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Malaysia’s brain drain why do our best minds leave, and what happens when they return? Join us as we speak to Dr. Rais Hussin, President & CEO of EMIR Research, on how returning Malaysians can raise the bar, not just fit in.
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00:00Good morning, you're watching Pantal Belanjawan with me Nina Rosman and for today's topic we're going to focus on Malaysia's brain drain has been a persistent challenge for decades with thousands of our brightest minds seeking opportunities abroad while many live for better prospect the bigger question is what happens when they return do they simply reintegrate or do they come back to raise the bar and transform the system
00:29today we explore this critical issue with Dr. Raiz Fusin, President and CEO of MA Research Dr. Raiz, thank you for joining us firstly we're going to take a look at reality check are we seeing real brain circulation or just isolated success stories and what single best indicators should we watch to confirm it's a genuine trend
00:49thank you for having me and obviously I'll be extremely careful with the phrase brain circulation because it's often used to launder hard truth circulation implies a two-way self-sustaining exchange what we have based on global indicators and long-run trend reconstructions looks closer to net human flight with occasional headline returns
01:18which are real but not yet system changing it is not systemic if we want to verify whether or genuine reversal is happening we need a small dashboard that distinguishes stories from flows essentially you've captured the three of those first being the net talent flows high skill departures minus high skill arrivals
01:48all success and the main value and the final value which can be a bit of this question in the bottom of this question the second return return intern
01:53internal surveys are extremely useful by the metric that matters is verified relocation for instance tax residency EPF slash soft store activation professional registration employment start date and so on
02:06professional registration, employment start date, and so on.
02:10Third, retention over time.
02:1212 months, 36 months, or 60 months retention for retinies
02:17because a return that reverses after 18 months
02:20is still a form of circulation outwards instead of itwards.
02:26Brain-grain capacity.
02:28Whether Malaysia is in a quadrant where it loses talent
02:32and fails to attract foreign talent,
02:35global indices have warned Malaysia is drifting into that danger zone
02:40which is precisely why talk of normal circulation is increasingly untenable.
02:47If we can't show net inflows of high-skilled talent and multi-year retention,
02:53then we are not seeing circulation, we are seeing exceptions to the norm.
02:59All right, this is some of, not single, but multiple indicators that we can use to measure.
03:06But when retinies come back, how do we know they're raising standards
03:10rather than just filing vacancies?
03:12What's the clearest marker you look for inside organization especially?
03:16You seem to have the right question all the time
03:21because numbers can be gamed.
03:25You know, there's a book called How to Lie with Statistics by Darren Hall.
03:29It was published some time ago.
03:31A credible program has to show that retinies are not merely plugging gaps
03:37but upgrading organizational capability.
03:40I think this is very, very important.
03:43There are many reasons why people return to Malaysia.
03:48And we know what is happening globally, geopolitically, geoeconomically,
03:53a lot of uncertainties, a lot of right-wing concentration of things that are happening worldwide.
04:00So we need to understand the whole issue in a very holistic manner.
04:06To me, the best markers are not how many hires, but what changed after they arrived.
04:12So we have about five items here.
04:16Firstly, productivity and output per head in the teams that lead or redesign.
04:22Measured through revenues per employees, value added per worker,
04:26or project throughput depending on sector.
04:28Next is execution speed.
04:31Cycle time from decision to delivery, procurement lead times,
04:35product release cadence, time to license, or time to market.
04:41Next, decision quality.
04:43Fewer reversals, fewer policy utans inside organization,
04:48higher hit rate on strategic projects, lower project failure rates.
04:53Next, operating practices.
04:55Adoption of globally standard practices in governance, risk, compliance, R&D management,
05:03data systems, and performance management.
05:06Spill over whether local team develop new competencies rather than becoming dependent on the important brain.
05:13I think that is also very critical.
05:16And one uncomfortable but important point from the evidence base,
05:20if corruption and institutional weakness remain,
05:24even top-tier retainers become a short-lived cosmetic layer.
05:28They cannot raise the bar in system that punish merit and reward proximity.
05:34These are all the aspects that we should be focusing on productivity, value added,
05:39and not only the execution part, but also the failure of low-rate projects,
05:44failure, risk-compliant, and also the research R&D management.
