- 9 minutes ago
Catch up with all the latest political news across the county with Meghan Shaw.
This week we were joined by the leader of Medway Council, Vince Maple for Labour and Co-operation, and Canterbury Parish Councillor James Hodgkinson.
This week we were joined by the leader of Medway Council, Vince Maple for Labour and Co-operation, and Canterbury Parish Councillor James Hodgkinson.
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TVTranscript
00:23Welcome to the Kent Politics Show here on KNTV and I'm Megan Shaw and Kent is no longer
00:29thinking about who will lead its four new unitary authorities as local government
00:34reorganisation has been paused as plans undergo legal reviews according to local
00:40government minister Angela Rayner but will Kent ever get its council shake up and
00:45what about its smaller councils but first let's take a look at some of the
00:49reaction from Kent's politicians it's been months of maps money and meetings
00:55now all frozen by a new government announcement I have also decided mr
01:01speaker to conduct a full review of the local government reorganisation program
01:06including the decisions that were announced in July of this year it was in
01:11July when the government chose to redraw council boundaries in Kent to four large
01:17yintry councils which would have seen the 14 councils currently in operation scrapped
01:23in 2028 now with these same plans going under further review councillors are left
01:30all over the map and what does that even mean pause is it meaning ending yeah I
01:37don't think these civil servants and government ministers realized just how
01:41much work has been put into it million pounds of taxpayers money has been spent on
01:47a process that the government has now pressed pause on for Kent leaving us in
01:51limbo again other authorities have been cancelled completely in Kent we're still
01:56under review whatever that means you know it's absolutely disgraceful for the
02:00government to treat that the country's largest local authority which is what
02:04Kent is in such a shoddy careless way time will tell how quickly we'll move to
02:10local government reorganization but there could be no doubt it was a surprise
02:13announcement I wasn't expecting to see that on Monday and disappointing because I
02:18think rightfully people have been planning and getting ready for those elections which
02:22are scheduled for next May we'll still have elections next May as we always would
02:25have done they'll continue now to be for Medway council and of course the other districts
02:30and boroughs across the region of Kent and Medway four counties who have previously
02:34submitted judicial reviews have had their LGR plans withdrawn though Kent's plans are paused
02:41indefinitely along with 13 other counties some councillors are more certain than others that Kent will
02:49ever see an end to its two-tier council system you're confident local government reorganization will
02:56eventually come to Kent absolutely I think government have been very clear on their long-term ambitions
03:02to remove the two-tier system of local government none of us are any the wiser which I think is
03:08disgraceful because we have got a council to run things seem to hang in the balance even more for
03:13parish councillors as reviews into whether parish and town councils will need to change for a post-LGI
03:20Kent are already in process canterbury published its response for the first time and recommended a
03:28community council in Whitstable and a town council in Herm Bay so my question is whether those things are
03:35going to be continued now because people are not going to be materially further away from their
03:39representatives than they were a year ago two years ago and so again it is that uncertainty the government
03:45understands the amount of work the councils have already put into these new boundary lines but for
03:52all of Kent's councillors it seems the work is far from over Megan Shaw in Kent and here with me
04:00now is
04:01the leader of medway council Vince maple for labour and cooperative and councillor James Hodgkinson vice
04:07chairman of upper hadras parish council as well as the chairman of the kent association of local
04:12councils in canterbury vince i'll come to you first your frustration was quite clear there but isn't it
04:20all a bit embarrassing really well look it's quite clear and we heard the news on monday government's
04:25received some legal advice and look if you're receiving that legal advice you have to act on it
04:31in my view so they've done the right thing they've been clear they're talking about a rapid review
04:36they've talked about actually coming back shortly after the parliamentary recess for conferences so
04:42that would probably be mid-october and certainly i've had a couple of conversations with minister
04:47jim mcmahon this week and it's quite clear to me that this is a pause this isn't a scrapping this
04:52isn't a withdrawing this is a pause and i think from my perspective of course it is frustrating that
04:58we can't get on with the schedule that we had originally planned up to and including monday
05:02but you know i'd rather have a plan which was legally compliant and if that takes just a little
05:08bit longer that's the right thing to do i mean it is a pause it's also a delay and the
05:13kent county
05:14council leader lindon came carrying estimated there a million pounds has been spent on this so far
05:20and it does seem to hang in the balances how much kind of money is made with council also spent
05:25on
