- 6 weeks ago
James Copley, Jason Jones and Phil Smith are back with another episode of The Roar Podcast as they dissect Sunderland’s 2-0 win over Wolves at the Stadium of Light.
The lads discuss Vítor Pereira’s post-match comments, fan reaction, and how Régis Le Bris’ tactical tweaks paid off in another strong home performance.
There’s also debate over whether Le Bris could switch system for next weekend’s trip to Chelsea and what Sunderland’s growing maturity says about their Premier League evolution.
The lads discuss Vítor Pereira’s post-match comments, fan reaction, and how Régis Le Bris’ tactical tweaks paid off in another strong home performance.
There’s also debate over whether Le Bris could switch system for next weekend’s trip to Chelsea and what Sunderland’s growing maturity says about their Premier League evolution.
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01:31What I like about that result on Saturday is that it does mean that when you go to the likes of your Stamford Bridges and those sort of games at Sunderland, probably deemed to be free hits in some respects.
01:43It sort of takes some of the pressure off.
01:45You know, there's not the need to go there and obviously you want to get a result, but if they don't get a result, it's not going to be the end of the world because they are picking up points in games against the likes of Wolves, you know, teams who are probably going to be down there this season and who many people would have expected Sunderland to be down there with come the end of the season.
02:02In terms of the performance itself, it felt a little bit segmented to me.
02:06I thought that Sunderland started really brightly, were very much on top for the first sort of quarter of the game, if you like.
02:13It then sort of felt as if it shifted and I thought towards the end of the first half and certainly at the beginning of the second half, I thought the Wolves sort of moved into the ascendancy quite a bit.
02:24I think that if we're being completely honest, it wasn't a perfect performance in a lot of respects.
02:31I think that Sunderland and certainly Sunderland supporters will feel and hope that there are levels for this team still to reach because I think that you'd probably like to see them capitalise on the advantage that they created for themselves a little bit more, put games to bed, you know, not just be relying on one goal and then a really stellar defensive performance.
02:51And then obviously the goal later on did ultimately bury it.
02:55But I thought that by and large, you know, good performance from Sunderland, really good defensive performance from Sunderland, but one that I think still leaves a fair amount of room for improvement.
03:05Yeah, we were kind of grappling with this question when we did our instant reaction video, James, in terms of like, were Sunderland quite poor in the second half?
03:14Was it just kind of inevitable having not killed the game off with a second goal?
03:17Obviously, Wolves boss Vita Pereira kind of made out like his team with the second coming of Kroos Barcelona at the start of the second half, which I thought was maybe a little bit over the top.
03:27But a couple of days on, how do you kind of reflect on that second half, James?
03:31I suppose there's another point here where what a position to be in, right?
03:35Sat on a Monday morning debating the merits of the performance level in a 2-0 Premier League win.
03:40I was sort of quietly pleased with the performance in the sense that I felt that despite Wolves having a little bit of pressure, that Sunderland kept them at arm's length.
03:51It wasn't like the goal was peppered.
03:53I felt Sunderland still maintained a level of control.
03:56I think Sunderland were perhaps a little bit sloppy.
03:58That was where my concern came from.
04:00It wasn't through anything really amazing that Wolves were doing.
04:03I think they only managed three shots on target in the whole game.
04:05And it was more, I felt that concentration might be the thing that undone Sunderland, but it didn't happen in the end.
04:13I thought Pereira's comments were interesting, obviously, a man under pressure.
04:18I know you dipped out, Phil, to start transcribing Reggie's thoughts after the game.
04:24And it's one of those where you sort of sat there and you're like half concentrating because you're trying to do things post-match.
04:31And it's like, oh, he's actually said that.
04:34Like, oh, OK, well, that's going to make a little bit of a headline.
04:38But he's obviously got his opinion and he's entitled to it.
04:41Wolves did have a fair spell of possession and a fair spell of quote-unquote dominance.
04:47As I said, I really don't feel like Hull were battering down Sunderland's door or anything like that.
04:54It didn't feel like it was all hands to the pump defensively for Sunderland either.
04:58I very much thought it was at arm's length.
05:02But, yeah, that's what pressure will do in the Premier League to a manager, I think.
05:07But, as you say, it is a nice place to be in a sense that I feel, and we touched on this in the reaction video,
05:14that Sunderland have a couple more gears, maybe even three or four to go through.
05:18And I think the point as well is this side's still gelling.
05:22There were so many new additions in the summer, and there's been a fair bit of chopping and changing by LeBris as well.
05:29I'm still unsure as to who Sunderland's two best wingers are.
05:32We haven't seemed to work that out yet.
05:34So, I think there's still little bits and pieces going on in the background as well.
05:38And, you know, some signings like Troy, yet to start his first full game.
05:44Brian Broby, still getting up to speed, yet to start his first full game.
05:48So, I think there's positives there for Sunderland, and hugely important, I think, that win over Wolves,
05:54because it really creates some distance now between the bottom spot and the relegation places.
06:02And had Sunderland not won that game, and perhaps had Sunderland not won a few other of the games as well,
06:07suddenly you're looking at that festive run of fixtures, panicking a little bit, really,
06:11that you don't have points on the board.
06:12It's certainly better to have those points on the board now,
06:15going into that tough run with the African Cup of Nations as well.
06:18We don't have a crystal ball.
06:19We don't know what's going to happen.
06:21We don't know if this good start will be enough to stay in the Premier League.
06:24But I think it's beyond what anybody could have hoped for and expected, to be honest.
06:29My greyhound penny's just come in when you started talking there, James.
06:33So, she must have thought you had some particularly keen insight to give there.
06:37So, I feel like that's an endorsement of your insight.
06:41I mean, listen, I think definitely the point you made there, Jase,
06:45is, you know, Sunderland were sloppy in possession right at the start of the second half.
06:48We can talk about whether it matters too much, but that's obviously just a fact.
06:52But I guess there's just kind of a reality here that you don't build a top Premier League team
06:58in all facets of the game overnight, right?
07:00And I feel like this is something that we have to suck up a little bit because I think it's very clear
07:04that when Sunderland sort of built this team over the summer and designed this plan
07:08for how they were going to stay up, it was defensive solidity first and foremost, right?
