credit card this Wednesday.
01:45You know, what do you think about that and what impact would that have on this movement?
01:51So one of the big upsides of this kind of protest is it can appeal to a wide range of different people
01:56who might have different kinds of affinities for participation.
02:00Some people can't necessarily go down and sit down and block a road,
02:03but they can refrain from using their bank cards or other such things.
02:07The downside of that is that some of these actions are going to be less visible.
02:11And that might mean that we don't necessarily see the full scope of participation
02:15until maybe the days following the protest when we realise the true impact it's had.
02:20Now, France has a bit of a reputation for being quick to strike or being, you know,
02:26numerous to strike and take protest action.
02:29Why do you think that is?
02:32Well, I think there are differences in national culture,
02:35but there are also differences in the constraining factors in society
02:39that allow people to access protest.
02:41And France has been always a society where the patterns of daily life
02:45are very conducive to taking to a political cause.
02:48Some people would say that that's one of the strengths of this democracy,
02:51even though it sometimes causes disruption like this.
02:54How often, though, are mass movements like this successful
02:57in, you know, their demands in getting change?
03:00Well, it's often hard to gauge success.
03:05By some metrics, this movement has already succeeded
03:08in securing the fall of the Bairu government.
03:10The real question is, however, will it secure the fall of the Bairu plan?
03:15And it's really difficult sometimes to ascertain,
03:17even in the days or weeks following a protest,
03:20whether a movement will succeed or fail.
03:22Sometimes we only figure it out by looking at the limited scope of change
03:26implemented by its opponents.
03:29So it may be, for example, that the new Le Corneau government
03:32implements a more modest version of the Bairu plan,
03:36or no plan at all.
03:38That would be counted as some kind of success,
03:39although I get the sense that if these protests really magnify,
03:44they could lead to a toppling of the entire Mecron presidency.
03:51Indeed.
03:52I wonder often, here in France, it seems to be money matters,
03:55you speak there of the budget, that brings people out onto the streets.
03:59But is there, you know, more widely,
04:02what is the spark that ignites such mass movements
04:05that gets people to actually come together in such large numbers?
04:08So my research shows that there are three kinds of conditions
04:13that tend to trigger involvement in mass protests like this.
04:18The first of those kind of exceptional situations that I mentioned,
04:21these disruptions for daily life,
04:22or to the norms that govern daily life.
04:25But there are also moments where people sense the personal opportunity to protest,
04:29when the costs or benefits swing in their favor for a brief period of time.
04:32We saw that during, for example,
04:34the collapse of police repression during the Egyptian revolution,
04:37where suddenly tons of Egyptians poured onto the streets.
04:41And often, if there's a big showdown with the police,
04:43and the police are defeated on the streets,
04:45that can bring many more people into protest.
04:48Finally, there's one other condition.
04:50Oh, sorry.
04:51Sorry, no, but just before...
04:52Finally, there's one other condition.
04:54Sorry, excuse me.
04:55Tell me the final condition before I jump in.
04:58The one other condition is sometimes called a paramount situation.
05:03Those are circumstances in which a big threat to the public,
05:06to democracy, or to a group that people care about,
05:09motivates people to come out and support.
05:12And that's the kind of thing we might see
05:13if there's very harsh police repression of these protests,
05:15that ordinary people will come out and support them,
05:18not because they necessarily believe in the protesters' cause,
05:21but because they believe in their humanity and want to defend them.
05:25Can I just...
05:25Because you are coming to us from the UK,
05:27and we have seen, you know, the police move in,
05:29you know, that terrorism law being passed for people
05:33holding, you know, pieces of cardboard on the streets of the UK.
05:36You know, what do you make of that
05:38and people's reaction in the UK
05:41from what they've seen from the police last weekend?
05:42Well, yes, I think myself and many other observers
05:48have been very surprised by the course of action
05:50that has been taken in relation to the Defend Our Juries movement.
05:54But it's also the case that British law
05:56leaves little room for manoeuvre for the police.
05:58They are compelled to enforce terrorism law.
06:01And my sense is that there is as much confusion
06:04among police officers who seem to be rather reluctant
06:08to enforce these laws as there is among the general public.
06:12Benjamin Abrams, unfortunately, we'll have to leave it there.
06:15But thank you very much again for your time
06:17and joining us here on Friends 24.
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