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00:00Greg Bedard yesterday discussing something that we talked about briefly during the show on yesterday's program that Kyle Duggar, other veterans from Andre Stevenson, may not be secure on this roster.
00:14It's something Tommy Curran told afternoons a few weeks back. Surprise cuts, surprise cut candidates, trade candidates.
00:22Duggar and Stevenson, chief among them. So more of that yesterday from Greg Bedard, the eraser.
00:27Craig Woodson getting more first team reps over Kyle Duggar, who has been just horrendous against the past four years.
00:33I've been talking about that for a long time. So we'll get to some thoughts on that coming up in just a moment.
00:38However, speaking of observations. Yeah, I'm up here in the crow's nest.
00:43Keith was locked in on Will Campbell and the offensive line with the binocs here.
00:49It's a walkthrough. There's nothing competitive going on. What did you say to me as an aside, Keith?
00:53Well, I'm not trying to take a cheap shot. I'm just telling you what I'm observing.
00:59You kind of can tell that Will Campbell's arms are short.
01:01Oh, no. You kind of can.
01:02Like, they're all just... Oh, no.
01:04So you're just standing in the huddle.
01:06Is it because there's no shoulder pads? Is that why it's jumping out to you today?
01:09I don't know. I don't know.
01:09Why are you noticing it on day 11?
01:11Well, I'm specifically looking for it also as he's just...
01:13They're all just kind of standing around, like, going through, like, half speed.
01:16So he's standing next to a bunch of other linemen, obviously.
01:19And you just sort of see, like, where their arms kind of come down, right?
01:23Like, I don't think Will Campbell could put his hands in his pocket.
01:27You were watching this earlier, right?
01:31I was asking if he was reaching his toes when he was stretching.
01:34I'm like, maybe it's possible Morgan Moses just has the longest wingspan of all time.
01:38Maybe that's possible.
01:40Or Jared Wilson. I don't know.
01:43But, no, it is...
01:44All right, so these are things you're noticing.
01:46I'm noticing these now, yes.
01:47That the arm length is quite...
01:50Like, for real.
01:50Like, I'm not trying to be a silly goose about it.
01:52Like, there are...
01:53No, it looks short.
01:54Look, I think it's a good observation.
01:57Is he the guy out there?
01:59Yeah, okay.
02:00Oh, nice.
02:00Wow.
02:01Oh, wow.
02:02These are...
02:03Aren't those good?
02:03What are these, prescription?
02:05I hope so.
02:07Oh, yeah.
02:07Take a look over.
02:07See him breaking the huddle there?
02:09Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:10So they're just all standing straight up, and their arms are, like, down by their side.
02:13Oh, yeah.
02:14Boy, you've got to deal with this fence a little bit more than I realized.
02:16The fence is tricky, yeah.
02:17Yeah, yeah, yeah.
02:18We have a lot of obstacles here, but...
02:20Who's he working against?
02:21You've got to overcome that.
02:22That's Swinson?
02:22You have the Binocs.
02:23He's working on Swinson, 43.
02:24Yeah, okay.
02:25No, I was wondering who 43 was.
02:26I'm pretty sure that's who that is.
02:27Yeah, so...
02:27But am I crazy to see that...
02:28That's a college teammate.
02:29His arms are kind of noticeably smaller.
02:33You know, that's my first foray into the Binocs.
02:35I might need more of that.
02:36But, yeah, look, I trust you on this.
02:38I trust...
02:38They measured him at the combine, for God's sakes.
02:40They are...
02:43Certain other...
02:45Like, they measure everything.
02:45Like, everything.
02:46They measure everything.
02:47And some of it stands out, some of it doesn't.
02:49Uh-huh.
02:50You know, like, if somebody told you Tyquan Thornton had the smallest wrist in NFL history,
02:53it's not something that you're really, like, looking for.
02:55Nope, that's true.
02:57But, yeah, I guess this is a little bit of a different story.
02:59Is he the guy you want to see the most tomorrow at joint practices?
03:02Like, just see how he holds up?
03:04He's high on my list.
03:05I don't know if he's number one.
03:06Honestly, after yesterday, Travion Henderson might be one.
03:08That might be the guy I want.
03:09I might want to see him more than anything.
03:12I mean, Drake May is always going to be at the top of every list.
03:14I think Campbell's a good one, though.
03:15I think Campbell and Wilson, honestly.
03:17I mean, you might have two rookies starting on the left side of your line.
03:21And we still think, as a consensus, it's their worst position group.
03:25So, what do they look like against other guys?
