Who fights for Hezbollah and why ? Dalal Mawad speaks to FRANCE 24

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00:00Well, joining me in the studio is Dalal Mawad, a seasoned Lebanese journalist.

00:03Great to have you with us, Dalal.

00:05Author of All She Lost, which chronicles the collapse of the Lebanese port explosion,

00:10the Beirut explosion, and the stories of women who lived through it.

00:14And one which I think there are still so many answered questions.

00:17There are, particularly over who's responsible,

00:19whether Hezbollah officials implicated, allegedly blocking the investigation.

00:24Let's start the fact that this is personal to you.

00:26You still have family in Lebanon.

00:28Just tell me about what the last 48 hours have been like for you.

00:33I think it's been devastating watching Lebanon from afar,

00:36just like a lot of expats, Lebanese in France and across the world,

00:41feeling helpless and seeing history repeat itself, unfortunately,

00:46history repeating itself once again with these endless cycles of violence.

00:51And I think many of us, you know,

00:55want this to stop immediately because we know how devastating this is going to be for Lebanon,

01:00who's reeling already under a myriad of crises, including the economic crisis,

01:06has not recovered from the Beirut explosion, which you have mentioned.

01:10And there's a sense of longing, I would say.

01:14A lot of us want to be there despite the circumstances, because being here, as I said,

01:18we feel very helpless.

01:19I still have my family.

01:21My parents are there.

01:22My husband still lives in Lebanon.

01:25And so, you know, we just want this to stop immediately.

01:29And I hope that diplomacy is the way out at this point.

01:34I don't see another way out, unfortunately.

01:37We can see behind you what we're talking, just the scale of people

01:41suddenly on the streets, suddenly homeless because they've been displaced from the south

01:45or simply cannot get anywhere to rent in the city because all the apartments are taking up.

01:49The amount of people suddenly there, the vacuum.

01:52And also, we have a situation with hospitals being full.

01:55I wanted your take on just, you know, you've looked at Hezbollah

01:59and I'm just interested to know, there are a lot of people who support Hezbollah in Lebanon,

02:04mourning the fact that Hassan Nasrallah has died.

02:07Your time looking at Hezbollah, is there a, clearly there are people that won't as well.

02:11And I just wonder what you think about the political vacuum that he's created now

02:16and what remains of Hezbollah with your insight into what could happen next.

02:22A lot of questions.

02:24But I think, you know, Nasrallah was the secretary general of Hezbollah,

02:28was the most powerful man in Lebanon, although he wasn't in public office.

02:33He didn't hold like a position in the state.

02:36I think his assassination is going to be a turning point, not just for Lebanon,

02:41but the whole region and for the so-called axis of resistance with Iran at its helm.

02:47It's clear that Hezbollah has been weakened

02:50in the past week with all these blows and hits and now with Nasrallah killed,

02:55but also seven top commanders of Hezbollah have been also assassinated by Israel.

03:01And the airstrikes are still ongoing.

03:05I think what we have to watch is what Iran's reaction is going to be.

03:11And I personally believe Iran wants to preserve itself and is not going to strike back,

03:17at least cannot go into a full-blown war, a regional war.

03:20But I don't know, to be honest.

03:25The speeches that we've heard or the statements do not indicate an imminent retaliation,

03:30but we don't know Iran has the style of, you know, taking the time to

03:34to retaliate and has used proxies throughout histories to,

03:38to, you know, push back or fight back.

03:42When it comes to Hezbollah, I think, you know,

03:45it's true that Nasrallah is probably the most loved politician,

03:49but also the most hated politician in Lebanon.

03:52I'm worth saying, a politician that if you walk around the south of Beirut,

03:55probably in the south, you see his poster on billboards everywhere.

03:59But he's more than a politician.

04:00You know, he represents, he's a political leader, he's a military commander,

04:04but he's also a religious and cultural icon, if you want.

04:09And for many, he's come to represent, you know, became a symbol of resistance.

04:15He was behind the liberation of the south of Lebanon in 2000.

04:20He's seen by a lot of Lebanese,

04:21but also Arabs as someone who brought back dignity to the Arabs.

04:26At the same time, his legacy is stained by the involvement of Hezbollah

04:30in Syria's civil conflict, fighting with Assad and crushing the opposition.

04:35Also, his legacy is, you know,

04:38he's believed to be behind a series of political assassinations in Lebanon.

04:43You know, also putting together a counterrevolution in 2019

04:46when people went to the streets calling the political establishment,

04:50you know, to leave and calling for reform.

04:52So it's a very complicated relationship that the Lebanese have with Nasrallah.

04:57And there's a sense of, I think, defeat and anger in some way,

05:02which I've seen in the past 24 hours among supporters of Nasrallah and others,

05:07because it's Israel that assassinated him.

05:10So, you know, the attacks on Lebanon have been widely seen as an attack on Lebanon's sovereignty,

05:18not just attacks on Hezbollah, per se.

05:22And he's hard to replace, to be honest.

05:28There's a name put on the table.

05:30I think the party has been organizing itself and preparing for this scenario.

05:36But it's going to be very hard to fill his shoes because he filled so many roles.

05:39I mean, many people compare him to Nasr, who was, you know, the former late Egyptian president.

05:48Who wanted, talked about pan-Arabism.

05:51More specifically, Shiites of internationalism.

05:54Nasrallah came to represent this Shiite axis of resistance with the proxies in Iraq and Yemen

06:01as well.

06:02But Hezbollah was the jewel of Iran.

06:05Let's be honest.

06:06And today, I think the axis of resistance is in a deep crisis after all these hits that it's taken.

06:11So you talk about a possible obvious successor.

06:15We're talking about Hersham Sofieddine.

06:17Exactly, the cousin of Nasrallah.