07:12And I think, like, Saturday, again, is another game that totally vindicates that approach,
07:16that it wasn't always sparkling.
07:18But ultimately, you know, if you concede in an XG of under one,
07:23every single game is a newly promoted team, which is basically what's happened so far this season.
07:27You give yourself a real chance, right?
07:29And I feel like everyone's kind of comfortable with that.
07:31We want to see something and hold the ball a bit better at times.
07:34But it's just where we are, isn't it?
07:35Eight games into the season as a newly promoted team.
07:39Yeah, absolutely.
07:41And I think the key is that the man who's most comfortable with that is Jase.
07:45Because, like, there are a few times where I was watching the game on Saturday
07:48and I'll be honest with you, I'm still sort of getting used to this idea
07:52of some of them being able to hold teams at arm's length,
07:55being that confident in their defensive solidity.
08:00So there are a few times where that sort of lingering panic does set in a little bit.
08:05But it's something that Sunderland are proving that they can do on a weekly basis, you know.
08:09And it is giving them a really solid foundation to build on
08:12and a foundation that we haven't really seen from many newly promoted teams in recent seasons.
08:18You know, you're absolutely right.
08:20Obviously, this is going to take a little while to probably click.
08:24Let's not forget as well that in the centre of midfield, they're missing Khabib Diara.
08:28I thought Noah Siddiqui coming off the back of a potential injury scare
08:32was every inch of the Noah Siddiqui that we would expect him to be on Saturday.
08:36You know, so credit to him for that,
08:37even though he did seem to pick up a little bit of a knock later on, didn't he?
08:41But, you know, it is going to take Sunderland a little while to mesh all of the sort of components together
08:48in a way that really does sparkle, although we have seen it at times this season.
08:53But like you said, that defensive platform is going to be the key.
08:56And I think James is absolutely right.
08:58Even though Wolves did have a lot of the ball, a lot of the territory,
09:01you can count on one hand the amount of times where it genuinely looked
09:04as if they were going to threaten to put the ball beyond Robin Roos.
09:08And again, you know, shout out to Roos, because when he was called upon in those couple of moments,
09:13he was solid.
09:15Again, he made the saves, even though there were saves you'd expect to make,
09:17he made the saves that he was required to and ultimately kept yet another clean shame.
09:23The thing about Roos is that it's just a little bit of an aside,
09:27but I think, you know, the point you made that was really interesting,
09:29because there is this thing, you know, Saturday's a great example,
09:31you're expecting to make those saves, right?
09:32But one of his best attributes is how much power he generates on his saves
09:37to palm it away from trouble, like that one.
09:39So I would expect my goalkeeper to make that save from Minetsi 99 times out of 100.
09:45But it's the way that he generates the power to put it away from trouble.
09:47I was thinking this because I was watching some highlights back the other day.
09:50The Brentford penalty is another great example, right,
09:52where he palms it like 15 yards down the pitch.
09:55So I think that's a really underrated skill of Roos.
09:58James, I think that the set piece thing is really interesting, right,
10:01because that was the one aspect of Pereira's comments that I kind of understood.
10:05I can imagine as an opposition manager, it's incredibly frustrating
10:08when you try and get into the game and Sunderland are taking time out.
10:11They're using their long throws and their corners to slow the game down.
10:15From a Sunderland perspective, this is something that I really rate.
10:18Everyone will have their own opinions on football and style and what have you.
10:21But the way that Sunderland are able to manage the game by slowing it down sometimes
10:26and building pressure, pushing the opposition back and getting players up the pitch,
10:29it's something that we're not really used to Sunderland being a really good set piece team.
10:34This is a new thing for us, isn't it?
10:36It's something that, while I can understand how frustration it must be
10:39for the opposition at times, this is one of the things that's impressed me most,
10:42the way that Sunderland used set pieces and long throws to totally keep Wolves,
10:45you know, camped in their own box in the first half.
10:47I thought that was really impressive.
10:57Sorry, I'm muted.
10:58I feel like this has come sort of full circle in a way,
11:00because when we were in League One and the Championship,
11:02we used to get really frustrated with this, didn't we?
11:03The ball wasn't in play, teams would take the time.
11:07But it doesn't feel like the same to me in the Premier League,
11:10maybe as we do take a couple of extra seconds,
11:12but I don't think we're necessarily time wasted.
11:15I think in the Premier League, you've got to be switched on as a defence,
11:18defending against set pieces at all times, haven't you?
11:20We've seen this re-advent of the long throw that's emerged this season,
11:25which I'm all for, to be honest.
11:27So it is pleasing to see the new set piece coach as well
11:33sort of paying dividends for Sunderland.
11:34It's a facet of the game that you need to make the most out of,
11:37and Sunderland have started to do that.
11:39But it is impressive, as you mentioned, my dog's just turned up.
11:44It is impressive, as you mentioned, Phil,
11:47that Sunderland are able to sort of manage games so quickly in the Premier League
11:52in terms of sort of bending them to the will.
11:54They can't always do it against Man United and stuff like that.
11:57It will prove difficult.
11:59But I think for the most part, you're right to highlight it.
12:02And it's got to be an asset going forward.
12:04It has to be an asset for a newly promoted club,
12:07making the most of set pieces.
12:08And Sunderland are doing that at the moment.
12:10Jase, we just need your rabbits to come and join,
12:12and then we'll have a full row house.
12:15I mean, I think what James alluded there, Jase,
12:18I think that's the point I was kind of trying to make,
12:19is that especially in that first half, right,
12:22yes, it is slowing the game down sometimes,
12:24but I don't feel like it's one of the time-wasting.
12:26I feel like it's the opposite of that.
12:27They're using set pieces to build a spell of pressure,
12:31if that makes sense.
12:32And the thing that pleased me about the first half the most,
12:35which is maybe why I thought the confidence from the Wolves boss
12:37were a bit odd, was that within the set players,
12:39those have not played some of their best football of the season.
12:41And the goal absolutely embodies that, right?
12:44Lovely pass from Zaka, two little moments of magic
12:47from Enzo Lafayette, lovely little one-two in the finish, right?
12:50Like, that isn't a hit-and-hope set-piece goal.
