- 12 hours ago
Catch up with all the latest political news and debate around the county, with Meghan Shaw, joined by Labour Canterbury City Council Leader Alan Baldock and KMTV Channel Director, Andy Richards.
In today's episode, we discuss the government's proposed overhaul to SEND provision in schools, as well as the Gordon and Denton by-election.
In today's episode, we discuss the government's proposed overhaul to SEND provision in schools, as well as the Gordon and Denton by-election.
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TVTranscript
00:20Hello and welcome to the Kent Politics Show, the only show that gets Kent's councillors talking.
00:26I'm Megan Shaw and first up, the government has launched new plans to make schools more
00:31inclusive, in their words. This includes a new system for pupils with special educational
00:36needs and or disabilities known as SEND, which will aim to eventually reserve education,
00:42health and care plans for children with the most complex needs. While the government wants
00:47to improve support in mainstream schools, some parents and campaigners are worried the changes
00:52might make it harder for a child to get or keep an existing EHCP. There's a lot to unpack
00:59here, but first, let's see what Mike Martin, Liberal Democrat MP for Tunbridge Wells, had
01:04to say.
01:05They set out their plans to overhaul the SEND system, the special educational needs system,
01:12and the broad thrust of what they're trying to do, which is about increasing inclusion
01:18in mainstream schools. So, taking those students with some special educational needs and educating
01:24them with the appropriate support in mainstream schools, I think that's right, and I think
01:28everybody would accept that that's the right direction of travel. I think the concern is,
01:34and the government hasn't released the detail yet on what this looks like, there is a consultation,
01:39as ever, and I think the concern is that in so doing and making this positive shift, that
01:45actually, it's backed up with the appropriate resources and that you don't have some parents
01:50and families losing out.
01:53Now, I'm joined by Leader of Canterbury City Council, Alan Baldock of the Labour Party, and
01:58Angie Richards, a governor for a school that teaches children with profound, severe and complex
02:02needs here in Kent. And I'll start with you, Alan, now. Obviously, as a representative
02:07for the Labour Party, is this something that you welcome, despite, you know, there seem to
02:11be a few challenges there. Absolutely. I mean, I think we all know that the difficulties that
02:16just to get an assessment for some families is a nightmare, and it's a tearjerker, but
02:23often. So, just the fact that the new policy seems to be looking to really become the very
02:30start of a child's life, working through with support all the way through, rather than this
02:35flip-flopping around, like, you're only bad enough, now you've got an assessment, and then
02:38moving forward. And I think that needs to break so many hearts. I hope this, over the years,
02:43it will take a long time to get there, I think. We're going to need lots more staff, lots more
02:48training, lots more support, lots more, probably even buildings. So, they will happen. There's
02:52funding come with this, £4 billion to start with, £1.6 billion up front. So, I hope it's
02:59going to work better. It's huge improvements to what we do now.
03:04And Andy, I'll bring you in here now as a governor for Five Acre Wood School. So, we've
03:09heard some concerns there that Mike Martin touched on. Are you all right to just maybe
03:12expand on some of those that some parents are concerned about around the new plans?
03:18Yeah. So, just to be clear, I'm a journalist by trade as well, and work here at KMTV. So,
03:24I'm very much going to talk about what it's like to be a parent of a child with the SEND,
03:28and of course, my role as a governor. Listen, for me, for my son, he was diagnosed with autism,
03:38ADHD, and a mild learning difficulty from the age of two. So, for Jack, my son, he's never,
03:44it's never, we haven't had to fight for an EHCP. He's had several interventions in the past. And I
03:52think, what I think with the EHCPs is that the stigma around them has become huge. And people,
03:59and the general public, not really understanding what they are. And so, I think it's a little bit
04:04of a red herring of really talking about the EHCP specifically. It's more about that care for that
04:11particular child. Yes, it's a legal binding document, the EHCP. And the way they work,
04:16essentially, is that once a year, we get together with all the various people in Jack's care. That
04:21could be speech language therapists and people like that. And then we talk about them. And we talk
04:26about its needs, and we change it based upon that. And it's just making sure you're staying focused,
04:31that we're getting, delivering that sort of need. What the general public don't need to realise is
04:37that it's not connected to the benefit. You don't receive any money, because Jack's got an EHCP. Yes,
04:42there might be a little bit around transport, things like that. But that's what I get really
04:48frustrated with when the EHCPs are thrown around, as if people are desperate to have them because we'll
04:53open the floodgates of benefits and cash and stuff, which is just not true. I can tell you, as a
04:59parent,
04:59I'd much rather my child didn't need an EHCP. And that's the most important thing, is that people
05:05aren't going around wanting them just because they want something special for their child.
05:10They would much rather not have to need one in the first place. It's interesting you say that,
05:15because of course, what's going to be brought in is individual support plans for ISPs. Is that just a
05:21different name, without that kind of stigma that you've talked about? We have that already. So you have
05:26your EHCP, and you also have an individual healthcare plan as well. So there's two very
05:32different things. This is what the council needs to supply and to help with delivering the care for
05:39our son. But then you also then have to tailor what that actually looks like in class. So that already
05:44kind of happens. I think also this mainstream issue, it is really important that it gets sorted.
