🎙️ We can't build a sustainable movement if the people building it are burning out.
In this episode of Tangelic Talks, Victoria and TJ sit down with Liz Moyer Benferhat, founder of We Heal for All. After a long career in sustainable development and UN policy, Liz realized the social impact sector was completely ignoring the emotional toll of confronting existential crises.
Liz challenges the cultural taboo around emotions in the workplace, explaining why regulating our nervous systems shouldn't just mean "clamping down" on how we feel. She breaks down why anger is vital organizational data and why accepting periods of "low hope" actually builds maturity and grit.
In This Episode, We Explore:
🧠 Why clinical psychology proves our emotions are packed with intelligence, not just messy burdens.
🔥 How leaders can use anger and grief as organizational data to better support their teams.
⭕ The Circle Model for slowing down and collective healing.
😷 How the pandemic and the BLM movement exposed the urgent need for identity-specific processing spaces.
🛑 The danger of toxic positivity and why you don't always need to feel hopeful to keep working toward change.
🔹 About Our Guest: Liz Moyer Benferhat is the founder of We Heal for All, focusing on emotional resilience, climate psychology, and collective healing for social impact leaders.
💬 Join the Conversation: How do you deal with burnout when the news cycle feels overwhelmingly negative? Drop your thoughts below 👇
🌱 Support the Mission: Find extended guest resources at TangelicLife.org/TangelicTalks.
🔖 #TangelicTalks #EmotionalResilience #ClimatePsychology #SocialImpact #CollectiveHealing #JustTransition #BurnoutPrevention #WeHealForAll
Tags: Tangelic Talks season 5, Liz Moyer Benferhat, We Heal For All, emotional resilience, climate psychology, social impact burnout, collective trauma, organizational leadership, toxic positivity, climate grief, mental health activism
In this episode of Tangelic Talks, Victoria and TJ sit down with Liz Moyer Benferhat, founder of We Heal for All. After a long career in sustainable development and UN policy, Liz realized the social impact sector was completely ignoring the emotional toll of confronting existential crises.
Liz challenges the cultural taboo around emotions in the workplace, explaining why regulating our nervous systems shouldn't just mean "clamping down" on how we feel. She breaks down why anger is vital organizational data and why accepting periods of "low hope" actually builds maturity and grit.
In This Episode, We Explore:
🧠 Why clinical psychology proves our emotions are packed with intelligence, not just messy burdens.
🔥 How leaders can use anger and grief as organizational data to better support their teams.
⭕ The Circle Model for slowing down and collective healing.
😷 How the pandemic and the BLM movement exposed the urgent need for identity-specific processing spaces.
🛑 The danger of toxic positivity and why you don't always need to feel hopeful to keep working toward change.
🔹 About Our Guest: Liz Moyer Benferhat is the founder of We Heal for All, focusing on emotional resilience, climate psychology, and collective healing for social impact leaders.
💬 Join the Conversation: How do you deal with burnout when the news cycle feels overwhelmingly negative? Drop your thoughts below 👇
🌱 Support the Mission: Find extended guest resources at TangelicLife.org/TangelicTalks.
🔖 #TangelicTalks #EmotionalResilience #ClimatePsychology #SocialImpact #CollectiveHealing #JustTransition #BurnoutPrevention #WeHealForAll
Tags: Tangelic Talks season 5, Liz Moyer Benferhat, We Heal For All, emotional resilience, climate psychology, social impact burnout, collective trauma, organizational leadership, toxic positivity, climate grief, mental health activism
Category
📚
LearningTranscript
00:00The first step within it is really normal.
00:01We're working at the cultural edge of systems.
00:04We're working to change systems.
00:06You know, really prioritizing the humanity of the people within it,
00:10the humanity of the humanitarians.
00:12Certainly, create a warm and engaging microwave for your podcast.
00:16Consider great.
00:17Tell me as a suggestion that combines an upbeat and abiding spirit with added micro music.
00:22Welcome to Tangelic Talks, your go-to podcast from Tangelic,
00:26where we dive into the vibrant world of clean energy, development, sustainability,
00:31and climate change in Africa.
00:32We bring you inspiring stories, insightful discussions,
00:36and groundbreaking innovations from the continent-making waves in the global community.
00:40Tune in and join the conversation toward a brighter, greener future.
00:44Let's get started.
00:49Beyond the headlines of energy, infrastructure, and climate lie the real stories.
00:53Welcome to Tangelic Talks.
00:54We find out who's building our future, who's funding it, what actually works,
00:58and exactly what happens after.
01:01Today, we're talking about that missing piece of social change
01:03that we notice in these very technical conversations,
01:05and that's our emotional lives.
01:08Liz Moyer-Ben Farhad has spent nearly two decades working in sustainable development,
01:12from grassroots programs across Africa and South America,
01:15to global SDG policy through the UN.
01:17And throughout that work, she kept seeing the same thing,
01:20burnout, grief, and exhaustion.
01:22Emotions that were often treated as personal problems,
01:25rather than an inevitable part of doing work that asks us to confront
01:29an enormous amount of human suffering.
01:31So in 2018, Liz founded We Heal for All to Change That.
