- 7 months ago
In this urgent interview, Natalie Boucly of UNRWA delivers a harrowing account of Gaza’s humanitarian crisis. With children starving and aid blocked, Gaza’s cry for help grows louder each day. Will the global community respond—or remain silent as the suffering deepens? Catch the interview tonight at 9pm.
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00:00Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh
00:07Assalamualaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatuh
00:09This is our interview today
00:12We're going to give focus on what's now happening in the Middle East
00:16or what's happening in the region
00:19especially on Palestine and Gaza
00:21what's happening on the ground
00:23and what are the challenges faced by international organisation
00:28in order for them to elevate the suffering of those who are engaged in prolonged war
00:36and today we have a very special guest
00:39belongs to one of the United Nations agency
00:43with us today is Miss Natalie Buchli
00:47which is the Deputy Commissioner General Programme and Partnership
00:50of the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East UNRWA
00:57Thank you for joining us
00:58Thank you very much for having me
00:59The name itself is quite popular among Malaysians since the war on the 7th of October
01:06but among the challenges is for people to understand what does UNRWA do
01:11The things that we are reporting is much that UNRWA is giving food, giving humanitarian aid,
01:18trying to get as much as into Gaza
01:21Maybe we can start with what to actually do UNRWA
01:24Thank you very much for the opportunity
01:26So UNRWA, which is the United Nations Agency for Palestine Refugees
01:32It's a long name and we often shorten it to the United Nations Agency for Palestine Refugees
01:37was set up in the aftermath of the Israeli-Palestinian War in 1948
01:42and initially UNRWA was set up to provide humanitarian assistance to refugees who had fled from their home
01:49or were forcibly displaced
01:51At the time the member states but also the Palestinians thought that this was a temporary measure
01:57and that the refugees would go back to their homes
02:00They had fled to neighbouring countries, to Transjordan, to Lebanon, to Syria
02:04Unfortunately the situation has lasted now more than 75 years or 80 years
02:09and so across the years UNRWA then developed, became more of a development agency
02:16and left, I mean, was not so much of a humanitarian aid agency
02:21but started to provide basic services to the population
02:26So the core mandate of UNRWA is one of providing direct basic services
02:32in terms of education, health, social relief and social services
02:38solid waste management and disposal, microfinance room
02:43to the population, a bit like a state
02:45and these basic services are more of a development kind than humanitarian
02:49Now you mentioned the situation in Gaza and the humanitarian assistance that UNRWA is able to provide
02:55and yes, of course since the 7th of October
02:58UNRWA having a large footprint in all of these
03:01in the occupied Palestinian territory and Gaza in particular
03:05with 12,000 employees
03:07a large footprint all in the region
03:09the premises, the wherewithal, the community acceptance, the networks
03:14we stepped up again and provided food and other types of supplies
03:20but now with the blockade of the Israelis since the 2nd of March
03:24it's been very difficult to bring in supply driven assistance
03:28but we continue to work with our core mandate
03:31which is to provide whatever we can
03:33but essentially basic health services to this population
03:37very rudimentary educational services
03:41and of course still the solid waste management
03:43the wash which is the clean water
03:47and the solid waste management
03:49In the current situation
03:51amongst 2 million Palestinians in Gaza alone is displaced
03:56and I think a lot of facility which is funded by UNRWA now damaged
04:02because of the attacks by the Israeli forces
04:05so how does UNRWA operate now?
04:07because you said that now it's not just about food aid
04:10it's about education, it's about sanitary
04:12does all of those facilities still working?
04:14Yeah, so most of our
04:16we had about 300 installations or facilities in Gaza
04:20and most of them have been damaged
04:23if not destroyed
04:24for example, we operated 22 primary health centres
04:29like clinics, 6 of them are still functioning
04:31but what we did is set up mobile health teams
04:34so we set up up to 19 mobile health teams
04:37because we've got about a thousand health professionals in Gaza
04:41still working
04:42there are nurses, there are doctors
04:44and given that most hospitals have been destroyed
04:48or are barely functioning for those who remain
04:51the type of health care that we provide is critical for people
04:56there's no safe place in Gaza
05:00I mean, basically every 48 hours
05:03an UNRWA employee gets killed at the moment
05:07this is the situation
05:08and notwithstanding that situation
05:10we've got at least 10,000 employees there
05:13who are still working, have been repurposed in some way
05:17if formal education cannot be provided
05:20because our 183 schools cannot function in the state of war
05:25then it's informal education
05:27just getting the children to play
05:29to think about something else than just the bombs
05:32or to manage the shelters
05:34we have over 100 shelters with the IDPs in them
05:37so staff have found, have been repurposed in a way
05:41to lend a hand to the situation
05:44with psychosocial support also to the kids
05:47but the health part and the management of the waste
05:51the clean water, the psychosocial support that we can provide
05:55is priceless
05:56and these are basic services that nobody else can provide
06:00so your team on the ground is currently working hard
06:03to give the best service that they can
06:06but since we have the blockade by the Israeli government
06:09to allow humanitarian aid or any supplies to go into Gaza
06:13then how do you, the agency at the HQ
06:16do you communicate or you try to supply things
06:19through those on the ground? What was the strategy?