05:25this for something that again we're still not sure if this will actually happen well we would have
05:30spent money primarily actually in officer time uh but of course some of this is quite senior offices
05:36including our chief executive our chief legal officer chief finance officer and others so yes there
05:41is a cost of taxpayers across all 14 councils but ultimately this is government taking a pause
05:48looking at what's happened looking carefully at the legal advice and then reviewing accordingly
05:53i'm confident as i said in the package a moment ago local government reorganization will happen
05:58the basic premise of moving away from two-tier councils to single-tier unitaries like medway
06:04is still government's ambition across england james i'll bring you in here you're a parish councillor
06:09so you're not really affiliated with the political party but you do sit on
06:12the centre right as far as i'm aware is this a waste of taxpayer money look i think if it
06:19happens
06:19the answer to that question is no because ultimately we do want services which are delivered more
06:24efficiently we do want services that are delivered in a really fiscally responsible manner but
06:28unfortunately we're in this situation now where uncertainty for now prevails if the lgr doesn't
06:34happen then that of course will be disappointing but i hope that the government take this pause because
06:38again if we had legal challenges that it costs far far more the government takes the pause
06:42gets its legal advice right goes back to the table and gets this moving as quickly as they can gives
06:48councillors residents and people right across the country the certainty that they deserve county council
06:53was in the middle of trying to put together some legal challenges it wasn't a full judicial review
06:58called by other councils but by the um county sorry but is that something that you would have backed
07:03well i think at the end of the day it's really important that before we get to situations where we
07:08put
07:08structural change orders in place for example that we know that this stuff has proper legal backing
07:12it's right that councils investigate that it's right that they come up with the routes that they
07:16feel they need to to best represent their residents but as i say my hope is we move quickly on
07:20this
07:21because at the moment no one's winning at all and vince you're a very senior figure within the labour
07:26party and that frustration we heard from you it was really quite mild are you going to be pushing
07:32the government to ensure that kent does get these you know shake-ups of the councils and they get them
07:37in that timely manner that you hinted at there well as i said earlier on i've had a couple of
07:42conversations directly with minister jim mcmahon this week um and so from that perspective those
07:46conversations are happening it's not unique to kent and medway that's the important thing to say
07:51there are councils across england sets of councils where this conversation is continuing that the
07:56frustration amongst all politicians of all parties actually these last few days is real and genuine
08:01because a pause although the right thing to do is frustrating and i want to say particularly i recognize the
08:06impact that's having on hard-working council staff many of whom would have been making life choices
08:11based on the likely vesting day of the 1st of april 2028 that now won't be the case so i
08:17absolutely
08:18appreciate and recognize the impact it's had on them linden also mentioned kind of fears about jobs have
08:23there any been any workers at medway council that i mean don't have any jobs anymore well no look i
08:29think
08:29government's been very clear and again actually in one of the sessions with jim mcmahon and the most senior
08:34civil servant for this government department they were clear that work could continue but work which is
08:40agnostic as to which particular map or format so there's lots of work for the 14 council to continue to
08:46do
08:47particularly around data it systems and others so that work will continue of course when we get the decision
08:53back from government on their review rapid review we can then build back in whatever the structures whether that's
08:584b as we currently have or another structure absolutely i think we'll see that work continue
09:04but the stuff that isn't related to a particular map or format that work is happening right now today
09:10absolutely obviously in that report we didn't actually get your reaction james to the to the news
09:15on monday tell us a bit about how you felt well i to be honest i wasn't surprised because it
09:20has been
09:20such a long process a convoluted process and a process that's had so much conflict i think when you have
09:26legal challenges you've got to take them seriously and that's something that really does need to happen
09:30but ultimately i am worried about the cost to taxpayers because if for whatever reason this
09:35doesn't go ahead or if we end up with a situation where we have to go from square one or
09:39something
09:39lower down the sort of priority lesson we already are that's not going to be good value for money
09:44the other thing i would say you know with my ken association of local councils hat on
09:48is that the impact here on parish councils is quite profound actually because we've had community
09:52governance reviews looking at our arrangements directly in response to what's been proposed
09:57and the government's broad framework for that although we didn't have the specific proposals