05:48But when they come back, especially they have high expectation,
05:51but for us to grow, we need to be in the right environment.
05:54For the Malaysian market, is Malaysia actually creating enough high-quality rules for returners,
05:58or are we only attractive to a narrow segment right now?
06:03If Malaysia is only attracting a narrow segment,
06:06you will see returners clustering in a few safe lanes.
06:10Corporate HQ functions, government-linked ecosystem,
06:13and senior advisory role with ambiguous decision rights.
06:17That is not structural repair at all.
06:20Signals that the economy is creating high-quality jobs include
06:23a clear career pathway in knowledge-intensive sectors,
06:28defined ladders, specialist tracks, and leadership tracks.
06:33Second, real decision rights.
06:36Rules with budget authority, hiring authority, and technical autonomy,
06:41not just titles.
06:43Third, skills-based pay and progression.
06:46Wage growth linked to capability and outcome
06:49rather than tenure and internal politics.
06:53Fourth, mobility across sectors.
06:56Returnees moving between academia, industry, startups, and public sector
07:00without bureaucratic dead ends.
07:03This is important.
07:05R&D absorption.
07:06Growth in roles using advanced skills,
07:09particularly in R&D engineering, data, and deep tech,
07:13because the research in Malaysian context over decades
07:16repeatedly flags scarcity here as a core push factor.
07:21Talent doesn't return to a job.
07:24It returns to a trajectory that moves in a certain direction
07:29that takes care of all those five components that I have just explained.
07:35As you mentioned, they don't just come back for the jobs,
07:39but they came for the clear path of their future.
07:42And let's stick the stickiness test.
07:45What is the number one factor that makes returnee stay long-term in Malaysia,
07:49other than you mentioned earlier from geopolitic uncertainty
07:52with whatever is happening around the world?
07:54Your thoughts on this?
07:57Retention is where countries either mature or embarrass themselves.
08:03The predictors are a blend of economic logic and lived reality,
08:08and the evidence base is very consistent on that.
08:11The most predictive indicators to track are as followings.
08:16Number one, wage progression.
08:19It is not just the starting salary that becomes an important factor
08:23because technician is a major push factor.
08:26We know that salarious technician is a big problem in Malaysia.
08:31Workplace culture and autonomy.
08:33Ability to innovate, participate in decisions,
08:36and work in a high-trust environment.
08:39This is very critical.
08:41Meritocracy signals.
08:43Promotion, recognition, and performance management
08:46that feel fair and legible.
08:49Family infrastructure.
08:51School access and quality.
08:52Housing affordability relative to wages.
08:56And healthcare continuity.
08:58Spouse pathway.
08:59Sometimes the retainers actually married someone from that country
09:06that he or she has been working.
09:09So are we according work rights, job matching support,
09:12and professional integration for partners?
09:15Professional licensing clarity.
09:17Time to recognition for credential, predictable pathways,
09:21transparent requirements.
09:24And quality life confidence.
09:26Not just safety rankings, but social cohesion,
09:30everyday fairness, and the sense that institutions does work.
09:35If I had to compress it into one thought,
09:39return is stay when the systems stop feeling arbitrary.
09:44So there should not be any arbitrary in that system.
09:47It should be quite clear, well-defined,
09:50and that the trust has been built sufficiently
09:53to ensure the trajectory continues.
09:57We're talking to more of a flexible system,
09:59as you mentioned, that way we cater for all of these returnees
10:03and Malaysian Thailand to innovate,
10:06and making space and increase the productivity
10:08of these organizations.
10:10But we want to understand also on the friction audit.
10:14Definitely from the friction audit,
10:15is the return journey truly becoming low friction?
10:18And what's the best way to measure
10:20whether bureaucracy is really decreasing?
10:22Well, this needs to be measured like a user journey,
10:27not like a press release or a press conference.
10:31The state should be able to tell you,
10:34with numbers, how many steps it takes
10:37and how long each step is taken
10:40and whether outcomes are consistent.
10:43I think this is very, very critical
10:45to ensure that frictions are moderated.
10:48The metrics that work, that must be incorporated.
10:53Firstly, median and variance of processing time.
10:56Median alone is not enough.