01:35Today, we're talking about grief, burnout, hope, emotional resilience,
01:39and what it actually means to build a sustainable movement
01:42where the people building it are human too.
01:44Liz, welcome to Tangelic Talks.
01:47Thank you so much for having me.
01:49We're really excited.
01:50Honestly, I think it's nice to be able to talk to someone
01:54that understands both this technical side
01:56and how it's eating at us a lot of times.
02:01It's real.
02:02Yeah, it's real.
02:03And I have a true appreciation for the technical side
02:06because we're doing things at scale.
02:08We want to make sure that it's evidence-based, right?
02:10So it's moving away from ideological approaches to solutions
02:14to actually testing what's happening on the ground.
02:17But within all that, yeah, the human dimension of it
02:21can sometimes get lost.
02:23Yeah.
02:23And was there a particular moment when you thought that,
02:26like, oh, we're missing something really fundamental here?
02:29Can you pinpoint it?
02:30Yeah.
02:31You know, it's really a larger theme
02:34in my own journey and professional experience.
02:37It was the feelings, you know, the story that tells it
02:41was the feelings I felt the first time
02:43I learned about extreme poverty
02:44that actually set me on a path of social impact
02:47and sustainable development.
02:49Up until that point, I had been pursuing
02:52more of a psychology, neuroscience-based professional track.
02:57And I was 19, I was in college.
03:00And reading and just really absorbing
03:04this information for the first time,
03:06there was this wave of emotional energy
03:09that came over me.
03:10And I remember thinking to myself,
03:12like, the nerdy psych major within me was like,
03:14whoa, if I can channel this energy in some kind of way,
03:18I could, beyond this, you know,
03:20I could do something to construct it with it.
03:22And so flash forward 15 plus years
03:26into working in the more traditional,
03:28non-profit, international development,
03:31sustainable development sector,
03:32I started to see a gap in terms of
03:35not only conversations and tools
03:38around the emotional dimension of doing this work,
03:42but also even just a lack of acknowledgement.
03:45Yeah.
03:45You know, I think about it sometimes
03:47with doctors who get desensitized to drawing blood
03:51or nurses who get desensitized to drawing blood.
03:53Me personally, drawing blood, no.
03:56No, I look away.
03:57I'm going to do this.
03:59I'm going to look better.
04:00You got to lock me down.
04:01But, you know, again,
04:02it's a technical skill that they get desensitized to.
04:05And that's a good thing.
04:07For us, we're talking about existential topics here, right?
04:12We're talking about famine.
04:13We're talking about war.
04:15We're talking about the livability of our earth.
04:18And without that recognition of just what that does to us,
04:24and even the recognition that it is our inner world,
04:27it's our values, right?
04:30What we want to see more of in the world.
04:31It's our morals.
04:32It's our visions of what's possible
04:34that are also just central to us
04:36showing up and entering this work.
04:39We really missed an opportunity
04:41to not only sustain ourselves,
04:44not only nourish ourselves,
04:45but also to really kind of actualize the potential
04:50within really being innovative,
04:52really being creative,
04:53really making sure that we're not only taking
04:56a whole systems approach to the design of our programs,
04:59but also a whole systems approach
05:01to the development of us as leaders and change makers.
05:05Definitely.
05:06Especially because if humans are at the center of the movement,
05:10if, you know, if you can't function,
05:12the movement isn't really going to go anywhere, right?
05:17Right.
05:17That's absolutely right.
05:19Yeah.
05:20I mean, from what you're saying,
05:21it sounds like caring itself is a source of suffering, right?
05:25And most people that work in this space care a lot,
05:28but that also can lead to all the things
05:30that you're talking about with burnout
05:31and feeling this overwhelm of the existential dread
05:35that is climate change.
05:36But then there's the other side where,
05:38well, there is an opportunity here for me to do something
05:41that's very motivating, right?
05:42We had a guest last season who said,
05:45well, if you're angry, channel that.
05:47Like, we don't get to just be passive.
05:49We need to be angry and do, you know, use that as fuel.
05:55Yeah, absolutely.
05:57And what is so exciting to me is that we live in this time
06:02where the fields of clinical psychology and neuroscience
06:05are teaching us more and more about what emotions are
06:08and how to understand them and how to work with them.
06:12You know, we, I'll speak for myself,
06:16but, you know, there's a lot of cultural taboo around emotions.
06:21You know, thinking that they're messy,
06:23they get in the way, we need to, you know,
06:25the biggest conversation is around regulating our emotions,
06:28which is an amazing skill set that definitely everyone needs.
06:32But even within that conversation,
06:33there can be an undertone of,
06:37okay, we just got to control them.
06:38Yeah.
06:38We got to clamp them down, right?
06:40Like a regulated nervous system
06:42is a calm nervous system kind of a thing,
06:44which just isn't actually the case.
06:46Instead, what we're learning from these fields
06:48is that emotions are packed with intelligence.
06:51They're not here to overwhelm and derail us.
06:54They're actually here to help us at a baseline survive,
06:58but then also possibly thrive
07:00and adapt to changes in our environment.
07:04So becoming really angry about a budget cut,
07:08feeling really angry about a policy being passed in DC, right?
