- 2 years ago
Alexandre Mendy transfer latest plus Spain tour reflections under Régis Le Bris
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00:00Hello and welcome to the RAW podcast brought to you by the Sunderland Echo.
00:28My name's Joe Nicholson and I'm joined by my fellow Sunderland writers at the Echo,
00:33Phil Smith and James Copley.
00:36How are we both this morning?
00:37Phil, you've recently been back from Spain.
00:39Yeah, it's good.
00:40I have to be honest, it's nice to be back in 10 degrees and drizzle, actually.
00:47The sun was nice for a few days, but yeah, quite hard work to be fair, fair play to anybody
00:53who played football in the 40 degrees heat because that was not easy.
00:56So quite happy to be back and cool, actually, to be fair.
00:59I was a little jealous of Phil until he arrived in Spain and the sheer quantity of his work
01:04put me off because I don't think you did much sunbathing, Phil.
01:09I didn't.
01:10My swim shorts never made it out of my suitcase, unfortunately, but it was good, yeah, it was
01:15good and really nice that so many people read our stuff and got involved on the whistle
01:20and stuff.
01:21It was great.
01:22So yeah, yeah.
01:23We're happy to be home, I have to say.
01:24How was your time at Leiden, Phil?
01:27Yeah, it was a challenging trip, it was a challenging trip, but we got home in one piece
01:32and that's the main thing.
01:33Stick to the football, shall we, Phil?
01:34Yeah, yeah.
01:35I think that would be best, yeah.
01:36Yeah, there's plenty to talk about as well.
01:37Obviously, Sunderland played two games over in Spain, two friendly matches.
01:38They drew one-all with Nottingham Forest on what, shall we say, was probably a stronger
01:39starting XI and then a different side beat Spanish 2-0.
01:40So, yeah, it was a challenging trip, but we got home in one piece and that's the main
01:41thing.
01:42Stick to the football, shall we, Phil?
01:43Yeah, yeah.
01:44I think that would be best, yeah.
01:45Yeah, there's plenty to talk about as well.
01:46Obviously, Sunderland played two games over in Spain, two friendly matches.
01:47They drew one-all with Nottingham Forest on what, shall we say, was probably a stronger
01:51starting XI and then a different side beat Spanish 2-1 with Tom Watson and Hamier scoring
01:59the goal.
02:00So, we'll start with you, Phil.
02:01And last summer, Sunderland went away to America.
02:04The trip seemed quite hectic at times.
02:06Tony Mowbray suggested that maybe they didn't face the right quality of opposition in terms
02:12of the kind of level of what the sides were playing at.
02:15So, do you think from this trip in Spain that the team and the squad got what they
02:19were looking for in terms of minutes, in terms of the quality of the opposition?
02:24Yeah, it's a little bit difficult to compare it to last summer because, obviously, we weren't
02:28out in America.
02:29So, you don't really have that sort of first-hand experience.
02:31But what I would say is, like, I think even just from watching the games on a stream last
02:35year and being there for the games this year, it was a much, much bigger challenge both
02:41physically and technically, I would say.
02:42If you remember back to those games in America, I mean, Sunderland were just completely dominating
02:46the ball, weren't they, really?
02:47And it was kind of, I would go as far as to say, probably a bit more like a training exercise,
02:52really.
02:53Whereas these two games were really, really challenging for different reasons.
02:57Obviously, Forrest, a lot of technical quality dominated the ball.
03:01Sunderland had to work really hard off the ball.
03:04And especially in that heat, it shouldn't be underestimated either.
03:07They were basically chasing Premier League players around for 90 minutes.
03:11And then the Al Dents game was actually, I don't know what it came across like on a stream
03:15or whatever, but it was quite a decent watch in the ground because Al Dents, like, obviously
03:21really acclimatised the conditions, really acclimatised the heat, and they had some decent
03:25technical quality.
03:26But that pressing was, like, really, really intense all the way through the game.
03:29And that was a really good exercise, especially for a sort of heavily rotated team that isn't
03:33used to playing together.
03:34You know, so there wasn't a huge amount of time on the ball, and it was a good challenge,
03:38I think.
03:39My feeling is definitely they probably got more out of this trip than they did last year.
03:43I think the quality of the opponent was much, much more appropriate, if you like.
03:48And then they've obviously got now that build at the start of the season with Blackpool,
03:52Bradford, and then a really tough game they finished against Marseille.
03:54So it does maybe feel like a few lessons have been learned from that.
03:58And certainly, I do think there was two really good games, both physically and in terms of
04:03the quality of the opponent, yeah.
04:06What do you think we found out about the way that Reggie LaBrie wants to play and his
04:10kind of style of football?
04:12Can we read much into these two games?
04:14Well, yeah, we can definitely.
04:17But there were two quite different approaches, I would have said, actually, in both games.
04:22And we kind of saw the two different aspects of his philosophy.
04:26There wasn't a huge amount of hard pressing against Nottingham Forest, although the goal
04:29obviously came from the end, they're doing really well to steal the ball back off their
04:31centre half.
04:32But that game, Sunderland kind of sat off a little bit, which I guess makes sense because
04:36you don't want to leave space for like Gibbs, Wyatt and players like that.
04:39But what was really noticeable in that game is they were trying to play out from the back
04:43pretty much the whole game where they could.
04:45And they actually did it fairly successfully.
04:47Al Dentz was really different in that they pressed incredibly aggressively.
04:51So actually, when Al Dentz went to take a goal kick, you had Arshish basically playing
04:55as a second striker.
04:56It looked like a really flat 4-4-2.
04:58And then you had all four midfielders, including Hamilton and Brown.
05:00There was no sitting midfielder.
05:01All four of them were pushed up right on the edge of the box, marking man for man.
05:06Incredibly risky, but obviously high reward.
05:08And speaking to both the players and Labriez after that game, they were sort of saying
05:12that's definitely a clue of what we want to try and do.
05:15Try and put those bits together, playing out from the back, pressing really aggressively.
05:19But also making the point that in pre-season, you can be a bit braver because if it goes
05:22wrong, it doesn't matter.