12:54That's lovely football, right?
12:56Yeah, sorry, I'm a little bit distracted by James' doggy.
12:59No, it absolutely is.
13:01You know, I think, you know, look,
13:04Naughty Mukiele, all of the plaudits that he's gotten
13:07for all aspects of his game,
13:08obviously got his first goal for the club as well at the weekend.
13:11But one of the things that we're really seeing from him
13:13is that that long throw is an absolute weapon.
13:16And Sunderland are using it to the best of their ability
13:18because especially when they have Dan Ballard on the pitch,
13:22you know, I can't remember the last time
13:24I saw Dan Ballard lose an aerial duel.
13:26He just throws himself at everything.
13:27He's a constant fawn in the side of opposition defenders.
13:30And for that reason, you know,
13:32if you've got those two, you know, weapons in your arse
13:36and if you've got the long throw,
13:37if you've got a player who's going to attack balls,
13:39and obviously, you know, it's relevant to free kicks
13:43in around that sort of final third as well.
13:46But why wouldn't you take the time
13:48to use them as effectively as possible?
13:50It just makes absolute sense.
13:53In terms of the goal, yeah, brilliant football, isn't it?
13:56You know, I thought the little knock from Hugh and the assist
14:01in him with the LA, the little disguise he puts on that
14:04and the vision to be able to execute that.
14:07But not just that as well.
14:08Lucky LA's desire to make that run,
14:11to drive into the box and get on to the end of it,
14:13you know, I think that it really is quite emblematic
14:16of what we've seen from him, isn't it?
14:17I think, was it Guy Mowbray doing Match of the Day
14:20and he said that he plays happy football?
14:22And I really, really like that.
14:24I love that, yeah.
14:25He's a happy bloke, to be fair.
14:26He's a very, very happy bloke.
14:28I thought that was a great question, that from Guy Mowbray.
14:31I saw that match day.
14:32I thought that summed up Mukela perfectly right,
14:34because we can say, you know, great football,
14:37a long throw, love all this,
14:38but I think it sums it up, Jase,
14:40that he's bringing something a little bit extra
14:42to the table as well in terms of his leadership.
14:44And Labrace uses the word energy,
14:46and I think that's right, isn't it?
14:48It's not just the football with him, isn't it?
14:49There's something a little bit different
14:50that he's bringing to the party.
14:53Yeah, exactly.
14:54You know, it's a willingness to positivity
14:55in his mannerisms, in the way that he carries himself,
14:58but positivity in the way that he's willing to take a game
15:00by the scruff of the neck and really stride with it.
15:03Obviously, we saw him at fullback for the first time
15:06in a Sunderland shirt,
15:08and I thought he was just as impressive there
15:10as he has been at centre-back,
15:11which obviously speaks to his versatility as well, you know?
15:14I think it gives Sunderland wonderful options
15:17moving forward,
15:18knowing that, you know, in those fullback areas,
15:21if Mookie L.A. is required to play there, he can.
15:23If Trey Hume is required to move over to the left, he can.
15:26Obviously, being able to bring Dan Ballard
15:28back in the start in XI,
15:29I don't think anyone would argue that,
15:31based on his performances,
15:32he absolutely deserves to be in the team.
15:34It's just a way of finding
15:35how to get all of them into the side,
15:37because everybody at the back
15:38is playing so well at the moment.
15:39So, yeah, all in all,
15:41some real, real positives of the weekend.
15:44Can I just add as well,
15:45that he's so, so intelligent.
15:46Me and Nick Barnes spoke to him
15:48after the Huddersfield-Carabao Cup game.
15:50First impressions were that
15:52he was actually sort of really willing to talk,
15:55which, having just come from PSG,
15:57and, you know, he was really quite open
15:59and honest and seemed quite excited
16:00to play for someone.
16:01So that was the first thing that surprised me.
16:03The second thing was that
16:04Barnsley was asking him about his English,
16:06which is absolutely excellent,
16:07and where he learned English.
16:09And he turned around and said,
16:10oh, yeah, when I turned up at Leverkusen,
16:12I only knew one language,
16:13and now I'm fluent in three.
16:14And me and Barnsley were just sort of like,
16:16what on earth?
16:17So the IQ on the guy
16:18is clearly, clearly very, very high.
16:20And I think he shows that in his play.
16:23And it's ironic, isn't it,
16:24in a sense that he was only over
16:26on the left wing for that goal
16:27because of the set piece,
16:28but it's the most sort of
16:29unset piece-like goal you're going to score.
16:31It was a moment of real quality.
16:32So Pereira's comments, really,
16:36they're a bit of a shambles in the sense
16:38that Sunderland didn't necessarily score
16:39from the set piece.
16:40It was a moment in which Wolves switched off.
16:43And I don't think that's down to Sunderland
16:45taking an extra couple of seconds
16:47on a throw-in, to be honest.
16:48I think he's clutching at straws.
16:50I reckon we've now given Vito Pereira
16:54enough of a kicking,
16:54so we'll move it forward slightly.
16:59He's going to be devastated when he hears
17:01he's been criticised on the Rope podcast.
17:03Just before we look specifically
17:07at the Chelsea game,
17:09I just wanted to pick up
17:10on the Ballard thing a little bit
17:11because I was really surprised
17:13he didn't start at Man United.
17:15I thought that was a rare error
17:17from Labrise.
17:18And I think that,
17:20surely we're at the point now
17:22where no matter how you do it,
17:24this guy has to be in the team, right?
17:25He is, especially,
17:27I think we've probably all been
17:28a little bit surprised
17:29by how physical and direct
17:30the Premier League has got
17:31since Sunderland were last in it
17:32and how it seems to have changed
17:33over the last couple of years.
17:35This guy's a must-pick
17:36in the Premier League right now, right?
17:38Just no matter how you do it,
17:39no matter how you sort of
17:40shuffle things around,
17:42you can't pick a Sunderland team
17:43without Ballard in this form in it,
17:46can you?
17:47It certainly feels that way.
17:49He's been absolutely magnificent
17:51from the first whistle
17:53of that West Ham game onwards.
17:54I know, obviously,
17:55he had the little injury
17:56and missed a short spell,
17:58but he has been
18:00nothing short of exemplary.
