'Sweden joined NATO because of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine', Swedish Foreign Minister says

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00:00to you. Thanks very much for finding the time to talk to us today.

00:05Thank you very much.

00:06Now, Sweden joined NATO in March of this year. That was after decades of neutrality. So just

00:13explain to us, first of all, why Sweden joined now?

00:21Sweden joined because of Russia's illegal invasion of Ukraine. And that led both Sweden

00:26and Finland to reach the decision that it was only by joining NATO and being given the

00:32protection under Article 5, one for all, all for the many, that we would be able to protect

00:38our populations. It's also clear that Russia, just before the war in December, sent a letter

00:43to the world by Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov saying that Sweden and Finland would never

00:48be allowed to join NATO. So we already knew where Russia was on this particular issue.

00:53But as we can all see, this was a major defeat already for Russia that Sweden and Finland

00:58has joined and that Sweden has given up a history of 200 years of being a non-military

01:04aligned nation. And this is as a consequence of this war and the ruthlessness which Russia

01:09pursues this war against Ukraine and its population.

01:13And as you've spelt out, you joined NATO in the wake of the Russian invasion of Ukraine.

01:18Presumably then, you do understand why it is so important for Ukraine itself to join

01:24the alliance. How close is Ukraine to being admitted into the NATO fold?

01:33Indeed, it is very important, of course, for Ukraine to be allowed to walk the path towards

01:38becoming a full member of NATO and also of the EU, because these two processes are slightly

01:43interconnected because what Ukraine now performs in reforms of its constitution, its laws against

01:50corruption, etc., will also, of course, play into the thing about becoming a NATO member.

01:56And we see progress, even under these very difficult circumstances with the war ongoing

02:02against Ukraine because of Russia's illegal aggression. We can see that Ukraine performs.

02:07I'm not going to set a specific date, but I would like to point to the fact that the

02:10summit here in Washington is now following up on last year's summit in Vilnius, Lithuania,

02:15and the word irrevocable, the irrevocable path for Ukraine towards NATO membership is

02:21now in the conclusions of the summit. And this is something which Sweden is very, very

02:25much in favour of.

02:27This is Robert Parsons, chief foreign editor at France 24. Given what you've just said

02:34and the pressure on Ukraine coming from Russia, what more precisely can be done at the moment

02:43to help the Ukrainians achieve the goal, ultimately, of victory against Russia?

02:50Well, one very important thing also coming out of the summit here in D.C. of NATO is

02:57the decision to see to it that NATO will now take over the coordination of the support

03:02for Ukraine from the U.S. and other member states. It will be a coordinating organization.

03:07And this is very beneficial for the long-term support by NATO allies towards Ukraine. Let

03:13us not forget that 99 percent of all military support to Ukraine has come from NATO allies.

03:20With this coordination mechanism, it will be possible to increase the production of

03:24defence material given to Ukraine. And this is something which Europe has to do, because

03:28Europe has to understand that we have also a greater responsibility than other states

03:33to see to it that Ukraine receives defence material, not only to defend itself, but also

03:39to retake the offensive and ultimately win decisive military victories in the battlefield,

03:46which is the only thing which is going to make Russia alter its course and its goals.

03:51The re-establishment of a territorial integrity and sovereignty of Ukraine is paramount. And

03:56this is ultimately what this war is all about.

03:59You say that, but there do seem to be divisions within NATO about how to achieve victory and

04:05what victory actually means, ultimately. Today, we had a response from Moscow to the NATO

04:10summit, Dmitry Peskov, the press secretary, Vladimir Putin, saying that there would have

04:17to be a strong response to what NATO had done and said over the last three days. Is there

04:23a real danger, do you think, that this war in Ukraine could sip over into a wider conflict

04:28between Russia and NATO? And what needs to be done? How should NATO act, given that that

04:35possibility exists in the background?

