- 6 months ago
As defence ties deepen, can ASEAN stay neutral? This episode of ASEAN KITA we speak to Dr. Lam Choong Wah from Universiti Malaya, where we unpack what the ASEAN–US defence talks really mean, how Malaysia walks the diplomatic tightrope, and whether the region is ready for real security cooperation.
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00:00Hi, good morning, I'm Amir Raiman and you're watching ASEAN Kita, a show where we explore the stories, challenges and opportunities that lies within the region.
00:24So with regional tensions simmering and superpower rivalry on the rise, ASEAN's role in defence cooperation is under sharper scrutiny than ever.
00:35Just days ago, ASEAN and the United States concluded a high-level defence minister's meeting promising deeper security ties.
00:44But what does that really mean and how does Malaysia, as ASEAN Chair, walk the tightrope between strengthening defence ties and maintaining neutrality?
00:55Joining us this morning is Dr Lam Chung Wah, Senior Lecturer at University of Malaya and an expert on regional security and defence strategy.
01:03Dr Lam, thank you for being with us.
01:05Let's start with the headlines for the average viewer who doesn't follow every ASEAN statement.
01:11What, in plain terms, did the recent ASEAN-US Defence Minister's meeting actually shift in terms of real security outcomes for the region, Dr?
01:21Yeah, good morning to everyone.
01:23Yeah, thank you for having me here.
01:25In plain terms, actually it means that ASEAN and the United States, they wanted to maintain
01:33and also to preserve their traditional defence links, and also their cooperation, and also friendship.
01:41And previously, we all worried that the new administration, which is a Trump administration,
01:49he would not pay attention on ASEAN.
01:52So right now, when after he sent his defence secretary to ASEAN to attend the Shanghai Rural Dialogue,
02:02and then had a meeting together with all the defence ministers from ASEAN,
02:07then I think we have cleared the doubt that, yes, the United States, they are committed to have a cooperation with us.
02:16And I think we will still maintain the friendship and also the partnership together with them also.
02:23And according to the United States, the Secretary of Defence is written out.
02:30He said that, yes, he reaffirms the US enduring commitment to working with ASEAN and also support for the central role of ASEAN.
02:42And also, he also mentioned that, yes, the US is also committed for a free and open Indo-Pacific guideline,
02:54which is good news to us.
02:58And it means that in the future, next four years, we will work together.
03:03And the United States, they will not walk away from ASEAN.
03:09And ASEAN always say it is non-aligned.
03:12But the truth is, it is training more often with the US, doing more joint exercise and engaging in more military dialogues.
03:20At what point does He Jing start looking like taking sides?
03:26Yeah, definitely like what the Secretary has said, he talked about.
03:30He also mentioned, like I mentioned just now, and he talked about that, they support the role of a centrality of ASEAN,
03:40which means that they will respect and also will let ASEAN to lead the cooperation between the United States and also ASEAN.
03:52So in this case, it means that, yes, they will not force ASEAN to choose a side.
03:59And second thing, in this circumstances, it means that ASEAN has a rule to manual work between big powers.
04:09For example, like with China and also with Russia and also the EU.
04:15So when ASEAN can maintain their centrality, it means that we can choose, by one side, we can cooperate with the US.
04:25On the other side, we can cooperate with China or with Russia and other big powers.
04:32And in this line, it means that we can maintain our hedging strategy and as well as we can maintain our equate distance with big powers.
04:45It means that for the United States, with the United States, we can maintain maybe a kind of distance with them and with China, with a distance, a certain distance with them also.
04:57So we are not pro-China, we are not pro-the US, we are not pro-luxure, we are neutral in this sense.
05:07So since the US Secretary has saved, he recognised our centrality, it means that our hedging strategy can be maintained.
05:17I know that you mentioned that just now that ASEAN is not pro-China or US or pro-Russia, but perhaps do you see any members of the region or the bloc already leaning a bit further than the rest?
05:32Yeah, definitely.
05:33Yeah, definitely.
05:34The Philippines is kind of, I mean, I thought of this, our position that they chose to side the US totally.
05:45But since the Philippines, they also committed to stay in ASEAN, and they also adopted the ASEAN declaration, which was just issued in Kuala Lumpur recently, and also with the ASEAN 2345 vision.
06:08And in this 2445 vision, it mentioned that all ASEAN member states are committed to maintain and preserve the zone of peace, freedom, and neutrality, which was championed by Malaysia.
06:25Then in this sense, it means that even though Philippines, they wanted to align themselves with the US, they will still, I mean, respect the concept of Jofan.
06:40And they will try to balance this pro-US and also ASEAN security policy.