05:23So they were kind of saying you might not see it to this extreme during the season because
05:27we might have to adjust a little bit and be a bit more cautious.
05:30But definitely, those are the key indications.
05:32And I think the one thing that's really clear is, you may tweet it as we go along, but Labriez
05:36spoke in his first press conference to me, he told me about a 4-3-3 in possession, a
05:404-4-2 out of possession.
05:41Well, that was incredibly clear from day one, and that's continued through these games.
05:46So it does feel like there's a real template for the start of the season, which may adjust
05:50as we go.
05:51But I think we can definitely see Labriez's footprint, if you like, all over this team
05:57It was interesting, James, as I said before, that the team that started against Forest,
06:02you probably, possibly wouldn't be surprised if that was the team that started against
06:06Cardiff on the opening day of the season.
06:08We know that Dan Ballard's going to miss the start of the season with an injury, but the
06:12side that started against Forest was Paterson, Hulme, O'Neill, Alise, Surkin, Neal, Rigg,
06:17Roberts, Bellingham, Clark and Maienda.
06:20Now obviously, Brown played in the second game and is playing a little bit of catch-up
06:24because he only came a couple of weeks ago and maybe hasn't had as much time on the training
06:29pitch as the others have.
06:30But looking at that side that started against Forest, would you say that that is possibly
06:34Sunderland's strongest start in XI as things stand?
06:37And would there be any kind of changes maybe you'd make to that?
06:40I think so.
06:41It obviously depends on the transfer market as well.
06:43I think Maienda's looked relatively impressive.
06:46I would say that he's slightly ahead of Roosan in the way he's performed so far, although
06:50I have enjoyed Roosan as well.
06:53He should have maybe had a couple of goals, Roosan, in the two games.
06:57But obviously, Alexander Mendy possibly coming in, depending on when he comes, if he comes
07:02or if somebody else comes with him, you could see them start up front.
07:06I think the Rigg, Alan Brown one's really interesting because I think Chris Rigg's been
07:11hugely impressive during pre-season already.
07:13I think his intensity's been right up there with some of Sunderland's best performers.
07:19He's really got the bit between his teeth.
07:20Obviously, Alan Brown's a little bit behind the rest of the group since joining from Preston
07:25North End this summer.
07:26So I think when it comes to the opening day of the season, it'll be interesting whether
07:31Labriece wants that experience in the midfield and he opts for Brown over Rigg or whether
07:36he goes on a meritocracy and Rigg gets the nod.
07:40And obviously, so much depends on what happens in these upcoming three pre-season games domestically
07:46as well against Bradford, Blackpool and Marseille.
07:49He could pick up injuries, but I would say that that start 11 that start against Nottingham
07:53Forest is probably the strongest team that we've seen and I think they're the best performing
07:59players certainly as things stand, but obviously that can change a little bit, little way to
08:04go in the summer.
08:05But I think that the Rigg, Alan Brown question's really interesting and I'm intrigued to see
08:10how that develops because Rigg has done absolutely nothing wrong and has been very, very, very
08:16good this pre-season.
08:18I'd say the two probably main question marks about who could start is probably the Rigg,
08:22Alan Brown one, as you said, and then the upfront, Meyendah or could he go with Roos
08:26and could he even go with Amir after that goal the other night, which was an excellent
08:30goal if people haven't seen it.
08:33But would you agree with that, Phil?
08:34Do you think that's probably on paper at the minute Sunderland's strongest starting 11
08:38going into a couple of weeks out from the season?
08:43Pretty much, yeah.
08:44I think as James sort of alluded to there, a lot of that shouldn't necessarily be taken
08:48as a reflection of the individual player's ability.
08:50A lot of it's due to where they are with their fitness, isn't it?
08:53I think it's obvious that a Dan Neal, for example, at the moment will look a bit sharper
08:57than an Elliot Embleton, who's basically been injured for 18 months and has played three
09:02games of football now and yet to play 90 minutes.
09:04So I think it's fairly obvious that these guys are going to need a little bit of a longer
09:08run at it.
09:09At a certain point, I expect a couple of those players in that category to go out on loan.
09:13I think it's just obvious that if they're not going to play regularly here, they need
09:16to go and do it somewhere else.
09:18So we'll kind of see how that develops.
09:19But yeah, I think the core of that team is pretty much in place.
09:23I think that's fair.
09:24And also, I think one of the things we've noticed from talking to people around the
09:27club pretty much since the end of last season is that on the playing side, there's definitely
09:32a desire, I think, for some continuity this season.
09:36I think they feel, although it sounds strange when the team finished 16th last year, I think
09:40they feel like the core of the team is a really strong one and they don't want to do too much
09:44to it.
09:45They want to add a little bit of quality rather than a significant turnover.
09:48And I think that's a reflection of that, that, yeah, we can probably feel like we can name
09:52eight or nine of those players who are going to start the season as we sit here right now.
09:57Obviously, things can change quickly with injuries and what have you.
10:00I think that's probably for me, I know you've spoken about that, and there's probably three
10:03positions, I think.
10:04Although I think Elisa is very likely to start alongside 09.
10:08I think Yelda and Joanne Lisson both did really well on the tour and I think that should
10:13be remarked upon.
10:14I'm not necessarily saying they'll start, but I think they've given themselves a chance
10:17to keep pushing because both looked really good.
10:20As you mentioned, that midfield position is definitely up for grabs.
10:23Alan Brown's a bit behind on his fitness, but he looked brilliant at the start of the
10:26Al Dente game, physical, winning his duels.
10:29I think what was really noticeable about him as well was how comfortable he was coming
10:32and taking the ball off the defenders, even though Al Dente were playing with a high press
10:36and it was quite a high-pressure sort of scenario.
10:39He handled the ball really, really well.
10:41Tired of it, as you would expect, because he hasn't played for ages and it was like
10:4440 degrees heat.
10:45But I thought he looked really impressive, so although at the moment I would put Rigg
10:48in there, given how well he's doing, I do think Brown might have something to say about
10:52that.