06:22So the blockade since the 2nd of March doesn't only affect UNRWA
06:25as an agency, it affects the entire UN system
06:28very little aid in terms of food
06:31is allowed to come in by the Israelis
06:34I believe that the World Food Programme
06:36is able to bring in a bit of food
06:39but it's nothing compared with the means
06:42we've got 6,000 trucks stuck outside Gaza
06:45in Egypt and Jordan in various corridors
06:47waiting to come in with food and with supplies
06:50that is at risk of expiring or getting spoilt
06:54but what we've done is
06:56essentially we no longer rely on supply driven services
07:01but we do what we were set up to do
07:04which is to provide direct basic services to the population
07:09of course people are starving
07:11and the mechanism that has been put into place
07:14to substitute the traditional aid delivery set up by the UN
07:19so this mechanism being through the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation
07:23is clearly not working
07:24so people are being left with no food at all
07:30very little food and are always at risk
07:32when collecting the food of being shot
07:34as you know hundreds of people have lost their lives
07:37trying to get the food
07:39this is a situation which is outrageous
07:41because it's not in line with the humanitarian principles
07:45and again about facilities
07:47that is under the supervision of UNRWA in Gaza
07:51I think a lot of it have been damaged
07:53as we mentioned earlier
07:55the UN logo itself is such a sacred logo
07:59which people think it is a logo of safety
08:02a logo where they can take shelter
08:05so that they can keep their families safe
08:07but then as we reported
08:09a lot of Israeli attack now targeting
08:12specifically UN and UNRWA facilities
08:15what do you have to say about that?
08:17do you engage with Israeli governments
08:19or through any other country
08:21so that we can keep that logo as sacred as it should be?
08:24yes, I think the sacredness of the logo
08:27has completely disappeared during this war
08:30unfortunately hundreds of people have been killed
08:32on our premises
08:33it means very little
08:34I mean even wars have roles
08:36and in addition to the privileges and immunities
08:39that the UN benefits from in terms of its premises
08:43there are also elements of proportionality
08:47and distinction that have not been applied here
08:50by the parties to the conflict
08:53every time
08:54you said we have control of our premises
08:56I have to tell you that we lost control of many of our premises
08:59we do not know
09:00and this is since the beginning of the war
09:03with the evacuation orders
09:04we do not know necessarily what's happening in some of our premises
09:07especially in the north and in Gaza City
09:09but with hundreds of people having been killed
09:13every time that we have
09:15that we encounter such an incident
09:20we protest
09:21we've written countless numbers of letters to the Israeli authorities
09:27but we don't get a reply
09:28because as you may know
09:30there's a no contact now policy under the Knesset laws
09:33that were passed at the beginning of the year
09:36we don't get a reply
09:37other than facilities under under supervision
09:42there's also an issue of refugee camps
09:44and there are few orders given up by the Israeli government
09:48to relocate all these refugees to other places
09:53so the question about refugee camps
09:57especially one of it is
09:59the demolition order for 100 buildings in Tulkarim
10:02ah, in the West Bank
10:04yes
10:05well it's quite a big issue
10:07even though it's not in Gaza
10:08we have been talking about Gaza since the beginning
10:10but then West Bank also affected by this
10:12absolutely
10:13so again you know
10:14ANRA has a large footprint there
10:16we've got over 3,000 employees working in the West Bank
10:19now since the 21st of January
10:21the Israelis have been conducting this wide scale
10:24the military operation
10:26called the Iron Wall
10:27particularly in 3 camps that you mentioned
10:30so Noor Hashem, Tolkarem
10:32and Jenin camps
10:36leading to the displacement of more than 40,000
10:39Palestine refugees
10:40we as an agency
10:43we operate 96 schools
10:4596 schools directly
10:47in the West Bank
10:48in the West Bank
10:49but 10 of these schools
10:50are in these camps
10:51which are now depopulated
10:52because of forced evacuation
10:54and displacement orders
10:56it is worrying
10:58and we have done all we can
11:01to either provide online education
11:04to the children
11:06because we're talking about 4,600 kids
11:08I think out of schools
11:09out of school there
11:10so online education
11:12or we provide social services
11:16which is like cash-based assistance
11:18we track the number of displaced people
11:22and some of them
11:23may be able to attend other schools
11:25this is what we've done
11:26but this is the largest operation
11:27since the second intifada in the 2000s
11:30I want to move on to again
11:32about the core mandate of UNRWA
11:34which is as you mentioned
11:35it's a mini state
