- 2 years ago
Chris Rigg contract latest, Speakman update, Le Bris' first Sunderland interview
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00:00Hello, welcome to the World Podcast.
00:21My name's James.
00:22I'm joined by my colleague, Phil.
00:24Phil, how are you doing today?
00:26Yeah, no bad, thank you.
00:28Easy start of the week, isn't it?
00:30So, yeah, feeling good.
00:31Yeah, lots to talk about, Sunland-wise.
00:33Are you enjoying the Euros, though, Phil?
00:35It's crunch time now.
00:38Yes, I am.
00:39I've enjoyed most of the games that haven't involved England or Scotland.
00:44I think they've been probably the two least enjoyable teams to watch.
00:50I watched Spain-Georgia the other night, which was incredible.
00:54Two teams I'm very fond of.
00:57Yesterday, not so good, to be honest.
01:01Yeah, I have enjoyed it, but I am quite looking forward to the club season
01:06coming back, to be fair.
01:08I thought the Portugal game last night, it wasn't really thrilling in terms
01:15of end-to-end attack in football, but I found it really engrossing,
01:18just the little narratives that played.
01:20It was so tense.
01:21Ronaldo's missed penalty and then the penalty shoot-out,
01:24Costa saving three penalties.
01:26It was a decent match-off, actually.
01:29I think anybody who still plays football manager,
01:34which is obviously not me because I am way too old for that,
01:37but anyone who plays football manager will not have been surprised
01:40by Diego Costa's performance because that guy, well,
01:44he's a virtual joke and it turns out he's an absolute joke in real life as well.
01:48No, I agree with you on this.
01:50I think that's the good thing about international football.
01:52It feels like a lot of the time it's a lot more tense, isn't it?
01:55The quality is obviously not as good as to what we're used to seeing
01:57from like Coque, Viguari, all of them.
02:00Sometimes it's actually all the more entertaining for that,
02:02I think, sometimes.
02:04So, yeah, I mean, Friday is going to be unbelievable, isn't it?
02:07Spain, Germany and then France, Portugal, yeah?
02:11I mean, that's what it's all about.
02:14Spain look like the team to me so far,
02:17but you can't count out the Germans or the French at any time,
02:21but saying that against Georgia, that game was so open.
02:24It was such a good watch for all Spain dominated in their attacks
02:28and got the goals.
02:30There was definitely space there to be exploited,
02:32so that would be really interesting.
02:34Yeah, I think Spain are definitely the best team I've seen so far.
02:37I think they're the one that most looks like a club team,
02:40do you know what I mean?
02:41In terms of like they play the most convincing football,
02:43they look the most in tune.
02:45I mean, Yamal is 16.
02:47That is genuinely staggering.
02:49But in a one-off knockout game,
02:52I think I'd still fancy France.
02:54I know it's boring,
02:55but teams that don't concede goals win tournaments
02:57and they are so painful to watch.
02:59And sometimes it actually infuriates me
03:01when you look at the talent that they've got,
03:03that they win, you know, that they play the way they do.
03:06But if you look at their record over the last like four tournaments,
03:09it's like very hard to criticise, isn't it?
03:11So, I still make France my favourites,
03:15but I do think Spain are being the best team.
03:18The one prediction I would confidently make is
03:20I think the win is going to come from that half of the draw.
03:23I don't think, from what I've seen so far,
03:26England or the Netherlands are going to cause too much problems
03:29for whoever gets the final from the other side.
03:31I actually fancy Switzerland on Saturday,
03:33to be honest.
03:34They'd look pretty good to me.
03:35Hopefully I'm wrong.
03:36I would love, I would love,
03:37I'd really like Southgate to win it
03:39because I really like him and I think he's done,
03:41he's made that team for the most part really likeable
03:44and good to watch and stuff.
03:45I hope he does it,
03:46but I just think they've been pretty poor.
03:48It feels like it's a matter of time before he catches up with them.
03:51Yeah, I just think there's that little question mark,
03:53tactically, about Southgate on the biggest stage.
03:56But we'll move on to Sunderland matters.
03:57You did mention Lamine Yamal, Phil,
04:0016 years old, playing for Spain.
04:02From one world-class youngster to,
04:04hopefully, another world-class youngster at Sunderland,
04:07Chris Rigg.
04:08What is the latest and should we get excited?
04:13Well, I would always urge a little bit of caution
04:16just because, you know,
04:18these things are never done until they're done.
04:19And we've seen some crazy things in football,
04:22especially after the head coach,
04:25Jim Wilstill and what have you.
04:26I think that cautions us all against getting too carried away.
04:29But I think there is now a,
04:32I think a pretty clear direction of travel,
04:34I think would be the safest way to sort of put it.
04:36I think the club are pretty hopeful,
04:41pretty confident that Rigg has decided he's going to stay.
04:44Certainly for the time being,
04:45he's going to sign his first professional contract at the club.
04:49And from what I gather,
04:51I think that's something that we might hear something on fairly soon.
04:53We'll come to Christian Speightman's sort of interview with the club media
04:57shortly, I think.
04:58But, you know,
04:59his final sentence was to say that, you know,
05:01there should be some exciting sort of contract news coming soon.
05:05And I think it's fair to assume that that's Chris Rigg related.
05:08So, yeah, I think not done yet.
05:11But at this point,
05:12it would be a major surprise if he didn't sign his first pro deal
05:16over the course of the next week or so.
05:18I'm hopeful that, to be honest,
05:19by the time some people get around to listening to this,
05:21the news might already be out there.
05:23We'll wait and see on that.
05:24But certainly there's more confidence than there's ever been,
05:28I think, over the last few months,
05:29that this is now something which is hopefully going to happen.
05:33And it's, you know, if, when it does happen,
05:36hopefully it does happen, as you say, Phil,
05:38but it's a vote of confidence, isn't it,
05:40in the way Sunderland have handled Chris Rigg,
05:43quote, unquote, the model at the club.