10:53Also, he wore the captain's armband on his debut, which I think also is quite revealing
10:56as well.
10:57Obviously, the upfront one is the real conundrum.
10:58Will Sunderland sign someone before the start of the season?
11:00We hope so.
11:02Meende, I was impressed with against Nottingham Forest, but didn't really have many chances.
11:08Roosen did OK at times, thought he did well when he came on against Forest, didn't look
11:14so great against Al Dente until he moved out left.
11:17And then obviously, Hemiya, I mean, what an enigma, really.
11:22An interesting goal, because in some ways not a huge surprise, because the one thing
11:26we've known about Hemiya since day one is that he can finish.
11:29He did it in pre-season last year, albeit not as spectacular as that.
11:33And you speak to anyone at the club, staff, players, whatever, he does that in training.
11:38His finishing is really good, it's just that the rest of his game isn't quite there yet
11:41to create the environment where he can have those chances and make those chances for himself.
11:45So I'll be honest, I don't really have the answer for that one as to how they crack it.
11:50At the moment, I still feel like it's very unlikely that he starts the championship season
11:54up front, but who knows, maybe that goal can be a catalyst for him.
11:57I guess we'll see.
11:59Yeah, my thoughts with Hemiya coming into this summer was probably that he would be
12:03the one going out on loan.
12:04I think we were all quite surprised in January when it was when it was Meyenda that went
12:08out on loan rather than Hemiya.
12:10I think Meyenda certainly last season showed a little bit more than Hemiya when he came
12:14in, looked like he could maybe make more of an impact.
12:16I think Tony Mowbray rated him quite highly in Meyenda as well, whereas Hemiya, I think
12:21he struggled to make an impact at championship level.
12:23So I thought he'd be the one that went out on loan in January, but it was Meyenda.
12:28And now obviously they've got the kind of same dilemma with both of them, two young
12:30strikers that they've invested money in.
12:33But are they ready to start games in the championship, especially if Sunderland are bringing someone
12:39in?
12:40But looking at that squad, James, and one thing that was quite clear as well last weekend
12:46as well when they split the squad between South Shields and Gateshead is that there
12:49are quite a lot of players in the squad, but we've had a comment as well on Facebook saying
12:53there's not enough depth in the squad.
12:56But Phil kind of hinted there that we've got a lot of players at Sunderland that are under
13:00long-term contracts, that maybe there won't be as many signings as maybe what people expect.
13:04So where do you think are the main areas still that Sunderland do need strength?
13:08Obviously there's the striker dilemma at the minute that Sunderland are looking to bring
13:12someone in up front, but where are the kind of other areas that you think maybe that they
13:16lacked depth and where the squad does need addressing this summer?
13:20I think, yeah, the striker one's an obvious one.
13:22Hopefully that's sort of resolved in the coming weeks.
13:28It's interesting with Alan Brown, isn't it?
13:30Phil was mentioning that he played really deep in the second game and he was happy to
13:35come and get the ball off the defence, and that's very true.
13:37And I found that very interesting because from what we've heard from him in his interview
13:41with Phil, he'll play anywhere, he'll play all over, but traditionally during his career
13:46he's been sort of box-to-box, perhaps a little bit more attacking.
13:50So I find it interesting as he enters this sort of, you know, the last maybe six, seven
13:55years of his career, is he coming to Sunderland to play that number six role?
13:59If he is, then you would suggest that that number six position is boxed off.
14:04We've talked about on this podcast quite a lot, and Phil's pointed out that Sunderland
14:07don't really play with a number six, but if Brown is going to play further forward eventually,
14:12if he is going to be more box-to-box, then is it worth having a Corey Evans type player?
14:17If Alan Brown's going to be that man or cover that position, then perhaps, you know, you
14:22don't need a recruit there.
14:23So I do find that interesting, and I think really it depends on outgoings as well.
14:28Phil mentioned there there's a fair few players that could go out on loan.
14:32Joe Anderson's impressed, but does his future lie at Sunderland?
14:35If he went, do you need a little bit more cover and defence?
14:38Because obviously he can cover left-back and centre-back.
14:41You know, on the wings as well, if Jack Clarke was to go, do you replace him directly or
14:46do you put your faith in Romain Mundell, Jefferson Bennett or Tommy Watson?
14:50Or would one of those players go out on loan as well?
14:53It's really tough.
14:54And then you look at the midfield.
14:56You know, I'm a massive Elliot Embleton fan, and it's worth noting that he is just coming back
15:01from two serious injuries.
15:02Hasn't played 90 minutes.
15:03He's only on his third game back.
15:05But if he was to go out on loan alongside Jamie Tetty, you'd likely need some cover there as well.
15:10So, so much depends on who leaves.
15:13But what I will say about some of the players that I've mentioned, there is mitigation.
15:17I think, you know, Elliot Embleton, as I mentioned, being out for so long, Jamie Tetty's had his injury issues.
15:22Jefferson Bennett played left-back against Al Dente.
15:25He's coming back from an injury as well.
15:28So, whilst I think we've seen a very strong Sunderland XI and then a slightly weaker Sunderland XI,
15:34there is mitigation for that.
15:36A lot of those players are getting back up to speed, playing in unfamiliar positions,
15:40in a sort of unfamiliar team as well.
15:43You know, that sort of second-string team hasn't played together a lot.
15:46So, I think it will be interesting going forward.
15:49But, yeah, it doesn't feel like a summer of sort of wholesale change.
15:54You know, coming up from League One a couple of seasons ago, it was very busy, wasn't it?
15:59And even last summer as well felt quite busy.
16:02Obviously, there's still a long way to go in this transfer window,
16:05but it doesn't feel like Sunderland are going to be, you know, hugely active
16:09and there's going to be a massive turnover of players.
16:11And that could benefit the squad, actually, a little bit of continuity.
16:15But, yeah, all eyes on the outgoings, I think, at the moment.
16:18Yeah, I think they'll definitely be both in and outgoings this summer, as there often is.
16:23As you mentioned there, Clarke's the big one, isn't it?