18:04You know, everything he does,
18:06his physical presence
18:07is borderline unparalleled
18:09for me, in my opinion,
18:11and obviously,
18:13that's without taking into account
18:14the quality of his defensive work,
18:16how measured he looks
18:17on the ball as well,
18:18which I don't always think
18:19he gets the most credit for.
18:21Huge improvement
18:22over the last 18 months, right?
18:24Because that was the one question mark
18:25he had over Ballard
18:26when he first came into the team,
18:27but he doesn't look like
18:29that player who can't handle
18:30himself on the ball
18:31anymore whatsoever, does he?
18:32I do think that's the big thing
18:34he's improved on.
18:36Definitely,
18:36and I think it's maybe
18:37one of those where,
18:38you know,
18:38we've spoken about this
18:39with various other players,
18:40but he's probably benefiting
18:43from having that higher quality
18:44of player around him.
18:46You know,
18:46someone like Omar Alderete
18:47next to him,
18:48who himself is phenomenal
18:50on the ball, really.
18:52You know,
18:52someone like Muchiele
18:53in there as well,
18:54you know,
18:54so he looks like a player
18:55who's come on leaps in bounds.
18:57And, you know,
18:58it's not just for Sunderland.
19:00I mean,
19:00the last international break
19:01of Northern Ireland,
19:03Northern Ireland came really close
19:04to me against Germany
19:05getting a really decent result.
19:07And I know there were
19:08a few Newcastle fans
19:10on Twitter
19:10who maybe pointed out
19:11that it was Volker Marder
19:12who scored a winning goal,
19:14obviously from a corner
19:15that Ballard's nowhere near him for.
19:16But actually in that game,
19:17if you look at it,
19:18I think Ballard won something
19:19like 14 aerial duels
19:21compared to Volker Marder
19:23who lost 11
19:24or something like that.
19:25So, you know,
19:25we're talking about a player
19:26who is able to go
19:28to tour-to-tour
19:29aerially with pretty much
19:31anybody,
19:32come out on tour.
19:33And then you talk about
19:35the aspects of this game
19:35that improve
19:36as much as they have.
19:38And it is just really,
19:39really difficult to see
19:40how you can justify
19:43leaving him on the bench.
19:44I know it's not easy
19:45to get him in the team
19:45when you've got Alderete
19:46and Muchiel
19:47as well as they are.
19:48Obviously,
19:48Ryan Nildo coming back
19:49from suspension as well now,
19:50which is going to create
19:51a certain amount of headache
19:52or reducing risk.
19:53But in this form,
19:55Ballard's kind of got to be
19:57in the start of the line.
19:58I think we've only conceded
19:59once with him
20:01in the team this season.
20:03I think he came on
20:04in the Villa game
20:05and Villa scored
20:05just after he'd come on.
20:06Maybe it's about
20:07eight or nine minutes.
20:08I think that's the only time
20:09they've conceded
20:09with Ballard on the pitch.
20:11I mean,
20:12when I last checked,
20:13which was just before
20:14the international,
20:16yeah, that's right,
20:17international breaks
20:17after the Man United game,
20:18per 90 minutes,
20:19he had the most
20:20clearances and blocks
20:22in the Premier League,
20:23which I think,
20:23I know,
20:24obviously,
20:25it helps playing
20:25this Sunderland team,
20:26right,
20:26where we're quite happy
20:27defending the blocks.
20:28I think that speaks
20:29to his quality as well.
20:31I mean,
20:31Jason just mentioned it there,
20:32James,
20:32when I did on the whistle
20:33yesterday,
20:34the main question
20:35I was getting over
20:36and over again was,
20:37does Ray Nildo
20:37come back into this team?
20:38And I'm going to get
20:39both your thoughts on that.
20:40My kind of view was,
20:41if we switch to about five,
20:43then maybe there's space
20:44there for Ray Nildo.
20:45But I'm kind of of the view
20:46that I think you have to,
20:48the back four for me
20:49from Saturday has to play
20:51because I think they've
20:51deserved that opportunity.
20:53And I really rate Ray Nildo.
20:54I think he's got a massive
20:55part of the play this season.
20:56But I'm kind of of the view
20:57that he made an error
20:58and he's probably going to
21:00have to wait for his
21:01opportunity unless,
21:02you know,
21:02we do switch to a back five,
21:04which might change things.
21:05But first and foremost,
21:06you,
21:06James,
21:06what's your kind of view
21:07on that?
21:07I think I disagree slightly
21:12in a sense that
21:12I would change it
21:14to a back five.
21:15I would go Rufus
21:16and then I would start
21:17Hume,
21:17I'll direct you Ballard,
21:18Nordi,
21:18and I'd bring Ray Nildo
21:19back in.
21:20I do hear what you're saying
21:21about,
21:22you know,
21:23rewarding the players
21:24that have just won,
21:25not changing a winning team.
21:26But I think he's going to
21:27learn lessons from
21:28the Manchester United game
21:29where,
21:30as you mentioned
21:31on the last podcast,
21:32Phil,
21:32I think he thought
21:32he could get it United,
21:33didn't he?
21:34It didn't happen.
21:35I think against the
21:36traditional big six
21:37and some games away from home,
21:38I think we've got to
21:39switch to a five.
21:40We've got pace in the team,
21:41try and hit them
21:42on the counter attack,
21:43stay in the game
21:44for as long as possible.
21:46And personally,
21:47I think it's,
21:48I think it's crying out
21:48for a back five.
21:49But whether he does that
21:50or not is a really
21:51interesting question
21:52because he's done it
21:52in games,
21:53hasn't he,
21:53Phil?
21:54But he hasn't done it
21:55from the start.
21:56Did he do it from the
21:57start in the championship?
21:58I don't,
21:58I don't think he did.
21:59It's two formations
22:00with a 4-3-3
22:01and a 4-4-2,
22:02weren't there?
22:03And the Mania
22:03United game is different
22:05because Man United
22:06were playing with a back three.
22:07So when you made that change,
22:08you're literally saying
22:10to Sunderland's players,
22:11you just match up
22:12the opposition player.