11:37which do a lot of work
11:39other than humanitarian aid
11:40and then there is an issue
11:42about funding for UNRWA
11:45during the first early days
11:48of President Donald Trump administration
11:51in the White House
11:52he threatened to cut funding for WHO, UNRWA
11:55and other UN agencies
11:57so I want to give this space for you
12:00to give understanding to those who are watching us now
12:03that UNRWA need those fundings
12:05those fundings are critical
12:06not just for food aid
12:09but also others aid
12:10that need to be given to all these refugees
12:12Absolutely
12:13I think your description of UNRWA as a mini state
12:15is very apt
12:17it's very relevant
12:19because we provide the services that a state would provide
12:22but we do that in the absence of a state
12:25as I said at the beginning
12:26UNRWA was set up as a temporary agency
12:28it was not meant to last that long
12:30it was set up pending a just and lasting solution
12:34to the Palestinian issue
12:36with the years we substituted a state
12:39this is what we've been doing
12:40and so in order to do that
12:42you know it's not like other UN agencies
12:44where you have a project
12:46and if you don't get the funding
12:48you can just maybe reduce or cut the project
12:51here we're talking providing education to children
12:55and basic health services directly to the population
12:59if you don't have the funding
13:01what do you cut
13:02which school do you cut
13:03which grades do you cut
13:05which medical services do you choose not to provide anymore
13:09our funding contrary to other
13:11you know international organizations
13:14UN agencies
13:16it goes directly to mostly pay the salaries
13:20of nurses, doctors, teachers, school staff
13:23you know sanitation laborers
13:25who provide these services
13:27so the funding is critical for us
13:30and there's hardly any overheads
13:32I want to say this to people
13:35people who provide funding to UNRWA
13:37you can be sure that it goes directly
13:40to benefit the people
13:42in terms of the services that we provide
13:44and so we need to continue to get this funding
13:49especially as our mandate is coming up for renewal
13:53for next year the discussions will be held
13:57at the General Assembly this year
13:59and there has been a strategic assessment
14:03that has been commissioned by the Secretary General
14:06which looks into the way that UNRWA has been exercising
14:10and implementing its mandate amidst the constraints that we face
14:13which are financial, political, operational
14:16and the purpose of the strategic assessment is to set the ground for discussions
14:23with the member states at the level of the GA
14:25on the future of UNRWA
14:27but also the future of the Palestine question
14:30which is intrinsically linked to UNRWA as well
14:33our position is not tenable
14:35how long are we still going to provide
14:37or act like a state when we are a UN agency
14:41I think last week our Prime Minister met with President Emmanuel Macron in France
15:01and both of them voice out the very strong commitment towards peace in Gaza
15:08you mentioned just now there would be an assessment
15:11how UNRWA would work especially on funding
15:15does the voice from France give way to the urgency
15:19so that UNRWA can properly work on the ground
15:23not just in Gaza but on other countries where it provides assistance?
15:28So there's been a number of political tracks that have been happening lately
15:33there is the global alliance for the implementation of the two-state solution
15:37which is an initiative led by the Saudis, the European Union and the League of Arab States
15:42and UNRWA has been part of it
15:44which is to map out what a two-state solution would look like
15:48and how UNRWA would then hand over its services to empowered
15:54to an empowered Palestinian state or empowered institutions
15:58in parallel to that, France together with the Saudis
16:03had scheduled to stage an international peace conference in June in New York
16:09this has been postponed to the high-level week
16:12possibly in September in New York
16:15along with, you know, and it will precede the discussions
16:20on the renewal of the mandate of UNRWA
16:23and that strategic assessment which is now out, distributed to the member states
16:27through the President of the General Assembly
16:30is, as I said, a platform from which the member states will be able to see what are the options
16:37because the role, I mean here, the worst that could happen
16:40is a simple rubber stamping renewal of the mandate of UNRWA
16:44but without the financial means for us to continue to work
16:47without the political context within which we could transition
16:51without a proper discussion on the way in which we are able to work or not
16:55particularly in the occupied Palestinian territory
16:58given the constraints by Israel
17:00in Lebanon, in Syria and Jordan where we have also a large footprint
17:03we do work without any limitation
17:06Can you give us a little bit of what is the current state of UNRWA funding?