16:24If Clarke does go, then that leaves a huge void there from last season,
16:29where he scored 15 goals and at the end of the season wasn't even at his best
16:32because he'd come back from that ankle injury.
16:34So, if he left, and I don't even think it's a case,
16:37it may not even be a case of bringing in one player to replace Jack Clarke,
16:39because that's so much pressure on someone coming in.
16:42It may be a case of bringing in two or three players
16:44that are going to kind of chip in with those goals.
16:47That's definitely one to watch out for.
16:49We'll come on to transfers now, because we had another comment on Facebook saying,
16:53what's the latest on Alexander Mendy?
16:55We'll come to you on this one, Phil.
16:57The reports coming from France on Friday suggested that
17:01he had chose Sunderland as the club that he wanted to join,
17:05but your understanding was that it wasn't as clear-cut as that.
17:08So, what is the latest on him that you understand?
17:15Yeah, I mean, I've not heard of any changes to the situation from Friday night,
17:19to be completely honest with you.
17:22So, just to go kind of back to that a little bit,
17:24obviously, the report from France, which I'm sure is accurate,
17:29is that Mendy from Kent wants to join Sunderland,
17:33as opposed to some of the other options that he's maybe potentially had on the table
17:36or the other clubs that are interested in.
17:38That's obviously very significant, because it means that Sunderland want to sign him
17:41and they're going to get a great fee, then you'd think it would go over the line.
17:44All I can say is that when I asked the question to people who would kind of know what Sunderland did,
17:50the feedback was very much that he was still one of a number of options
17:53and that they hadn't decided what the right deal was for them this summer.
17:57I think it's pretty obvious that whoever the striker deal is,
18:00whether it's Mendy or whether it's anybody else from another club,
18:03financially, it's going to be a significant one.
18:05And I get the impression that what you don't want to do is,
18:08you don't want to sort of rush into making the wrong decision.
18:11So, I get the impression that at the moment, they're just still weighing up their options.
18:15I think it's obvious, isn't it, that there's a gap in valuation between Sunderland and Kent.
18:19I think their manager is on the record, actually, in terms of talking about the fact that as of yet,
18:23you know, there certainly hasn't been a bid for Mendy that they're happy with.
18:27So, I can't say at the moment that I've had any updates on the situation since Friday, really.
18:34I reported then that, you know, although there's definitely interest in it,
18:36a deal that could potentially happen, it's certainly not something that was imminent.
18:40And, you know, we're three years on from that now and nothing's happened.
18:43So, I think it's just one to watch at the moment, to be honest.
18:46I think there's a lot to play out more generally.
18:49And I think it's fair to say that there's a number of strikers that Sunderland are looking at.
18:52And what they have to decide is which one makes the most sense for them,
18:55both financially and on the footballing one.
18:57That may well be Mendy.
18:58He may well come inside.
19:00And at some point, he obviously had an excellent season last year,
19:03which is very attractive to Sunderland because, you know, they don't just need a striker.
19:07They need a striker who scores goals.
19:08So, definitely one to watch.
19:10May well happen.
19:12But I get the impression that there's, A, quite a bit of work to do on that deal.
19:16And, you know, B, he's not necessarily the only player on Sunderland's radar at this stage.
19:23It is a huge deal that they've got to get right, James.
19:26Obviously, we say that about a lot of deals.
19:28But this is the striker that's going to come in and probably be Sunderland's first-choice
19:32striker.
19:32And we saw last year, they invested money in some younger strikers that
19:35didn't look up to it last season.
19:37There's still a lot of time for them to grow into the players that Sunderland want them to be.
19:41And Mayenda and Hamier.
19:42Roosin obviously had his challenges as well, coming over from Ukraine.
19:46And hopefully, he's better settled this year to have a good season.
19:48But it looks like the striker that Sunderland are going to pay money,
19:51and whether it's Mendy or whether it's someone else,
19:53he's going to be their first-choice striker.
19:55And he's going to have to deliver with goals, especially if Jack Clarke leaves as well.
19:58He's going to have a very big role in the team.
20:00So it is important that Sunderland get this one right,
20:03whether that means taking their time.
20:05Obviously, ideally, it would be great to get this player in now,
20:07whether that's Mendy or someone else.
20:08But Sunderland do need to get this one right, don't they?
20:11No, they really do.
20:12And I don't mind them taking the time over a deal to get it right.
20:17But I think now is the time where it really, really does have to come off.
20:21And they do have to sign that experienced goalscoring striker.
20:24Obviously, there's no guarantees in terms of goals.
20:27As I say, I don't mind them taking the time this summer.
20:30But that's sort of caveated with this striker issue has been ongoing for some time.
20:35Sunderland fans have been aware for some time,
20:38going even back to the Ross Stewart days and the Sims days
20:41before Sims left and before Stewart got injured.
20:44Sunderland were crying out for some reinforcements up front.
20:47So it's been a long-term issue now that really does need resolve.
20:50And as you say, the sort of form of my end has been really promising.
20:54But would you be comfortable going into the season
20:57against Cardiff City with him as your striker, first-choice striker?
21:02Probably not.
21:03So you would like to see it done before that opening day, wouldn't you, really?
21:07But as Phil mentioned, there might be other targets that we haven't heard about yet.
21:12So it's ever-evolving, ever-moving, ever-changing.
21:16And I long for the day where we don't have to talk about strikers at Sunderland.
21:20It would be nice just to have one that comes in and scores.
21:22But I think it's positive that the club have actually noted
21:26and are actively trying to sort that experienced goal-scoring striker issue out.
21:31I know they tried in January and they couldn't get it over the line.
21:34And they have done historically.
21:37I think this question of money is really interesting.
21:39Obviously, I do not want Sunderland to be ripped off in the market
21:43and pay over the odds for players.
21:44I think Sunderland's ownership, Sunderland's decision-makers
21:47have a responsibility to get the best deal for the club,
21:51the best deal for the fans who put their money in.
21:54But there does come a time when you do have to maybe pay a little bit more
22:00to get your preferred target.
