- 7 months ago
Gaza remains a painful symbol of modern colonialism and imperialism. The international community has not done enough to support its victims. So what should we do? Catch the discussion tonight at 9PM.
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00:00Hello and welcome to Agenda Awani. I'm your host, Fana Shea.
00:11Today we're joined by young Ukrainians who are in Kuala Lumpur as part of a visit to engage with different sectors,
00:17from civil society to policy makers.
00:19One of the conversations they're keen to have is about the shared experiences between Ukrainians and Palestinians,
00:26two peoples navigating war, displacement and global power dynamics.
00:31So here with us in the studio is Jane, Vice President of Liberal Democratic League of Ukraine, LDLU,
00:39and Maria, Head of the East Asia Office, LDLU. Thank you so much for joining us.
00:44Thank you so much.
00:46It must be a long journey for you guys to come here, but what brings you to Malaysia
00:51and what are you hoping to share or learn during your visit? Let's start with that.
00:55So probably, first of all, Apa Kapa and Salamdari Ukraine. I'm really prepared.
01:05So basically what we are here for is to understand how to preach Malaysia and Ukraine closer.
01:12We want to meet with civil society actors, with politicians, with NGOs and with academia,
01:18because we believe that there is a great potential for cooperation and for intercultural dialogue between these two countries.
01:26Right. What about you, Maria? Why is it important for you to have this kind of relationship with, you know,
01:33in Southeast Asia or these kind of conversations in Southeast Asia?
01:36In LDLU, we have this goal to cover countries that are not very covered by our diplomatic efforts
01:46and by our civil society because of lack of connections. We are so far from each other.
01:51But still, it's not a reason not to cooperate. I think it's a reason to cooperate even more.
01:57Because despite the fact that we are located on different parts of this world,
02:02we have like different probably contexts in some cases, but we already mentioned some similarities
02:09and topics that we can discuss together and how we can cooperate.
02:15And for us, it's important to establish such kind of connections to spread our culture, our stories
02:22and to receive and spread among Ukrainians stories from Malaysia and Malaysian culture,
02:27because this is how we can make this world better, to know more about each other, to become closer with each other.
02:35Right. So, in terms of engagement with this part of the country, what have you done so far in terms of,
02:41you know, LDLU as an organization? What kind of outreach do you do?
02:48We started to work with Malaysia just recently, but we also discovered for ourselves that it's important
02:59to involve Southeast Asian stakeholders into cooperation with Ukraine, including the Philippines plus East Asian countries like Japan or Korea.
03:13And right now, we are trying to understand what kind of project can be done to develop particular things in both countries.
03:23Because we are not here just to ask for help. We are here to establish mutually beneficial cooperation,
03:32because Ukraine can offer this type of cooperation. And obviously, I think it's probably the best way how to become real friends,
03:42how to establish strong contacts, warm contacts with people. And we think that the most potential way to start this process
03:51is probably beginning with business opportunities, with trade opportunities. Also, I think it's important to talk about culture.
03:59As I mentioned, we have lack of information about Malaysia and Ukraine and vice versa probably here, I assume.
04:06So, it's important to spread culture to become closer. And that is why we are here, because one of our topics that we want to spread is like stories of Muslim population in Ukraine.
04:23We have a huge Muslim community that includes Crimean Tatarians, but not only. We have more than 2 million of Muslim people in Ukraine.
04:34So, 300 Muslim schools. And we, on the state level and on the civil society level, have been trying to promote this culture
04:44culture of the national and international arena. And it's important probably for us to connect Muslim people in Ukraine and here, for example,
04:55to share these, I don't know, similarities, to share probably some topics that could be painful or could be joyful.
05:06And just to become, I don't know, to organize such kind of experience exchange. And I think that this is a good step towards each other from the start.
05:20And in the future, I think we can go deeper and deeper.
05:23Right. I mean, it's definitely a good time to be here as well, since we just finished off ASEAN Summit 2025.
05:29And, you know, if you want to talk about, you know, interconnectedness with Muslims, we are Muslim majority countries.
05:36There's a big population of Muslims here. And I think one such issue that have always been talked about here is the issue of Gaza.
05:45I think we, our Prime Minister, is a strong proponent of the strong supporter of the Palestinian cause.
05:54So we've talked briefly about, out of camera, about the link between Ukraine and Palestine.