03:27Because right now, we've seen there's been days where Kay LeVon, Chasen, and Keon White
03:31have gotten the better of them.
03:34Like, so what does it look like when you bring in another team?
03:36And a team that was just in the NFC title game a year ago, too.
03:39So, how do those guys hold up?
03:41Because my questions on Steph Diggs have pretty much been answered.
03:43Going into camp, he was number one.
03:45Yeah, me too.
03:45I mean, I wouldn't expect to see him in the game.
03:48I guess joint practices, and look, if he plays, great.
03:51I don't need to see him in a preseason game, necessarily.
03:53I don't know if those are reps I necessarily want him getting.
03:56I want him on the same page with Drake May.
03:58But that might be one where even I draw the line.
04:00And I'm usually pretty aggressive with that.
04:02He'll be out there at joint practices.
04:03If he's making plays at joint practices, that's probably enough.
04:05I kind of like all the rookies, to be honest.
04:07Just, like, I'm with you on Henderson.
04:09Kyle Williams, can he flash against another team?
04:12Woodson, as we're talking about maybe the safety depth chart, and then the two offensive linemen.
04:16Like, I think all those guys, just to see what they look like against another team.
04:19Like, they've been thrown into a couple of weeks of practice, but you're just facing the same guys over and over and over again.
04:24So, what does it look like tomorrow?
04:25I think all those guys will be good.
04:27So, who's number one on that list at joint practices?
04:29Campbell should be high up there.
04:30I'd have Travion Henderson high up there.
04:32As I said, I think Drake May would be high on everybody's list, given how the last couple of practices have gone.
04:37We talked about that a little bit earlier this hour.
04:39You can climb aboard.
04:40617-779-7937.
04:43Jones and Keith live at Patriots training camp.
04:45Day 11.
04:45Light practice today.
04:46It's a walkthrough.
04:47We're brought to you by McFarlane Energy.
04:50Circling back to what Bedard had to say there, Keith.
04:53He thinks Duggar might be in jeopardy on the roster.
04:55Yeah, so, like, you and I kind of agree on Duggar.
04:58Not really the biggest fan, even going back to when he got drafted.
05:01He is a physical safety, but with so many teams thrown at tight ends and things like that, he can be a liability at times.
05:08However, why are you cutting him?
05:10He's trying to save money?
05:12Like, you have all the money.
05:13You have all the money in the world to spend, so I don't really know what the point would be.
05:16If he's going to be a depth player, is he going to be happy with that?
05:19You know, I'm not saying he's Rafi Devers, but, like, if he's going to be a depth player and Woodson's outplaying it.
05:25Like, who do you like better?
05:26Let's rewind for a second.
05:26Who do you like better as a player?
05:28Peppers or Duggar?
05:29Peppers.
05:30Okay.
05:31But right now I like Duggar more than Woodson.
05:33Well, but it depends on how you want to play defense, right?
05:37I mean, are Duggar and Peppers, is that a good safety combination?
05:40That feels like two guys who are very similar.
05:42Yeah.
05:42Two guys who are better coming forward than going back.
05:45Woodson's supposed to be more of a free safety, McCourty type, if you will, high-end comp.
05:49But he's supposed to be more of that.
05:51So the fit defensively might be better with Woodson and Peppers or Woodson and Duggar because Peppers and Duggar play a similar game.
05:59So if Duggar is going to be phased out to a degree, is he the kind of guy who's going to buy in?
06:04Is he going to be happy with that?
06:05What can you get for him via trade?
06:07I wouldn't want to necessarily outright cut him.
06:09That's what I'm saying.
06:10Or Malloy style.
06:11Right, right.
06:11But if you can get something for him via trade, yeah, I understand that.
06:16And if you're playing Woodson and Peppers more and that's your safety combo going forward and there isn't a spot for Duggar, I don't mind trading him.
06:22I would feel worse about outright cutting him.
06:24I'm not even a big fan of his game.
06:26Yeah, no, and neither am I.
06:27So it's weird for me to defend him.
06:29But it's also like this team doesn't have a lot of talent.
06:31We just went through all the exercises before about top 10 in each position, also receiving votes, all that stuff.
06:37They're not super talented.
06:38He might be one of their 10 or 12 best players if you're just going through in a vacuum each position.
06:44Where are they grade?
06:45Well, again, he was one of the guys getting votes at the safety position, which Peppers did not.
06:50You're not cutting Lawyer Malloy, but here comes Rodney Harrison.
06:54You're cutting Kyle Duggar or trading Kyle Duggar even.