05:46It's a vote of confidence in Regis Libéry.
05:48Obviously, we understood that Chris Rigg was actually holding off,
05:51seeing who Sunderland's new head coach was.
05:53Obviously, he's had a little bit of time,
05:55not a great deal of time,
05:56but to sort of meet Libéry first training sessions.
06:00But it is a very good look for Sunderland that they've managed to persuade
06:05Chris Rigg to stay amid transfer interest
06:08from just about every top-level European club.
06:11Obviously, there was the Newcastle link as well.
06:13They would have certainly been interested,
06:15probably attempted to get him.
06:17You know, it's no secret that Chris Rigg has family ties to Newcastle as well,
06:21so that could have been quite an emotional move for him in many ways.
06:24But what we must say is that, you know,
06:26he's emotionally tied to Sunderland as well.
06:28He loves Sunderland fans.
06:30He's quite happy at the club.
06:31And I just think it's so important.
06:34You know, the club structure as well, Phil,
06:36he's probably going to become a very well-paid teenager.
06:41We were talking on the call today,
06:42you mentioned that possibly one of the highest-paid teenagers
06:45outside the Premier League in England.
06:47It's a sort of two-way vote of confidence, isn't it?
06:51Yeah, it is.
06:52I mean, I suspect there would have been more liquid offers
06:55if he wanted to push to go to the Premier League.
06:57So, I think that's an important distinction to make.
07:00He certainly won't be, if and when he signs that pro deal,
07:03he certainly won't be staying for the money.
07:04Although, of course, you know, as you said,
07:07he will be sort of well-compensated, certainly for his age, I think.
07:10I think the reason we've talked about a lot,
07:13because we've chatted about Rigg's situation loads on this podcast,
07:16is that if he stays, it'll be because he's pretty convinced,
07:20A, that there's a really strong development plan for him.
07:23And that's testament to the coaching staff,
07:26let's be fair to the sporting director,
07:28in terms of they've put something together that Rigg finds compelling,
07:31that he finds convincing.
07:33But more than anything else,
07:35it's because he believes he's going to play.
07:37Now, obviously, no player is guaranteed first-team football.
07:39They have to earn it on the training ground,
07:41all those kinds of caveats.
07:42But I think it's a really interesting talking point as well,
07:44because, you know, we're all guilty,
07:47you know, we're guilty of talking on this podcast
07:49about wanting Sunderland to really have a go at it,
07:52to really push for promotion, because it's such a huge club.
07:55And quite rightly, the fans should demand
07:57that the club pushes for promotion.
08:00But I suppose you have to say as well,
08:02is that you can't have it all, can you?
08:04And the only reason why Chris Rigg is staying
08:07is because Sunderland gives so many opportunities to young players.
08:11And so it's all about finding that balance, isn't it,
08:14between giving these young players the opportunities they need,
08:18which will convince them that they shouldn't go to the Premier League,
08:20because Rigg could push to go to any one of those clubs you mentioned.
08:23The facilities would be unbelievable.
08:25The standard of coaching would be absolutely elite.
08:28But they wouldn't get first-team football for a while.
08:30So let's make no mistake, that's why Rigg is staying.
08:33It's why Joe Bellingham signed last summer,
08:35when he probably could have gone to any level of Premier League academy
08:38that he wanted.
08:39So I do think it's an interesting one,
08:41and just almost reminding ourselves, you know,
08:43me and you chatting on this podcast,
08:45that, you know, for all that Sunderland need to find the right balance,
08:48you know, they also have to prove
08:51that they will give these players opportunities.
08:52And sometimes that will be at the expense of a more experienced player.
08:55And that is why we're talking about one of the most exciting prospects
08:58in England, deciding to stay at Sunderland.
09:01So, yeah, that's going to be the really interesting theme this summer,
09:04is can they, you know, we make no mistake,
09:06I'm not trying to sort of rewrite history.
09:08Sunderland have to add some experience to this group this summer.
09:10There's no doubt about that,
09:11because they were short on leadership last year.
09:13They were short on championship experience.
09:15I don't necessarily mean age.
09:17I mean, you know, players who have 100, 200 championship appearances
09:20under their belt.
09:21But I definitely think this is a, this is a huge,
09:25this is definitely a huge win for Sunderland's strategy
09:28in terms of really committing to becoming known as a club
09:32where young players get opportunities.
09:34That's why, you know, that is ultimately why Rick Stain.
09:37And it's exciting.
09:38What's going to happen in pre-season?
09:39We know he's going to play.
09:40Is he going to stay on the right wing and really challenge Patrick Roberts?
09:43Or does Sunderland now feel he's ready to come into midfield
09:45or the number 10 role, which is potentially a really exciting prospect.
09:48So, yeah, I'm just excited to see, to see where it goes next.
09:52And I think you made a really good point as well,
09:54in terms of everyone knows, you know,
09:56Rick might not have been Sunderland when he was a boy,
09:59but the kid is incredibly appreciative of the support he's had
10:03since he broke through.
10:05You know, thinking back to that first appearance at Shrewsbury,
10:07that amazing away day at Fulham,
10:09which ended in a draw when we thought he'd got the winner,
10:11but the reception he got.
10:12That plays a huge part in it.
10:14I think we both know it's definitely something that doesn't get taken
10:17for granted.
10:18And I think that's worth mentioning as well, you know,
10:21that Sunderland's support and the way they've taken to Chris Rigg,
10:24I think is definitely an important part of this story.
10:27I also think, just as a little aside,
10:29when you've been at a club so long, like Chris Rigg has at Sunderland,
10:33he's been involved for so long, he's still quite young.
10:36His sort of fandom and support will be very different to ours
10:39because we haven't sort of lived in that football world.
