- 9 months ago
As defence ties deepen, can ASEAN stay neutral? This episode of ASEAN KITA we speak to Dr. Lam Choong Wah from Universiti Malaya, where we unpack what the ASEAN–US defence talks really mean, how Malaysia walks the diplomatic tightrope, and whether the region is ready for real security cooperation.
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00:00Hi, good morning, I'm Amir Raiman and you're watching ASEAN Kita, a show where we explore the stories, challenges and opportunities that lies within the region.
00:16So with regional tensions simmering and superpower rivalry on the rise, ASEAN's role in defence cooperation is under sharper scrutiny than ever.
00:27Just days ago, ASEAN and the United States concluded a high-level defence ministers' meeting promising deeper security ties.
00:36But what does that really mean and how does Malaysia, as ASEAN chair, walk the tightrope between strengthening defence ties and maintaining neutrality?
00:47Joining us this morning is Dr Lam Chung Wah, Senior Lecturer at University of Malaya and an expert on regional security and defence strategy.
00:55Dr Lam, thank you for being with us. Let's start with the headlines for the average viewer who doesn't follow every ASEAN statement.
01:03What, in plain terms, did the recent ASEAN-US Defence Minister's meeting actually shift in terms of real security outcomes for the region, Dr?
01:13Yeah, good morning to everyone. Yeah, thank you for having me here.
01:17In plain terms, actually, it means that ASEAN and the United States, they wanted to maintain and also to preserve their traditional defence links and also their cooperation and also friendship.
01:33And previously, we, I mean, we are all worried that the new administration, which is a Trump administration, he would not pay attention on ASEAN.
01:44So, right now, when, after he sent his defence secretary to ASEAN to attend the Shanghai Rural Dialogue and then had a meeting together with all the ministers, defence ministers from ASEAN,
01:59then I think we have cleared the doubt that, yes, the United States, they are committed to have a cooperation with us.
02:07And I think we will still maintain the friendship and also the partnership together with them also.
02:15And according to the United States, the Secretary of Defence, he's read out, he said that, yes, he reaffirms the U.S. enduring commitment to working with ASEAN and also support for the central role of ASEAN.
02:34And also, he also mentioned that, yes, the U.S. is also committed for a free and open Indo-Pacific guideline, which is good news to us.
02:49And it means that in the future, next four years, we will work together.
02:56And the United States, they will not walk away from ASEAN.
03:01And ASEAN always say it is non-aligned.
03:04But the truth is, it is more, it's training more often with the U.S., doing more joint exercise and engaging in more military dialogues.
03:12At what point does hedging start looking like, taking sides?
03:18Yeah, definitely like what the Secretary has said, he talked about.
03:23He also mentioned, like I mentioned just now, and he talked about that they support the role of a centrality of ASEAN,
03:32which means that they will respect and also will let ASEAN to lead the cooperation between the United States and also ASEAN.
03:45So, in this case, it means that, yes, they will not force ASEAN to choose a side.
03:51And the second thing, in this circumstances, it means that ASEAN has a rule to manual work between big powers.
04:02For example, like with China and also with Russia and also the EU.
04:07So, when ASEAN can maintain their centrality, it means that we can choose, by one side, we can cooperate with the U.S.
04:17on the other side, we can cooperate with China or with Russia and other big powers.
04:24And in this line, it means that we can maintain our hedging strategy.
04:32And as well as we can maintain our equate distance with big powers, means that for the United States,
04:40with the United States, we can maintain maybe a kind of distance with them and with China, with a certain distance with them also.
04:50We are not pro-China, we are not pro-the U.S., we are not pro-luxure.
04:56We are neutral in this sense.
04:59So, since the U.S. Secretary has saved, he recognized our centrality, it means that our hedging strategy can be maintained.
05:09I know that you mentioned that just now that ASEAN is not pro-China or U.S. or pro-Russia.
05:15But perhaps, do you see any members of the region or the bloc already leaning a bit further than the rest?
05:26Yeah, definitely.
05:27The Philippines is kind of, I mean, a daughter of this, our position that they chose to side the U.S. totally.
05:37But since the Philippines, they also committed to stay in ASEAN.
05:46And also, they also adopted the ASEAN declaration, which was just issued in Kuala Lumpur recently.
05:55And also, with the ASEAN 245 vision.
06:01And in this 245 vision, it mentioned that all ASEAN member states are committed to maintain and preserve
06:10zone of peace, freedom, and neutrality, which was championed by Malaysia.
06:17Then, in this sense, it means that even though Philippines, they wanted to align themselves with the U.S.,
06:26they will still, I mean, respect the concept of Jofan.
06:31And they will try to balance this pro-U.S. and also ASEAN's authority policy.