07:13And not only is something that we need to just deal with
07:17so we can get back to work,
07:18but it's also something that's revealing to us information
07:24about our values, about what's important to us.
07:27And so for anger, for instance,
07:30it protects its resources.
07:32You know, you can think of mama bear protecting her cub, right?
07:35When you get angry, right, you get big, you know?
07:38And so we can start to work with that emotional experiences,
07:43those emotional experiences,
07:45and even see them as within an organizational setting,
07:48as organizational data even in some ways,
07:51being like, okay, what am I as a leader right now experiencing?
07:55What's my team experiencing?
07:57And instead of seeing it as like a burden
08:00that we got to deal with,
08:01it can actually be reframed as an asset to work with.
08:06And it is so important.
08:08And one of my questions was going to be
08:11what does success look like
08:13when you're working with individuals,
08:14when you're working with companies?
08:15And I think you've answered that partly
08:18in terms of trying to maybe show that
08:21how emotions can be controlled,
08:23but also they're important
08:24and they tell you how you are feeling deep down.
08:27But I also wanted to ask as well,
08:30when you're working in terms of people,
08:32whether it's dealing with mental health,
08:34helping them in terms of emotion,
08:36I saw that grief was a big thing
08:37that was touched on.
08:39A lot of the time,
08:40we know that there's low and high points.
08:43So maybe after a few months,
08:45people can return back to that emotion.
08:47So how do you help some of the people
08:50and the companies that you work with
08:51deal with them?
08:52What are the systems in place there?
08:54Yeah, thank you for the question
08:56because it's such a good one.
08:57You know, the first step within it
09:00is really normalizing the fact
09:02that there are ups and downs
09:03and that comes with grief.
09:06It comes with disappointment.
09:08It comes with low points
09:10as well as high points.
09:11And I think it's especially so
09:13within the public sector
09:15or within mission-driven organizations
09:17that we're really at the cultural edge,
09:21right?
09:21We're working at the cultural edge of systems.
09:24We're working to change systems.
09:27So, you know,
09:29really prioritizing the humanity
09:32of the people within it,
09:33the humanity of the humanitarians, right?
09:36The humanity of the helpers themselves.
09:38And it starts with first,
09:41just acknowledging that that's the case.
09:44Acknowledging that our hearts
09:46are inexplicably tied to this work
09:49and to what's going on.
09:51And then from an organizational perspective,
09:55it doesn't need to be big and splashy.
09:57You know, supporting the emotional well-being
09:59of your people can look as simple
10:02as, you know, taking 10 minutes
10:04at the beginning of a team meeting
10:05to just name how tough a current event is
10:09or name how tough a recent budget loss was.
10:11As a team member,
10:13it can look like just checking in
10:14on your people, right?
10:16Or if you do know that something challenging
10:19is happening for the organization,
10:21or something challenging
10:22is happening in the world,
10:23giving each other a little extra grace
10:25if, you know,
10:26they take a little bit longer
10:27to respond to an email.
10:29You know, emotions really like safety
10:33and they like to know
10:34that they're not going to be judged
10:35or used against them.
10:37And so as a leader, right,
10:39from a leadership perspective
10:40to developing your own emotional intelligence,
10:46your own emotional skill set,
10:48and then bringing that into the workplace
10:50helps to signal,
10:52okay, it's okay to be human here.
10:55Now, of course, we still need to get stuff done.
10:57We still need to keep things moving.
10:58So it's not necessarily about
11:02sitting down together for hours at a time
11:04and, you know,
11:06pouring our souls out to each other.
11:07Maybe it is for the organization too,
11:10but, you know, maybe it's not.
11:12You know, this is really an interesting,
11:14again, cultural edge
11:16that organizations are working with
11:18of being like,
11:19okay, so we understand
11:20that emotions are important.
11:22We understand that emotional intelligence
11:23and emotional well-being is important,
11:25but now how do we integrate that
11:28into the way that we operate
11:29as professional organization?
11:32You know, so it's all very interesting,
11:36but the way that I work with people
11:38is that it doesn't have to be big and splashy.
11:40It's actually around integrating it
11:42into the culture of the organization
11:45and also helping people recognize
11:49where it's most appropriate to get support.
11:52You know, is it most appropriate
11:53to get support with inside the organization
11:55or outside the organization?
11:58This is, you know, a separate example,
12:00but in the instance of a school,
12:03you know, I'm thinking about a school
12:04here in the U.S.
12:06If there is a mass tragedy,
12:08like a mass shooting
12:09or something like that,
12:10then maybe it is appropriate
12:11to hold vigils
12:13and to have kind of community-based
12:17emotional processing groups set up
12:19to be able to support teachers,
12:22support parents, support students.
12:24But if it's about, again,
12:26just working inside challenging,
12:29at times, broken systems,
12:31then it will probably look
12:32a little bit different.
12:34Definitely.
12:35Does this tie into the circle model
12:37you've developed for processing emotions
12:40and experiences?
12:42Yeah, the circle model
12:44that I've developed
12:46and have been learning from
12:48and experimenting with
12:50is the main social technology,
12:52if you will,
12:53that I use for this work.