06:47So, I wish, and also I foresee that they will, I mean, I mean, align and also adjust and follow the affairs policies, things like that, to, I mean, to suit the documents and also the declaration they committed to.
07:08And other than that, other ASEAN members, they are all committed to ASEAN vision, which is ASEAN vision, which is ASEAN vision, which is ASEAN vision, which is ASEAN vision, which is 2045 vision, and also Quarampo de Galation.
07:24Let's bring this closer to home as ASEAN chair.
07:27How can Malaysia gain tactically and diplomatically from stronger US defense ties without appearing to alienate Beijing?
07:35Yeah, definitely, we have a strong cooperation ties with Beijing, and in this sense, we just concluded ASEAN plus GAF Cooperation Council, as well as China summit.
07:52And after the conclusion of this summit, we have issued one joint statement.
07:57And in this joint statement, we reaffirm our cooperation, and also we reaffirm our, I mean, ecodistance policy also, which means that we will not, I mean, pro-China, and also we will not pro-US, and also Beijing also respect our ASEAN security policy.
08:21So, in this sense, Beijing is open to this type of cooperation, and it means that they will commit to further, I mean, deepening our defense ties, and also economic ties also.
08:41So, we, I don't foresee that our traditional cooperation, partnership with US will jeopardize our cooperation with Beijing.
08:53I don't see in this sense, yeah.
08:56Dr. We know that diplomacy often happens quietly over, so perhaps over the six months, what are behind the scenes diplomatic tools or outreach could Malaysia use to help keep both Washington and Beijing engaged?
09:11While avoiding the accusation of being biased at the same time?
09:16Okay, for example, like our Prime Minister, Dr. Suri Awang Ibrahim mentioned that even though, I mean, the US, they did not send any high representative to attend our ASEAN meeting.
09:30Our side is committed to meet the US side, and our Prime Minister, he mentioned that even the future meeting can be arranged according to the US, I mean, the available time.
09:45And we are also, I mean, able to go to Washington, to meet them, to meet with their president, and also maybe their high level officials.
09:59So, it means that, yes, we are committed to maintain this partnership with US.
10:03And also, yet, in this sense, we also, in our Kuala Lumpur declaration, and also ASEAN Vision 2045, we committed to preserve our AOIP, ASEAN Open International, and Open Indo-Pacific policy.
10:25And in this kind of policy, which is to suit and also to align with the US and also Japan, their policy, also their foreign visions.
10:37So, in this sense, we are committed to maintain this relationship with the US-led, rules-based world order.
10:49And on the other hand, we also committed to further our cooperation with even Russia, and also with China, and in a multi-spectrum of cooperation.
11:03So, I think we, so far, we have managed to engage big powers, and also super powers, in a very, very balanced way, and also in a kind of healthy way, also.
11:20And, Dr. We keep hearing that ASEAN is only as strong as it is its secretary yet, but it's often criticized as too weak to implement or enforce anything.
11:31Is it time for Malaysia to lead the call for a better-funded or more empowered defense coordination unit inside the secretariat itself?
11:40Yeah, definitely. Actually, I echo with the calling, and definitely, it is time to, I mean, level up the capability, and also the coordination capacity of our ASEAN secretariat.
11:54And, as far as I'm concerned, right now, ASEAN secretariat only staffed with 200 people, and definitely, it's not enough to carry out a lot of programs, and also projects entrusted by ASEAN.
12:14And, yes, but expanding the workforce, definitely, it will consume, and also to have more fun.
12:24And, given the financial constraint by ASEAN, we are all, nearly all of us are not developed countries, and except for Singapore, and also Brunei, and financial, I mean, budget will be the big obstacle for us to expand ASEAN secretariat.
12:41And, second thing, actually, in our ASEAN structure or architecture, we don't, I mean, empower ASEAN secretariat to carry out more, I mean, work or other jobs.
12:58So, if we wanted to expand ASEAN secretariat to, to let them to have more, I mean, capacity to have more work, to carry out programs, then we have to change our current ASEAN structure and also architecture.
13:15And, other than that, we have to chip in more, I mean, financial support to ASEAN secretariat.
13:23But, definitely, it will need all of the members of ASEAN to have a consensus, to, I mean, elevate the ASEAN secretariat capacity.
13:33I don't think it can be done within a short period, but if we have this vision and also this consensus, I think it can be done within a foreseeable near future.
13:47Definitely, if ASEAN secretariat is empowered more, then we will have more cohesion and also our ASEAN members can integrate more and more.
13:58Definitely, I support this idea. And, when it comes to a proper defence coordination, I think there is a little bit difficult to do that because defence coordination is considered as a high politics among all the members.
14:15And, when it comes to a high politics, means that it is quite sensitive. And, we will want, we will want to maintain our sovereignty and also our autonomy in this sense.