06:01So how do you personally see the commonalities between the two struggles?
06:06Yes. So first of all, I must say that we have like some united position with our government because Ukraine has recognized Palestine as independent state in 1992.
06:17Right. Just one year after we regained our independence. So once we were free from USSR, we can start at this diplomatic support.
06:26So when we talk about realities, sometimes people can even compare photos of bombed hospitals from Ukraine and from Gaza, children that are suffering, pregnant women, young males.
06:43Yes. If we compare numbers. So all facilities, all medical facilities now in Gaza are destroyed.
06:50In Ukraine, it's not so bad. It's still like 30% of facilities, but both countries are under constant attack from their neighbors.
07:03And when we talk about rhetoric that we use when we try to express our solidarity is that both peoples suffer from colonialists.
07:19Being next to a very big and hungry neighbor is a really devastating experience.
07:26Right. Maria, is this something that is felt deeply with all Ukrainians?
07:33I would say that right now in Ukraine, it's like a situation when we are experiencing shelling almost every night.
07:42And sometimes other worldwide news could wash out in this sea of pain that we have been experiencing every day.
07:54But we also remember about things that happened in Palestine.
08:00And obviously we have a lot of news on different channels like messengers, TV news and other channels that we can reach about what is happening in Palestine.
08:13So I think that we also need to be more acknowledged about suffering of other people that can relate to our struggle.
08:26And it's important to understand because we can see on our experience and Palestinian experience that a very similar approach can be used during such kind of conflicts.
08:42And I think that civilian population in Ukraine are pretty aware how it looks like, how it feels like to see what happened, how your place of birth, how your country is being destroyed.
08:58And we are witness of this situation of this feeling and we can say that nobody should experience this in the modern world.
09:11Right. So talking about the link here. So what does solidarity between Ukrainians and Palestinians mean to you or how does it look like in your personal opinion?
09:23So even when again, like I'm to the responsible probably for numbers.
09:27So if we compare diasporas, there are around 4000 Palestinians in Ukraine and there are around three and a half thousand Ukrainians in Gaza.
09:37These people share like living in two wars. It's just unimaginable. When you think about any of your motherlands, it's always coming with a picture of war.
09:52And of suppression and some identity questions. So when we speak about respect of borders, respect of international recognition, this is what comes into our mind.
10:10Dolce Maria has mentioned a number of mosques on the territory of Ukraine. We know that in Gaza sacred places are also targets.
10:19In Ukraine, our mosques are also targeted. One of the biggest mosques in Ukraine is located in the capital, in Kyiv. And last year it was also destroyed.
10:30Right. We, of course, like rebuilt it, but still sacred places shouldn't be target for rockets.
10:37Right. I mean, we've also seen some of the pictures. We've also seen some of the videos on here on our side, at least, you know, as journalists, we've seen them too.
10:45And, you know, the casualties are quite massive in Ukraine. And I do hope, you know, a peace deal or an end to the conflict will come sooner rather than later.
10:57But moving away from, you know, the numbers and the casualties a little bit, when we talk about global powers and selective solidarity, because, you know, we're drawing linkages between Palestine and as well as Ukraine, right?
11:12There's been a strong international response to Ukraine's war, especially from Western nations. We've seen it in the news. We've seen it, you know, in an announcement. Do you think Palestine receives the same level of global urgency?
11:27I would say Palestine and Ukraine both receive the same issues because right now we see that humanitarian aid that was collected by a lot of nations, Western nations included,
11:41the humanitarian aid is blocked from entering into Gaza. When, in 2023, the new Kohavka dump was blown up and people lost access to water, international organizations also collected some bottles on the border, but they also couldn't reach people on time.
12:03And I wouldn't say that the attitude is particularly selective because when we see protests,
12:11we can see the support of Ukraine, support of Palestine in different corners of the world. And sometimes probably people just don't have enough attention to cover all of these conflicts. But when we come together, we can enhance each other.
12:29If I may add probably communities of our countries and Palestinian communities worldwide is probably the biggest driver of changes. And back in 2022, if we are talking about like Ukraine example, we had like huge amount of different demonstrations, peaceful demonstrations for Ukraine, when people, Ukrainians, not only like supporters from worldwide,
12:58try to raise awareness, try to raise awareness about situation in Ukraine. And we can see this in Europe, in US and worldwide from Palestinian side.