22:01I'm not saying Sunderland haven't spent money
22:03because they quite clearly have on some good players over the years.
22:07But in terms of that striker,
22:09they've perhaps been a little bit reluctant to overextend themselves.
22:12But at some point, they might just have to twist the parameters a little bit
22:17to get that one over the line.
22:19And it'll be interesting to see whether they're prepared to do that this window,
22:22whether they're prepared to do that for Mendy
22:24or whether they're prepared to do that for somebody else.
22:26And Mendy goes by the wayside.
22:28It's really interesting.
22:30I think as well, it's having the right kind of attack around Mendy.
22:34It's not just a case of bringing in a striker for X amount of money
22:39and assuming that he's going to score the goal.
22:41You've got to have the players that are going to create the chances.
22:42And especially if Jack Clarke leaves as well,
22:45you've got to replace him in some way, as I said before,
22:47whether that's with one player
22:48or whether that's with two or three players
22:50to have that balance in the squad,
22:51to create the chances for the striker and get the best out of them.
22:55Just another comment coming in.
22:57Is there any truth in about the Jebison coming in?
23:01That's Daniel Jebison, who is now at Bournemouth, was at Sheffield United.
23:04He was a target for Sunderland a couple of transfer windows ago
23:08when they were in League One.
23:09That deal didn't happen and he's now gone there.
23:12So perhaps a loan deal to Sunderland could be possible.
23:15But it's tricky, as we've said before, isn't it?
23:17With loans, you're often waiting for a Premier League club
23:22or a top flight club to assess their squad over the summer in pre-season.
23:27And then it'll be later in the window that they let players go out on loan.
23:31So do you think Sunderland are trying to kind of strike early
23:34by signing someone on a permanent deal
23:36and not kind of leaving its chance with that loan market?
23:40I think there's an element of that.
23:41I think it's more cases that they'd just rather sign their own players full stop.
23:45I think that one of them is, depend on the loan market is,
23:50sorry, I can't find the right words, as little as possible.
23:53I think they'd always, always try and sign their own player first.
23:56And I think you'll see that the summer that they would rather sign
23:59their own player and then bring somebody else in,
24:02especially when you've already got some young strikers on the books
24:04who you want to develop.
24:06You know, Sunderland still want to develop Mayenda.
24:08I know Reece is 25, but obviously you're just into a new division.
24:11And Humea to an extent as well.
24:13I think the recognition is that they just need a little bit of someone
24:16who can take a little bit of that pressure away from them
24:18so they can be bedded in a bit more gradually
24:20and with a bit less pressure than last season, maybe.
24:23So my feeling is, is that their priority or their preference
24:26is to sign their own player and are willing, in this case,
24:29to someone who's a little bit more experienced
24:31and maybe slightly different to the general kind of parameters
24:34we've seen before.
24:35Having said that, they're also trying to win promotion this season.
24:38And so if they get the opportunity to recruit,
24:41you know, a really, really dynamic striker from the Premier League.
24:44And Jevison, I mean, he's a fairly experienced player now as well.
24:47That's the thing about Jevison.
24:48Obviously, he wasn't two years ago or three years ago.
24:50Sorry, that's something we're first interested.
24:53But he's played quite a bit of football at a high level now.
24:55So if Jevison is available on loan,
24:57do I expect Sunderland to be entering that conversation?
25:00I absolutely do.
25:01I don't think it's anything kind of more than that at the moment.
25:03But yeah, I think their preference, if they can do it,
25:06would be to sign their own player first.
25:09But it's definitely not what I would sort of rubbish,
25:11if that makes sense, because I think it's just very obvious
25:14that talented strikers who have a little bit of experience
25:18are going to be in high demand this summer,
25:19not just at Sunderland, but across the championship.
25:22I think with Jevison as well,
25:24just looking at him and looking at his playing style
25:27and his background as well,
25:28I do actually think he'd be a really good fit for Sunderland.
25:30Obviously, there'll be other interested parties as well.
25:33And he has to go where's right for him.
25:34But I think at Sunderland, he would likely play.
25:37And he hasn't at Sheffield United,
25:39not in the Premier League, obviously.
25:40He had a pretty bad medical issue slash injury.
25:44I can't remember exactly what it was,
25:45but it kept him out for a long time.
25:46So he hasn't really played much football,
25:48despite being quite experienced.
25:51And what we know is that Sunderland
25:52do have historic interest and do track players over time.
25:56We've seen that.
25:57So I think he's one that really interests me
26:00just from a sort of fans perspective.
26:02And I do actually think in terms of getting his career
26:04back on track, the chance to score goals
26:06in front of a big crowd, play games in a good environment
26:09that prioritises youth.
26:10We've seen the likes of Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts
26:13get their careers back on track, really.
26:15Not that I'm saying it's been completely derailed
26:18by any means, Jefferson's career,
26:19because he's just won a move to Premier League Bournemouth.
26:22But in terms of playing and getting himself out there
26:25and getting a feel of the grass,
26:26I think Sunderland would be a really good option for him.
26:28Obviously, caveat to that is loads of other clubs
26:31will be interested because he's quality.
26:33And they'll be able to provide their own
26:35attractive packages to him as well in terms of minutes.
26:37So, yeah, really interesting.
26:39But I'd like to see him come in, actually, Daniel Jefferson.
26:43I think the thing is with him as well,
26:44he's got experience of English football.
26:46I think the gamble is with bringing in someone like Mendy
26:49is you're bringing in a player that has played
26:51his whole career in France.
26:52Yes, he scored a lot of goals in the second tier there,
26:55but almost similar to like Roosin and Mienda
26:58and Hamir coming in last season.
27:00They've got no experience of English football
27:02and that may not be an issue.
27:04It may be, but it does kind of bring a little element of doubt.
27:08We saw in January that Sunderland were trying to bring in Kiefer Moore
27:11and it's very difficult to bring in a striker
27:13that is a proven goal scorer at championship level
27:16because then other clubs are trying to compete with them as well.
27:19And Ipswich went for him and got him
27:20and he helped them win promotion.