06:39So, I wish, and also I foresee that they will, I mean, align and also adjust their foreign affairs policies,
06:52things like that, to, I mean, to suit the documents and also the declaration they committed to.
06:59And other than that, other ASEAN members, they are all committed to ASEAN now vision, which is ASEAN now,
07:09which is 2045 vision, and also Kuala Lumpur, the Galatian.
07:14Let's bring this closer to home as ASEAN chair.
07:18How can Malaysia gain tactically and diplomatically from stronger U.S. defense ties without appearing to alienate Beijing?
07:27Yeah, definitely. We have a strong cooperation ties with Beijing.
07:32And in this sense, we just concluded ASEAN plus GAF Cooperation Council as well as China summit.
07:43And after the conclusion of this summit, we have issued one joint statement.
07:49And in this joint statement, we reaffirm our cooperation.
07:54And also, we reaffirm our, I mean, ecodistance policy also, which means that we will not, I mean, pro-China.
08:05And also, we will not pro-U.S.
08:07And also, Beijing also respect our ASEAN centrality policy.
08:13So, in this sense, Beijing is open to this cooperation, this type of cooperation.
08:20And it means that they will commit to further, I mean, deepening our defense ties and also economic ties also.
08:32So, we, I don't foresee that our traditional cooperation partnership with U.S.
08:41will jeopardize our cooperation with Beijing.
08:44I don't see in this sense.
08:47Yeah.
08:48So, we know that diplomacy often happens quietly over, so perhaps over the six months, what are behind the scenes diplomatic tools or outreach code Malaysia used to help keep both Washington and Beijing engaged while avoiding the accusation of being biased at the same time?
09:07Okay.
09:08For example, like our Prime Minister, Dr. Suri Ahmad Ibrahim mentioned that even though, I mean, the U.S., they did not send any high representative to attend our ASEAN meeting.
09:22Our side is committed to meet the U.S. side.
09:27And our Prime Minister, he mentioned that even the future meeting can be arranged according to the U.S., I mean, the available time.
09:37And we are also, I mean, able to go to Washington to meet them, to meet with their president and also maybe their high level officials.
09:50So, it means that, yes, we are committed to maintain this partnership with U.S.
09:56And also, yet, in this sense, we also, in our Kuala Rumpur declaration and also ASEAN Vision 2045, we committed to preserve our AOIP, ASEAN Open International and Open Indo-Pacific policy.
10:17And in this kind of policy, which is to suit and also to align with the U.S. and also Japan, their policy, also their foreign visions.
10:29So, in this sense, we are committed to maintain this relationship with the U.S.-led rules-based world order.
10:41And on the other hand, we also committed to further our cooperation with even Russia and also with China and in a multi-spectrum of cooperation.
10:55So, I think we, so far, we have managed to engage big powers and also super powers in a very, very balanced way and also in a kind of healthy way also.
11:10Dr. We keep hearing that ASEAN is only as strong as it is its secretariat.
11:17But it is often criticized as too weak to implement or enforce anything.
11:22Is it time for Malaysia to lead the call for a better funded or more empowered defense coordination unit inside the secretariat itself?
11:30Dr. Yeah, definitely. Actually, I echo with the calling and definitely this time to, I mean, level up the capability and also the coordination capacity of our ASEAN secretariat.
11:46And as far as I'm concerned, right now, ASEAN secretariat only staff with 200 people and definitely is not enough to carry out a lot of programs and also projects entrusted by ASEAN.
12:06And yes, but expanding the workforce, definitely it will consume and also to have more fun.
12:16And given the financial constraint by ASEAN, we are all, nearly all of us are not developed countries and except for Singapore and also Brunei.
12:25And financial, I mean, a budget will be the big obstacle for us to expand the ASEAN secretariat.
12:33And second thing, actually, in our ASEAN structure or architecture, we don't, I mean, empower ASEAN secretariat to carry out more, I mean, work or other jobs.
12:50So, if we wanted to expand the ASEAN secretariat to let them to have more, I mean, capacity to have more work or to carry out programs, then we have to change our current ASEAN structure and also architecture.
13:07And other than that, we have to chip in more, I mean, financial support to ASEAN secretariat.
13:14But definitely, it will need all of the members of ASEAN to have a consensus to, I mean, elevate the ASEAN secretariat capacity.
13:25I don't think it can be done within a short period.
13:30But if we have this vision and also this consensus, I think it can be done within a possible near future.
13:38Definitely, if ASEAN secretariat is empowered more, then we will have more cohesion and also our ASEAN members can integrate more and more.
13:50Definitely, I support this idea. And when it comes to a proper defence coordination, I think there is a little bit difficult to do that because defence coordination is considered as a high politics among all the members.