17:11Do you have enough? Do you have the same amount as last year?
17:14Does it reduce what has been said by President Trump?
17:17Or what is the current state of UNRWA funding?
17:20Of course we lost the US funding, we also lost Sweden
17:24Something very interesting has been happening here during the war
17:26and it's the following
17:29When states, we faced some accusations and some allegations last year
17:33and we take every allegations very seriously of breaches of neutrality
17:37and the purported involvement of our staff in the 7th of October, dreadful attacks
17:43and investigations were done, we never received any cogent evidence from the Israelis
17:50Every time an allegation is made, we look into it
17:53But because of the allegations, at the time we lost funding from 16 countries
17:57who came back except the US and later on Sweden
18:01The US has not come back, will not come back
18:03It's a major gap
18:04To your question, we do not have financial visibility beyond August
18:08and the gap is 200 million
18:10So our pledge is to go to the member states with whom we have multi-year agreements
18:15and for them to front load the money
18:17or to disperse in one go rather than in tranche
18:20so that we can stay afloat and we need to stay afloat
18:23for two reasons
18:24One, we have important discussions coming up at the level of the GA
18:27But two, people need us
18:29As I said, we have 33,000 employees
18:3333,000
18:35They are Palestinian
18:36Only 200 are, like me, international
18:39They are Palestinian
18:40and they are providing basic services to the Palestinian refugees
18:43in the countries and fields where we work
18:46But the interesting part that happened
18:48is that when countries lowered their contributions
18:51the private sector and private individuals
18:53particularly here in this country as well
18:56and that's why I'm here as well today
18:58stepped up their contribution
18:59and so in 2024 we had a record of 282 million from the private sector
19:07and private individuals who stepped up
19:09but that is not enough
19:10Our budget is 880 million and we fall short of 200 million to end the year
19:16You mentioned just now, among other things that UNRWA want to achieve
19:22is to give a state of Palestine itself to govern themselves
19:27rather than UNRWA is taking up that responsibility as a mini-state
19:31Is that the only long-term vision that UNRWA have?
19:34That's our mandate
19:37Our mandate is just to deliver services in the absence of a long-lasting fair solution
19:43to the plight of Palestine refugees
19:45But we call on member states
19:47that would be a decision of member states
19:49in the same way that the member states decided
19:51one year before UNRWA was created
19:53that the Palestine refugees through resolution 194
19:56in the Jarl Assembly would have a right of return
19:58or compensation in the alternative
20:02That has never been implemented
20:05A solution was never found
20:07It is not up to UNRWA, certainly not
20:09to have, we're apolitical
20:10We've been politicized, but we're apolitical
20:12We just deliver services
20:14and we deliver them in situations
20:16which are extremely difficult to work in
20:18But the member states have to gather
20:20and we're looking, we're calling on leadership there
20:24to finally find a solution to this problem
20:27because whether UNRWA exists or not
20:30the rights of refugees stand
20:32the right to self-determination
20:34the right of return or compensation
20:36and they have rights also to education, health and other services
20:40which in the absence of a state or national institutions
20:46providing these services, UNRWA has been asked to step in
20:50It's been 18 years since UNRWA has been doing their works
20:54based on their core mandates
20:56waiting for years and years
20:58to time where
21:00Palestinians can have their own government
21:02their own states
21:04right to self-determination
21:06Do you optimize that that mandate will end soon?
21:10Looking at what's happening now
21:12in terms of support
21:14not coming just from Muslim countries
21:16but also the Western countries
21:18the European countries
21:19but then again
21:20because for Malaysia
21:22they see that Muslim countries
21:24especially those who are part of OIC
21:26are not working hard enough
21:28in order for issues in Palestine to settle
21:31but for you
21:32as an agency of the United Nations
21:34how optimistic is it
21:36that this issue can be done
21:38and settled as soon as possible?