12:55And it is steeped in, again,
12:58the science of emotions
12:59and how we know emotions work
13:01in the mind and body.
13:02So it uses practices
13:04like slowing down,
13:06right?
13:07Which is no small feat
13:08in a mass-paced crazy world,
13:11right?
13:12Just even supporting people
13:13to slow down
13:13and doing it in a trauma-centered way,
13:16doing it in a way
13:17that doesn't expect people
13:21to be able to just immediately drop in
13:23and shift states, right?
13:25It's really how do you support people
13:26to move from,
13:27you know,
13:28finishing off that last email
13:30or, you know,
13:31putting your kids to bed
13:32or whatever it might be
13:33and actually support
13:35the mind and body
13:35to slow down.
13:37It uses awareness-based
13:38and contemplative-based techniques,
13:41so meditation
13:41to support people
13:42to not only connect
13:44with themselves,
13:45but even set up
13:47observation of self.
13:49Yeah.
13:49It's mindfulness of self.
13:52And then it's a lot of sharing.
13:54I use the term storytelling,
13:56but really I think
13:57it can be a little misleading
13:59because it doesn't need
14:00to have a clear beginning,
14:02middle, and end.
14:02It's really around
14:05giving space and support
14:06to parts of ourselves
14:08that are in need
14:09as it relates to the world,
14:11as it relates to changes
14:12in ourselves,
14:12just things that were going on
14:14in our lives.
14:15And this really helps,
14:16you know,
14:17with collective issues,
14:18with climate change,
14:20with climate injustice,
14:21with systems change,
14:22all of these big topics,
14:24you know,
14:24they are collective topics.
14:26So they're happening
14:27within the body of society.
14:29And so while this emotional support
14:33can,
14:34and emotional processing work
14:36can absolutely be done
14:37one-on-one, right?
14:38It can be done on your own.
14:39It can absolutely be done
14:40with, you know,
14:41an emotionally safe other,
14:42a therapist,
14:43a friend, a partner.
14:45There's something really powerful
14:46that happens in a group setting.
14:48It's almost like
14:49the collective container
14:50supports processing
14:53of collective issues.
14:55Because, you know,
14:57none of us have
14:57all the answers
14:58on this stuff.
14:59We all have wisdom
15:01to offer within it.
15:02And it's a way
15:03to actually co-learn
15:05in that sense.
15:07Okay.
15:08Yeah.
15:08No, you're right.
15:09And one thing
15:10I wanted to pick on
15:11is you mentioning culture.
15:13And I can imagine
15:15that you work
15:15with a variety
15:16of different types
15:17of individuals
15:18and sectors
15:20and characteristics.
15:21So the work culture
15:22in one company
15:23to another company
15:24can be different.
15:25An individual
15:25can be different
15:26whether it's religion,
15:28whether it's gender,
15:29whether it's preferences.
15:31So how would you
15:32maybe balance
15:32the different types
15:34of entities
15:34and people
15:35that you're working with
15:37and given the therapy
15:38or solution
15:38that is needed there?
15:41Yeah.
15:41It's honestly
15:43a part of this work
15:44that I enjoy the most
15:46because we were chatting
15:48about this very briefly
15:49before we started
15:50the recording.
15:52I'm of the mind
15:53that it's not
15:54that we need
15:54more solutions
15:55around climate change.
15:57We don't need
15:58more knowledge.
15:59We don't need
16:00more urgency.
16:01It's more that we need
16:03to support people
16:04with what they already have,
16:06support people
16:08with their care,
16:09support people
16:10with their awareness.
16:11And that looks
16:13very different
16:13for each person
16:15depending on
16:15who they are,
16:16where they sit
16:17in the world,
16:18and then even
16:19their own orientation.
16:21You know,
16:21an interesting factoid
16:23that I always keep
16:24in my back pocket
16:25is that
16:26similar to other kinds
16:27of intelligences
16:28and orientations,
16:29emotional sensitivity
16:31falls on a spectrum.
16:33So there's some
16:34of us who are
16:35just naturally born
16:36more emotionally
16:37receptive and sensitive
16:38and then others
16:39of us who are
16:39more emotionally stoic.
16:42And either of these
16:43are good or bad,
16:45right?
16:46It's just kind of
16:47the...
16:47And then, you know,
16:47on the other end,
16:48there's, you know,
16:49your resident sociopaths
16:50who don't feel anything,
16:52right?
16:52You know,
16:52but there's really
16:54a spectrum,
16:55you know?
16:55And so meeting people
16:58where they are
16:59and, you know,
17:01I can think back
17:01to my own journey.
17:03You know,
17:04I very much
17:06started my journey
17:07in this work
17:07as,
17:08and not collective
17:08healing work,
17:09but in my
17:10sustainable development
17:11social impact work
17:12of being a very
17:12fiery activist.
17:14You know,
17:15being like,
17:15why are we not
17:16all flipping tables
17:19and what,
17:20you know,
17:20just so angry
17:21and so being like,
17:22why can't everyone
17:23see this,
17:25right?
17:25Maybe if I shout louder,
17:26they'll see it better.