14:07And when it comes to a high politics means that it is quite sensitive. And we will want to maintain our sovereignty and also our autonomy in this sense.
14:22So, we, it is more proper for us to take, I mean, a stage, step-by-step ways to elaborate our defence and coordination.
14:36Because we have to have more, I mean, a confidence building and also to reach consensus.
14:45Because without consensus, ASEAN cannot move forward. So, this, and also this in ASEAN way also.
14:52Normally, when we want to reach or to carry out a programme and also one single decision, we will forge a decision and also consensus first.
15:04We will know, we will not force a decision on all the members. We will not do that. This is not an ASEAN way.
15:12So, we have to follow our ASEAN way to carry out a proper defence coordination.
15:17Well, that was Dr. Lam Cheong Wah on ASEAN's growing defence dilemma.
15:23We still have a lot more to unpack but we will take a short break and we will be right back after this.
15:29Welcome back to ASEAN Kita. We are continuing our discussion with Dr. Lam Cheong Wah on ASEAN's growing defence dilemma and how Malaysia as chair can help guide the region through tough, turbulent, geopolitical waters.
15:58Now, Doctor, now to the South China Sea, still one of the biggest sources of tension within the region.
16:04What is the most practical and low risk measure that ASEAN could take this year to reduce the chance of accidental conflict?
16:12Are we talking about shared sea lane agreements or perhaps a real-time naval hotline or regular joint patrols, Doctor?
16:20Alright, when it comes to the South China Sea dispute, definitely it is a very, very sensitive issue.
16:26And also, we all member states within ASEAN, we have different approaches.
16:33However, there is one binding policy that we adhere to which is South China Sea declaration of conduct which was agreed upon in 2002.
16:50And these documents have already set out the calculations and also what we can do or what we cannot do.
17:00So, however, this document or this declaration is not carried out properly.
17:07And also, not every one of the members, including China, including the Philippines, they respect this document and also the declaration fully.
17:21And for example, like a flashpoint, the confrontation between China and also the Philippines, it has already attracted a lot of observations and also a lot of attention from not only this region and also all over the world.
17:42So, I can see that in this flash, I mean, this dispute or this confrontation, China is taking a very, very cautious step not to elaborate or not to, I mean, elaborate the whole thing.
18:01And they just maintain using water cannon and not to use hot weapons.
18:10And if you use hot weapons, then the whole thing will escalate.
18:14So, so far from 2023 until 2025 and no single bullet was fired.
18:24So, I think the whole thing is still in a manageable situation.
18:31So, I think this situation will continue for a while.
18:36But we have to do more to maintain and also to preserve stability within this region.
18:43For example, like our host, you mentioned that she shared sealings and a real-time hotline.
18:49And actually, we already have a real-time hotline among all the members.
18:53And we have a real-time hotline among, together between China and also with ASEAN.
19:00And this already set up within their navies and also their maritime enforcement agencies.
19:07And the problem is we have a big difference when it comes to sovereignty, when it comes to our sovereign claims.
19:16And sometimes we declare that this part belongs to us, that part belongs to you and something like that.
19:23We have a big difference in this sense.
19:25And even we have a quarrel among our ASEAN member states also.
19:30So, in this sense, we, ASEAN, we have to find our own consensus first.
19:36Like, previously I mentioned that the Philippines, their policy is to align with the US on the one hand.
19:48And on the other hand, they also committed to maintain ASEAN security and also ASEAN neutrality also.
19:57So, for the Philippines, they have to implement what they are committed to and also to come back to ASEAN way to solve our problem.
20:14Not to use, I mean, that kind of maybe a more, a little bit aggressive manner.
20:24So, means that they always use that kind of more provocative manners to provoke China.
20:32I mean, so in this sense, they have to take more practical steps, like to tone down the confrontation with China.
20:40And other than that, China also, they wanted to approach with the Philippines to talk and also discuss and to manage their dispute.
20:51So, I do welcome them to have a, I mean, a more proper and also more, I mean, a peaceful discussion in this sense.
21:03But when it comes to ASEAN ourselves, definitely we are all committed to conclude the COC,
21:09could conduct discussion and also negotiation.
21:12We all, I mean, including China, we are all committed.
21:17But the problem is, on a certain terms, we are not having any consensus.
21:23So, I think it will take time, it will take time to conclude the discussion of COC.
21:31When COC, could conduct, is concluded, I foresee that this COC will be a binding document
21:39and it will bind all of the behaviors and also our activities in this South China Sea.
21:48That's on South China Sea.
21:50And we have also another issue, which is Myanmar, that continues to dominate ASEAN's internal political agenda.
21:56Do you believe that taking tougher action against the junta would help ASEAN's overall credibility on defense and security?