21:40Well first of all you can never lose hope
21:42you can't lose hope
21:43because you've got to continue working
21:45but here
21:47this is my first time in Malaysia
21:48and I'm really humbled
21:50to see the support that we're getting
21:54and how committed and knowledgeable
21:56the people of Malaysia
21:58the Malaysians are and have been
22:00and are committed to supporting UNRWA
22:04but through UNRWA
22:06Palestine Refugees
22:07through their core
22:08so I'd like to say thank you very much
22:09to start with
22:10to the country
22:11and to the leadership
22:12that the country has shown across the years
22:14and in particular yesterday
22:15I had the occasion to meet
22:17Tuna
22:19and it was such an inspiring moment
22:23because this is a man of decades
22:25of principal leadership
22:26but back to your question
22:28I have some optimism
22:29because of the strategic assessment
22:30which will hopefully put on the table
22:33in a way force the member states
22:34to have a discussion
22:35and I hope they have
22:37that they will be bold enough
22:38so let's have a discussion
22:39even just that would be success for us
22:42to discuss what is the future of UNRWA
22:44and the way for us to transition out
22:47would be part of a political horizon or solution
22:50it may take years
22:52but during these years
22:53we need to continue to work
22:55for an orderly transition
22:56the one thing I did not mention
22:58was the fact that we are the custodian
23:00of all the refugee files
23:02from 1948
23:04the registration of all the refugees
23:06where they came from
23:07their family
23:08the descendants
23:09all these documents
23:11are a testament to who is a refugee
23:13and this is critical
23:15for final status negotiations
23:17and you know
23:18if a solution was ever found
23:20then either determine
23:21who has the right to return
23:23or who has the right to compensation
23:25you mentioned just now
23:27number one is
23:28UNRWA is a political entity
23:30and then I've watched one of your message
23:32during your work in UNDP
23:34you encourage youth
23:36so that they can step up
23:37in whatever they want to do
23:39and then number three is
23:40youth actually contribute
23:42quite a lot to awareness
23:43of what's happening in Gaza
23:45and other times
23:46would you take this forum
23:48this space
23:49to give some message
23:50to youth who are watching us
23:51right now
23:52what they can do
23:53in order for them
23:55to support UNRWA works
23:56we just know
23:57you mentioned about
23:58how countries
23:59if they can sit and talk
24:00it's quite a success
24:01can youth also contribute
24:03of course
24:04you refer to my time
24:05when I used to work for UNDP
24:06and it's true
24:07we had a lot of youth programs
24:08look youth make up
24:10the vast majority
24:12of the population in Gaza
24:13so I think the youth
24:14across the world
24:15in Malaysia and elsewhere
24:16should be able to relate
24:17and to the youth
24:19I would say
24:20put yourself in the shoes
24:21imagine you're in Gaza today
24:22you've got no prospect
24:24all the institutions
24:25have been destroyed
24:26you've got no university
24:27you had a dream
24:28of becoming a doctor
24:29or a teacher
24:30and you cannot even study
24:32all you have all day
24:33is the sirens
24:34and the bombs
24:35and your families
24:36and your homes
24:37are being decimated
24:38and destroyed
24:39where do you think
24:42your future lies
24:43you know
24:44so I think the youth
24:45have an important voice
24:46to say look
24:47to mobilize themselves
24:49to say this is not
24:50what you know
24:52I want for the youth
24:53of this territory
24:54or this country
24:55and to say we need
24:56to mobilize ourselves
24:57and continue the advocacy
25:00for a ceasefire
25:01for the return of the hostages
25:03for peace to prevail
25:04but in the meantime
25:05also for those
25:06who provide a modicum
25:08of basic services
25:09and this is UNRWA
25:10and nobody else
25:11in terms of education
25:12even if it's very little
25:13even if it's online
25:15when we opened our online education
25:20modules
25:21you know
25:22at the beginning of the year
25:23in January
25:24because our schools were destroyed
25:25260,000 kids enrolled
25:28now that's not to say
25:29that they can all day
25:30be on their phones
25:31and download the material
25:32but the interest was there
25:34and I think this is something
25:35that the youth can relate to
25:36because here they have opportunities
25:38but in Gaza they don't anymore
25:40and that will be a lost generation
25:42thank you so much
25:43Ms. Boosley
25:44for speaking with us
25:45Ms. Strawani
25:46I think at the end of the day
25:47how the best data is the situation
25:49there is always hope
25:50and we must continue our advocacy
25:52for the work of humanitarian at large
25:55so that's all for now
25:56thank you Irfan Faruqi
25:57and Samur Abbas
26:12thank you
26:30you
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