10:01at stage one and there's a lot of uncertainty there too because councillors and councils have spent lots
10:07of time on those we now don't necessarily know what's going to happen if these go out to the public
10:11for stage two consultation as is currently planned the public don't have all the information they need
10:16i don't think to make an informed choice so what i want to see and i'm really keen to work
10:20with
10:20everyone on this totally cross-party is clarity because in my view i think we do probably need
10:25to take a pause we do need to allow the public to have all of those choices before we move
10:30forward
10:30with community governance reviews and lgr in tandem
10:35absolutely parish council something we're definitely going to touch on in the second part of the show
10:40but if we use some of the other words that a lot of opposition leaders in the council chambers have
10:45been using they've been calling it a shambles they've been saying it's disgrace from the labour government
10:49do you agree with those statements well i think a u-turn is never helpful and even if this is
10:54a
10:54partial u-turn it's still something that's unexpected i think from many officers and people working for
10:59the local authorities and ultimately what we need is clarity when you have a change of this magnitude and
11:04it is a really big change clarity is really important but ultimately i would prefer a government
11:09to look at this and get it right because what would be far worse is if the government had rolled
11:14ahead
11:14with its plans legal challenges came in and that's what stopped it because in that case you're in a
11:19much more difficult legal position to unpick which could as i say increase confusion and increase costs
11:24to taxpayers do you feel things have been clear so far i think things have been muddled i think that
11:31is fair i think this episode is the the latest in a in a series of conflicts but ultimately this
11:37is what
11:37happens when you try and reform a system which is decades old it's what happens when you try and reform
11:42a
11:42system that has multiple vested interests at play we've ran out of time for this part of the show
11:48but stay tuned we'll be back
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15:09Welcome back to the Kent Politics Show here on KMTV.
15:12I'm Megan Shaw.
15:13And putting plans to replace Kent's existing councils with four large unitary ones on ice has meant that local elections
15:20scheduled for 2027 will see residents vote for who they want to run existing county and district councils.
15:27But there's no clarity on what will happen to Kent's first tier of local government, the parish and town councils
15:33who are in the process of evaluating how they need to change under local government reorganization.
15:39I'm still joined by the leader of Medway Council, that's Vince Maple for Labour and Cobb, and Councillor James Hodgkinson
15:47who's a parish councillor on the Upper Hadras Parish Council.
15:50So I've come to you first James, naturally you touched on this before, but have you had any advice on
15:56the government about what these kind of parish and town councils who are conducting reviews about if they need to
16:02change, do they need to pause these reviews?
16:04So ultimately at the moment there's been very little on this to be honest, and I don't think that's surprising
16:09because for all council leaders this has come as a bit of a bolt out of the blue I would
16:13say.
16:14Ultimately I'm really really keen to engage with council leaders on this and I've got a meeting with Alan Baldock
16:20tonight who's the leader of Canterbury City Council to discuss this further.
16:23And at the end of the day, my view, my personal view, is that before we head down the route
16:28of CGR consultation number two, we need to be sure and have absolute clarity on what's going to happen with
16:35local government reorganization.
16:36Because what I wouldn't want to see is a situation where this is delayed by maybe six months, 12 months,
16:4118 months, this CGR happens, local government reorganization then takes effect and we need another CGR to sort out the
16:48mess that might be left behind.
16:50Because ultimately each CGR costs councils money, it costs a lot of time for councillors, and of course we're happy
16:56to put that time in.
16:57We want to serve our residents, we want to give them the absolute best service that we can, but time
17:02is finite, resources are finite, and at the end of the day if we're spending staff resources on this, then
17:06that's going to come back through the tax take that we have to make at the next set of budget.
17:11Would you say these smaller first-tier councils have been left behind?
17:15Well, I would say that there's been a lack of clarity around that and, you know, even the response that
17:21Canterbury City Council put out with the CGR consultation number one didn't really mention much about this latest announcement.
17:28Now, I appreciate, as I say, time has been very tight, the turnaround has been very quick on this, but
17:32at the end of the day we need to have that dialogue because at the moment we're in a situation
17:35where we just don't know.
17:37I was talking to other councillors before I came on today and there is this palpable sense of confusion. We
17:42want certainty, we want clarity, we want to move forwards, but ultimately we've got to do that in a way
17:47which is considered.
17:49And Vince, you're not a parish councillor, but there are 11 parish councils in Medway and they're all working out
17:56how they would function under what was meant to be the North Kent Unitary Authority.
