00:00We talked a little bit yesterday about the financial part of your relationship with Mr. Epstein,
00:07kind of being on payroll, for lack of a better word, for many, many years,
00:11starting around $25,000 and ending up at around $250,000 per year.
00:19There's, as you know from your trial, there's banking information that shows a ton of money
00:25being sent to you from Mr. Epstein over the years in, I think, totaling something like $30 million,
00:35something like this.
00:36What's the, why was that money sent to you?
00:41Like, what was that for?
00:42Well, first of all, I dispute the characterization that the money was sent to me.
00:49Okay, so tell me what, I am stuck with the witnesses at trial
00:54and what was sent at trial on that issue.
00:56So what, what, what, what is the, what do you dispute about that?
01:01Well, I believe, I don't have full recollection.
01:05I'm not even sure I ever saw what they accused me of.
01:07But my belief is that that money also contained money that was for a helicopter, for instance,
01:17that I never owned and I was never mine.
01:22In other words, money was sent to you that you then used to purchase things or?
01:28Well, I'm not even sure that I purchased it.
01:30So the accounts, those accounts would be controlled by his accountants.
01:35Even accounts in your name, you're saying, or one of your entities.
01:38Well, I'm, I'm not even sure I knew of all the entities.
01:43I'm not, I don't, it, maybe I did contemporaneously, but I simply wouldn't know today.
01:48So if there was an entity, let's say, account X, if I really set that up myself or whether
01:55they said we're doing this and the money's coming or whatever, but in no substantive way,
02:03I can't think of the right word.
02:04Did you have control of it?
02:05I had no control is what I'm saying.
02:07So when, when the government, when there was testimony or the government admitted evidence
02:11that showed, for example, $5 million in 2002 coming from Epstein to you, okay, what you're
02:22saying is that, that may or, that that happened, but that the you there wasn't money that, he
02:28wasn't giving you money.
02:29I, I'm not going to say that for everything, because maybe there were accounts that money
02:34was sent to me, but I can say that I've no, like the helicopter, I can definitively say.
02:41I'd have to look at all of them to be, um, accurate for you, but, um, to explain how or
02:50why I could be receiving monies, and I certainly did, so I'm not disputing all of it.
02:55But when you say, let's go back to the helicopter, why would, why did money have to go into your
02:59accounts, or account that was controlled by others, but in your name, to like purchase
03:05a helicopter?
03:06Oh, that's a very good question.
03:07Um, I don't, I'm not sure I know the answer to that.
03:10Um, I don't.
03:14So, let me ask this maybe a different way that gets to the, the issue, right?
03:20So, the accusation by the government, based upon the evidence they collected, is that
03:26Epstein paid you millions and millions of dollars over the years, and the reason why
03:32he paid you that is because you were performing an extraordinary service for him by recruiting
03:37young women, um, many of whom were underage, to, to, um, so that he could sexually abuse
03:45them.
03:45Okay, that's their, that's their allegation.
03:47Okay.
03:52From what you said yesterday, and from what I've reviewed about you and Mr. Epstein, he
03:59paid for a lot in your life.
04:02Absolutely.
04:02Your flights, where you stayed with him, I mean, he didn't expect you to reimburse him
04:07along the way for food, and, you know, so he took care of you for many years.
04:11That is true.
04:12On top of that, he actually paid you a salary, as we talked about, $25,000 to $250,000.
04:18What else did he give you, or what, what purchase, like, was there a time when he gave you a million
04:23dollars, or $500,000 as a bonus, or what, what financial benefit did you receive from
04:28him?
04:30Besides what we've already talked about, we don't have to talk about what, you know, so.
04:32Oh yeah, I got it, I got it.
04:33Okay.
04:34So, my goal always was to become independent, independently, financially secure, and work
04:47for myself.
04:48I've never been one to not work.
04:49And in that regard, over the course of my friendship, and my working relationship with Epstein, I expressed
05:02to him my desire to be independent of him everywhere, just to be freestanding.
05:08And that, in, with that in mind, I wanted to have my own businesses, or my own, um, my own
05:19money coming in, independent and separate from any salary that I received from him.
05:23And I needed that for my self-esteem.
05:28I've never been, um, I mean, I'm, obviously, sorry, and it was a very generous one.
05:32Please, I'm not belittling the sum of money, because it's huge.