10:42I think we, as fans, as journalists, often fall into the trap,
10:45you know, footballers are fans of one club and that's it.
10:49And it's easy to fall into that trap when it's the Newcastle-Sunderland
10:52divide, but he's probably got an appreciation of both.
10:55And when you actually dig into his history,
10:57it's pretty easy to understand why.
11:00Let's talk about his actual contract, Phil,
11:04and the technicalities of it.
11:05Obviously, Chris Rigg signed a two-year scholarship deal last season.
11:09So, in terms of his contract,
11:11he wasn't in danger of leaving Sunderland for nothing.
11:14But that first pro deal, which he was eligible to sign
11:17when he turned 17 last month, really protects Sunderland,
11:21hopefully for the long term, doesn't it,
11:23in terms of potentially a fee in the future.
11:26Why is that so important?
11:29So, basically, as you mentioned, Rigg signed a two-year scholarship
11:33last summer.
11:34So, he was under contract for next season,
11:37regardless of what happened with his pro deal.
11:39You can't sign a pro deal until he's 17.
11:41In Rigg's case, that was, I think, about midway through June last month,
11:45wasn't it?
11:47Yeah.
11:48So, if anyone had wanted to sign Rigg this summer,
11:50it would have been a straight transfer.
11:52They would have had to come to Sunderland and say,
11:54we're offering you this much for Chris Rigg.
11:56And Sunderland could, of course, have rejected it out of hand.
11:59The issue they would have had is,
12:01if the club had come in for Rigg with an offer,
12:04and Rigg had made clear, look, I want to pursue this opportunity.
12:07I don't see my future at Sunderland.
12:09And therefore, if you don't accept this now,
12:11I'm going to run my scholarship down, basically.
12:13What then would have happened would have been,
12:15he could have left for free next summer and signed to this club,
12:18Man United, Newcastle United, Bayern Munich, whoever.
12:21What then would have happened would be,
12:23if the two clubs hadn't agreed on a fee,
12:25it would have then gone to a tribunal.
12:27And a tribunal would have set the fee based on, you know,
12:30the fact he'd played however many times to Sunderland,
12:32the fact that he'd made X number of youth national appearances.
12:35Sunderland would have been pretty well compensated.
12:38But it's obviously a complete guess.
12:40You don't know what the tribunal is going to come up with,
12:43and you don't know that it's going to come out to your satisfaction.
12:45What the pro deal means is,
12:47is that it will basically take that out of the equation.
12:50So if and when, you know, we're going to touch wood,
12:53multiple times during this podcast,
12:56but touch wood if and when Rigg signs,
12:58what it basically takes all out of the equation,
13:00Rigg will be under contract for a prolonged period of time.
13:03And he'll essentially just become a senior footballer,
13:06whereby a club will have to pay, you know,
13:08a fee and someone will have complete control of that situation.
13:11Of course, X years down the line,
13:13Rigg could potentially leave on a free when that contract expires.
13:16But let's be honest, you know,
13:17Sunderland will never let it get to that situation.
13:19So financially, this is huge, really.
13:21It means that Sunderland are in a position where,
13:23if Rigg ever did leave,
13:25then they're in a position where they can demand
13:27and be in control of the fee,
13:29which they'll set at the level of, you know,
13:31one of the best prospects in England.
13:32So it's hugely significant.
13:34It really cannot be understated how kind of important this is.
13:38I think from my understanding,
13:40if and when it goes through,
13:42it'll be a pretty sort of, not a hugely lengthy deal,
13:46but it'll be a relatively lengthy deal.
13:48One of the reasons why Sunderland are quite relaxed about it
13:50and quite happy for Rigg to sort of weigh up his options
13:53and think about it properly is because signing in July
13:56means you can sign for a bit longer.
13:58So that's a significant part of it as well.
14:01So, yeah, it's, as I say,
14:04in some ways it doesn't change anything today
14:06in terms of Rigg's situation at the club,
14:08but moving forward, it's hugely consequential.
14:11I think the other side of it, it's not all just about Sunderland either.
14:13This is real stability for Rigg.
14:15You know, he's had a really good enter last season.
14:17He's had a year sort of almost as a senior pro, really,
14:20training with the first team all the time.
14:22And I think this is really good for him.
14:23It gives him some real stability and security
14:25at the start of pre-season.
14:27He takes all that speculation away.
14:30I think it's a real positive for him as well.
14:32It's not all just about the positives for Sunderland.
14:34I think this is a really good thing for Rigg
14:36to get this sorted early.
14:38And now he can just kind of crack on from when it's done.
14:41Yeah, positive for Sunderland as a club,
14:43positive for Chris Rigg as a player,
14:45also hugely positive as well, Phil, for Sunderland fans.
14:49And that sort of PR side of things as well,
14:52as we mentioned earlier, it's a vote of confidence,
14:54but hugely pleasing for sort of that buy-in
14:58from Sunderland fans to the club,
15:00which had maybe gone a little bit awry
15:01with the disappointment of last season.
15:03Obviously, we'll come on to talk about the new club shop,
15:05but does it feel like maybe Sunderland
15:08are just starting to turn that corner a little bit?
15:10I'm very reticent to say that they have,
15:12because obviously we've got the transfer window to come.
15:15God knows what could happen.
15:16And then the start of the season under a new head coach
15:19who is a total unknown in English football.
15:22So I'm not saying we're there yet,
15:24but maybe we're just poking our head out
15:26and looking around the corner, perhaps.
15:29Yeah, I think so.
15:30Well, listen, they have a manager, so that's good,
15:34which has not been the case for quite a while.
15:36So yeah, it's a good place to start.
15:38It's a nice thing.
15:39So I think getting the, and we should say as well,
15:42we now know that you do pronounce the S,
15:44so it's LeBreece, not LeBree.
15:46That is confirmed by the man himself.