10:58Inconsistency is what breeds distrust.
11:02Number of steps and agencies touched per application
11:05and how many requires in-person visits.
11:09Sometimes it's a merry-go-round
11:11in trying to get some applications done.
11:15I think many countries have improved that.
11:17A country down south have actually put everything online.
11:21So are we there?
11:23First time, right rate.
11:25Proportion of application that proceeds
11:27without re-submission.
11:30So to do that,
11:31the application process itself has to be fail-proof.
11:35So have we do that?
11:37Have we done that?
11:38Status transparency.
11:40Frequency and accuracy of updates
11:42and whether applicants can see
11:44which agency currently holds the file.
11:46Now, this is also critical.
11:49They do not want to be given a merry-go-round again
11:51with 10, 15 different phone calls
11:54just to know where the file is.
11:56Cross-agency coordination.
11:58I think there should be a measure
12:00through hand-off time between agencies
12:02and the number of cases stuck in inter-agency limbo.
12:07Sometimes when that thing happens,
12:10people get frustrated
12:11and this also will create that friction
12:14that we do not want.
12:16User satisfaction at each stage,
12:18not as a generic rating,
12:19but tied at specific stages.
12:22Document verification,
12:24visas, tax, licensing,
12:27schooling, spouse employment.
12:29A blunt way to say it is,
12:31if the process is easy,
12:34only for the well-connected,
12:36it is not low friction.
12:38It is selectively lubricated.
12:41All right.
12:43Definitely, this is very important for us to see
12:45and you've also,
12:47from the earlier of our discussion,
12:48you have shared
12:49how can we ensure all the returnees,
12:50the Malaysian talent
12:51that come back can stay for the long term
12:54with the right system,
12:57with the right policy
12:58and definitely,
12:59we just don't want to make them
13:00as the aesthetic layer.
13:02Again, Doctor,
13:03actually, I want to discuss also
13:05how can we make sure this impact
13:07also not only bring to the elite
13:08because we insert when we say
13:09that Malaysians are returning,
13:11probably they go for high-level industries.
13:15But, Doctor, please stay with us
13:17as we will take a short break
13:18and we'll be right back.
13:34All right.
13:35Welcome back to Pantam Lanjawan
13:36and we're still discussing
13:37on our topic
13:38and Malaysians returning talent
13:40where they are coming back
13:42to raise the boy
13:43and not just to blend in
13:44and definitely,
13:45we are still with our guests,
13:46Dr. Rais Hussin,
13:48President and CEO of ABR Research.
13:51Doctor, thank you for staying with us.
13:53As you shared with us
13:54on the first segment,
13:55one of the highlights
13:56that you mentioned is very clear
13:58that how can we not only measure
14:01how many returnees
14:02of Malaysian talent are coming back
14:04but how many are making the changes
14:05and you share a lot of dimensions
14:07that we need to take a look at
14:08from productivity, value,
14:11growth project, management,
14:13including all the systems
14:14and also how can we make sure
14:17we can create a very long-term
14:20and high value environment
14:22for all of these returnees.
14:23Okay, I want to take a look
14:24on the impact.
14:25So, talking about all of this initiative,
14:28we want to take a look
14:28impact beyond the elites.
14:29How do we make sure
14:30this isn't only a C-suite story?
14:33What's one sign that the impact
14:34is reaching mid-career
14:36and technical talent too?
14:37Share us in your POV, Doctor.
14:39I think we need to be mindful
14:42that we do not only celebrate
14:44C-suite returns.
14:46We get a glossy narrative
14:47and a hollow middle.
14:50Real recovery requires mid-career
14:52and technical talent,
14:54the people who actually run systems,
14:56build products
14:57and teach the next cohort.
15:01If you look at the inclusive metrics
15:03that to be included in this area,
15:06my belief is it should include
15:08return rates by seniority band,
15:11technical specialists,
15:13mid-career managers,
15:15early career high performers,
15:17not only executives.
15:19Next, occupation mix,
15:22engineers, researchers,
15:23clinician, data professional,
15:26advanced manufacturing specialists,
15:29regional distribution,
15:30not only KL Selangor,
15:31but whether returnees are being absorbed
15:34into Penang, Johor, Sabah, Sarawak
15:38and secondary cities,
15:40SME absorption,
15:41number of returnees in SMEs
15:43and scale-ups plus survival
15:46and growth rate of those firms.