13:08And I think that it's also like very helpful to raise awareness through such like civil society to civil society connections. And that is how we can reach the governments to show this support, to show this need to be supportive.
13:25I mean, I definitely agree. There has been sort of a movement, an increased movement when it comes to awareness of what's going on in Palestine when it first started compared to now, right?
13:35And also with Ukrainians cause as well when it first started compared to now, but if you talk, you know, a little bit deeper about the role of global superpowers, right?
13:45How do you view their role in either resolving or prolonging these conflicts, be it in both regions?
13:57It's so hard. It's quite a hard-hitting question. It's quite a hard-hitting question. It takes you a step back a little bit.
14:15Yeah, it's like a hard-hitting question. I mean, it's hard to be, it's hard to make any predictions right now because even again, I'm talking more about Ukraine example because I'm from Ukraine, obviously.
14:30But before full-scale invasion started, we saw a lot of predictions, different ones, sometimes positive, sometimes extremely negative for Ukraine and sometimes neutral.
14:43But what would unite all of these predictions, almost all, like probably majority, it actually, all these predictions have never happened in real life because it's too unpredictable.
15:00Right.
15:01And right now, obviously, we are hoping for the best. We are hoping for the fastest solution that will be fair for Ukraine and for like reestablishing peace war award.
15:18But what can we say, how it will end and when especially, it's hard to predict.
15:25And I think the same with Palestine and it only depends on people of Palestine, people of Ukraine, international community, decision makers and civil society.
15:38And we need to seek for the fair peace, not just peace, not just frozen conflict, but fair peace for every nation and people that deserve to live in peace and all people deserve to live in peace in their countries.
15:55Right.
15:56And to have their home not destroyed and to have their families not scared of loud voices.
16:05So this is probably the main idea because we need to be united and to seek for a fair solution of any conflict just to provide people what they deserve, the basic need to be alive and to live their lives.
16:24Right.
16:25And what is international community suggesting to both cases is ceasefire.
16:29And then it's really depends on who is going to guarantee this ceasefire.
16:35Right. I mean, we want to talk about you mentioned just now the youth engagement and the civil society and how we can sort of build this solidarity around this issue.
16:47But I want to talk about a slightly contentious issue that that has been circling in media, which is, you know, critics have said that they feel that the Ukraine benefits from a double standard in media and diplomacy compared to Palestine.
17:04Is that something that you feel is true or what do you say to those critics?
17:09So we believe that it can be part of narratives that want to game down Ukrainian advocacy efforts on the international stage.
17:22And when we talk about conflicts all over the globe, every part can receive this double standard treatment.
17:32Unfortunately, it really depends on what audience this message is sent to.
17:38We are here to show solidarity, to find common ways and like speaking about civil society, even the sign of watermelon that is strongly associated with Palestine.
17:49It was also a sign of liberation of Kherson, which is the south of Ukraine.
17:54And if we are like can probably say that we are part of expert community and we really try to be to keep ourselves posted on everything that's happening, especially we are talking about like security situations, civil society engagement.
18:13And I would say that inside Ukraine, we don't have any comparison or like, I don't know, like we are not seeking for benefit, like you say, from this comparison.
18:26And just to give an example, three years ago, I remember it was like small case when someone on the Twitter or somewhere in the social network,
18:38with not so many subscribers, but it became popular, decided to compare their situation and the number of shells that Ukraine have and in other conflict.
18:55And this person received a lot of criticism because all people who commented this post on the internet with comparisons that,
19:05oh, we are struggling the most because we have more shells, more explosions.
19:10People of Ukraine said, no, we cannot compare because this suffers even of one person.
19:16It's already a disaster. We are not, it's not a competition.
19:20We are struggling for, we are struggling for our life and for our freedom.
19:25So I think that this example can explain the mood of society.
19:30We know about many conflicts in the world and many suffers unfortunately still happening worldwide,
19:37but we never try to compare our suffers and say that somebody suffers more, somebody less,
19:44but just because of different, different surroundings.
19:49So yeah, it's not a case for discussion in Ukraine.
19:52Yeah. I mean, that's, I think that's unfortunately a lot of the narratives that, you know, that are out there, right?
20:01Because it's people who somehow don't live the experience, but they, they are either covering it or they are looking from, from afar.