15:49I think what that's allowed them to do,
15:52getting that confirmed,
15:54it's allowed them to get on the front foot a little bit, hasn't it?
15:57So we've seen that, you know, we've heard from,
15:59albeit pretty briefly, we've heard from Speakman yesterday.
16:02We saw Kirill at the club shop doing a little interview with the club,
16:05didn't we?
16:06David Bruce has been out and about promoting the shirt.
16:09I think what it's allowed the club to do is to get a little bit
16:12on the front foot and to speak to supporters.
16:14And so, yeah, there's definitely been a huge shift in the mood.
16:17I think that it's very difficult though, because as you say,
16:20LeBreece is just such a huge unknown
16:23and I'm not going to sit here and say that's something to turn the corner
16:26or speak with a huge amount of optimism
16:29until I've actually seen the team play, to be honest,
16:31because I still just think, you know, those performances,
16:34you know, that Sheff Word game the last day of the season,
16:36it still sort of, it still feels very raw to me actually,
16:40to be honest, how poor they were.
16:42So I think there's a lot of work to be done,
16:44but it definitely feels like,
16:46it definitely feels like the club's been able to get
16:48on the front foot a little bit.
16:49And I think to be fair, like, you know,
16:51there's a reason why, you know, Speakman dropped those hints
16:53about the contracts in that interview, isn't there?
16:55I think definitely there's a, I think what we can say is
16:59that Sunderland have turned the page a little bit.
17:02We've started a new chapter now.
17:04I think that's probably the best way to put it.
17:06We have sort of moved on.
17:09And I think the fact that there's probably a little bit more certainty
17:12within the squad whereby we're now talking about players
17:14potentially signing new contracts and looking forward to next season.
17:17I think that reflects the fact that there's a little bit of clarity
17:19and there's probably a little bit of a feeling internally that,
17:21okay, we're back on track now.
17:23We're back sort of doing what we do and moving forward.
17:26So I'm not going to use the phrase turned corner,
17:29because I still think, you know,
17:31certainly in terms of the team from where they finished
17:33and Lebris being such an unknown,
17:35I still think there's a huge amount to see before we can say that.
17:38But I definitely, it definitely feels like they've turned the page on,
17:40on last season and turned the page on.
17:43Yeah, the start of the summer very much felt like a continuation
17:46of where we were at the end of last season,
17:48I think because of the uncertainty
17:50and the understandable disappointment and frustration.
17:53And this does feel like the start of a bit of a new chapter for some men.
17:56And that is, you know, there is,
17:58while I've definitely got a lot of scepticism,
18:00there is excitement in that.
18:02There definitely is.
18:03And I think we're all excited to see what Lebris is going to do as well.
18:06And so, yeah, there's definitely more optimism
18:10than we've had probably at any point over the last,
18:13I don't know, what would you say, five, six months probably?
18:15Yeah, no, absolutely.
18:17And I thought Christian Speakman's interview, Phil, was good.
18:21He acknowledged past mistakes.
18:23He actually offered explanations to why there was a lack of comms
18:27regarding the head coach, Hunt, why that had sort of slowed down.
18:30You know, apologised to fans,
18:32acknowledged last season's mistakes.
18:34Kira Louis-Dreyfus obviously acknowledged last season's mistakes as well.
18:40I thought both Louis-Dreyfus and Christian Speakman's sort of message
18:44to fans were very short to the point,
18:46very sort of sweet, didn't make too many promises.
18:49And I think that's sort of more of that would be nice
18:53in terms of Sunderland fans and sort of what they expect,
18:57just a little bit of a sort of update every now and again.
19:00It doesn't have to be sort of, you know, hugely long videos
19:04and paragraphs, et cetera.
19:06But I think that might go a little bit of a way
19:09to sort of bridging the gap to what we experienced earlier on in the summer.
19:13What did you make of it, Phil?
19:15Yeah, I agree with a certain...
19:17I definitely agree quite strongly with it,
19:19sort of an aspect of what you just said there,
19:21whereby it's something that you see a lot more on the continent,
19:24whereby because the sporting director model is a lot more well-established,
19:28the sporting director tends to speak very regularly.
19:31They speak most weeks.
19:33Now, Christian Speakman is definitely not going to speak every week,
19:36so I don't want to get people's hopes up there.
19:38But generally speaking, there is a lot more of a culture
19:40of the sporting director being more accessible
19:42or certainly communicating more often
19:44because everybody recognises the power that they have at clubs.
19:47And I think in the UK,
19:49because we've been slower in adapting that model,
19:52almost the comms has reflected that as well,
19:55where you still have this slightly surreal situation
19:58where the head coach is the one speaking all the time,
20:01even though actually they're not in control of some huge issues.
20:05I actually think we've seen that at Sunderland a bit
20:07where, you know, you've got Tony Mowbray,
20:09Michael Beale, whoever, answering questions
20:11about stuff that aren't really within their remit,
20:13but they have to be asked them because they're the person that's there.
20:16So I actually think this would be a really positive thing moving forward
20:19whereby it becomes less of an event.
20:21If Speakman in particular speaks more frequently,
20:24maybe not for as long,
20:26it becomes less of an event and it becomes less of a big deal
20:29and it just helps keep people in the loop a little bit more
20:31and it just stops those vacuums developing
20:33because I think that can be really damaging
20:35at a club of Sunderland's size.
20:37The only one thing I would say is that, like,
20:39while I thought the interview was good and stuff
20:41and it was good to hear an admission of some past mistakes
20:45and I liked the little contract hint.
20:47I thought that was, like, good.
20:49It was, like, giving fans a bit of a bone, you know?
20:51Like, we know you've had a tough time,
20:53but here's some stuff to get excited about.
20:55I thought that was, you know, spot on.
20:57But, like, I do think...
20:59I hope that's not, like, all last season's done.
21:02Never mind.