04:39Well, first of all, we have seen a lot of sabre-rattling from Russia over the years

04:45since Russia launched its full-scale invasion against Ukraine, and even prior to that. So

04:52I don't think that we should take those threats very seriously. The ultimate thing to understand

04:56is that Russia only believes in one thing, and that is power, and military power above

05:02all else. And helping Ukraine to regain the initiative by helping out militarily, humanitarian,

05:09financial, and political, is Sweden's first and foremost political priority. There is

05:14nothing more important for us in foreign policy than aiding Ukraine. And we are going to act

05:18along those lines also as a NATO ally and as a member of the EU, because the security

05:23concerns us greatly in all these organisations, what's going on, the outcome of Russia's illegal

05:29aggression against Ukraine. And helping Ukraine, as I said, is a long-term commitment. It has

05:33to go on regardless of elections in the US and regardless of how we view Russia's machinations

05:40with China, Iran, and North Korea, who are ganging up as authoritarian states. And China

05:46wishes, of course, to see Russia win in Ukraine, because that will mean that the whistle blows

05:51for its ambitions in the Indo-Pacific. So the security of the Euro-Atlantic and the

05:56Indo-Pacific is now closely interconnected. I would say that they are almost two sides

06:01of the same coin. And we have to realise this, and we have also to understand that if we

06:05want the US to remain committed to what's going on in Europe and the war in Ukraine,

06:09we, NATO allies and the EU, have to show interest and commitment to what's going on in the Indo-Pacific.

06:15That doesn't mean military support. It's a question about political support and the

06:20understanding that the four IP nations, Japan, South Korea, Australia, and New Zealand, who

06:25are represented here at the summit here in Washington with NATO as partners, that they

06:30have great concerns over the assertiveness of China. And we have to weigh this in in

06:35our strategies.

06:36I want to come back to China in a moment, sir. But first, you mentioned elections. And

06:41I just want to get clarity from you on whether you and your European NATO colleagues are

06:48concerned that Donald Trump might win the election in the United States in November

06:53and what kind of impact his presence may have on the bloc.

07:01I think we, first of all, have to snap out of a misunderstanding, all of us, namely that

07:07the discussion of US engagement in NATO and support is only about Donald Trump.

07:13What he has been saying, and what the European Parliament has been saying, is that Donald Trump is not going to win the election.

07:20Unfortunately, it seems to me we have lost our...

07:27Can you hear us there, Foreign Minister? We had some sound issues on our line, but I gather

07:30you have reconnected. Do you hear me well?

07:35I hear you very well.

07:37All right. Well, go ahead, sir. Answer my question then about Donald Trump, what impact

07:42his possible win in the United States may have on NATO.

07:46Yeah, well, the important thing to understand is that the United States has had over several

07:52years and decades throughout many presidents legitimate concerns over the fact that European

07:59allies have not spent enough on defence. There is a lot of talk, for example, about

08:04the 2% target. Sweden is reaching the 2% target already this year and we will remain above

08:10the 2% target and we encourage others to do the same and we consider it as a flaw and

08:15not a ceiling. And I think that this has to be weighed in when we talk about the outcome

08:20of the US election. We shouldn't have free riding in NATO. Everybody has to live up to

08:25their commitments and this is a clear signal we wish to send also to the American people.

08:30We understand that you cannot carry the burden of defending Europe alone. We all have to

08:34do our part of the work and those NATO allies who have not yet reached the 2% goal should

08:40speed up and do so.

08:41All right. A final question for you then. You mentioned China as well a bit earlier

08:46on. NATO has issued a really rather strong statement on China this week at the summit

08:51calling Beijing, and I quote, a decisive enabler of Russia's war in Ukraine. You personally

08:58have called on NATO to step up efforts on China. Just spell out for us why and your

09:04response then to the backlash that we can see that this is already generating in Beijing.

09:10Well, first of all, we fully back this statement because it is quite clear that China, together

09:17with countries like Iran and North Korea, are enablers of Russia's illegal aggression

09:22against Ukraine. They are supporting Russia by military means and also by political and

09:28financial means. And this we have to take into account when we speak about China. There

09:32is also China's assertiveness against other states in its neighbourhood. I'm not only

09:37talking about the IP4, Japan, South Korea, Australia and New Zealand, but also other

09:41states like the Philippines, like Vietnam and of course also Taiwan, who feel the breath

09:47of a dragon down their neck. And we have to take this into account and understand that

09:52the Euro-Atlantic security and the Indo-Pacific security are something which would be a concern

09:57to all of us. And we should stand up for values and for rights, regardless of geographies.

10:03And NATO membership, as Sweden now has, is also a commitment to a certain row of values.

10:10So sending a clear signal to China that we see what you do, we see that you support Russia,

10:15and this is something which we will weigh in when we deal with you. This is very important

10:20and it is an important outcome of the summit here in D.C. that this signal, this clear

10:24message is being sent to Beijing.

10:28Great to talk to you, sir. Thank you very much indeed for your time. That's Sweden's

10:31Foreign Minister Tobias Bellström speaking to me and Rob Parsons here on the programme.

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