05:36But, um, I, I was brought up to work, and I was brought up to be my own, you know, the
05:46first time, so I would either propose businesses to him, or he would actually suggest, why didn't
05:54I do something, and the first deal that we did, or the first, uh, business that we had,
06:01or I had, and that he financed for me, so he gave, he lent me all the money to enable
06:07me to do this, and then I reap the profits, which I, I don't remember now, because we varied
06:14over the deals that we did, that I would give him 50%, or 25%, it was sort of, it was
06:21random, so, and I can tell you what it is, so you can compare it, so it was in, um, Palm
06:25Beach, actually, and it was in real estate, and they sold, um, what was the grounds, origini
06:31of, uh, an estate called the Phipps Estate, and then they, they converted the land that came
06:39with that estate into, uh, houses, and, um, I did, I think two, or maybe three, I can't
06:48remember now, but certainly one, and maybe two, possibly three, I don't think so, I think
06:53two, that then were flipped, and there was a profit, so that would be an example of that,
07:00but I didn't have the money, so he lent me the funds to do that business transaction, and
07:06then I read the profits. And so, but when, when. And that's millions of dollars. When
07:12a, when a financial investigator, like, the FBI looks at accounts, they don't know, kind
07:18of, the conversations you're having, they just see the money. Right. So in those cases, when
07:21that happened, when he would, when he financed that with you, would he send money to you,
07:28so does that explain some of the money? Like, I guess. I believe, I think it does. I think,
07:33for instance, there were two, um, gullwing Mercedes that, that they did with Mercedes and
07:39Aston Martin, you can look up, I think, if I'm right, that had, with the doors that would
07:45come up like this, that were only a very limited number that were made, so I knew that we could
07:51get those and flip them, right within 24 hours, for example. Um, also, um, my, uh, here's
08:02another example of something that you guys wouldn't have known about, is I became a banker.
08:06I got my Series 63, Series 67, uh, banking license, and became a broker for, like, a new
08:14minute, and then, because I was day trading, everything I had, I day traded, was through
08:20an account, and I think I was lucky more than smart, but I made quite a lot of money doing that,
08:28and so, when was that, like, what, uh, that's, again, that's in the 90s again, I don't, oh,
08:34wait, I think, well, you can find it, it'll be my banking license, right, that'll be something
08:39that you can look up, probably, so, what, whatever that is, is this, and I, I just don't remember
08:45when that is, I'm sorry. So, okay, so, and so, so, for example, I was, I was doing really,
08:52really, really well, and so, he was like, how do you do that? Where, how are you, what do you,
08:56why are you investing in, I don't know, Apple, when nobody liked Apple, versus, you know,
09:02before Apple, or Microsoft, I didn't know Bill Gates, so this is not related to him, but,
09:08um, my family, don't charge with Insider, please don't, no, I'm, I'm not trying to suggest
09:14that, oh, goodness, please no, I, I had no, oh, yeah, no, all right, um, but, uh, my, my,
09:26my, going back to my family, I, my dad had given me an account when I was 12, and I had,
09:32had always an interest in business and finance, not, not to be sophisticated, I'm not suggesting
09:39that, um, and so, I like, I like to trade, and so, I, I did, and I did well, and so then
09:46I would tell him what I was doing, now, whether he did or he didn't, he told me he matched me
09:51in some other accounts that he had, because he did a lot of, he, my observation, to go
09:57back to what he did, I observed him personally, and have recollection, personal recollection,
10:02of him trading with, uh, money, a lot, tens of millions, hundreds of millions of dollars.
10:10That was, that he was trading for other people, or that was his own money?
10:14I, I want also to, um, clarify something for you, or clarify or underline.
10:21Wexner was, in my opinion, his closest friend in this time period from when I met him in,
10:29uh, 91, right, all the way until, well, till, I don't know, because I, I wasn't that, um,
10:39friendly with, well, I did travel with Mr. Wexner, but, um, Epstein told me that, uh, Wexner
10:47didn't want to be seen too much with me because of my family problems.
10:54You mean the, the, the problems that your father's company had with embezzlement or
11:00allegations of, yes, yes, that's what I'm talking about.
11:03And now, actually, today, not contemporaneously, but today, I don't believe that that's even true.
11:11I think it was used as a means to not have me travel with him to Ohio or whatever.