21:04Because, like, if you think of the scale of what went wrong
21:07in the second half of that season,
21:09the scale and the sequence of bad decisions
21:11which ultimately happened on Louis-Dreyfus' watch
21:13but also Speakman's,
21:15I hope that's not, like,
21:17oh, well, never mind. That's it. That's done.
21:19Because I think there's still
21:21a huge amount of questions about how,
21:23you know, a club that can
21:25be so...
21:27talk so much about being evidence-based
21:29and methodical and how it can
21:31make the decision to get rid of Mowbray
21:33when they did without a successor,
21:35how they could make such a bad follow-up appointment.
21:37I think all these questions,
21:39you know, I think it's still there
21:41and I hope that it's not just, like,
21:43oh, well, you know, that's done now. Never mind.
21:45I suppose
21:47we'll see the proof in the pudding
21:49in terms of have they learned their lesson by it?
21:51Have they got it right with the briefs?
21:53We'll obviously see it in what they're doing.
21:55The transfer window will be a sign of whether they've
21:57adapted from what happened last year.
21:59So, it's obviously something we'll see in actions
22:01rather than words. So, while I did think
22:03it was, like, a good interview
22:05and I think, hopefully,
22:07it's a sign of something a bit more to come where
22:09maybe more shorter, snappier appearances
22:11rather than, as you say, like, longer
22:13gaps and then making a big event
22:15of a sit-down. I think that's potentially
22:17something that could work quite well.
22:19But I'm not sure. I have to say
22:21that I haven't seen a huge amount of accountability
22:23yet for what happened
22:25last season. That would be my one caveat
22:27to that.
22:29Yeah, and it's worth noting as well as that
22:31he hasn't, Christian speaking to Louis-Dreyfus,
22:33they haven't really answered questions from fans
22:35or journalists on last season either.
22:37It's very much been stage
22:39managed, which is good that they've appeared.
22:41But, yeah, I see what you're saying.
22:43They haven't faced any real sort
22:45of scrutiny, have they? I mean, I know there's the
22:47Red and White Army meetings that come up, you know,
22:49every two, three, four months sometimes.
22:51But in terms of actual sort of
22:53sit-down with fans, they haven't really done that.
22:55Although they've met fans, to be fair to them.
22:57Yeah, well, they have just announced there's going to
22:59be an event with Lebris and Spearman at
23:01the stadium next week. So, that's
23:03really good, because I assume
23:05there'll be a chance for fans to put questions
23:07forward, which, yeah, is exactly what we're
23:09talking about. I think this is all good.
23:11But, as you say, I
23:13don't think there's been a level of
23:15scrutiny and accountability that I think is probably
23:17deserved for what an absolute
23:19I nearly swore that,
23:21for what a mess
23:23the second half of last season was on
23:25from the point of Tony Mowbray
23:27sacking onwards.
23:29Let's talk about David Bruce and
23:31Sunderland's new kits. Obviously, the Hummel kit was
23:33revealed last
23:35week to much fanfare. It is
23:37absolutely sublime. I think in my 29
23:39years, nearly 30 years on this planet,
23:41it's the best Sunderland kit that
23:43I can remember. I don't remember
23:45feeling this excited, even when I was a kid
23:47about a Sunderland kit, to be honest. It is
23:49lovely. But the launch of the kit,
23:51Phil, under David Bruce,
23:53the deal with Hummel, the deal with
23:55Fanatics, the opening of the new
23:57club shop, even the little details
23:59like Kiril Uyedreifus, Reggie Liburi being
24:01there alongside Christian Speakman
24:03talking to fans, handing
24:05out the pink slices, it's
24:07really helped turn the
24:09mood around a little bit, hasn't it?
24:11In fairness to David Bruce, his
24:13handling of those two deals with Hummel
24:15and Fanatics and the launch of the club shop,
24:17it's been nothing short of
24:19superb. Hopefully, that
24:21general competence in that area translates
24:23over to the footballing side of things
24:25as well. It was lovely to see
24:27and I think it's a little snapshot
24:29because you give Sunderland
24:31fans a bone, as you say,
24:33and they will run
24:35with it. If it's a good bone, they
24:37will be all over it. The passion,
24:39the thirst for stuff from this
24:41football club, for positivity,
24:43hopefully, that's a little bit of an eye-opener.
24:45It sort of came through in Kiril Uyedreifus's
24:47interview that he did with the club. It was
24:49almost sort of like, right, okay,
24:51that makes sense now.
24:53Give Sunderland fans what they want
24:55and they'll repay you
24:57tenfold. It was good
24:59to see.
25:01It is funny as well, in terms
25:03of, because especially from outside
25:05the city and outside the region,
25:07there's always this narrative of it being
25:09demanding, tough
25:11place, all these
25:13kind of clichés that get thrown. I'm not
25:15saying it's not highly pressurised
25:17and it can't be a difficult place
25:19at times, but I do think
25:21it's the biggest
25:23myth just ever.
25:25Literally,
25:27I think it just goes to show
25:29that actually it does not take
25:31a lot to really get
25:33fans motivated,
25:35behind the club, positive
25:37with you.
25:39I think the whole
25:41thing is just really underlined that
25:43it is not a demanding fan base. It's a
25:45fan base that asks for the club to have a go
25:47and to get the customer service
25:49and the little details and the interaction right.
25:51That's literally it.
25:53I think that's maybe a bit of a lesson
25:55both inside and outside the
25:57club, to be honest, in terms of
25:59it actually doesn't take
26:01a great deal. I agree with you.
26:03I think Hummel and
26:05Fanatics has been inspired
26:07so far, early days obviously,
26:09but the quality
26:11and the feel of the kit
26:13and the little touches,
26:15I think it's outstanding,
26:17to be fair. I really do. I think it's the best kit
26:19probably of my lifetime.
