- 4 months ago
In an exclusive interview, Prof. Dr. Farish A. Noor (Professor of Politics and Political History at the Faculty of Social
Science, Universitas Islam Internasional Indonesia) unpacks Malaysia’s role as a middle power in the region, balancing diplomacy between Thailand and Cambodia. At the heart of it? Defending ASEAN centrality in an increasingly fragmented world.
Science, Universitas Islam Internasional Indonesia) unpacks Malaysia’s role as a middle power in the region, balancing diplomacy between Thailand and Cambodia. At the heart of it? Defending ASEAN centrality in an increasingly fragmented world.
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00:00How do you think Malaysia was able to convince both sides to come to the negotiating table in Malaysia?
00:09Well, I think first of all, the very fact that Malaysia was able to convince both sides to come to the negotiating table in Malaysia is an achievement.
00:23And that's undeniable because it shows that despite the differences, the political differences that may exist among ASEAN member states,
00:35and despite the occurrence of tension and even hostility among some ASEAN states,
00:42the fact that both Thailand and Cambodia could be convinced by Malaysia to come to the negotiating table in an ASEAN country
00:53underscores the fact that the principle of ASEAN centrality is still very relevant.
00:58And I think in a sense, this was an achievement not only for Malaysia, but it was also an achievement for ASEAN.
01:04Because it would be, for me, very disappointing if the negotiations were held outside ASEAN, say in Washington or Beijing or Moscow or whatever.
01:16Because it would seem to suggest that the countries of ASEAN do not have faith in the mechanisms that ASEAN have put in place.
01:23So in this respect, I think this was all around a very positive outcome.
01:29It says a lot about Malaysia's ability to convince member states that our problems, our issues in the ASEAN region,
01:39ought to be handled by ASEAN members themselves in ASEAN.
01:43And it also says a lot about the two countries, Thailand and Cambodia, that were willing to come to negotiate in a neutral third country within the ASEAN region.
01:55So all in all, I would say that this is a very positive outcome.
01:59And I think, of course, other countries might want to claim credit for it.
02:04But the fact remains that this was an issue that affected the countries of ASEAN primarily.
02:09And in the end, the countries that came together and the countries that organized this were all ASEAN members.
02:15So I think we tend to forget that ASEAN has played a very important role in maintaining peace and stability in this part of the world for decades now.
02:24ASEAN is almost 60 years old.
02:26And I think for that reason, despite the talk of trade wars, geopolitical conflicts or what have you, ASEAN is still very much a relevant body.
02:36And I think credit should go to Malaysia for upholding this principle.
02:42Because for me, the principle of ASEAN centrality is a very, very important principle that we should all abide by.
02:51And I think it's important that the countries, in this case the two countries that were at odds with one another,
02:57recognize that this is an issue that does affect the rest of the region, right?
03:03And so I think for us who live in Southeast Asia, we should, I think, be thankful that an outcome has been reached and it's been a positive one.
03:14I think what the recent peace accord between Thailand and Cambodia shows us is that if and when the affected countries are willing to go down the path of negotiation and resolution,
03:28then we can achieve possible positive outcomes.
03:31And I think in the case of the conflict that we see in Myanmar now, that is a very complex conflict because it's an internal civil conflict.
03:38Although it also has, you know, geopolitical implications because there are external actors involved as well.
03:44Now, I think here it, you know, it is important for Myanmar as a member of ASEAN to recognize that whatever issues it's facing,
03:54these issues, such conflicts, do have an impact on the rest of the region.
03:59And this is the price that all member states have to pay because when you join ASEAN, you recognize the fact that although you hold on to the principle of sovereignty,
04:08national sovereignty and self-determination, if and when issues like this emerge, civil conflict or what have you,
04:16these will have an impact on your neighbors.
04:19So there is a sense of obligation that all member states ought to have that they must be aware of the fact that if and when their domestic problems have a regional impact,
04:31they are in a sense, you know, obligated to work with their neighbors because we are immediately affected by what happens in Myanmar.
04:40So I hope that this resolution that we see now between Thailand and Cambodia will be another example of how ASEAN can move forward.
04:50And this is going to be very important because ASEAN centrality will become more and more important in the years and decades to come.
04:57Because as we all know, right, our region is strategically and economically, you know, very vital to the global economy and the whole world is watching us.
05:07So it's incumbent upon all the states of ASEAN to try their best to play by the rules of the game, the ASEAN rules of the game.
05:15And so I hope that, you know, we will not relent in our efforts to bring about some kind of meaningful lasting stability and peace for Myanmar.
05:24Because it's not simply stability for Myanmar, it's stability for ASEAN as well.
05:28It would be the responsibility of any country that happens to be the chair, that holds the chairmanship of ASEAN at that time.
05:34And so, of course, with the chairmanship comes an enormous amount of responsibility, particularly in times of crisis.
05:42And of course, you know, I think Malaysia has taken this responsibility very seriously because we know what it entails.
05:50And I think the same would apply to any country that would be the chair of ASEAN at any particular time.
05:57Of course, the problem arises if at that point in time a country that is the chair of ASEAN is also involved in conflict because then it compromises, you know, its ability to behave in an objective and neutral manner.