15:48Wage and career outcomes
15:50for locals in the same teams.
15:52If return programs crowd out locals,
15:54they will fail politically and socially.
15:58This also links to the larger point.
16:01Without credible institutional reform,
16:04brain drain remains a treadmill
16:05and the country ends up paying repeatedly
16:08for the same talent it cannot hold.
16:12I remember there was a huge talent
16:14came back to Malaysia from Singapore
16:17to helm a huge sovereign wealth fund
16:20and then he went through a lot of challenges
16:24that we were discussing a little earlier
16:28on whether meritocracy
16:30or whether decision can be made
16:32or whether he can make the changes
16:35that is necessary for him to make
16:38to ensure that the sovereign wealth fund
16:41will be in the right trajectory.
16:44Unfortunately, it didn't last
16:47and he left.
16:48So, that's the things
16:50that we need to be very mindful.
16:52Over-celebrating C-suite only
16:55is not going to solve the issues.
17:00And how can we evaluate remote contributions
17:02like mentors, mentorship networks,
17:05projects and even collaborations
17:07or any investment linkage,
17:10knowledge transfer
17:11or even the market access
17:12and what some of the measurable accounts
17:14for local teams and firms especially?
17:18It is important that contribution
17:21from afar works best
17:23and at scale.
17:24In economics,
17:25that are already institutionally mature
17:28and digitally advanced.
17:31Remote contribution is not
17:32a substitute for weak system.
17:35It is an amplifier of strong ones.
17:38Then continue with the outcomes
17:39but reframe slightly.
17:41In practice,
17:42remote diaspora contribution
17:44delivers real value
17:46when three conditions are in place.
17:49What are those?
17:50First, digital readiness.
17:52Advanced digital infrastructure,
17:55interoperable platforms,
17:57clear data governance
17:58and widespread digital adoption
18:01allow collaboration,
18:03mentoring, project delivery
18:05and even investment decision
18:07to happen efficiently
18:08across borders.
18:10Without this,
18:12remote contribution
18:13remain fragmented
18:14and personality driven
18:16rather than systemic.
18:18This is something
18:19very, very critical
18:20that we must remember.
18:22Second,
18:23institutional absorption capacity.
18:25Local organizations
18:26must be able to translate
18:28external expertise into action.
18:31That requires clear mandates,
18:34decision rights,
18:35competent middle management
18:37and procurement
18:38and contracting systems
18:39that can move
18:41at speed.
18:43In weak institutional environment,
18:45diaspora inputs
18:47often stalls
18:48at the level of advice.
18:50Unfortunately.
18:52Third,
18:53outcome-based engagement model.
18:55Economists that succeed
18:57do not treat
18:58diaspora engagement
18:59as symbolic.
19:01They track concrete outputs,
19:03project completion,
19:04capability transfer
19:06to local teams,
19:08productivity improvements,
19:10new market access
19:11and sustained partnership.
19:15Where this matrix
19:16are absent,
19:17contribution from afar
19:19becomes performative only.
19:22So when we talk
19:22about diaspora engagement,
19:24the real question
19:25is not whether
19:26Malaysians abroad
19:27are willing to contribute.
19:29I'm sure
19:30that many are.
19:32The question is
19:33whether the domestic system
19:35is digitally
19:36and institutionally ready,
19:39specifically
19:40institutionally ready
19:41to receive
19:42and deploy
19:43that contribution
19:43effectively.
19:45Remote contribution
19:46thrives
19:47in advanced
19:48digital economies
19:49because systems,
19:52not personalities,
19:53do the heavy lifting.
19:55Without that foundation,
19:58it remains very marginal,
19:59no matter how talented
20:01the diaspora is.
20:02Remember,
20:03the return is so far,
20:05if you look at the statistics,
20:07we have lost
20:07about 600,000
20:09good resources
20:13out of Malaysia
20:16and how many return?
20:18It is not even 1%.
20:20So we need to really
20:22do a lot of things
20:24to recalibrate,
20:26recharge,
20:27review
20:27and try to bring them back
20:30so that they can
20:31productively
20:32contribute
20:33with the right
20:34outcome
20:34for the country.