27:21But it is difficult to find a striker like that,
27:25that is proven and then matches the way structure
27:27and everything kind of comes in line.
27:29So then maybe you do have to gamble and go broad
27:32and that is the kind of the risk that you have there.
27:34But just on injuries, Phil, I just wanted to come on to this.
27:38There's also been chance for reports about Pierre Equa,
27:42about Eudonese being injured, being interested in him.
27:48He didn't start either of the games in Spain.
27:51So what's the kind of latest on him and latest on injuries as well?
27:54There was no...
27:55Abdoula Bar didn't start either of the games
27:56or Nectar Trantis either.
27:58So what's kind of the latest in terms of the fitness
28:00and the players that missed out on those two games?
28:04Yeah, I don't have an exact time frame for any of them
28:07other than to say that when I asked Lebris about it
28:09after the Ardennes game, he said that in all three cases,
28:11he was quite confident there was no serious issue.
28:14So I'll start with Bar.
28:15Bar trained all week, just not fully with the team.
28:18So he was doing all the sort of warm-up stuff.
28:20And then when the team were going into their own sessions,
28:23he was doing his own individual work,
28:24but he was running, he was running with the ball.
28:26He was doing quite a lot of, I would say, high intensity stuff.
28:29So I would expect him to join full training this week.
28:32And if you don't see him on Saturday at Blackpool,
28:34I certainly think the Bradford or the Marseille games
28:36will see him in some capacity.
28:38I think it's obvious he's going to be behind the other players.
28:41So I think it's going to be difficult for him to fight his way
28:43into the team for the first day of the season,
28:44but he's definitely not far off.
28:46Trantis was doing less work in Spain than Bar was,
28:50but he was there and he was doing his own fitness stuff.
28:52So he's not a million miles away, albeit,
28:54I think he's a bit behind Bar.
28:56Ecuador.
28:57Yeah, it was just a bit of a strange one.
28:58Obviously, he didn't start the Nottingham Forest game.
29:01He came on after an hour for Rigby,
29:02which was a pre-planned sub.
29:04And then I think he'd be on the pitch about three minutes
29:06when he went in for a challenge.
29:07And the game actually stopped him
29:09to get some treatment on his back.
29:11He played on and did actually quite well,
29:14to be honest, played nicely,
29:16but didn't train the next day,
29:17reported that his back was,
29:18you know, his experience and discomfort.
29:21He would have started on Sunday night,
29:23but I think the view was that it was just
29:24made no sense to take a risk with it.
29:26But certainly, Lebris, you know,
29:29it was pretty clear that he expected to see him
29:31playing this weekend, or if not this weekend,
29:32then pretty soon after.
29:33So I don't think anything major to worry about that one.
29:36And, you know, as we spoke about
29:38on the podcast with James last week,
29:40really transfer wise, it's one of those whereby
29:43I think, you know,
29:45there's definitely been conversations
29:46that definitely is genuine interest.
29:48But at the moment, the sort of opening bid
29:50or the opening proposal was just nothing
29:52that would make someone consider selling.
29:55You know, I think it's obvious at the moment
29:57that he's got a real battle to get his place in the team.
29:59I think that's clear because of Rigg and Alan Brown.
30:02And so there's an interesting dynamic to it.
30:04If somebody put a huge bid on the table,
30:06it would definitely leave someone with a decision to make.
30:09But as of yet, that hasn't happened
30:10and there aren't necessarily any strong indications
30:12that it's going to happen.
30:13So it's not one I'd be giving
30:16a huge amount of consideration to just at this point.
30:19But obviously that could change quite quickly.
30:22Yeah, it's an interesting one with Eccle, isn't it, James?
30:24Because probably this time last season,
30:26after the end of the season he had
30:28when Sunderland finished in the playoffs,
30:29he thought this guy could be a real player here.
30:31And we've seen at times
30:32that some of his performances have been exceptional.
30:35I think back to the 5-0 win that Sunderland had
30:37over Southampton and then some other games,
30:39the playoffs two seasons ago,
30:41where he was really excellent against Luton in the first leg.
30:44He's put in some really excellent performances
30:46in the Sunderland shirt,
30:47but there has been a lack of consistency there.
30:50And now Sunderland do have Dan Neil in that position.
30:52They have Alan Brown in that position.
30:54Chris Rigg has dropped further back.
30:56So you perhaps could say that Eccle
30:59is not one of the first names on the team sheet anymore.
31:01And if a big offer did come in for him,
31:03then perhaps Sunderland would have a decision to make there.
31:05But what are your kind of thoughts on him,
31:07on his role in the squad
31:09and whether Sunderland could potentially listen
31:11to offers for him this summer?
31:13I think that midfield competition is really positive for Eccle
31:16because obviously he's played a lot of football
31:19for Sunderland in that midfield too with Dan Neil.
31:22I'm not sure playing in that sort of midfield
31:23to necessarily suit with him.
31:25The role he had to play,
31:28whether he'd be better a little bit further forward,
31:30the road.
31:30And so I think, you know,
31:33competition in the midfield could spur him on a little bit,
31:35could help aspects of his game.
31:38A little bit of variety in the colleague in the middle as well
31:41could definitely help him.
31:42So I think that's definitely a positive.
31:45I don't really see him leaving this summer,
31:48despite the reports.
31:49Obviously, any interested party would have to up the bid significantly,
31:52as Phil mentions.
31:54He's a player I really like.
31:56Obviously, he had that injury issue as well
31:58and he hasn't really been the same since.
32:00But as with a lot of Sunderland's squad,
32:03you do have to take into account that last season was tanked,
32:06really, when Tony Mowbray was sacked
32:08and then we had the Michael Beale era.
32:12And then under Mike Dodds,
32:13things sort of drifted and Sunderland ended up finishing 16th
32:15in the championship.
32:17There were sort of squad issues that were laid bare,
32:19particularly in the midfield,
32:20a lack of competition and players probably playing
32:24a little too much football as well.
32:26So, although I'm not trying to give Pierre-Ekouar an out
32:28because I'm a massive fan of his,
32:30I think he was disappointing at times last season.
