00:00We can now bring in Veronica Welch, Director for Amnesty in Ukraine.
00:04Thank you so much for joining us on the program today.
00:06Your reaction to the statement yesterday from the U.S. President
00:09that this war will effectively need to be ended between Russia and Ukraine themselves?
00:15Thank you so much for having me here.
00:17It's my pleasure.
00:18And, you know, of course, this war should be over,
00:22but I do not think that we can – Putin is the one who started this war.
00:25So how can we be ended just between those two?
00:28I think we definitely need the very strong international community
00:31and strong commitment to end this war together.
00:35Yesterday we had the Russian government that labeled Amnesty an undesirable organization.
00:40The move effectively bans the organization from operating in Russia.
00:44Are you surprised by this move from Moscow?
00:47I'm not surprised, especially, you know, considering that all the last year we were so vocal,
00:52calling about tribunal against Putin and those who are responsible for committing war crimes in Ukraine.
00:56We called, of course, for committing with ICC a warrant that was issued on the top – on the measure of abducting Ukrainian kids.
01:05We've been very vocal on a question of Ukrainian POWs, civilian detainees,
01:10indoctrination of Ukrainian kids, treatment of people on occupied territories.
01:13So we knew that something like this is going to come.
01:16So Amnesty, of course, has been operating in Ukraine.
01:20What are you uncovering about war crimes being committed by Russian soldiers?
01:25Well, there are many things.
01:26And, of course, you know, I think that main thing that distinguish us from any other place is that Ukraine is the kind of country
01:32democratic enough, strong enough that amnesty could be present.
01:37Because when you can practice human rights law and human rights on the ground,
01:41this is what you distinguish from any other authoritarian place.
01:43But, of course, we document everything, you know, and the main focus ours right now,
01:48it would be condition, which we're proving that Russians are committing very systemic torture
01:54and condition of communicado, incommunicado and forceful disappearance of Ukrainian prisoners
02:01and civilians, civilian detainees, they call it, yes.
02:05So Ukrainian soldiers that are detained in Russia.
02:08So incommunicado means they're not allowed to send at all with their families?
02:12At all. We have a crisis where the people at all, and, you know, it's very complicated
02:16because under the Geneva Convention, the only one organization that has a mandate
02:20to access prisoners of war and civilian detainees, it's International Red Cross.
02:25And, of course, if Russia is not allowed them to do so, it creates a very, very complicated situation.
02:30So, and we, you know, from our side, we're also visiting the Russian prisoners of war who are in Ukraine.
02:35We monitor the situation.
02:37We try to, you know, show always the time, like to see if it's really Geneva Convention is
02:41fill out from the Ukrainian side as well because it's equally important, right?
02:44The people who have been treated with a dignity, you know, these rules of the war,
02:48they exist for a reason, Geneva Convention and everything else.
02:51But, of course, Russia does not apply that.
02:54Disrespect it completely, and it's very worrisome.
02:56You know, it applies about, you know, and media professionals and medical doctors and everything else.
03:01So let me talk about what you've been documenting within Ukraine
03:05because you said, of course, that there are, of course, Russian soldiers who were captured by Ukraine as well.
03:10What guarantees are they being given?
03:12Are they allowed to speak to their families or have contact with their families?
03:16Yes, that's the thing.
03:18You know, when we visited them, there was a question about the phone calls even.
03:22You know, it's a very common practice.
03:24Well, it's an interesting part that, of course, you know, Geneva Convention, for example, does not mention phone calls.
03:30Well, for obvious reason.
03:31It was not applicable at the time and was, you know, founded and it was established.
03:36But right now it's possible to do the letter writing.
03:39They can write letters.
03:41They have a job there.
03:42They can play soccer.
03:43They have a, you know, normal condition for the imprisonment.
03:47You know, imprisonment is never perfect.
03:49But, of course, you know, certain conditions should be met and they should be kept in special places altogether,
03:56just prisoners of war, not blended with any other criminals or something.
04:00And Ukraine complies with that condition.
04:02And what about abducted children, Ukrainian children who have been abducted into Russia?
04:08Where are they?
04:09What are the hopes of getting them back?
04:11Well, you know, I think it's one of the most uniting issues, like where international community is trying to help on.
04:16And, you know, Putin and Belova, they are under investigation whereby this arrest warrant was exactly about this issue.
04:23And unfortunately, not enough Ukrainian kids been brought back.
04:26And unfortunately, many of those kids, they became, you know, adult right now, three years into the war.
04:33So, it means that, you know, if you were 15, even from special facility, right now, you are 18 years old with a Russian passport,
04:41usually with a Russian birth certificate, because what they are doing, they issue a new birth certificate for Ukrainian kids, etc.
04:47So, it gets very, very problematic for us.
04:49And, of course, you know, to find the kids, to detect them.
04:52Because it's a herculean task, isn't it, to identify kids with their parents, because they've been forcibly moved.
04:59So, how does an organization like yours actually, you know, work to establish links?
05:06Well, our organization is the one who basically mostly inform about this.
05:10This is kind of issue that Ukrainian government took lead on this.
05:14And, as you know, there's a special people appointed in the office of the president who is taking care of this.
05:19And, you know, for us, the main role is to not make it worse, you know, because also in a human rights world,
05:26if you're too vocal about something and not having enough information, you can harm it the same way.
05:31So, we, you know, try to inform people.
05:33We try to produce, you know, rapport to the extent we could this.
05:36But I would never even comment on the topics that, you know, I'd not have enough information as this one.
05:41Are you confident that one day whoever your organization is accusing of war crimes will face justice?
05:50Are you confident of that?
05:51I am.
05:52You know what?
05:53Because there's a history prove this.
05:55Because we are fighting on the right side of the history.
05:57This is what happens.
05:58And, you know, when we look back, sometimes some stuff that would be impossible to imagine has become real right now.
06:04Even the tribunal that was imposed, maybe it's not perfect, okay?
06:09If we haven't seen statute in my work next year or something, but it happened, you know.
06:14And three years ago, it was just a talk.
06:16It's the first tribunal that's ever been imposed and created during the active war that happened.
06:21It's the first one after the second war.
06:23So, it's going to happen, but it will take time and maybe much longer than we would like to.
06:28But, you know, justice will come because otherwise we would never be able to establish the peace we had before.
06:34Thank you so much for coming in and speaking to us here on the program.
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