17:27Maybe if I put it
17:28in their faces,
17:29you know,
17:30more fully,
17:31then they'll actually
17:32take action.
17:33And what we're learning
17:36from the fields
17:36of trauma psychology,
17:38from social movement
17:39spaces,
17:40and from actually
17:41just a climate psychology
17:42or,
17:42like,
17:44climate communications work
17:46has done a lot
17:47of really powerful
17:48work on this too,
17:49of how do we
17:50actually
17:52cultivate the
17:53political will
17:55to move forward
17:56on these policies.
17:57And for a lot of people,
17:59it isn't apathy,
18:01right?
18:01It's not that people
18:02don't care.
18:03It's that they don't know
18:04what to do with that care.
18:05You know,
18:06it overwhelms them.
18:08And so,
18:09for me,
18:09I always hold that
18:10in the back of my mind
18:11and then recognize
18:13that that can look
18:14very different,
18:14and it does look
18:15very different
18:16for all of us.
18:17You know,
18:18for some people,
18:20is more of a,
18:22I don't want to say apathy,
18:23but kind of a tuning it out,
18:25right?
18:25Being like,
18:26oh,
18:27I'm not even going
18:28to deal with it.
18:28I'm going to go
18:29and handle this.
18:31For other people,
18:32it is a hypervigilance,
18:34right?
18:34They come so overwhelmed
18:36with it,
18:36they just spin their wheels,
18:37spin their wheels.
18:38And so,
18:40keeping that in mind
18:41and then even having,
18:42for me,
18:44a kind of table
18:46of different categories
18:47and I actually include it
18:48in my book,
18:49just different ways
18:50that people cope
18:52and ways that that looks
18:53and then ultimately
18:55the intelligence
18:56underneath it.
18:57You know,
18:57because all of these
18:58coping mechanisms,
18:59they have,
19:01they're trying to keep us safe,
19:02right?
19:03They're trying to keep us safe,
19:04they're trying to protect us
19:05in some kind of way.
19:06And so,
19:07knowing that is actually
19:08then the entry point
19:09to be able to connect
19:10with them
19:11and help them,
19:14help them.
19:15Yeah.
19:16Yeah.
19:16And I guess it gets
19:18a bit sticky
19:18because a lot of times
19:19when we're talking about
19:20healing
19:21and sort of accepting
19:22our emotions,
19:23we can get a bit complacent.
19:26And a lot of people
19:27see emotional resilience
19:28as,
19:29oh,
19:29just keep going,
19:30you can do it
19:31type thing.
19:32I don't know
19:33if you've got
19:33your own definition
19:35of what emotional resilience
19:36looks like.
19:36And then,
19:37in this political
19:38will conversation,
19:39how do we use that
19:41to keep people engaged
19:42with difficult systems
19:44and not just saying,
19:45oh,
19:46I feel better about it
19:47because I've dealt with it
19:48and it can keep going.
19:51A hundred percent.
19:52Now,
19:53you know,
19:54resilience is a great word
19:56in many ways
19:57because there's a larger
19:58cultural conversation
19:59going on around it.
20:01But resilience to me
20:02also implies
20:03just returning back
20:05to something
20:06or bouncing back
20:08to normal.
20:10and really
20:11what there is
20:13more of an opportunity
20:14for is transformation
20:17through healing.
20:19And again,
20:20healing is such
20:20a big word too.
20:21You know,
20:22it can be very poetic.
20:24It can be,
20:24again,
20:25I really root it
20:26in the science
20:27of emotions
20:28and how,
20:30again,
20:30if we go back
20:31to that definition
20:32that emotions
20:33are evolutionarily
20:35baked into us
20:36to help us adapt
20:37and help us respond
20:39to changes
20:39in our environment,
20:41they can actually
20:42reveal to us
20:43what we need,
20:44when we need it
20:45and why we need it.
20:46And so,
20:47in that way,
20:48working with
20:49what we're feeling,
20:50working with the fog
20:52or moral confusion
20:53or grappling
20:54can actually help us
20:56come out
20:57onto the other side
20:58better resourced
20:59and also
21:00with new insights
21:01about what
21:02our role is
21:04to play,
21:04for instance,
21:05or even what
21:07something like
21:08inclusion means
21:10to me personally
21:11in practice.
21:12Yeah.
21:13Right?
21:13Because we have
21:14these big loaded words
21:15that are amazing
21:16and they're annoying stars
21:17and they're alive
21:18and do the things
21:19that we do
21:19and to actually
21:21embody those
21:22and live those
21:23and bring those
21:24into practice
21:25in this highly
21:26confusing,
21:27complicated world
21:27and this world
21:28that's changing
21:29fast and full
21:30of uncertainty
21:31is an ongoing
21:32process.
21:33Yeah.
21:34You know,
21:34it's an ongoing
21:35dance,
21:36you know,
21:37and so actually
21:39creating space
21:41for that dance
21:42and how it's
21:43showing up
21:44for each of us
21:44uniquely
21:45then helps
21:46not us to like
21:47return back to,
21:48okay,
21:48now I,
21:49you know,
21:49I'm back to where
21:50I was before
21:51of actually being like,
21:52okay,
21:52what am I evolving
21:53into?