22:14So tactically,
22:14it's a much easier switch
22:16I think to make
22:16than if you're playing
22:17against Chelsea
22:18who don't play that way
22:19and everything's
22:19kind of different.
22:21I mean,
22:21what's your kind of feelings?
22:22I mean,
22:22I agree that if Sunderland
22:23play a back five,
22:24I would pick Ray Nildo,
22:25but if I've just kind of
22:27more made the point
22:27that I don't think
22:28you can drop anyone
22:29from that back four
22:31on Saturday.
22:32It's kind of my view on it.
22:33What do you think,
22:34Jess?
22:35Yeah,
22:36I'm tempted to agree
22:37with both of you,
22:38to be honest.
22:38I think if he sticks
22:39with the four,
22:40it's hard to justify
22:41dropping any of those.
22:43I thought Trey Hulme
22:43did a wonderful job.
22:45A left back,
22:46obviously got his assist
22:46and he scored himself,
22:48but all of the work
22:49you'd expect him
22:50to get through
22:50anyway,
22:51he got through
22:51admirably.
22:52Again,
22:54you know,
22:55we've seen
22:55LaPriest do this,
22:56haven't we?
22:57He's meritocratic.
22:58Like,
22:58you can't fault him
22:59on that.
23:00Like,
23:00start the season
23:01with Eliza Mayenda
23:02up top.
23:02When it became apparent
23:03that Wilson Isidor
23:04was banging in goals
23:05left,
23:05right and centre,
23:06he brought Isidor
23:06on the side
23:07and he's stayed there
23:07ever since.
23:08You know,
23:08and I think that was
23:09the correct decision
23:10based on form.
23:12You know,
23:12he's not necessarily
23:14going to shoo
23:15Horner and Ildo
23:15back into the side
23:16just because he's
23:18back from suspension
23:18and like I sort of
23:20said with the
23:21Ballard situation,
23:22which is again
23:23another example of that
23:24because Ballard
23:24was playing wonderfully,
23:25but looky LA
23:26came into the side
23:26and started playing
23:27so well that he
23:28couldn't be dropped.
23:29You know,
23:30how can you justify
23:31dropping any of those players?
23:33There's just not
23:34an argument to be made
23:35for taking any of them
23:36out of the side
23:37given how well they've
23:38played,
23:38given that Sunderland
23:39have got the result.
23:40If he does stick
23:41with the four,
23:42I think he's got to
23:43stick with that four.
23:44I absolutely agree
23:45as well though
23:46that if it is the five
23:47then I think
23:47Reinhardt walks
23:48back into the side
23:49and I do see the
23:50merits of go and
23:51do the five.
23:52I think that,
23:52you know,
23:53against a team like
23:54Chelsea,
23:56Manchester United,
23:57whoever it might be,
23:58you've got to play
23:59to your strengths
23:59and I think that
24:00at the present moment
24:01in time,
24:02Sunderland's strengths
24:02are evidently
24:03defensive solidity,
24:05defending that box.
24:06I think that
24:07there's an argument
24:07to be made in terms
24:08of outfield players,
24:10Mugiele,
24:11Ballard and
24:11Alderete have
24:12arguably been
24:13three of their
24:14best four so far
24:15this season.
24:15So if there's a way
24:16of getting those
24:16on the pitch
24:17and it also
24:18limits your chances
24:20of conceding
24:20against a very
24:21threatening Chelsea
24:22side,
24:23then I think
24:24he really has to
24:25put that into
24:26consideration
24:27going into the
24:28weekend.
24:28There's another
24:29thing here,
24:30James,
24:30as well,
24:30which is,
24:32let's say,
24:33play hypothetically,
24:34I think given
24:35everything we know
24:35about LeBris,
24:36I think he's more
24:36likely to stick
24:37with a back four
24:37to be honest,
24:38but let's say
24:39hypothetically he does
24:40switch to a back five,
24:41if you're Luciao
24:42or Getroida,
24:43are you not
24:43knocking on the
24:44door and saying,
24:44well hang on,
24:45I haven't put a foot
24:46wrong when I've
24:47come off the bench,
24:48surely if we get
24:50another defender in,
24:51it's my time
24:52for an opportunity.
24:53I think that's a
24:54very interesting
24:55question,
24:55I also think it's
24:56an interesting
24:57question that if he
24:58did go to five at
24:59the back,
25:00whether he could
25:01put Getroida in
25:02midfield,
25:03potentially,
25:04and sacrifice
25:05somebody there,
25:06maybe like an
25:06Enzo Le Fay
25:07or something like
25:08that,
25:08you know,
25:08just for a bit
25:09of defensive
25:09stability.
25:10We can't have
25:11six defenders on
25:12the pitch,
25:13James,
25:13come on,
25:14let's calm it
25:15here.
25:16Actually,
25:17thinking back to
25:18it,
25:18we watched the
25:19Nottingham Forest
25:20Chelsea game,
25:20didn't we,
25:21before the
25:21Sutherland game
25:22because it was
25:22the only kick-off
25:23and Forest did
25:24turn up with
25:24a back five
25:25for that game
25:26and Chelsea
25:26ended up winning
25:273-0.
25:28So,
25:28you never quite
25:29know,
25:29do you?
25:30But I think
25:30Getroida's
25:32looked really,
25:32really good,
25:33hasn't he?
25:33When he's come
25:34on to see out
25:35the games
25:35and he's
25:36probably wondering
25:36how on earth
25:37he's going to
25:37get into this
25:38team and where
25:39he needs
25:39Trey Hume to
25:40do some sort
25:41of ridiculous
25:41red card
25:42challenge,
25:43doesn't he?
25:43And get in
25:44that way because
25:44at the moment
25:45he faces a little
25:47bit of a battle,
25:48doesn't he?
25:48But I'm sure
25:49there'll be
25:49opportunities for him
25:50coming up,
25:52he'll pick up
25:52a couple of
25:53injuries but
25:53I'm excited by him
25:54because he strikes
25:56me as a proper
25:57top-class operator
25:57and I think he'll
25:58be able to slot
26:00in sort of
26:00seamlessly wherever
26:01he's deployed as
26:02well.
26:02I mean,
26:02he can play in
26:04three or four
26:05positions and I
26:06think that's
26:06going to be
26:07really,
26:07really,
26:07really important
26:08heading towards
26:09the festive
26:10fixtures.