20:37Doctor,
20:38based on your observation,
20:40experience,
20:41and journey
20:41becoming president,
20:42CEO of a company
20:43and hire
20:45multiple talents
20:46from multiple
20:47diverse backgrounds,
20:49and if you're advising
20:50a Malaysian abroad
20:51right now,
20:51what are
20:52three questions
20:52they should ask
20:53before deciding
20:54to return?
20:57Precisely the same
20:58questions that
20:59we need to address
21:00as I explained
21:01a little earlier,
21:02i.e.
21:03are they going to
21:04given a decision
21:05right?
21:06Is there going to be
21:06a base of
21:07meritocracy
21:08and is it going
21:10to allow them
21:11to excel
21:12and work
21:13in the right
21:13trajectory?
21:15Now,
21:16those are the things
21:17that their people
21:18are looking for.
21:19Otherwise,
21:20they do not have
21:21the pull factor
21:23to bring them
21:23back to Malaysia.
21:25And forget not,
21:27the only thing
21:28that is happening
21:29in the world now,
21:31there's many
21:31assentancy
21:32geopolitically,
21:35geo-economically,
21:36and that is
21:38actually creating
21:39a lot of
21:41uncertainties
21:43even for families
21:45who have established
21:45themselves in countries
21:47that are experiencing
21:48that.
21:49So,
21:50I think
21:50it's a good time
21:52for them to come back
21:53but they need
21:55to also to be assured
21:56that when they come back
21:57they are allowed
21:59to excel
22:00in the right trajectory.
22:03And lastly,
22:05what will you tell
22:06your other colleagues
22:07and what will you tell
22:08other employees
22:09what can they do
22:11in the first 90 days
22:12to keep a returning
22:13engaged?
22:17Precisely,
22:18understanding
22:19firstly,
22:21what their skill set,
22:22knowledge and abilities
22:23and experience
22:24whether it is
22:26in a developed
22:28or developing
22:30countries
22:30and then
22:32making sure
22:33those
22:34skill,
22:36knowledge,
22:36abilities
22:37and experience
22:38are matched
22:39against
22:40what is expected
22:42for them
22:42to be able
22:44to deliver here.
22:45I always go back
22:47to the input,
22:48output,
22:48outcome,
22:49impact model.
22:50So,
22:51to bring them back
22:52maybe
22:52by telling
22:54that you can bring
22:55back some
22:56tax exemption
22:57for your car
22:58and this and that.
22:59But that's very,
23:00very,
23:00very,
23:01very cosmetic.
23:02But what is
23:03most important
23:04is that
23:04when they return,
23:06they must have
23:07that belief
23:07that look,
23:08I'm coming
23:09back to Malaysia,
23:11I want to be part
23:12of the
23:13whole,
23:14the new story
23:15of say
23:15the semiconductor
23:16for instance
23:17where billions
23:19are pouring
23:19into Malaysia
23:20for a country
23:22that is known
23:23for active neutrality
23:24to advance this.
23:26so I want
23:26to be part
23:27of that story.
23:29But if
23:29they're coming
23:30back and then
23:31they go back
23:32as quickly
23:33as they come
23:34back,
23:34that's another
23:35problem.
23:35It happened
23:36to one
23:37of the
23:38C-suite
23:39sovereign wealth
23:40fund.
23:41He came
23:42with a big
23:42ambition,
23:43big ideas,
23:45big stuff.
23:46Then he went
23:47back as soon
23:48as he came
23:48back.
23:50So the
23:51takeaway is
23:51returning talent
23:52isn't just
23:53about who
23:53comes back.
23:54It's about
23:54whether Malaysia
23:55can create
23:55the right
23:56rules,
23:56reduce
23:57frictions
23:57and build
23:58the conditions
23:59that make
23:59people stay
24:00and thrive.
24:00My thanks
24:01to our guest
24:01Dr. Raisu
24:02Sin,
24:02President and
24:03CEO of
24:04AME Research.
24:05That's our
24:06discussion for
24:06today.
24:07Thanks for
24:07watching and
24:08I'll see you
24:08next time.
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