14:29So, we, it is more proper for us to take, I mean, a stage, step-by-step ways to elaborate our defence and coordination because we have to have more, I mean, a confidence building and also to reach consensus.
14:52Because, without a consensus, ASEAN cannot move forward. So, this and also this and ASEAN way also. Normally, when we want to reach or to carry out a programme and also one single decision, we will forge a decision and also consensus first.
15:12We will know, we will not force a decision on all the members. We will not do that. This is not an ASEAN way. So, we have to follow our ASEAN way to carry out a proper defence coordination.
15:25Well, that was Dr. Lam Cheong Wah on ASEAN's growing defence dilemma. We still have a lot more to unpack but we will take a short break and we will be right back after this.
15:55Welcome back to ASEAN kita. We are continuing our discussion with Dr. Lam Cheong Wah on ASEAN's growing defence dilemma and how Malaysia as chair can help guide the region through tough, turbulent, geopolitical waters.
16:21Now, Dr. now, to the South China Sea, still one of the biggest sources of tension within the region. What is the most practical and low risk measure that ASEAN could take this year to reduce the chance of accidental conflict?
16:36Are we talking about shared sea lane agreements or perhaps a real-time naval hotline or regular joint patrols, Dr?
16:44All right. When we come to the South China Sea dispute, definitely it is a very, very sensitive issue and also we all member states, I mean, within ASEAN, we have different approaches.
16:57However, there is one binding policy that we adhere to which is South China Sea decalation of conduct which was agreed upon in 2002.
17:14And these documents have already set out the calculations and also what we can do or what we cannot do.
17:24So, however, this document or this decalation is not carried out properly.
17:31And also, not every one of the members, including China, including Philippines, they respect this document and also the declaration fully.
17:45And for example, like Flashpoint, the confrontation between China and also Philippines, it has already attracted a lot of observations and also a lot of attention from not only this region and also all over the world.
18:05So, I can see that in this, I mean, this dispute or this confrontation, China is taking a very, very cautious step not to elaborate or not to, I mean, elaborate the whole thing.
18:25And they just maintain using water cannon and not to use hot weapons.
18:34And if you use hot weapons, then the whole thing will escalate.
18:38So, so far from 2023 until 2025 and no single bullet was fired.
18:47So, I think the whole thing is still in a manageable situation.
18:54So, I think this situation will continue for a while.
18:59But we have to do more to maintain and also to preserve stability within this region.
19:06For example, like our host, you mentioned that she shared sealings and a real-time hotline.
19:12And actually, we already have a real-time hotline among all the members.
19:17And we have a real-time hotline among, together between China and also with ASEAN.
19:24And this already set up within their navies and also their maritime enforcement agencies.
19:31And the problem is we have a big difference when it comes to sovereignty, when it comes to our sovereign claims.
19:40And sometimes we declare that this part belongs to us.
19:44That part belongs to you.
19:45And something like that, we have a big difference in this sense.
19:49And even we have a quarrel among our ASEAN member states also.
19:54So, in this sense, we, ASEAN, we have to find our own consensus first.
20:00Like, previously I mentioned that the Philippines, their policy is to align with the US.
20:09And on the one hand.
20:11And on the other hand, they also committed to maintain ASEAN security and also ASEAN neutrality also.
20:20So, for the Philippines, they have to implement what they are committed to.
20:31And also to come back to ASEAN way to solve our problem.
20:38Not to use, I mean, that kind of maybe a more, a little bit aggressive manner.
20:47So, it means that they always use that kind of more provocative manners to provoke China.
20:56I mean, so in this sense, they have to take more practical steps.
21:00Like, to tone down the confrontation with China.
21:04And other than that, China also, they wanted to approach with the Philippines to talk and also discuss and to manage their dispute.
21:15So, I do welcome them to have a, I mean, a more proper and also more, I mean, a peaceful discussion in this sense.
21:27But when we come to ASEAN ourselves, definitely, we are all committed to conclude the COC.
21:33Could conduct discussion and also negotiation.
21:36We all, I mean, including China, we are all committed.
21:41But the problem is, on a certain terms, we are not having any consensus.
21:46So, I think it will take time to conclude the discussion of COC.
21:54When COC, code of conduct, is concluded, I foresee that this COC will be a binding document.
22:03And it will bind all of the behaviors and also our activities in this, the South China Sea.
22:11That's on South China Sea. And we have also another issue, which is Myanmar, that continues to dominate ASEAN's internal political agenda.
22:20Doctor, do you believe that taking tougher action against the HUNTA would help ASEAN's overall credibility on defense and security?
22:29Or, perhaps, would it divide the bloc even more?