26:12I loved his
26:12celebration,
26:13I don't know if
26:13you saw it on
26:14Match of the Day
26:14after the second
26:15goal,
26:16to make that run
26:17to get up the
26:17pitch which kind
26:19of helped force
26:19the own goal
26:19and then his big
26:20celebration in front
26:21of the Roker
26:21end,
26:22I think it just
26:22kind of summed
26:23up how much
26:24the new players
26:25have bought into
26:26things.
26:26But James,
26:27you've walked
26:27straight into my
26:28trap,
26:28so I haven't
26:28picked a back
26:29six and I
26:30assume you're
26:31picking Granit
26:31Zaka as well
26:32and Robin
26:32Ruffes.
26:33You've only left
26:34yourself three
26:35attacking players
26:36for Saturday,
26:37so who are you
26:38picking?
26:38Mourinho?
26:40Yeah,
26:40so I'm going
26:41obviously in the
26:41middle three,
26:42Xhaka,
26:43Sadiqi and
26:43Lafayre and
26:44then I was
26:45going to go,
26:45I'll be off
26:46Isidore.
26:46I don't think
26:47Labris is going
26:47to do this,
26:48by the way,
26:49but that's what
26:50I would do,
26:51but he's paid
26:52to manage
26:53Sunderland in
26:54football matches
26:54and I am
26:55certainly not,
26:56so I thought
26:57Tarby was really
26:57good off the
26:58bench and I
27:00guess the
27:01Isidore question
27:02is interesting
27:02as well in the
27:03sense that would
27:04he be tempted
27:04to go with
27:05Mayanda just to
27:05get that extra
27:06bit of pace in,
27:07sort of very
27:07direct,
27:08isn't he?
27:08but Isidore's
27:09hardly done
27:10anything wrong,
27:11he was unlucky
27:12just to be a
27:13half a yard
27:14offside,
27:15it was an
27:15excellent finish
27:16wasn't it,
27:16for the offside
27:16goal,
27:17I thought he
27:17was decent
27:18tied towards
27:19the end of
27:19the game,
27:21so yeah,
27:21that's my
27:22Sean Dyche
27:23Brexit football
27:24FC team to
27:26face Chelsea
27:26at Stamford Bridge.
27:28Yeah,
27:29wherever you
27:30end up managing
27:30James,
27:31I'm not buying
27:31a season ticket,
27:32that's for sure.
27:33Well,
27:33football manager's
27:34out soon,
27:35so hang on
27:35to your hats.
27:37Jase,
27:38I mean the
27:38Isidore one's
27:39interesting,
27:40I did see a
27:40bit of debate
27:41about potentially
27:41bringing Brian
27:42Brobby in
27:43at the end of
27:44the weekend,
27:44I can kind of
27:45understand why
27:45in terms of
27:46£20 million
27:46striker,
27:48try and get
27:48the team,
27:49but for me,
27:50I think Isidore's
27:51personally,
27:51I don't know what
27:52you think,
27:52I think he's an
27:52easy pick at
27:53the moment,
27:53he works hard
27:54out of possession,
27:55never lets you
27:56down on that
27:56front,
27:57and even on
27:58Saturday in a
27:59game where
27:59there weren't
28:00loads and loads
28:00of chances,
28:01he's quite close
28:02to getting a
28:02brace,
28:03if you think
28:04about the
28:04offside goal,
28:04and then that
28:05one where he
28:05plucked Alderete's
28:06pass out of thin
28:07air really and
28:08put it just
28:08wide or far
28:09close,
28:10for me,
28:10it's not a
28:11position where
28:12I'm looking at
28:12thinking,
28:13oh you need to
28:13tinker with this
28:14and change it,
28:14I just think he's
28:15doing the job he's
28:16being asked to do
28:17at the moment,
28:17I mean what's
28:18your kind of
28:18feelings there?
28:19Yeah,
28:21again he's another
28:21one isn't he,
28:22who hasn't really
28:23done anything to
28:24mirror it coming
28:24out of the side,
28:26I think sometimes,
28:27as you're sort of
28:28hinting at there,
28:28his defensive
28:29work rate actually
28:30flies under the
28:30radar a little bit,
28:31I think that
28:32Isidore,
28:32he puts in more
28:33graft than I
28:34think he perhaps
28:35gets credit for,
28:36he is scoring goals,
28:39obviously,
28:39what was it,
28:40three in the
28:40Premier League so
28:41far,
28:41three and eight's
28:42not bad for
28:42the striker who's
28:43just come up,
28:43and then if you
28:44take into account
28:44the fact that
28:45he's half a yard
28:45away from having
28:46four and eight,
28:46I think that's a
28:47phenomenal return
28:48really for a
28:48player who's first
28:49of all playing in
28:50the newly promoted
28:50side and second
28:51of all never
28:51played in the
28:52division before,
28:53so again deserves
28:54huge amounts of
28:56credit for that,
28:57I do get the
28:58Broby thing,
28:59I think people
29:00obviously jump in
29:00a bit to see him
29:01in the side,
29:01he's a player who
29:02obviously has
29:03pedigree who
29:04perhaps needs to
29:05rehabilitate his
29:07game a little bit,
29:08maybe wasn't in
29:09the best of form
29:09towards the back
29:10end of his time
29:11at Ajax and
29:12obviously has a
29:13lot to offer if
29:13he can get back
29:14to the levels
29:14that we know he
29:15has,
29:16but I think that
29:17patience is
29:18the key with
29:19all of these
29:19players in the
29:20sense that it's
29:21kind of like what
29:22we're saying about
29:22Gertrude,
29:23isn't it?
29:24The Briss isn't
29:25feeling the need
29:25to rush these
29:26players into the
29:27side,
29:28when their time
29:29comes and their
29:29time will come
29:30because it's a
29:31long campaign and
29:32unfortunately you
29:32are going to have
29:33dips in form from
29:34individuals or
29:35injuries or
29:36suspension or
29:36whatever it may
29:37be,
29:38then they can
29:38make their case
29:39when they come
29:39into the side,
29:40but I think that
29:42just trying to
29:43jam Broby into
29:45the starting XI
29:45just because he
29:46costs a certain
29:46amount of
29:47money or just
29:47because he's
29:48got a certain
29:48profile to him,
29:49I don't think it
29:50makes any sense
29:50right now.