18:00Now, that's not going to be at the timescale they initially thought so. I can imagine it's been a turbulent
18:06time and that these changes aren't going ahead at the anticipated date.
18:09So what are you doing to support those parish councils in your patch?
18:13Well, I'll say a couple of things. Firstly, Medway specifically, I'm going along. We have something called the Rural Liaison
18:18Board.
18:20That's meeting next week. I'm really pleased to be going along. I was going along anyway for the avoidance of
18:24doubt to talk about LGR.
18:25So we'll be talking about where we are in that, so giving that advice and guidance directly to parish chairs
18:31and others.
18:32Across the whole region, though, I want to pay tribute to CALC, the Kent Association of Local Councils, over 300
18:38member councils.
18:39And it's a huge variety. And I think that's worth remembering as well.
18:43And these are people who give their time and energy to sometimes very small communities.
18:47And the engagement's been critical. So I've been pleased to speak at a couple of CALC events, one specifically on
18:54LGR and devolution, one at their AGM as well.
18:57The questions have always been very clear to me that different when you've got 300 different organizations, you've got a
19:04whole range of views from leave us alone.
19:06We want nothing to do with LGR, just some anticipation of saying, actually, can we take on and run some
19:12services from our town and parish council?
19:15So I think the fact that that conversation is ongoing, I've been really pleased.
19:19There's been good chief executives from the 14 councils engaging in that as well.
19:23And of course, there's a more regionalized across across the county as it is of Kent and Medway.
19:29So, yeah, this conversation continues. I recognize parish and town councils will be wanting to get on with a day
19:35job as we are in the 14 principal authorities.
19:38But also, most of them have got a keen eye on what happens next.
19:42But there certainly isn't a consensus as to what it will mean for their town and parish council.
19:47And in some senses, it's difficult to say what it will mean, because ultimately, if we do have the four
19:53model which we anticipate,
19:55that's currently still what's on the table, it would be up to the four unitary authority leaders.
20:00You could have a leader who wants nothing to do with town and parish councils.
20:03I would respectfully suggest they'd be stupid if they took that approach, but that would be a matter for them.
20:08They could have others like me who want to engage positively, in my case, with the 11 we've got here
20:12in Medway.
20:15In that initial announced by Angela Arena, there was no mention of these town and parish councils.
20:20It's kind of been left up to district, borough, county councils or yourself at Medway council to kind of figure
20:26out these gaps of what do we do with these kind of half done reviews.
20:31Do you feel like there should have been some government advice there, some support?
20:34So I was actually I was at Parliament yesterday. I was with the chief of NELC, which is the National
20:40Association of Local Councils.
20:43Justin Griggs, really good guy. I've worked closely with him. And again, the fact that most of those councils are
20:48apolitical and they're very focused on often very small communities.
20:53It's right to say when you've got urgent advice legally, which impacts on the principal councils, districts, boroughs, unitaries and
21:00counties, it is right to have that focus.
21:02But certainly the government white paper was referred to both parish and town councils, but also area committees, because government
21:10have been clear when we talk about devolution.
21:12That's not just powers from central government to local government. That's the backbench councillors and sort of wider community.
21:18And town and parish councils, along with organisations like business improvement districts, bids, they'll all be part of those area
21:24committees.
21:25They'll have their day job of being a parish council or being a bid, but they'll be part of that
21:29conversation as well.
21:32James, if we imagine a Kent with those four large unitary authorities, that kind of power will be centralised.
21:38Do you think going forward these smaller parish and town councils will be even more important because people might feel
21:45distant perhaps from the more central governance and might connect more with their town and parish councils?
21:50Yeah, absolutely. And I think at the end of the day, if we're going to take power further away from
21:54people, it's good for them to have a layer of government which is close to them, which charges a relatively
21:59low amount of tax and is purely there to help them access services if need be, help them communicate with
22:05their higher tier councillors if need be, and ultimately provide that local grassroots representative voice.
22:10Because the alternative is you end up with a position where people are remote from democracy, people might be less
22:16engaged with democracy.
22:17So local government reorganisation done right, community governance reviews done right, can lead to a really, really dynamic set of
22:24local democratic institutions.
22:27I mean, we've been talking about local government reorganisation for a while. It does make sense that we do touch
22:32on devolution too.