26:21I have a
26:23nostalgia for the sort of Tommy Sorenson
26:25era kits,
26:27but I don't know how much of that is the kit
26:29and just the fact that the team was brilliant.
26:31You know what I mean?
26:33The products and obviously the launch
26:35was done really well. I was there.
26:37I think
26:39what's obvious now with
26:41Bruce is because
26:43he spent a lot of time in the MLS, I think
26:45he's got a really strong
26:47feel for Brandon.
26:49He's got a really strong feel, I think,
26:51for the importance of the little
26:53touches and that engagement.
26:55I think he understands as well, being
26:57a Sunderland fan, that actually
26:59this is a huge revenue stream
27:01and absolutely huge
27:03untapped potential. When we're talking about
27:05financial fair play, parachute payments,
27:07all these big themes, Sunderland
27:09needs to extract every
27:11penny they possibly can from this
27:13fan base to invest in a team that can compete.
27:15The nice thing is fans are happy
27:17to do that. They are happy for the
27:19club to extract every drop of revenue
27:21as long as the product's good and it speaks to
27:23them and they feel proud of it. I think that's probably
27:25the lesson we've learned from these kits.
27:27Fans want to be involved with
27:29the club. They want to put their money into the club.
27:31They want to feel connected to it in any way
27:33they can. I think that's
27:35something that this launch
27:37has really shown.
27:39I think it's just been nice to see people get
27:41excited. It's just something we literally have not
27:43had at all this year. I think people
27:45have felt really down. They've felt really
27:47detached and I think the
27:49excitement people have got and the stories
27:51I think that they've managed to tell
27:53through the kits and stuff. I think
27:55it's been really good.
27:57I think obviously it's still early
27:59days for David Bruce in terms of this is a huge
28:01job and it won't be until much further
28:03down the line we can judge how good he is on
28:05the bigger picture stuff because obviously
28:07there's way more goes into running a business of
28:09size than
28:11kits when you think about the
28:13concerts and all these other huge
28:15and all the infrastructure projects and stuff.
28:17But definitely on this side
28:19of things I think you can see that he
28:21looks to be a pretty savvy operator.
28:23Again,
28:25it's only
28:27seven months since Black Cats
28:29Bar. So as ever,
28:31as with the football stuff, we'll
28:33keep our feet firmly on the ground I think.
28:35Hopefully
28:37I think you used the phrase there. Hopefully this is
28:39an eye-opener for the club's ownership
28:41in a really positive sense.
28:43It's got to be. I mean, cues from
28:45five o'clock in the morning has got to be
28:47an eye-opener that we have to listen to this fanbase.
28:49Hopefully.
28:51I mean, yeah, it has to be.
28:53Let's be
28:55cautiously optimistic.
28:57Yeah, it was nice. I think
28:59as you say, the devil was in the detail. I think
29:01what I took from it, speaking to people
29:03that fans were pleased
29:05they'd been listened to, obviously
29:07long-sleeve shirt, the option
29:09for a short-sleeve shirt, the option not to have a
29:11sponsor on the shirt.
29:13Women's sizes, all of these little touches,
29:15the coordinates of the stadium of light,
29:17the bespoke kits, the socks
29:19that bespoke to Sunderland,
29:21the kits adorned with the shipyard badge,
29:23the
29:25second and third kits, we understand
29:27they're going to have badges from
29:29Sunderland's passed on. So there's all
29:31those sort of little things that do make a difference
29:33to fans and make fans
29:35feel more connected with the club, which is certainly something
29:37that was lacking last season after you mentioned
29:39the Black Cats bar.
29:41We've got a question, Phil, from Jim Smith.
29:43We'll take it into transfers now.
29:45Jim joins us from YouTube. Thanks for joining
29:47us, Jim. He says, what sense do you get
29:49regarding the club's attitude towards
29:51a striker? Are they prepared
29:53to compete with other championship clubs
29:55spending or will they be looking at
29:57a young prospector? I mean, I guess
29:59they've got a couple of young prospects already
30:01but it's a really interesting question actually that, Jim.
30:03What do you think, Phil?
30:07Well, I think there is definitely
30:09a recognition
30:11that they would like a more
30:13experienced, sort of inverted
30:15commas, proven championship striker. I do
30:17genuinely believe that. The question
30:19on that is finances
30:21because Sunderland were
30:23prepared to go and get Kiefer Moore in January
30:25in theory, as in
30:27they were very, very much on with that
30:29deal. They wanted to make it happen.
30:31I understand there are another couple of
30:33what we would describe as proven
30:35championship strikers who they were chasing
30:37but more in particular, other
30:39clubs just went to a much higher level and ultimately
30:41Sunderland sort of held back.
30:43I don't have the answer yet
30:45as to whether they're going to change approach
30:47and really push the ball out this summer.
30:49I can only see them doing it for a loan deal.
30:51I still don't see them going out and handing out
30:53a long-term contract for an older
30:55striker.
30:57That's going to be really interesting
30:59because I think there's definitely been a shift in tone
31:01and a shift in policy behind the scenes.
31:03Not in terms of
31:05playing or signing young players. They're still going to
31:07do that but there's definitely a recognition
31:09that they need some more experience in certain
31:11positions and that that will probably
31:13mean potentially a bit more
31:15of a commitment and wages
31:17but I think that's a lot more manageable
31:19in central midfield for example
31:21or in goal or in centre half or other
31:23positions. The fact of the matter is
31:25that strikers still cost
31:27a premium and
31:29if there's a proven championship striker going
31:31half the championship will be in for them.
31:33So I do think there's a
31:35recognition that they could do with more proven
31:37quality. I still have
31:39my reservations as to whether we'll actually see
31:41them go out and get the deal done
31:43but we'll wait and see on that one.
31:45I still think they'll look to try
31:47and invest in young strikers if they can
31:49because I still think they feel that's the way
31:51to go is to get them in the
31:53building and developing them
31:55in time rather than having to pay an absolute premium
31:57when they're already proven.