29:51I think that
29:51Isidore is
29:51playing well
29:52enough to
29:52justify his
29:54start and
29:55birth and I
29:55think until
29:55he isn't,
29:57then that
29:58quote-unquote
29:59number nine
30:00shirt is his
30:01to lose
30:01really,
30:02isn't it?
30:03I'm just
30:03going to
30:04just finally
30:05chat about the
30:06wingers because
30:06it was something
30:06you mentioned
30:07earlier,
30:08James,
30:08I think it's
30:08an interesting
30:09talking point in
30:09terms of
30:10not knowing who
30:10their best
30:11wingers are
30:11Saturday is a
30:13really interesting
30:13one because
30:14Enzo has one of
30:16his best
30:16performances of
30:17the season.
30:17I don't think
30:18it's any
30:19coincidence that
30:19in a game
30:20where Sunland
30:20are actually
30:20able to enjoy
30:21a bit more
30:22of the ball
30:22and get up
30:22the pitch a
30:23bit more,
30:24you see that
30:24Enzo is more
30:25than good
30:26enough to
30:26play at
30:27this level.
30:28And then
30:28Talby has
30:29another really,
30:30really strong
30:31cameo off the
30:31bench,
30:32right?
30:32And I think
30:33we've seen
30:33enough now to
30:34know that at
30:35this point of
30:35his career,
30:36he's more
30:36comfortable off
30:37the left and
30:38he has more
30:38of an impact
30:38off the left.
30:39So you kind of
30:40have this thing
30:41where we've got
30:41like,
30:42if you add
30:42Adingra to
30:42the mix,
30:43we've got three
30:44potentially really
30:45strong left
30:46wingers and
30:46we've kind of
30:47ended up with
30:47a little bit
30:48of a vacancy
30:49on the right.
30:50You can't write
30:51Bertrand Traore
30:52off yet,
30:52he's had like
30:53two starts,
30:54but there's a bit
30:54of an imbalance
30:55there,
30:55isn't there?
30:56It's a really
30:56interesting one
30:57for LaBrice to
30:57kind of manage
30:58over the next
30:59few weeks.
31:00Yeah,
31:00I thought Traore
31:01struggled against
31:02Wolves at times
31:03with his
31:03decision-making.
31:04I think he got
31:04through a hefty
31:06amount of work
31:06in fairness to him,
31:08but didn't offer
31:09that much going
31:09forward and as
31:10I say,
31:11was a little bit
31:11sloppy.
31:12There was a couple
31:12of moments that
31:13were quite worrying
31:14before he got
31:14substituted.
31:16Agree,
31:16Enzo has been
31:17fantastic,
31:18but Talby keeps
31:20popping off the
31:20bench and adding
31:22a little bit of
31:22what's something
31:23need towards the
31:24end of games.
31:25I don't really
31:26know what the
31:26answer to me on
31:28question is.
31:29To be honest,
31:29I think that
31:29right wing position
31:31is there for
31:35somebody to really
31:36stake a claim to
31:37long-term.
31:39I think at the
31:39moment I'd
31:40probably go Enzo
31:41on the left if
31:42we played a 4-3-3
31:43and then probably
31:44Edingra on the
31:45right from what
31:46we've seen.
31:47But I like
31:48Edingra.
31:49I'm backing him
31:49to come good for
31:50Sunderland,
31:51but struggled
31:53against United,
31:54didn't he,
31:54on that left
31:54with Masawaku
31:55behind him.
31:57It's tougher.
31:58It's the one area
31:59of the team where
31:59you're sort of
32:01waiting for players
32:03to step up on
32:04the wings,
32:05barring Enzo,
32:05of course,
32:06as well.
32:06But sometimes,
32:06obviously he can
32:07be deployed in
32:08the middle.
32:09So I think it's
32:09an interesting
32:10question going
32:11forward,
32:11actually.
32:13I think you've
32:14got to have a
32:15lot of sympathy
32:15for the wingers,
32:17Jase,
32:17because this feeds
32:18into the kind
32:18of discussion we
32:19had at the
32:19start of the
32:20podcast where
32:20part of the
32:22problem here is
32:22the way this
32:23team is set up.
32:24It isn't built
32:25for wingers to
32:26be constantly
32:27one-on-one
32:27with their
32:28fullback and
32:29dancing to the
32:29byline and putting
32:30crosses in.
32:31I guess this is
32:32the heart of the
32:33debate,
32:33where at the
32:34moment there's
32:35such an emphasis
32:35on these guys
32:36to put in a
32:37shift defensively
32:38because especially
32:39in the games
32:39where Sunland
32:39don't have a lot
32:40of the ball.
32:40And if we're
32:41brutally honest,
32:42that's what
32:42Saturday is going
32:43to be.
32:43I don't think
32:43we're going to
32:44rock up with
32:44Stemford Bridge
32:45and have 70%
32:45possession.
32:46So I suppose
32:47it's a debate,
32:48Jase,
32:48where we have
32:49to also be
32:50really fair to
32:51these guys and
32:52say it's really
32:53harsh to say,
32:54oh, well,
32:54there's not enough
32:54goals or assists.
32:55It is a difficult
32:59position at the
32:59moment in some
33:00ways, isn't it?
33:01Yeah, it really
33:02is.
33:04And I think,
33:05again, just to
33:06echo what James
33:07said, I thought
33:09Traore struggled
33:10in the aspect of
33:12his game that
33:13you'd expect him
33:14to be thriving
33:15in a little bit
33:15more, that
33:16front foot,
33:17his ability to
33:18do five-yard
33:19passes, just
33:20going astray
33:21and really
33:22lax moments
33:23from him.
33:23That you'd
33:24expect a player
33:24of his experience
33:25and obvious
33:26quality to not
33:28be producing at
33:29this particular
33:29moment in time.
33:30I think, from
33:32what I've seen,
33:32and again, not
33:33writing him off,
33:33I would be
33:34tempted to bring
33:34him outside at
33:35the weekend.