32:32I do think, you know,
32:33some of his poorer performances can be explained
32:36by what was going on at the club at the time.
32:39But I think Pierre-Ekouar's ceiling is really, really high.
32:43And if he gets the bit between his teeth,
32:46if he improves perhaps his awareness a little bit as well,
32:50I think, you know, he's got a good engine on him,
32:52his intensity as well.
32:53If he can just step that up a notch,
32:55maybe look at Chris Rigg and get some of that intensity going,
32:58I think he's got so much quality talent on the ball.
33:00He can find the pass when he goes forward.
33:02He can almost be majestic.
33:05And I think when Sunderland's midfield have time on the ball,
33:08I think Ekouar's a really, really good player to have
33:10in and around that.
33:13But I think it's really positive
33:15because all of a sudden you're looking at Sunderland's midfield
33:17and you're saying, well, actually,
33:19there's competition for players of some quality,
33:21which is something we actually talked a lot about last season.
33:24And basically the first two names on the team sheet
33:27were Ekouar, Neil and then Job playing slightly forward.
33:30And we saw burnout really essentially
33:33towards the back end of the season.
33:35And I think that definitely contributed
33:37towards Sunderland falling away so significantly
33:40alongside everything else that was going on at the club.
33:42So I think it's positive.
33:44And obviously there's going to be interests
33:46in Sunderland's good players.
33:49And I think you take that as a little bit of a compliment.
33:51And it's like what we say
33:53and what we have said on the podcast.
33:55Sunderland are in no rush to sell.
33:57They don't have to sell.
33:58It's not like Ekouar's got one year left on his contract
34:00or anything like that.
34:02So Sunderland are in a really strong position
34:04and I think that can only be a good thing.
34:07Yeah, as you mentioned there, I think last season,
34:08yeah, the first two names on the team sheet
34:10a lot of the time were Ekouar and Neil and Ekouar
34:13dropped out of the side a couple of times
34:14towards the end of the season.
34:15But it was definitely a position
34:16where Sunderland lacked depth.
34:18And now by bringing in Alan Brown,
34:20Chris Rigg looks like he may play
34:22in one of those two midfield slots.
34:24And he is versatile as well.
34:26We saw last season he can play on the right.
34:27So there is more competition there, which is positive,
34:30which Sunderland will obviously need
34:31over a 46-game championship season.
34:34But just before we finish,
34:35just wanted to come to you on this one, Phil,
34:38about the backroom staff comment we've had.
34:41Have we not got a striker coach?
34:42It just seems a waste having these forwards
34:44if they aren't going to be used.
34:47What is the latest on the backroom staff?
34:50We heard from Labrie that he may bring in
34:52one of his own or someone else from kind of elsewhere
34:57to come into Sunderland's backroom team.
34:58So what is the kind of latest situation
34:59with the backroom staff?
35:03Yeah, so Labrie is still, I don't know if interviewing
35:06is quite the right word,
35:07because I don't know if that's quite that formal.
35:09He's still speaking to potential.
35:11And candidates, and that will ultimately be his decision.
35:14So that'll be like his assistant head coach.
35:16I don't know exactly what title he'll be given,
35:18but that'll essentially be, you know, the role.
35:22The plan, as far as I understand it,
35:23is to make that appointment.
35:25You know, I'm sort of hopeful that might be,
35:28if not later this week, then maybe next week.
35:30I should ramp up, I think now that
35:31sort of Sunderland are back in the UK.
35:34So I definitely think that'll be in place
35:35before the start of the season.
35:37And then I think it's the case of Labrie taking stock
35:40looking at how new dynamic is with Dodds, Procter,
35:43obviously co-team coach, Alessandro Barcarini,
35:46and whoever this new assistant is.
35:48And then him alongside Christian Speightman,
35:50then determining if there's any areas of sort of specialty
35:53that they want to add.
35:55It's like one of the things he spoke about
35:56in his opening press conference was like set pieces.
35:58So I think once he's got the new person in,
36:00he'll sort of assess all these things and go,
36:02is there anywhere where we have a little bit of a gap
36:04at the moment that we could do with adding
36:08another staff member he talked about,
36:10sort of individual development as well
36:11has been a key thing.
36:12He wants somebody to oversee all of that.
36:14So it'll be a case of bringing one in, I think,
36:15as an assistant.
36:17And then it'll be a case of him determining
36:19what roles the current staff will have.
36:21And then if there's any gaps,
36:23I think we may see somebody added
36:24over the course of the season,
36:25but I would expect it to be sort of one addition
36:29in the short term.
36:30And then maybe some more in the future.
36:32But yeah, I think that's something
36:33that'll probably ramp up now that they're back in the UK.
36:36Mm-hmm.
36:37We're looking ahead to what's next for Sunderland.
36:40They are now away at Blackpool on Saturday,
36:43and then they have two more friendlies
36:45before their season opener against Cardiff.
36:48They'll be against another game,
36:50it's Bradford the following Tuesday,
36:52and then a game against Marseille.
36:55So three more friendlies, James,
36:56before the season kicks off.
36:59What do you kind of want to see in those games?
37:00Is there any players in particular
37:02that you want to see get more opportunities?
37:04Tom Watson obviously did well out in Spain,
37:07scoring that goal in one of the friendlies.
37:09There's been a couple of youngsters
37:10further around the squad.
37:12Are there any players you want to see a bit more of,
37:14and what do you want to kind of see
37:15in these next few games?
37:17Yeah, I think we should give a little shout out
37:19to Tommy Watson, actually,
37:20because he got his goal against Al Dente,
37:22playing off the right-hand side.
37:23Not typically his position,
37:25he usually plays off the left.
37:26Hugely, hugely talented footballer.
37:28I was calling for his inclusion a little bit more
37:31towards the back end of last season
37:33when it appeared that Sunderland
37:34didn't really have too much to play for.
37:35I think he came on against Sheffield Wednesday, perhaps.
37:39I think he did.
37:41Other than that, his chances were few and far between.