22:32Alright, when it comes to Myanmar issue, when our host, you mentioned that about we should take a tougher action on Myanmar.
22:44But then the question is, what kind of steps we can take?
22:49For example, do we want to take, to sanction them?
22:53Or do you want to, I mean, to interfere their domestic politics?
23:00So, when it comes to the first question, do you want to sanction them?
23:04I think in ASEAN, nearly all, first we are developing countries.
23:11Actually, we don't have many cuts.
23:14I think in this sense, we don't have many cuts to sanction them or to influence them also.
23:21And now, on the second question, when it comes to interference, we all ASEAN members are committed not to interfere individual member states or domestic politics.
23:35So, in this sense, these two questions already rule out the possibility of ASEAN to take a tougher action on Myanmar.
23:48But, we, ASEAN, have our own way to solve this Myanmar issue, which is, we try to bring them to two sides, I mean, from Myanmar Junta and also BDD for also.
24:04to come together, to have a discussion, to have, I mean, to talk to each other.
24:11And currently, the both sides, I mean, those Belgian sides, they, both of them, they did not talk to each other.
24:19So, the first thing, we want them to talk to each other.
24:22And also, for the time being, we, ASEAN, also had already put forward a five-point consensus policy.
24:29So, we call upon both sides to adhere to a five-point consensus.
24:36And this five-point consensus should be the ground and also the basic to reach the peaceful solution and resolution for this crisis.
24:56And definitely, since ASEAN, we are not going to interfere their domestic politics and it is going to take time.
25:06And currently, our Prime Minister, Dr. Seri Ahmed Rahim, he has acted on activity.
25:15And also, he has also appointed, we use our former Thailand Prime Minister and also to help us to discuss and also to approach certain of Myanmar leaders.
25:28So, it's not going to, I mean, to be soft within a days.
25:35And, however, definitely, we are taking steps on the right path.
25:43Dr. As we head towards the next summit, what's one obvious or perhaps tangible sign that we should look for that tells us that ASEAN Defense Corporation is actually working, Dr?
25:56Yeah, definitely.
25:57Yeah, definitely.
25:58We, our ASEAN, maybe defense and also military compilation, we need to enhance it.
26:07And currently, actually, we already conducted several multilateral defense and also military exercises together.
26:16And under the umbrella of an ASEAN political and also security community, we are committed, I mean, to maintain this region in peaceful and also in a stability way.
26:30And, however, like I mentioned a couple of times just now that nearly all of the ASEAN members, they are developing countries.
26:38And our development stage is also different.
26:42So, in this sense, we, if we want to have more military compilation means that we have to chip in more, you know, to upgrade our military capacity.
26:55So, in this sense, it means that we have to expand our defense budget.
27:01Definitely, it will, I mean, have a little bit problem in every individual state.
27:07And, like for example, like in Malaysia, actually, our defense budget is not as big as others.
27:14And nearly, yearly, we just maintain our defense budget at around 17 or 18 billion of ringgit.
27:24And actually, it already accounted for nearly 1% of our GDP.
27:29Definitely, it's not enough.
27:31We have to expand our defense budget to upgrade and also to keep up with the defense and modernization.
27:38But, however, on the other hand, we have to also look into our financial constraints.
27:45And we want to have more guns or we want to have more butter.
27:51And these are the choices we have to make.
27:54And eventually, our country, we have decided to maintain our economy first and also to stimulate our economic growth first.
28:07So, in this sense, we decided not to put in so much financial budget in defense sector.
28:15So, I think this is the same situation faced by other countries, especially against the backdrops of trade war and also the war of uncertainties in economic development.
28:29So, all of us, we will not put in so much resources in defense sector.
28:36And another matter is, currently, we are all not facing a big military or traditional security threat.
28:49So, if we are not facing a big or imminent security threat, means that we will not put more and more resources in our defense sector.
28:59So, definitely, when it comes to have more military compilation among our members, it will take time.
29:08Definitely, it will take time.
29:09Definitely, it will take time.
29:10But, so far, policy-wise, we are taking the right step.
29:18That we will slowly enhance our defense coordination and also multilateral cooperation step by step.
29:28From join military exercises to join defense planning or maybe to have more and more coordination in near future.
29:41Well, we would like to thank Dr. Lam Chung Wah, Senior Lecturer at Universiti Malaya and an expert on regional security and defense strategy for helping us unpack what SECSTEC and ASEAN's involving defense partnership
29:54and the delicate role that Malaysia must play in balancing strength with neutrality.
29:58That's all the time that we have on ASEAN kita today.
30:00I'm Amr Raymond.
30:01Thank you for watching and see you next time.
30:11We'll see you next time.
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