33:37That obviously
33:37does then open up
33:38the question,
33:38doesn't it?
33:39But I think
33:40that Enzo kind
33:41of has to stay
33:42in there because
33:43he's been
33:43brilliant.
33:44And again,
33:46another one who
33:46is a defensive
33:47worker is brilliant,
33:49absolutely fantastic.
33:50And what he brings
33:50to the team in
33:51that respect is
33:52really notable.
33:56I think Talby's
33:57kind of similar
33:57in a sense,
33:58isn't he?
33:58I think what we've
33:59seen from him is
34:00that he is willing
34:01to put that
34:01graft in,
34:02he is willing to
34:02get back over
34:04his own head
34:04and go in the
34:05other direction
34:06to help out.
34:07That being said,
34:09I don't think
34:09it's a coincidence
34:10that he looked
34:11so effective
34:13coming off the
34:13bench against
34:15tired legs.
34:16And when Sunderland
34:17are willing to
34:18sort of sit
34:18really deep
34:19in that defensive
34:19third,
34:20I think that
34:20what you're saying
34:20about the way
34:21that Sunderland
34:22players not
34:22really benefit
34:22from wingers
34:23is correct.
34:24But the flip
34:25side of that
34:25is that it
34:26does allow a
34:27player like Talby
34:27with his obvious
34:28pace and his
34:28directness when
34:29he is on the
34:30ball to really
34:31capitalise in the
34:32latter stages of
34:33matches.
34:33I think for that
34:34reason,
34:34even though you
34:35could argue that
34:36he probably
34:36deserves a
34:37starting spot,
34:38I would be
34:39tempted to maybe
34:39just leave him
34:40as a bit of an
34:40impact sub for
34:41the time being.
34:42And I think for
34:43that reason,
34:45he'd be tempted
34:45to give a ding
34:46for another shout.
34:47I know obviously
34:47he prefers to play
34:48on the left,
34:48but out on the
34:50right you'd expect
34:51him to be able
34:52to,
34:52which obviously
34:52he's a player
34:53of real quality,
34:54obviously he is
34:55right-footed as
34:56well,
34:56so it wouldn't
34:57necessarily be
34:57ideal for the
34:58first,
34:59but I think right
34:59now if I were to
35:00pick my two starting
35:01wingers against
35:02Chelsea,
35:02I'd be going
35:03Enzo on the left
35:03and the ding
35:04right out on the
35:04other flank.
35:05Would either of
35:06you consider
35:07Mayender as an
35:08option on the
35:08right wing?
35:08From the start,
35:12it's tough,
35:12isn't it,
35:12because he's
35:13inexperienced in
35:14that position in
35:14the Premier League
35:15and it's a big
35:15ask defensively as
35:16well.
35:17I thought the
35:19last two games
35:20he's come on,
35:22he's had a good
35:22impact and I know
35:23he's sort of played
35:24off the right of
35:24Man United,
35:25but it was a bit
35:25different because he
35:26was playing sort of
35:27inside,
35:27wasn't he?
35:28So he was still
35:28mainly playing in
35:29central areas.
35:30I'm quite happy
35:31with Mayender at
35:32the moment as a
35:33player who can come
35:34on against high
35:34legs and carry the
35:35ball and offer
35:36something a little
35:36bit different.
35:37I think it's a
35:38good way for him
35:39to sort of keep
35:40picking up his
35:40experience in the
35:41Premier League
35:41game and although
35:42it's a little bit
35:43of a problem
35:44position,
35:45I just think I'd
35:46be more comfortable
35:46with Talby or
35:48Odinger out there
35:49personally from the
35:49start.
35:51As the game
35:51develops,
35:51it might be a bit
35:52different.
35:52If the game's a
35:53bit more chaotic,
35:54then I think Mayender
35:54potentially can thrive
35:55from the right.
35:56But I mean,
35:57we've sorted our
35:57team, right?
35:58We're going six at
35:58the back,
35:59we're playing three
35:59left wingers.
36:02I'm getting two
36:03goalkeepers in there
36:04if I can.
36:05I'm getting some
36:06fancies coming back.
36:07So hopefully
36:08Rajiv Sabrish has
36:09been watching this
36:10because we've
36:11given him some
36:12really, really good
36:12insights for
36:13Saturday's game.
36:14But I guess there's
36:15another point here,
36:16right, just to wrap
36:16this up, that it's
36:18nice to be looking
36:18in different positions
36:19with two or three
36:21different options.
36:22I mean, especially
36:22defensively, you
36:24know, the strength of
36:25this group, if you
36:26like, you know, we
36:27haven't even talked
36:28about the go nine
36:28is, I mean, this is
36:30kind of what makes
36:31you think that we've
36:32got a real good chance
36:33of staying up this
36:33year, right?
36:34It's that, you
36:35know, the depth and
36:36quality in those
36:36defensive positions is
36:38exceptional, isn't it?
36:39You have to give a lot
36:39of credit to
36:40Sunderland's recruit
36:40before that.
36:42And even further
36:43forward, I mean,
36:43Romain Mundell will
36:44come back some
36:45point in November.
36:46Yeah.
36:47He's a player I really
36:48like.
36:48That's another left
36:49winner.
36:50That's going to be
36:50really important
36:51during AFCON, I
36:52think, isn't it?
36:52Because that is a
36:53position where we're
36:54really going to
36:55struggle.
36:55So there we go.
36:57I think we'll
36:57wrap it up there.
36:58An absolute pleasure
36:59as ever, gents.
37:00Hopefully next week
37:01we will be back to
37:03talk about a win
37:03over Chelsea, but I
37:04think this is by some
37:05distance our toughest
37:07test yet.
37:07So there'll be
37:08absolutely stacks of
37:09stuff over on the
37:10Sunland Network
37:10website over the
37:11next few days.
37:12Keep an eye out for
37:12that.
37:13And I'm sure we'll
37:14have a bit more
37:14video content over
37:15on the YouTube
37:16channel as well.
37:16But as ever, thanks
37:18very much for
37:19listening to the
37:20Raw podcast.
37:20Give us a like and
37:21a subscribe wherever
37:22you're listening and
37:23we will be back
37:24soon.
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