31:59What they haven't had
32:01last season was someone that is almost a stop
32:03gap who could take some of the burden off
32:05those young players while they're developing and adjusting.
32:07I think
32:09the ideal scenario would be to maybe
32:11get one of those in on loan if you can
32:13and give those younger players a bit of room
32:15to breathe and develop.
32:17Jim, I do think
32:19there's a shift and I do think
32:21they would like to do that
32:23but I'm not getting too carried away because
32:25I think until that deal is done
32:27and they've really been able to actually push the ball out
32:29and get it over the line, I'm not going to get
32:31too excited. But I do think there has been
32:33a slight shift in the
32:35thinking would probably be the easiest
32:37way to answer that.
32:39Just sticking with transfers very quickly Phil, do you think
32:41that shift in thinking
32:43may have translated
32:45towards the make-up of Sunderland
32:47Squad? Obviously they've signed
32:49a lot of good prospects but they've tended
32:51to be foreign-based players before
32:53they've come over to Sunderland.
32:55Mayender, Jefferson, Bennett,
32:57Hemiya, Abdullabah who's
32:59contributed to be fair, Romain
33:01Mundell. But Sunderland's success
33:03in the transfer market under Speakman
33:05tended to come when
33:07they targeted domestic-based players like
33:09Trey Hulme, Jack Clarke, Patrick Roberts.
33:11There's obviously the experience question
33:13as well.
33:15Sunderland Squad perhaps being a little
33:17too young and too little championship
33:19experience, although there's the caveat that
33:21a lot of those players have now got more championship
33:23experience. Do you think those sort of
33:25parameters are going to shift a little bit more
33:27and basically have Sunderland
33:29learned lessons from last season?
33:31You would hope so?
33:33Yeah.
33:35Yeah, to an extent.
33:37I don't think the policy of
33:39signing young players,
33:41whether it be from
33:43Premier League academies, whether it be
33:45from abroad, I just don't think that's going
33:47to change. And to be honest, I would expect another
33:49sort of group of young players to come
33:51in this summer. It wouldn't surprise me at all. I think
33:53where there is being a shift
33:55or maybe an acknowledgement
33:57is that they need
33:59some more championship experience through the
34:01spine of the team. And I think actually
34:03the important thing to remember as well is
34:05that Evans and Dak have gone. So they
34:07actually need to bring in two experienced
34:09championship players just to replace what they've already
34:11lost from that very inexperienced
34:13group. Part of the issue
34:15last season, of course,
34:17was that Evans and Dak were two of the most
34:19experienced players in the team, but it was very difficult
34:21for them to get the full value for that
34:23because they weren't on the pitch enough. Now
34:25that's not me excusing Sunderland because in both
34:27cases, obviously Evans they knew
34:29was going to be out for most of the season and Dak, there was
34:31always going to be a chance he would have injury issues coming
34:33off the back of his injury issues
34:35at Blackburn. So you've
34:37got to add two sort of experienced
34:39championship players just to replace what you've already lost.
34:41Simon Moore, I guess,
34:43would be the start of that as the back-up goalkeeper.
34:45But I do definitely, there has definitely
34:47been a shift and definitely recognition that there
34:49needs to be some more championship experience in the
34:51spine of the team. But I still
34:53would be absolutely stunned if Sunderland didn't
34:55have the youngest team in the division again next year.
34:57I just think that's what
34:59the strategy is. That's why they've appointed
35:01Lebris because of his background on that
35:03front. So I don't think anyone
35:05should expect a complete overhaul
35:07or see anything radically different.
35:09But I also think some
35:11lessons have been learned. I do think
35:13people have been listened to a little
35:15bit and I would be surprised if we didn't see
35:17a few faces come through the door who
35:19we kind of know who they are and we're familiar
35:21with them. You know what you're going to get
35:23from them. I think that's probably the most important
35:25thing.
35:27Regis Lebris, he did his
35:29first interview with the club. Phil, what were your
35:31first impressions on the Frenchman? His English
35:33seems pretty good, obviously. Hopefully that
35:35will improve a little bit as well.
35:37Seems like a nice guy, I suppose.
35:39But again, with everything, the
35:41proof is well and truly in the pudding, isn't it?
35:43Yeah, definitely.
35:45There's only so much you can glean from these things.
35:47I think there was a couple of important things.
35:49One was, as you mentioned, his English
35:51was exceptional, really.
35:53For someone who's never actually worked or lived in
35:55England, it was incredibly impressive.
35:57That's obviously reassuring because
35:59not only is it incredibly important
36:01that he can communicate with the dressing room,
36:03it's incredibly important he can communicate
36:05with the supporters. We saw that
36:07even with Michael Bale, really.
36:09We've said on this podcast a few times
36:11we felt that was something that the ownership of
36:13a football hierarchy had underestimated.
36:15How important it was that, yes,
36:17you get a great coach and a great player developer,
36:19but that you get someone
36:21who can communicate with the fans really well.
36:23I was incredibly reassured to see him
36:25speak so eloquently and so impressively.
36:27The only other
36:29things that I really gleaned from it was
36:31he came across as very studious, very calm,
36:33very measured. I think that's
36:35positive because I think managing
36:37Sunderland is a real rollercoaster.
36:39We always say that the highs are kind of
36:41dizzying and the lows are pretty
36:43brutal. He strikes me as someone who
36:45seems to have a pretty calm temperament and
36:47doesn't seem like he's going to get
36:49derailed by that, which I think is
36:51encouraging. Beyond that,
36:53there's clearly very little
36:55you can draw from it.
36:57I enjoyed listening to him. I was encouraged by it.
36:59As you say, the proof
37:01will be very much in the pudding.
37:03Any set-of-face
37:05questions from the media
37:07soon, is he?
37:09Hopefully this week, yes.