21:54What am I now
21:55stepping into?
21:57Right.
21:58Now it's
22:00that word
22:01you mentioned
22:02just in inclusion
22:03and basically
22:04just having
22:05an understanding
22:06of what you want
22:07to do
22:07and I brought
22:08a few times
22:09up
22:10Tangeric Talks
22:10in terms of
22:11the pandemic
22:12and how things
22:13have changed
22:13but I think
22:14it's really important
22:14for what we're
22:15talking about
22:16right now
22:16that I noticed
22:17that WeHealth
22:19started around
22:192019
22:21so I think
22:22it'll be really
22:23interesting to learn
22:23about how
22:25your clients
22:26and how people
22:27changed
22:27when you were
22:28working with them
22:28into 2019
22:29and then after
22:30the pandemic
22:30did people
22:31start to
22:32take more
22:33account of
22:34that inclusion
22:35that emotional
22:36resilience that
22:37they need
22:37and just
22:38needing more
22:39help
22:40what was the
22:41changes that
22:41you maybe saw
22:42there
22:42if there were
22:43any changes
22:43oh yeah
22:44100%
22:45yeah such a
22:46great question
22:46again
22:46because
22:47it
22:47you know
22:48when I started
22:49doing this work
22:49a big focus
22:51of my work
22:51was actually
22:52on climate
22:52climate psychology
22:53because there's
22:54such a rich
22:55conversation going
22:56on around that
22:57and so
22:58for a while
22:59there I was
23:00mostly working
23:01on climate
23:02and supporting
23:02people around
23:03climate
23:03and I actually
23:05used my mom
23:05as a litmus test
23:06for this work
23:07when I first
23:08started she was
23:09like I don't
23:10get it you're
23:10passionate about
23:11it go for it
23:12kind of a thing
23:13you know
23:13the pandemic
23:14hit and she
23:15was like oh
23:16okay I get
23:17this a bit more
23:18and now just
23:19within the
23:19last five
23:20plus years
23:21of the amount
23:22of political
23:23geopolitical turmoil
23:25going on
23:25in the world
23:27within my home
23:28country here
23:28in the US
23:29more and more
23:30people are
23:31recognizing the
23:33need for something
23:33like this
23:34I'll talk with
23:35folks who
23:36aren't in the
23:37social impact
23:38space who
23:39aren't even
23:40maybe adjacent
23:40to it and
23:41they're like oh
23:42yeah you know
23:42I had a client
23:43come in just
23:43the other day
23:44who was talking
23:46about just how
23:46much the news
23:47inundates them
23:48and I think
23:50the pandemic
23:50specifically
23:51and just so
23:53it was just
23:54such a tough
23:55time full of
23:56collective trauma
23:57right
23:58collective trauma
23:59in real time
24:00and then also
24:01even being in
24:03such a tender
24:03place
24:04historical traumas
24:06right
24:07intergenerational
24:08traumas
24:09really coming
24:10to the surface
24:11more
24:11and so
24:13finding ways
24:14to support
24:15people with
24:16kind of layers
24:17of their
24:18experience
24:18definitely became
24:20more a focus
24:22for me
24:23in my work
24:24and it was
24:27also a real
24:27question for me
24:28and I'm thinking
24:29about particularly
24:30the Black Lives
24:30Matter movement
24:31here in the US
24:32and globally
24:33and just
24:34you know there
24:35was you know
24:36me as a
24:37white-bodied
24:38woman you know
24:38there was a
24:39lot of
24:41conversations
24:41a lot of
24:42anxiety
24:42for white folks
24:44around like
24:44okay how do
24:45we do this
24:46how do we
24:46show up
24:46please just
24:47tell me what
24:47to do
24:47tell me what
24:48to do
24:48tell me what
24:48to learn
24:50and the
24:51need that I
24:52found or the
24:52gap that I
24:53was seeing
24:53was a lack
24:55of space
24:55to actually
24:56process and
24:57digest that
24:59right
24:59actually process
25:00and digest
25:00in order to
25:02figure out
25:03and you know
25:04identity
25:04specific spaces
25:07like this are
25:08so important
25:09and key
25:09you know
25:10in terms of
25:11safety in
25:11terms of
25:12you know
25:13but yeah
25:14you know how
25:15to actually
25:15process and
25:16digest that
25:16and come up
25:17with your
25:18own answers
25:19if you will
25:20of like okay
25:20what does this
25:21actually mean
25:22to me and
25:23how am I
25:23actually going
25:23to bring this
25:24into my
25:24life and
25:25so yeah
25:27there was a
25:27lot of work
25:29that came out
25:29of that and
25:30a lot of
25:32you know
25:32it was I
25:33see this work
25:34for myself
25:35personally as
25:36there's a
25:38spiritual component
25:39to it for me
25:40you know
25:41if you don't
25:41mind me speaking
25:42in those terms
25:43and so it
25:45was like
25:45I'm a couple
25:46years into this
25:47work and
25:47boom the
25:48pandemic hits
25:49all right
25:49let's level up
25:50let's keep
25:51growing you
25:52know transforming
25:52and evolving
25:53right now
25:54what is the
25:55what is the
25:56new need here
25:57and how is