06:57You're waiting on that draft pick.
06:58You're hoping that Woodson steps up.
07:00But look, I think that's a similar situation.
07:03I mean, those guys are way more high end, but there was redundancy with Malloy and Harrison.
07:09And they brought in a rookie in Eugene Wilson.
07:11And maybe there are some parallels there where, you know, Vrabel lived through that.
07:15Maybe there are some parallels there for that.
07:17And I don't think cutting Duggar would, you know, have the team ready to revolt like they did then.
07:21These guys aren't that good.
07:22But understand the analogy.
07:23Like that, you had two similar safeties.
07:26There wasn't room necessarily for both of them.
07:28You had an ascending rookie who could play more of a free safety, deep third of the field style.
07:34And so they decided to move on.
07:36Yeah.
07:36I mean, but you can also play three safeties.
07:39Like if Woodson's so great, you can put three safeties on the field at once.
07:42Also, there's got to be something about having a little bit of depth.
07:46Correct me if I'm wrong.
07:47Peppers didn't play 17 games last year, did he?
07:49No, he did not.
07:50All right.
07:50So I don't know.
07:51Like, I just wonder if you're right.
07:52I mean, maybe you get into like, if you truly think he isn't one of your two best safeties
07:57and then he throws a real fit about it, that's sort of different.
08:00But if there's still ways to use them.
08:02I also just think they're okay with moving on from leadership from the past.
08:07Oh, they got rid of almost all the guys.
08:08So right.
08:09In fact, Peppers was the captain last year.
08:11Well, Duggar.
08:12Good point.
08:12Good point.
08:13And maybe Peppers would be the guy to go.
08:15I mean, yesterday, the guy losing reps was Duggar, but maybe Peppers is in a similar spot.
08:18Also, it is practice.
08:20So you wonder if they're just, they know what they have in Duggar, right?
08:22And it's one of like, we know what we got.
08:24Just like sort of like Diggs.
08:25I feel like they've kind of faced him back a little bit.
08:26And they're like, all right, let's give Woodson a chance with the other first.
08:28I would agree with that if it was just a reduction in snaps.
08:32Curran said it a couple of weeks ago.
08:33Bedard said it yesterday.
08:35This guy might be in trouble with his roster spot.
08:37And so look, if it was purely financial, Keith, I would hate it.
08:40Yeah, that makes no sense.
08:41They have the most cap space in the league.
08:43Now, if you think, if you think he's going to get scaled back,
08:47he's not going to be a full-time player for you,
08:49and you think you can get something worthwhile for him,
08:51well, then I understand that transaction.
08:52You get a day three pick that maybe you can use at the trade deadline,
08:56or maybe you can use to get something in the offseason that it's valuable,
08:59not later to stand there and pick in the fifth round,
09:01but you pull a fifth rounder with a second rounder as a sweetener
09:03to get a player you want in the offseason.
09:05I think there's value in that for a guy that you see losing snap share this year.
09:11But, yeah, that's being real bullish on the eraser there in round four.
09:15Right, yeah, and so I don't know where our –
09:17Eugene Wilson was like the 36th pick.
09:19Yeah.
09:20You know, like this guy's a fourth-round day three pick.
09:22Yeah, that's why you almost wonder, even if you like him,
09:24do you sort of like don't put all that pressure on him right away,
09:28and you sort of ease him in.
09:28You're like, he gets some snaps,
09:29but you still have the two starting safeties in front of him.
09:31And then by year two for Woodson, you can get rid of either one of those guys
09:34because you're like, all right, he's now replacing them,
09:36but you might not want to put it all on his plate in year one.
09:39Who do you think's in more jeopardy?
09:40And I guess based on Bedard's answer, probably Duggar,
09:44but Curran lumped these two together before,
09:46and we can ask him about it when he joins us at 1 o'clock.
09:48Who do you think's in more jeopardy, Stevenson or Duggar?
09:51I think it's from Andre.
09:52I think – and also if you look at it,
09:53they drafted a running back in the second round.
09:55They drafted a safety in the fourth round.
09:57So that tells me that they maybe prioritized a running back a little bit more,
10:03or they at least think Henderson's a better pro prospect than Woodson is,
10:06just strictly based on how the draft went.
10:09And also Henderson's flashing a little bit.
10:11And you have Gibson, who probably outplayed Stevenson a year ago.
10:15I know that's one of the things Curran brings up a lot with us,
10:17is that even two years ago, Ezekiel Elliott, believe it or not,
10:20probably had the better season than Ramondre did.