37:11Hopefully this week, when that's all finalised,
37:13we'll let people know. I certainly think
37:15by the time Sunderland play their
37:17first game
37:19next Saturday, we'll have definitely heard
37:21from him, but hopefully, yes, sooner rather than later.
37:23Yes, that's the thing
37:25about pre-season. It's slowly creeping up,
37:27isn't it, Phil? Sunderland's first fixture's on the
37:2914th of July. It feels like the summer's
37:31flown by already.
37:33Does it? It feels like
37:35it's gone on for a long time to me.
37:37I think it's
37:39flown by.
37:41It feels like
37:43it's been a long summer for me, but there we go.
37:45It'll be nice.
37:47To be fair, I've had time off,
37:49so that's why it's flown by.
37:51There's the difference then, yes.
37:53It's
37:55always nice when the football comes back.
37:57The pre-season
37:59just brings a little bit of routine
38:01back to it, doesn't it, really?
38:03It's just exciting seeing new players,
38:05seeing what the new ideas for the team's going to be.
38:07It's always
38:09a good time.
38:11As you say, we still have a lot of
38:13unanswered questions, I think, generally,
38:15but it does feel like we've turned the page a little bit.
38:17It feels like 24-25
38:19has started now, doesn't it?
38:21It feels like 23-24 is...
38:23We're not
38:25necessarily over it, but it happened.
38:27Now
38:29it's 24-25.
38:31I love pre-season,
38:33but I remember
38:35sometimes you can't read too much
38:37into it. Well, a lot of the time you can't read too much into it,
38:39can you? I remember being really excited with
38:41Hemiya last season. Thrown it back
38:43to last pre-season, Hemiya, I think it scored
38:45three or four goals, but that didn't
38:47necessarily translate into success
38:49during Sunderland's regular championship season.
38:51It's worth noting
38:53that pre-season isn't everything
38:55if Sunderland lose a couple of games
38:57under a new head coach.
38:59Yeah.
39:01I mean, every season.
39:03They're not actually playing that Hartlepool fixture
39:05this year, are they? But every year
39:07we go to Hartlepool for that last
39:09fixture of the pre-season
39:11schedule a few days before the end of the season.
39:13Every year, Sunderland are terrible.
39:15We're all sort of...
39:17It was 5-2 last season, wasn't it?
39:19In general, it tends not to have
39:21that much of an impact on the season.
39:23You're absolutely right. It's really important
39:25not to get too sucked into
39:27performances.
39:29I remember drawing with Dortmund
39:31under David Moyes and thinking,
39:33this will be great.
39:35That sums it up.
39:37Important not to read too much into it.
39:39At the same time,
39:41I don't think it's not important
39:43in terms of...
39:45I do think it's a really important time to build
39:47a bit of unity and a bit of stability.
39:49We probably didn't fully
39:51appreciate it at the time, even though we had a sense of it
39:53last pre-season. You could
39:55definitely feel, although you mentioned the positive
39:57there, which was Jamier scoring.
39:59You could definitely feel a little bit of the lingering
40:01friction from what had
40:03happened with Mowbray and the Farioli stuff
40:05and all that. I actually don't
40:07think Mowbray was ever quite the same
40:09as he had been around that
40:11West Brom game. I think
40:13that you could definitely sense
40:15a little bit of tension and a little bit
40:17of friction. Ultimately,
40:19Sunderland started
40:21the season with two defeats, but they didn't actually play
40:23that badly. I do feel like the mood
40:25never really lifted fully.
40:27We definitely never recaptured that
40:29feel-good factor that you
40:31ended the season with, or certainly
40:33that spring period.
40:35I do think it's important.
40:37As you say, it's incredibly important we don't get
40:39too caught up if the results aren't good or whatever.
40:41It's probably an important time
40:43in terms of trying to build a bit of a
40:45relationship between the briefs and the supporters,
40:47trying to rebuild that relationship between the team
40:49and the supporters a little bit as well
40:51so that you're really ready to
40:53attack the season.
40:55We probably
40:57didn't fully appreciate it at the time, but it definitely
40:59wasn't quite right last summer, was it?
41:01No, it wasn't. Before
41:03we go, Phil, what are you working on
41:05over on the Sunderland Echo website?
41:07What can fans delve into?
41:09We've both
41:11got plenty of little transfer bits and bobs
41:13haven't we? Not just from
41:15Sunderland, but around the Championship.
41:17Hopefully, there'll be
41:19some exciting contract news. I know you're
41:21going to be all over the academy stuff, aren't you?
41:23There's going to be a lot of deals
41:25announced in the academy.
41:27Still lots of stuff to catch up from yesterday
41:29as well. I did a big piece looking at
41:31basically every player in the squad as
41:33it stands, making
41:35some transfer predictions, who I think might stay,
41:37who I think might go, who might go out on loan,
41:39who I think has got a big pre-season
41:41ahead. That's on my Twitter page
41:43as well. That's definitely one
41:45you can go and catch up with. I've also done
41:47some analysis on Regis
41:49Lebris' first interview as well, which people can read
41:51on the website. There's absolutely
41:53stacks up, isn't there, to be fair,
41:55from the last few days. There's going to be
41:57absolutely loads this week as well.
41:59Definitely keep your eyes peeled on the website
42:01and both of our Twitter feeds
42:03will have stacks of updates for people.
42:05Absolutely. Congratulations
42:07to Tom Lavery as well, the young Sunderland centre-back.
42:09He's just signed his first professional
42:11contract with the club. That'll be on the website
42:13in due course as well.
42:15Thank you to everyone who's tuned in
42:17on YouTube and social media channels.
42:19This podcast will also be available
42:21on all good platforms
42:23and on Freeview and on the radio
42:25as well, the Cat radio station.
42:27Once again, thank you
42:29very much for listening.
42:39Thank you.
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