20:10So I think, you know, it's important to have voices from people who are experiencing conflict or who are experiencing, you know, suffering to, to talk about their, their side of the story as well.
20:26So, so we can, we can make our own judgment with what happened, right?
20:30So we can hear from this side and we can hear from that side and then we can make our own judgment and, and see where, you know, where we can find a peaceful solution.
20:41I feel that's important to hear these voices.
20:45Right.
20:46You mentioned about youth and solidarity just now.
20:50Why is, or why is youth solidarity important in times of conflict?
20:55Why are people like, well, I guess I'm youth as well.
20:57So you and I, um, important, um, to support each other meaningfully, even, you know, if they're not in war zones.
21:05So usually, uh, youth is called as a future of society, but we believe that it's a present of society.
21:11So we are change makers.
21:14We are driving, uh, the development of our society.
21:18So if not us, who will express the solidarity?
21:22Who will take care about this justice?
21:25So, uh, also youth is quite, uh, uh, free to express and, uh, to, uh, share messages that can inspire other, uh, suffering, uh, sides.
21:37So that's why we believe that, uh, youth is a present, is a future and, uh, is, uh, definitely groups that, uh, needs and attention and, uh, investment of time and efforts.
21:49Right. So what do you hope youths from our region, um, can do in promoting peace and understanding as well?
21:55You know, either with regards to this issue or with regards to anything that you feel is important in this region.
22:01So youths in this region, how, how, how do you see our role in, in promoting peace and understanding?
22:07I can say that we had, uh, many meetings, uh, even for such a short period of time, uh, that, uh, we spent here in Malaysia.
22:19And, uh, many meetings were, uh, with, I say, like youth, representatives of youth of Malaysia.
22:27And I can say that during this meeting, we talked about, uh, many things that, uh, can build our future and present cooperation.
22:39And we can start from the dialogue and continue with the, like, practical things, common events, et cetera,
22:48for sharing each other's stories, ideas, culture.
22:53And I think that youth is, uh, youth are building future world for themselves.
23:01And, uh, that is why, uh, our participation in this process are so important because we will be living in this world.
23:08And, uh, we understand how important for us to live in this, like, let's say.
23:13Yeah, I mean, we are inheriting it as well.
23:15Yes.
23:16Yes.
23:17So, uh, that is why, uh, I think that it's great opportunity for us this reason to start not only with youth, uh, uh, with youth organization,
23:26but with any organization here.
23:28Right.
23:29We represent Ukrainian youth who wants to, uh, establish these connections.
23:34And we will start step by step, uh, by engaging, uh, with, in different activities.
23:39Uh, first of all, we can share culture.
23:42Then we can do some practical things, some practical projects, and go on, go on, go on, and to achieve great results.
23:48It's about building connection and understanding with each other.
23:52Um, right.
23:53One word, if you want to sum this up, or one sentence.
23:57What keeps you hopeful about the future?
24:01Either for Ukraine, for Palestine, or for youth globally.
24:04What keeps you hopeful for the future?
24:07And what does peace look like to you?
24:09So, I would like to quote our, uh, Muslim representatives.
24:14They worship and pray every time that this Khurambaram will be the last under rockets.
24:21So, this gives me a few.
24:23Okay.
24:24What about you?
24:25Probably.
24:26Probably.
24:27I believe that one day, uh, finally, uh, all people, all nations that are struggling for the freedom, for the peace, uh, will be able to receive it.
24:42And we'll be able to rebuild this world.
24:45Unfortunately, now a lot of places, including Ukraine and Palestine, need to be rebuilt, rebuild this world peacefully, and develop, uh, our countries, our lives without any penetration.
25:00Right.
25:01There you have it.
25:02Straight from the horse's mouth.
25:04Um, Maria and Jane, um, two young Ukrainians who are passionate about, um, you know, finding peace in a very conflicted world.
25:14Uh, and these are complex and sensitive issues.
25:17And while Malaysia continues to advocate for peace and justice through dialogue and diplomacy, hearing directly from those affected really would help deepen our understanding.
25:27So, we hope this conversation contributes to a broader reflection, uh, of solidarity, uh, on youth agency and the pursuit of peace.
25:36Thank you so much, Maria and Jane, for being here.
25:38And thank you to those watching at home.
25:39I am Farah Nashe.
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