22:34Some new news that the Prime Minister has wanted to give mayors power to charge what he's described, an uncapped
22:40tourist tax on things like hotels and bed and breakfasts.
22:44Vince, we might soon have a mayor in Kent. That is something you do support. Would you support this?
22:49Look, I think the overnight visitor levy, to give it its proper name, although I think most people are calling
22:54it the tourism tax.
22:55Look, if you go to most places around the world, actually, certainly the largest cities, it's completely normal to have
23:02a kind of couple of euro charge on top of your hotel bill.
23:05So I think actually the UK have been behind the line on this.
23:09I think what's important, and I really welcome this, is that money will stay locally.
23:13That will be for local mayors to decide what isn't clear yet.
23:17And again, we're having those conversations, although this is really big news with obviously what happened on Monday.
23:22This has been overshadowed a little bit.
23:25But I think what the conversation is what happens to regions like Kent and Medway, both now and in that
23:30interim period,
23:30before we get to having some form of strategic authority.
23:34So I'm broadly supportive of the principle.
23:36I think most people don't go, I'm not going to visit Barcelona because I've got to pay two extra euros.
23:41You know, people aren't saying that.
23:43But I'm clear that this has got to be the key for this is about making sure very clearly mayors
23:49say, where is that funding going?
23:50And I think there's a role ultimately both for the unitaries when we get there or the districts and boroughs
23:55at the moment,
23:56and potentially as well town and parish camps, particularly for those urban areas where we've got tourism at the heart
24:02of it.
24:03But of course, we've got some good rural tourism.
24:05If you think about people going to vineries to drink some high quality Kentish wine, they may well have hotels
24:11attached to that.
24:12They'll be part of that as well.
24:14And yet the chief exec of UK Hospitality has claimed it would add about £100 to £220 to the average
24:20cost of a family holiday in England.
24:22And staycations, I'd say they are on the rise as people, you know, because of the cost of living, think
24:27we're not going to go abroad this year.
24:29Is that fair on, you know, are we not harming our own economy here?
24:34Well, look, I don't respectfully and I know the chair very well.
24:38He's a very good person. I don't accept that figure.
24:41I don't think that's an accurate figure necessarily.
24:44You know, if you're looking at a couple of pounds per night, again, it depends on the model.
24:47That's still being worked through at the moment.
24:50There will be some places where mayors may choose to not introduce it.
24:54Labour mayors collectively have said we're going to cap it at 5%.
24:57That would certainly be below any of those 120 plus figures you're talking about there.
25:02But yes, I agree with the principle.
25:05And again, that's why we'll have these processes to go through the practicality.
25:08Would you to be, let's say you're the mayor of Kent.
25:11That's what you would, you would, you'd do at 5%.
25:14And that's a very hypothetical question.
25:16But I think one of the keys is talking to the, as it would be at that point, the unitary
25:20authorities.
25:21You want a consensus. I think for me, I want that mayor to have that consensus view with it.
25:26Again, if we're looking at the current proposal of the four council leaders, you want them to work closely together,
25:31along with organisations like business improvement districts.
25:34Because again, they all have a key area because places like Canterbury in our case has that bid.
25:38So you want to have a good stakeholder collective conversation and hopefully come to a position of co-production.
25:44But ultimately, if you've got a mayor, the mayor will be making that decision.
25:47And James, on the slightly opposite end of the political spectrum here, what do you make of this?
25:52Well, I have to say, I think it's a relatively tone deaf proposal.
25:55We talk a lot about the cost of living crisis.
25:57We know that staycations in Britain are on the rise.
25:58And that's in part because families are really feeling the financial strain of this.
26:03It will make going on holiday more expensive.
26:05And it's important to remember, Vince mentioned the international comparisons there.
26:08Take Italy, for example.
26:1060% of tourists that go to Italy are international.
26:12Here, that's just 33%.
26:14So it's an entirely different market.
26:16It's an entirely different way of doing tourism, an entirely different industry.
26:19The hospitality sector has been under so much pressure.
26:22We should be making it easier for them to do business, easier for them to make money,
26:25not taking more money away from them and their customers in tax.
26:30I think that's all we've got time for on this Kent Politics Show.
26:34Thanks both to our guests, Councillor Vince Maple and Councillor James Hodgkinson.
26:38And we will see you straight after this for Kent tonight.
26:41Good night.
26:59Good night.
26:59So thank you.
26:59Two more minutes.