11:18It was just a way to park me.
11:21And I believe that now because within the discovery, there was a lot of, well, not a lot,
11:26but there were some indications that he would actively tell other people to lie to me or conceal things from me
11:33and that he never loved me and I wasn't his type.
11:37That's in the discovery somewhere.
11:39So, okay.
11:41So, the government had evidence that even as late as 2007, he paid you a lot of money, um.
11:53What was that?
11:55What was the money?
11:56Like several, millions and millions of dollars in 2007.
11:59Um, 7.4 million dollars, I think.
12:02What was that for?
12:02Was it, was that the helicopter?
12:03That was, that's my question.
12:04Oh, sorry.
12:05I don't, I don't know.
12:06So, so in 2007, in 2007.
12:09I think that was, that's probably the helicopter.
12:10That could have been.
12:11That was what?
12:11That could have been the helicopter, the Sikorsky.
12:13Those big chunks like that, I don't, I don't, I don't personally have any memory of receiving a check from him for 7 million dollars.
12:23I just, I just don't.
12:24But, I, I would have to, I know, I'm, so the answer to your question to be precise.
12:31Well, you would remember if it went into your pocket.
12:33I would remember if it went, I would, he never paid me to, for services that you just described, 7 million dollars to, for any nefarious reason.
12:43I think I understand what you've said about being on the payroll and, and him helping you with businesses and giving you a lot of life things along the way.
12:56You travel with him, you eat with him, you know.
12:57Now, but, but there is the, this, these massive amounts of money, one-time payments that I.
13:04So, I don't, you'd have to trace that, right?
13:06So, I, I don't believe that came into my account or I had any control.
13:10I have no memory of that.
13:11I have no, no.
13:12So, well, but if there's records that show up coming into your account, it sounds like what you're saying is that, not, putting aside your, you have no memory of that money being yours.
13:22Like, you didn't, that money is not similar.
13:24No, I wouldn't be like, oh, yippee, let me go, I got 7 million dollars, I'm going to go buy myself a yacht, no.
13:28Or, I don't know, something else, or move it to some other, no.
13:34I don't think, I don't think, if you look, you, you'll have to check.
13:38Well, obviously you will.
13:39But, I don't think you'll find that money moving in any, to any account other of mine, or, it shouldn't show, I don't believe anyway, as far as I recall, it wouldn't show me spending it.
13:51Right.
13:51Does that make sense?
13:52Okay.
13:52Yeah, that makes sense.
13:54I mean, I think, if, I don't think there's any dispute by anybody, even your lawyers at trial, that, that money went in.
14:03Oh, 7 million dollars in when, what year?
14:05Well, there's several years, in 2007.
14:07And?
14:08It's, in 2002, there was 5 million dollars that you were paid in 2002.
14:13Oh, well, I'd have to, I don't, I don't remember.
14:18But, okay, so there's, there would be another large sum, but it wouldn't have come from him later.
14:21The biggest one was in 1999, there's over 18 million, 18.3 million.
14:28I don't know what that is.
14:33So, but you, but what you're saying, it sounds like, and then, if you don't know, we're gonna, we can move on, but when we're talking about 18.3 million in 99, 5 million and three years later in 2002, 7.4 million in 2007, that, those, that money adds up to around 30 million dollars.
14:53You were not paid that by Mr. Epstein, meaning that's not money you received for your benefit, even if it was put into your accounts.
15:02I don't, I don't believe any of that was my money.
15:03Now, I do, I just, like I said, we did do these things with the cars.
15:08Yes, I understand that, I understand that.
15:10And as, as, as, you know, I don't, I don't, I don't know if any of that money, some of it, if it moves, some of that may have come from the car or a house that was sold that I had an interest in with him.
15:19That's possible.
15:20But, but I don't think this money is mine.
15:22But also, the record should reflect, too, that there were times Ghislaine's name was used, for example, Air Ghislaine.
15:29Her name was in the name of the entity, it had nothing to do with her, and if you pulled signatures, there's no...
15:37You know, my, what I'm trying to just make sure I, that I understand, is that the idea that you were paid 30 million dollars between 99 and 2007,
15:49in order to, by mistrusting, to reward you for recruiting young women, that is, in your, you're saying that is categorically completely false.
16:00That is, that is categorically false, correct.
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