22:05Or, perhaps, would it divide the bloc even more?
22:09Alright, when it comes to Myanmar issue, when our host, you mentioned that about
22:16we should take tougher action on Myanmar.
22:20But then the question is, what kind of steps we can take?
22:25For example, do we want to take, to sanction them?
22:30Or do you want to, I mean, to interfere their domestic politics?
22:37So, when it comes to the first question, do you want to sanction them?
22:41I think in ASEAN, nearly all, first, we are developing countries.
22:48Actually, we don't have many cuts.
22:51I think, in this sense, we don't have many cuts to sanction them or to influence them also.
22:57And now, on the second question, when it comes to interference,
23:02we, all ASEAN members, are committed not to interfere individual member states' domestic politics.
23:12So, in this sense, these two questions already rule out the possibility of ASEAN to take tougher action on Myanmar.
23:25But, we, ASEAN, have our own way to solve this Myanmar issue.
23:32Which is, we try to bring two sides, I mean, from Myanmar Junta and also PDD for us, to come together, to have a discussion, to have a, I mean, to talk to each other.
23:47And currently, the both sides, I mean, those are Belgian sides, the both of them, they did not talk to each other.
23:55So, the first thing, we want them to talk to each other.
23:58And also, for the time being, we, ASEAN, also have already put forward a five-point consensus policy.
24:05So, we call upon both sides to adhere to a five-point consensus.
24:14And this five-point consensus should be the ground and also the basic to reach the peaceful solution and resolution for this crisis.
24:32And definitely, since ASEAN, we are not going to interfere with domestic politics and it is going to take time.
24:43And currently, our Prime Minister, Dr. Sri Ramai Brahim, he has acted on activity.
24:51And also, he has appointed previous, our former Thailand Prime Minister and also to help us to discuss and also to approach certain Myanmar leaders.
25:05So, it's not going to, I mean, to be solved within a days.
25:11And, however, definitely, we are taking steps on the right path.
25:18Dr. As we head toward the next summit, what's one obvious or perhaps tangible sign that we should look for that tells us that ASEAN Defense Corporation is actually working, Dr?
25:33Yeah, definitely, we, our ASEAN Defense and also military compilation, we need to enhance it.
25:43And currently, actually, we already conducted several multilateral defense and also military exercises together.
25:52And, under the umbrella of ASEAN political and also security community, we are committed, I mean, to maintain this region in peaceful and also in a stability way.
26:06And, however, like I mentioned a couple of times just now that nearly all of the ASEAN members, they are developing countries.
26:14And our development stage is also different.
26:18So, in this sense, we, if we want to have more military compilation means that we have to chip in more, I mean, to upgrade our military capacity.
26:31So, in this sense, it means that we have to expand our defense budgets.
26:37Definitely, it will, I mean, have a little bit of problem in every individual state.
26:44And, like for example, like in Malaysia, actually, our defense budget is not as big as others.
26:50And nearly, yearly, we just maintain our defense budget at around 17 or 18 billion of ringgit.
27:00And actually, it already accounted for nearly 1% of our GDP.
27:06Definitely, it's not enough.
27:07We have to expand our defense budget to upgrade and also to keep up with the defense and modernization.
27:14But, on the other hand, we have to also look into our financial constraints.
27:21And we want to have more guns or we want to have more butter.
27:28And these are the choices we have to make.
27:30And eventually, our country, we have decided to maintain our economy first and also to stimulate our economic growth first.
27:43So, in this sense, we decided not to put in so much financial budget in defense sector.
27:52So, I think this is the same situation faced by other countries, especially against the backdrops of trade war and also the war of uncertainties in economic development.
28:06So, all of us, we will not put in so much resources in defense sector.
28:12And another matter is, currently, we are all not facing a big military or traditional security threat.
28:25So, if we are not facing a big or imminent security threat, means that we will not put more and more resources in our defense sector.
28:35So, definitely, when it comes to have more military cooperation among our members, it will take time.
28:44Definitely, it will take time.
28:46But, so far, policy wise, we are taking the right step.
28:54That we will slowly enhance our defense coordination and also multilateral cooperation step by step.
29:04From join military exercises to join defense planning or maybe to have more and more coordination in near future.
29:17Well, we would like to thank Dr. Lam Chung Wah, Senior Lecturer at University of Malaya and an expert on regional security and defense strategy for helping us unpack what SEC State and ASEAN's involving defense partnership
29:30and the delicate role that Malaysia must play in balancing strength with neutrality.
29:34That's all the time that we have for an ASEAN kita today.
29:36I'm Amr Raymond.
29:37Thank you for watching and see you next time.
29:38Thank you for watching and see you next time.
29:39Thank you for watching and see you next time.
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