25:57this work
25:59asking me to
26:00level up as
26:01a practitioner
26:01and as
26:03somebody who's
26:04offering this
26:06definitely
26:07and I feel
26:08like you
26:09know you
26:09the example
26:10of COVID
26:10Black Lives
26:11Matter and
26:12even in the
26:12wider conversation
26:13of climate
26:14change is very
26:14bleak right
26:15and the work
26:16that you do
26:17really helps
26:17us deal with
26:18that but also
26:20sometimes hope
26:21is just
26:22unfathomable
26:23like we see
26:24some headlines
26:25and we're like
26:25yeah nah
26:26like this isn't
26:27going anywhere
26:28and I just
26:29wonder if
26:29sometimes we
26:30can work
26:30towards change
26:31without always
26:31feeling hopeful
26:32is there something
26:33there about
26:34accepting this
26:35emotion that
26:35we have
26:36and still
26:36being able
26:37to push
26:37through it
26:39I love that
26:40yeah I
26:41absolutely love
26:41that framing
26:42and I love
26:42that question
26:43because hope
26:44to me it can
26:46feel a little
26:48toxic positivity
26:49oriented right
26:51just gotta stay
26:51hopeful just gotta
26:52rise above
26:53kind of a thing
26:54and I recently
26:56had a conversation
26:57with a dear
26:58friend and we
26:59were landing
27:00on you know
27:01this term hope
27:02and what it
27:03means and
27:04what we
27:05talked about
27:06is how you
27:06know actually
27:07times of not
27:07feeling hopeful
27:09can actually
27:10be just as
27:13valuable in
27:14terms of
27:16returning back
27:17to senses of
27:18possibility
27:18you know if we
27:20think about
27:20going through
27:21life in terms
27:22of cycles
27:23right there's
27:23highs and
27:24lows in our
27:25lives there's
27:26highs and
27:26lows within a
27:27society right
27:28collectively speaking
27:29right we know
27:30civilizations
27:31downs you
27:33know and
27:34so being in
27:35a period of
27:36down when
27:37we do return
27:39back to
27:40because you
27:40know it's
27:41always moving
27:41everything's
27:42always moving
27:42everything's
27:43always moving
27:43in our lives
27:44everything's
27:44always moving
27:45within our
27:46societies and
27:47so returning
27:48to a new
27:49stage of
27:50feeling hopeful
27:50or feeling
27:51possibility or
27:52feeling that
27:53spark of like
27:53okay I
27:54actually feel
27:54some energy
27:55here that
27:56lower point
27:57can actually
27:58which is like
27:59full of kind
27:59of grit right
28:00it's full of
28:01being like okay
28:03I gotta figure
28:03out how to
28:04keep going
28:04you know I
28:05gotta figure
28:06out how to
28:06you know move
28:08forward with
28:08this next part
28:09of the day
28:09kind of thing
28:10like I'll just
28:11keep making
28:11soup and
28:12finding you
28:13know whatever
28:13it is to
28:14help you get
28:15by and keep
28:16moving that
28:17can actually
28:18be a nice
28:19balancing it's
28:21almost like a
28:21maturity right
28:22that you can
28:23bring with you
28:24to this next
28:26stage of things
28:26where it's like
28:27okay yeah I'm
28:28feeling hopeful
28:28but I'm
28:29grounded because
28:30I know that
28:32this isn't
28:33going to just
28:34be all rainbows
28:34and sunshine
28:35right I know
28:36that there are
28:38going to be
28:38highs and lows
28:39in this process
28:40so there's
28:42almost a way
28:42to like hold
28:43it a little
28:43bit more
28:44equally a little
28:44bit more
28:45equanimity in
28:46your relationship
28:47with it
28:49no no very
28:50true it's like
28:51you said at
28:51the start it's
28:52there's highs and
28:53lows so it's
28:53about being
28:54realistic right
28:55not and it's
28:56like you said
28:57sometimes we
28:58do see just
28:59negative news
29:00but there's
29:00also a lot
29:01of positive
29:02positivity in
29:03the world as
29:04we speak and
29:04so now I
29:05think that's
29:05so important
29:07maybe one of
29:08my last
29:08questions just
29:09to ask so
29:11you did talk
29:12about some
29:13of the group
29:13healings that
29:14you do in
29:15terms of those
29:15group healing
29:16spaces also
29:18noted that you've
29:19done a few
29:19different courses
29:20and you have
29:21meditations
29:23that help as
29:24well for the
29:25various people
29:25that you're
29:26working with
29:26love to just
29:27get in more
29:28detail about
29:28how some of
29:29them can help
29:30people in
29:31visual as a
29:31group as
29:32all yeah so
29:34the circle model
29:35is my main
29:36social technology
29:37and then I
29:38offer a training
29:39to support people
29:40to take that
29:41model make it
29:42their own and
29:43then bring it
29:43to their people
29:44so whether in
29:45an organizational
29:46setting or their
29:47communities library
29:49school and so
29:51those are kind of
29:52my bread and
29:52butter and then I
29:54published a book
29:55this past
29:55October which
29:57is also I'm
29:58like in the
29:58season of birth