37:44He was obviously playing for Sunderland's under-21s
37:47in that Premier League 2 campaign as well,
37:49and was one of the standout performers.
37:51So I'm really, really interested to see
37:54Tommy Watson in a first-team environment,
37:56hopefully in one of these three games,
37:59maybe a couple of these three games,
38:00to see whether he can make an impact as well,
38:03because I think he's got so much talent as a winger.
38:06He looks like a bit of a throwback, really,
38:08to your old-school winger,
38:10in the mould of Jack Clarke, actually.
38:12You don't really tend to see too many of that style,
38:15and it is nice to see.
38:16Obviously, he's a local lad as well,
38:19so looking forward to seeing what he can do.
38:21And I think it's a massive sort of compliment
38:23and vote of confidence in Watson as well
38:24that he's been included in this first team across pre-season.
38:29But in terms of the rest of the squad,
38:32I've enjoyed Leo Hjelda and Joe Anderson as well.
38:35I'm intrigued to see what they can do
38:37going forward in these three games,
38:39and whether they can sort of force their way
38:41into La Brice's plans.
38:43Obviously, with Dan Ballard's injury,
38:45there's a little bit of an opportunity there
38:46for somebody to step up.
38:47You would imagine that would be Alissi,
38:49but you don't know what's going to happen
38:51between now and the start of this season.
38:53I think it's a really pivotal, perhaps,
38:56couple of games for the likes of Jay Mattetti
38:58and Elliot Embleton.
39:01As we've mentioned, as I've said,
39:03I'm nauseous.
39:03There's a caveat on those two players
39:05in terms of they have had injury issues,
39:07but can they sort of develop
39:10a little bit of consistency
39:11towards the back end of pre-season,
39:13really get themselves playing
39:14ahead of potentially a lone move
39:17or perhaps something else?
39:18I'm interested to see how the futures
39:20of those two players develop,
39:23and I'm always looking forward to seeing Chris Rigg,
39:25to be honest.
39:26I think he's been good so far.
39:28During pre-season, Jefferson Bennett,
39:30not really sure what the future holds for him.
39:34I'd like to see him maybe given a little chance
39:37from the start on the wing
39:39in one of the three upcoming games.
39:40And, of course, Strikers is always really interesting.
39:43Can Hamier capitalise on that goal?
39:46Maiander and Roosen as well, in and around.
39:49Be interesting to see what happens there.
39:50And Mundell as well, actually.
39:51Romain Mundell has really, really impressed me
39:54during pre-season so far,
39:56so I'm looking forward to seeing him.
39:58Adil Oushish in the 10th spot.
40:00I think that 10 position is actually really interesting.
40:03We haven't talked too much about it,
40:04but you've got some real contenders for that position.
40:06Oushish, Joe Bellingham,
40:09Embleton could play there.
40:10You could see a player like Chris Rigg
40:13play in the number 10 position.
40:15We haven't quite seen that yet,
40:16so it'll be very interesting to see
40:19who La Brice's first choice 10 is
40:21when we line up against Cardiff City on August 10th.
40:24What should we be looking out for
40:28in these next three friendlies
40:30in terms of players maybe taking their chance,
40:33in terms of players who may leave on loan
40:35and maybe trying to impress and get minutes?
40:38What are the main things we should be looking out for
40:40in the next three games?
40:42Yeah, I think that's going to be the key dynamic really, Joe.
40:45I think one of the big things to be settled
40:48in this transfer window,
40:49I think the loan issue is the big one,
40:51which players go out on loan
40:51and which players stay to offer
40:53cover and competition.
40:55At the moment, I feel like Embleton looks quite sharp
40:58and I think his versatility is just such a massive asset.
41:00I think having a player in the squad
41:02who can basically play any of the midfield or wide roles
41:05I think is a really attractive one
41:07if he can keep fit.
41:08But I think that's a big issue really
41:10in terms of what's the right loan move
41:12for these young players
41:13who maybe aren't going to play.
41:14I think I really rate Matete,
41:16but I think he maybe just needs to go
41:17and play on loan for a season
41:19because I think for me, he's not a six.
41:21He's definitely an eight in my opinion.
41:24At the moment, the competition in those positions
41:26is just so strong
41:28that I think he maybe can just go out and play
41:31and then next year,
41:31I think he'll have a year or two years left on his contract
41:34and you're in a better place
41:36if he's played regularly to make a decision.
41:37But obviously, if any of these players
41:39really grasp the net
41:40over the next few games,
41:41then they could make that position their own.
41:43So I think that's the big thing
41:45I think to watch out for over the next few games.
41:47I would imagine that Saturday
41:49we'll see a strong team again.
41:50I think again, sort of top end,
41:51leave one out position.
41:53I think we'll see sort of a similar team to Forest
41:56and then we'll probably see more rotation
41:57against Bradford on Tuesday.
41:59That would be my guess at this stage.
42:01And at that point,
42:02then I think you're in a position
42:03where you can start to make some decisions
42:05and I think we'll see movement after that
42:07because obviously the Marseille game
42:09is a dress rehearsal really, isn't it?
42:11So you want to see,
42:13I think by that point,
42:13Nabriso will want to play
42:15as many settled partnerships as he can
42:17and he won't be wanting to make loads and loads of subs
42:19because he'll obviously want to be
42:20a bit of a dress rehearsal
42:21for the first game of the season.
42:22So yeah, I think that lawn issue
42:24and those kind of,
42:25inverted commas, fringe plays,
42:27I think it's the big thing to watch
42:28over the next two games.
42:29I imagine we'll see a lot of them
42:30potentially against Bradford.
42:31Now I wonder if we'll start to see some movement
42:33and some decisions made after that game.
42:36Yeah, certainly a lot to watch out for
42:39over the next few weeks
42:42and you can find all the build up
42:44to that game against Blackpool
42:46on Saturday over on the SAFC section
42:48of the Sunderland Echo website.
42:50James, Phil, thanks a lot for joining me
42:52on the latest episode of The Raw Podcast
42:55and if you like what we do here,
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43:10Once again, thanks a lot for listening
43:11to The Raw Podcast.
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