06:18Cousin of Nasrallah, somebody who is also very connected to Iran.

06:22I believe his son is married to the daughter of Suleimani, who was killed.

06:30He's known to be less pragmatic than Nasrallah.

06:34He looks like him.

06:35He sounds like him.

06:36He looks like him.

06:37Even, you know, ruthless.

06:39They say that, you know, Nasrallah was more pragmatic than him.

06:43There are also a lot of question marks as to how much experience Sofieddine has.

06:50Hezbollah is really weakened today.

06:52And there's been a huge breach, an intelligence breach.

06:56And it's believed that it comes from within the organization.

06:59Before, this is, you know, an Israeli security breach.

07:02There's a need to look inside.

07:05And let's not belittle the economic crisis with this security breach.

07:08I think the economic crisis that started in 2019 played a role,

07:12you know, in turning some people within the community against Hezbollah.

07:16This is a very good point.

07:17It's been mentioned by a number of analysts.

07:18The idea that poor Lebanese in the south,

07:21the attraction of being what many, you know,

07:24those who support Hezbollah would say is a traitor to them.

07:27But actually, the intelligence to Israel and the money paid could be a big factor.

07:30Hezbollah provided a lot of social services.

07:33It was a state within the state.

07:35Which brings me on to go back to 48 hours ago,

07:38this explosion in Dahir.

07:39You were there in the summer.

07:40Let me bring up this article you did.

07:42This is Newsline Magazine.

07:44You talk about Hezbollah fighters' stories.

07:47I think we can see it here.

07:49If we can show it in the gallery.

07:50This is the piece that Dalal did.

07:52Fighters' stories as told by their mothers.

07:55I think the gallery can bring it up.

07:56Here we go.

07:57So this is Newsline.

07:58Basically, you were in Dahir over the summer.

08:01You got permission from Hezbollah to have these conversations.

08:04And a very deeper insight rather than a two-dimensional terrorist story

08:09of who fights for Hezbollah and why.

08:12I think it's important to humanise these fighters,

08:15regardless of where you stand,

08:16you know, if you consider them terrorists or not.

08:19They're human beings at the end.

08:21And I think it was interesting to go back to their early life,

08:26you know, their childhood, their teenage years before they were killed.

08:31And I thought mothers are the most powerful storytellers.

08:35This is what I've witnessed throughout my career as a journalist,

08:39women and mothers specifically.

08:40And it's the angle I took in my book.

08:42But so the mothers were there talking about their children who were killed.

08:47And they call them martyrs.

08:49You know, martyrdom is an intrinsic part of Shia identity and Hezbollah's identity.

08:54And these kids, these boys are indoctrinated very early on.

08:59They join what is known as al-Mahdi scouts, Hezbollah's scouts.

09:03And they go on.

09:04You're talking this is like three years old.

09:06As early as three, exactly.

09:07And the indoctrination starts there.

09:10There's religious, there's a lot of religious teachings.

09:13So this is what I've noticed is that the religion doctrine is very, very strong.

09:19And it's stronger than the political identity.

09:22And it's actually what pushes these people to fight.

09:25Because in Shiaism, in their history,

09:28there were two imams, Imam Ali and Imam Hussein,

09:31who were assassinated and considered as martyrs.

09:34And they've come to represent for this community,

09:36the ultimate sacrifice for social justice.

09:40And so these people really believe that it's a religious duty

09:44to be killed for a greater cause.

09:46In this case, you know, fighting against Israel.

09:49And a lot of these mothers, you know, despite their pain,

09:52they're very convinced.

09:54And the doctrine is in the family.

09:57I mean, to a lesser extent.

09:58But some of these children end up in military training

10:01and end up enrolling with Hezbollah as early as 13 and 14.

10:05And they go fighting as teenagers, as underage kids.

10:11And it's just, you know, the majority of the Shia community

10:17believes in these ideals and, you know, in their duty to serve and to fight.

10:25And there's something very interesting that a mom told me,

10:27that it's not martyrdom that's the objective.

10:30It's the victory.

10:31Victory against Israel or whatever cause, you know, they're fighting for.

10:36And yeah, it's very religious for them.

10:38They see their martyrs almost as saints who did something good.

10:44Briefly, because I think actually where you lead us next

10:46gives us an idea of where this can go

10:48in terms of dismantling an organization and to what extent.

10:52You talked about the social fabric.

10:54I think part of your piece, you talked about, you know, widows, mothers,

10:58those that have lost those fighting for Hezbollah,

11:00get a financial package each month.

11:02And that tells you about the fabric of society

11:04in a very poor country right now

11:06and how important this militia politically and militarily is.

11:10Yeah, I mean, Hezbollah, but also other political parties

11:12in Lebanon have weakened the state

11:14and they come in and they fill the shoes of the state.

11:16And Hezbollah is no exception.

11:21It's a state within a state and a community on its own.

11:24It provides the fighters a salary, but also once they are killed,

11:28their families have an income for their lifetime income

11:32and they're provided free medical and educational services as well.

11:37They go to school for free.

11:38They are in hospitals getting treated for free

11:42and they feel like the party is taking care of them.

11:45Of course, the question is if that income stops one day.

11:49And we've seen this with the financial crisis

11:52that I think the means were with the sanctions on Iran as well.

11:57Hezbollah didn't have the means it had

11:59and had to create this criminal network around the world

12:02to finance its activities.

12:04If one day not just Hezbollah is weakened militarily,

12:08that financially also if it cannot fulfill this role,

12:13would it push people to support the party less or not?

12:19But again, there is a very, very strong doctrine

12:21and it's very religious as well.

12:24Dalal, great to have you in the studio.

12:25Great to talk to you.

12:25Dalal Marwad, an author of All She Lost,

12:28Lebanese journalist based here in Paris.

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