10:23Ramondre's really kind of living off of, what, three years ago?
10:26I agree with that, by the way.
10:27Curran said that a lot.
10:28I'm not sure I agree with it, but it was close.
10:29It was close.
10:30I agree.
10:30I think Elliott was really good in the pass game that year,
10:33which is not something he did a ton in Dallas,
10:35but he caught a lot of passes that year.
10:37And so that might have been more just a way – it was probably close,
10:40and then he just broke the tie, and it kind of fits the story or whatever.
10:42That's fine.
10:44But he was very, very underwhelming last year and all the fumbles,
10:47and then he fumbles the ball again during their scrimmage on Friday.
10:50So depending on how much work he gets between tomorrow, Friday,
10:55and the preseason games,
10:56and if they feel like they could put more on Henderson and Gibson.
11:01And I'm not worried about the cap, obviously, and neither are you,
11:04but there is something about getting your bang for your buck.
11:06And Ramondre Stevenson is one of the higher-paid running backs in the league.
11:09And if he's not even going to be your lead back,
11:11then he might not be on the team.
11:12If Travion Henderson looks like he looked yesterday,
11:14that's the first day he flashed for us.
11:16I saw Callahan tweet out he's arguably been their best offensive player in camp.
11:22I would disagree with that.
11:23That's his view on it.
11:24Who do you think has been the best offensive player, then?
11:26That's a good question.
11:27I know.
11:28So at first I was like, ah, it's not Henderson,
11:29but then I was trying to think of who else it would be.
11:31But I wouldn't have felt strong before the second half of yesterday's practice.
11:34I never would have said it.
11:35He wouldn't have even been one of the first couple of names that came to my mind.
11:38Yeah, but maybe it speaks to how the offense hasn't been great.
11:40Fair.
11:40I mean, I don't know if my answer would be – I might have even said –
11:43Moody?
11:43Moody?
11:43Yes.
11:44Moody is inconsistent.
11:45That's awful.
11:46That's what might be Henderson.
11:47But that might have been my answer.
11:48Yeah, yeah, yeah.
11:49Is he's kind of the guy who's flashed every day, and that's an awful answer.
11:52Yeah.
11:52But that's probably an honest answer.
11:55No, I just – if Henderson is going to be your explosive back,
11:58and you know Gibson's reliable, and Stevenson, again,
12:01is not going to be happy getting scaled back,
12:02and he's part of the leadership from a year ago,
12:05and a guy who got fat and happy when he got his contract
12:07and checked out on the year and fumbled a million times,
12:09hasn't seemed to learn anything from it.
12:11I don't mind moving on from those guys via trade.
12:14Even if it's a day three pick, I don't mind.
12:16I'm not cutting them outright just to save Robert a few bucks
12:19to put into his helicopter or whatever.
12:21Well, I just wonder because football trades are almost ever player for player, right?
12:24It's always – there's either surprise cuts
12:27or they get traded for like a late-round pick the following year.
12:30So I'm not high on either one of these guys,
12:33but at the same time, you have a roster that might be the 25th most talented.
12:38I don't know how you improve by just like getting rid of those guys.
12:41It's almost like keep them on the team.
12:43Even if you reduce their role,
12:44you hope they're not too much of a pain in the ass.
12:46If they are, you've got to cross that bridge.
12:48But having Ramondre is not bad because just the way football is,
12:51Gibson or Henderson gets hurt week one.
12:53You already traded Stevenson, and now you're like,
12:55where's Land Landon?
12:56It's true.
12:57Land Larrison?
12:57Land Larrison.
12:59That's the guy we need.
13:01The land shark.
13:02There's got to be something about also having depth
13:04on a team that already isn't super talented.
13:06No, I think that's fair.
13:07I also just think it would say a lot about how they feel about their rookie class.
13:11Now, whether they're right or wrong,
13:12we'll ultimately find out.
13:14But it would say a lot about how they feel about rookies like Henderson and Woodson.
13:18617-779-7937.
13:21You can jump in on Jones and Keefe.
13:23That's your phone number to do so.
13:24We will talk to Tommy Curran in the 1 o'clock hour.
13:27Kiefer Madness for you at 1245.
13:29We'll be tearing off ice cream flavors at 1130.
13:31You're not going to want to miss that on a tier Tuesday here on Jones and Keefe.
13:35Live at Patriots training camp, day 11.
13:37For a walkthrough today, Red Sox win again last night.
13:40They're never going to lose again, this team.
13:42The offense feels unstoppable outside of some injuries.
13:46We'll get to that with your phone calls next.
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