29:59of a three-year-old
29:59daughter another
30:00baby on the
30:01way and this
30:02book thank you
30:04so much thanks
30:04so yeah so my
30:07focus more recently
30:08has been on this
30:09book I'm about to
30:10put out the
30:10audiobook version
30:11of it too which
30:12I had the pleasure
30:14of self-narrating
30:14but my courses
30:16yeah are there
30:18there's the
30:19training self-paced
30:20so you can take
30:21it and make it
30:22your own my
30:24meditations are
30:25part of my
30:26sub stack and a
30:27monthly rhythm of
30:28content that I
30:29put out on
30:30collective healing
30:31and social change
30:32and emotional
30:33related topics and
30:36so in that I
30:37offer up
30:37reflections I
30:39offer up
30:39conversations with
30:40other helpers and
30:42change makers and
30:43folks who are doing
30:44this work and
30:44working at this
30:45intersection of
30:46inner and outer
30:47transformation and
30:50then I also have
30:51done workshops and
30:52retreats in the
30:53past which are
30:54always so
30:55enjoyable you know
30:57really being in
30:57person with folks
30:58is always so nice
31:00that's really nice
31:01but we're gonna make
31:02sure to include that
31:03on the blog section
31:04and we'll be staying
31:06on with you a bit
31:06longer to sort of
31:08get deeper into
31:09some subjects that
31:10me and TJ are very
31:12curious about so you
31:14can check that all
31:15out at
31:15angeliclife.org
31:16and I just want to
31:17close out the episode
31:18with a piece of
31:20advice from you
31:21because it's rare
31:23when you get to
31:24talk to someone
31:24that's as open as
31:25you are with all
31:26the knowledge that
31:27you've got in your
31:28space if there was
31:30someone who wanted
31:31to dedicate their
31:32career to changing
31:33the world without
31:34losing themselves in
31:36the process without
31:37you know losing
31:38their identity
31:38because this
31:39conversation can feel
31:40quite jarring when
31:41you're like yeah I've
31:42got all this energy
31:43but I'm gonna burn
31:44out like what what
31:46would you do that
31:47exactly what would
31:48you tell them
31:49what's that thing
31:49that kind of holds
31:50you down that
31:51grounds you
31:53yeah
31:56for me it's been a
31:57shift away from
31:59needing to change
32:01things needing to
32:02take action and
32:04more an orientation
32:05towards just wanting
32:07to participate and
32:09wanting to show up
32:10you know wanting to
32:11live my values in a
32:13way that feels
32:14authentic and that
32:16connects me with
32:18work and
32:19conversations and
32:20communities and
32:21people that align
32:24with me in those
32:25ways right that are
32:27life-giving in those
32:28ways and so the
32:31piece of advice that
32:32I'd offer is that
32:34this work looks
32:35different for each
32:36of us and that's a
32:37good thing and
32:39really finding what
32:41works for you is
32:43the key to it
32:44you know I can
32:46think to you
32:47know before
32:48starting we heal
32:49for all I was
32:49working in a UN
32:50think tank you
32:52know I was
32:52traveling I was
32:54doing all of this
32:55badass I hope I
32:56can swear to all
32:57this cool stuff you
32:58know what I mean
32:59and my resume right
33:00it was powerful it
33:01was strong you
33:02know but it was
33:04making me gray you
33:05know it was really
33:06kind of sucking the
33:07life force out of
33:08me and I was
33:09eating takeout all
33:10the time I was
33:11just kind of
33:12self-soothing in
33:13ways that didn't
33:15actually give me
33:16life and really
33:19recognizing that and
33:20then also
33:21prioritizing or
33:23creating more
33:24space in my life to
33:26fill up my own
33:26cup and really
33:27figure out okay
33:28where within this
33:30large web of
33:32work and this
33:33large network of
33:34people doing
33:35awesome stuff and
33:36having awesome
33:37conversations am I
33:38best suited to be
33:39in and then
33:40finding ways to
33:42get myself there
33:43that's so nice
33:44thank you for
33:45opening up about
33:45that and thank
33:47you so much for
33:47being on Tangelic
33:48Talks as always
33:49guys check out
33:50the Q&A on
33:51TangelicLife.org
33:52and we'll catch
33:53you on the next
33:53one bye
33:54bye
33:56bye
34:01let's stop
34:02power
34:03let's stop
34:04change
34:05for rural
34:06lights to
34:06brighter days
34:08equity rising
34:10voices strong
34:11we're building
34:12tomorrow where
34:13we all belong
34:15Tangelic talks
34:17energy equity
34:18pride in power
34:20in the world
34:20side by side
34:22a spark becomes
34:23a fire
34:24a vision
34:25that's true
34:25together we rise
34:27it starts with
34:28you
34:29oh
34:29oh
34:30oh
34:31oh
34:31oh
34:31oh
34:32oh
34:32oh
34:32oh
34:32oh
34:33oh
34:33oh
34:33oh
34:34oh
34:34oh
34:34oh
34:34oh
34:34oh
34:34oh
34:35oh
34:35oh
34:35oh
34:35oh
34:35oh
34:35oh