06:12I think the advantage that Malaysia had at this time was that, you know, we are on good terms with all these countries.
06:18And I think it was important to convey the impression that we would be an honest broker in this negotiation.
06:28And thankfully, I think we are all thankful for the fact that it has, you know, yielded positive results.
06:34And we hope that this peace will be a lasting one.
06:36I think any country that is a member of ASEAN must also recognize the limitations that it has.
06:45We are all members of ASEAN. The member states of ASEAN belong to an association that was put together in 1967 with the intention of ensuring a viable and lasting peace in our region.
06:59Because we are all trading nations. And for trade to happen, we need stability and continuity.
07:06Now, beyond ASEAN, of course, you know, whether any country in Southeast Asia can play, you know, a role in, say, a conflict in South Asia or Central Asia or East Asia or now.
07:18That, of course, will depend on a host of variables, you know, to what extent that country is known, to what extent that country is accepted.
07:26So beyond the ASEAN region, I think our remit or our influence, you know, might diminish somewhat.
07:34But that's natural because we are not hegemonic powers and we have no hegemonic ambitions.
07:39ASEAN, you have to remember, was something that was on the one hand inclusive and exclusive at the same time.
07:46Because our primary focus, the foundation of ASEAN itself, remember in 1967, was to ensure that this part of the world, Southeast Asia, would not be dragged into wider geopolitical conflicts of the Cold War.
08:00And so that has been our mandate, that our primary intention is to ensure stability for us.
08:06So in the sense, on the one hand, we are inclusive, we would like all Southeast Asian states and nations to be part of ASEAN and to feel that they are members of ASEAN.
08:17But on the other hand, we have never, ASEAN as an institution, has never demonstrated an inclination or desire to go beyond the borders of Southeast Asia.
08:32So that's why if you look historically, our role, maybe as individual states, Malaysia's role, for example, during the Bosnian conflict, right, that was taken unilaterally by Malaysia.
08:44Indonesia has done the same, Thailand has done the same, depending on the circumstances.
08:48Because I think all the countries, we are not homogenous, yeah.
08:52Different countries have different profiles and they have different alliances.
08:56Some countries are closer to East Asia, some countries are closer to South Asia.
09:01So I think it's difficult for us to generalise that way.
09:04The main thing for me, because I'm a committed ASEANist, is I would like to see ASEAN thrive and prosper.
09:11Because that is absolutely central and crucial to the welfare and the wellbeing of the people of Southeast Asia.
09:18So for us, I mean, I might sound a bit biased here, but ASEAN comes first, Southeast Asia comes first.
09:25Our neighbours, our immediate neighbours, always must come first.
09:30Because whatever happens, it's like if your neighbour's house is on fire, you're going to be affected, right?
09:34So you have to do something.
09:35And I think, you know, I'm happy by the outcome of this because it shows, despite all the criticism that ASEAN has received from outside,
09:45that, you know, in many ways the ASEAN spirit is still there.
09:49You know, it might be challenged at the moment by all these geopolitical, geoeconomic shifts,
09:55but to a large extent, many, most of the countries of Southeast Asia that are members of ASEAN
10:02still seem to know or show that ASEAN as an institution, as an association, is still relevant to us.
10:12And I think that's important.
10:13One important thing is to always cultivate an image of being an honest broker that does not have, you know, double standards, of course.
10:22I mean, we are all familiar with the way in which, you know, certain developed countries, you know,
10:27on the one hand, preach human rights, but then abuse human rights at the same time.
10:30So we don't have that image.
10:32And I think that's important.
10:33It's very important for us to constantly, you know, be aware of the optics of geopolitics, yeah?
10:43How we are seen and how we present ourselves as an honest broker, as a reliable partner.
10:50These things are going to be important, regardless of who is in power, regardless of, you know, who's in power.
10:55And I think Malaysia, by and large, has demonstrated that.
10:59We have been very consistent.
11:01If you look at in the past, you know, during the anti-apathite struggle, even though, you know, many countries were not as vocal as Malaysia was.
11:11But Malaysia was very vocal because we took a principled stand that apathite, you know, institutionalized apathite in South Africa was something that was morally unacceptable.
11:22And we never wavered from that position.
11:25And I think now, you know, when we talk about, you know, economic inequality, political inequality, social justice, the issue of Palestine and things like that,
11:36we have been, I believe, you know, vocal and consistent without attempting to, you know, negotiate or play games about it.
11:45And I think that consistency ultimately builds over time, you know, a reputation for reliability and trustworthiness.
11:57And I think for that reason, you know, the two countries, you know, Thailand and Cambodia probably felt that, you know, it would be wise to take up the invitation to negotiate a settlement in a country like Malaysia,
12:13that has shown that it's not partisan to either one, right?
12:17And I think that's important because this would be the case in any dispute, even if it's a marital divorce, you know, you need a judge who doesn't favor the husband or the wife, right?
12:27So it's the same thing, right? So it's basically this constant need to manage our image and to be consistent in, you know, the positions that we take.
12:38Yeah.
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