05:51Like we went and toured around schools, mainstream schools, and they would have accepted our son,
05:58which is absolutely crazy, because he wouldn't have been able to access support. And they had more
06:03provisions like what was called behind closed doors sin bins, essentially. So if a child can't
06:09interact properly in the mainstream class, they're put into a room, essentially. One we saw had a padded
06:15room. This is a mainstream school. So it really needs to be reformed. That's where it really needs
06:21to look at. But also supporting the actual SEND schools as well to make sure that they're supported
06:27properly, not just throwing money at the mainstream issue. Absolutely. And Alan, although of course the
06:32government is what allocates money for state mainstream schools, as a councillor, there is a role
06:39in distributing that money. So is there any worry here that day-to-day spending or the money that
06:45you allocate might, I don't know, might be under threat or might be even more tightly squeezed with
06:50more and more children who have these needs being in mainstream schools, perhaps without that support
06:56that gives them a clear stamp that they need? I think the government's already aware of that.
07:01And obviously, I'm a district councillor, so it's a second level down from that. But I think the fact that
07:08they recognise this has now been a national problem and not a problem that was dumped onto the local
07:12council or the district council or the county council. I think the funding will have to flow
07:17from the top down through. I think the fact of local government reorganisation will allow that.
07:22By the time this kicks off, the 28-29 will really start to make those years of difference.
07:27Then I think that funding from the top down through the local government will be right.
07:33We have to, we have to move. We have to, councillors will be keeping the government
07:41focused on getting the right money and the right funding. It has to be the case, you know,
07:45where there will always be conflicts, there will always be struggles, there will always be more
07:48money needed. But that's what local councils are there for, to fight your corner and get it right.
07:53And they rightly should do, and I'm sure they will do.
07:56And Andy, is there a worry that obviously we know mainstream schools are struggling
08:01ordinarily with things like teacher retention and their budgets, maybe with more and more children
08:06who have additional needs, maybe they're not complex, they're not profound, but mainstream
08:11schools now find themselves needing to somehow find this extra provision and care effort. Is there
08:17a worry that these schools might not be able to cope?
08:18Well, it's about the inclusivity, right? The SEND schools should be reserved for those students
08:24that absolutely have those complex needs. When there are, I would say, if you're able to access
08:31mainstream curriculum and things like that, surely there must be an alternative. There are some
08:36provisions that have opened up around Kent that aren't specifically designed for those types of
08:42children. But my son is entirely different to a child that is going to be accessing a traditional
08:49curriculum. So there has to be a way. And for those children, if they can get into mainstream
08:55schooling, in terms of the outcomes, in terms of employability and things like that, surely would
09:00increase. Special needs school is an awful statistic that not many people really talk about too much,
09:07is there's only about 5% of kids from SEND schools end up in full-time employment. It's a shocking
09:14figure that really needs to be addressed and that's for another day. But if accessing mainstream schools
09:21or those children who can access those mainstream schools can then be in those types of communities
09:26and then employability outcomes for them in the future would be better too.
09:31And I suppose as a governor and a parent, is there a system, is there a way of going about
09:35it that you
09:36think seems, I don't know, maybe more empathetic or more inclusive than the one the government has
09:41proposed? I think, you know, I can't, I'm not going to speak for school today. We haven't spoken
09:47about the white paper in much detail. But I still think that it's the funding issue that at a local
09:54level that's what we need to look at. We're actually going to be talking about that more in the coming
09:58weeks in terms of what's going on with funding for SEND schools. But anyway, I think as long as
10:05there's empathy towards everybody in our society and that it's not survival of the fittest, this is
10:11the thing that we've really, as an SEND parent, that you really want to make sure it doesn't happen,
10:16that the people who are making the decisions do have that empathy. And we do need to think about
10:21thoughts at those people in our society who have been born into something that they didn't ask for.
10:28And of course there is a public inquiry. So Alan, if, you know, if you had people writing to you,
10:34some residents from Canterbury and they were parents, they were campaigners, they wanted to get
10:37involved, how could they do that? They can do that through the government consultation. There's
10:41the government consultation, so please do get involved. Just literally Google it and you'll go straight to
10:46the site there somewhere. But also I'd encourage anyone that actually does that and they don't fancy
10:50filling in the form, fill in the letter. You know, consultations are often based around a form
10:58and questions. But you can write your own response to it as well. So please do. I think one thing
11:03I
11:03was just really, really interested in, your son started his journey through, is from an early age too.
11:09And the government seems to be really focused on getting started early, just getting the early
11:14years provision right. And I guess that's the right place to start, isn't it? Absolutely.
11:20Yeah, early intervention was huge for us with Jack. And there are a lot of it to do with
11:26speaking to paediatricians at that stage and you start to think about school and early years. But
11:30the early years people tried their best when he was accessing the free hours for nursery and things
11:37like that. But there was very, in terms of having Senkos and that, it was such a challenge. But that's
11:44really what the entry level was. And these are people that are trying their best in a smaller
11:50situation. Sorry to put you off there. That's all we've got time for for this part. But do stay
11:54tuned as we've got more coming up. We'll see you then.
12:36Let's have to meet you again.
12:36Join us again here.
12:54Join us again here.
12:54Join us again here again.
12:54Also, as Ina and siinä let's prepare for the podcast
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15:14with plumber Hannah Spencer winning a majority of 4,402 votes over reform. I'm still joined
15:21by Andy Richards, that's Channel Director at KMTV, and Labour's Councillor Alan Bordock
15:26of Canterbury City Council to discuss this more. First, Alan, as of course, you know,
15:3350% of the vote share was Labour in that 2024 election at Gordon and Denton. So were you
15:39surprised? I think we were not too surprised. I think, in all honesty, it was going to be
15:46a hard win. And yeah, I mean, it was a hit. I mean, we were incredibly popular last time
15:52around, not so popular now, that's an honesty. But also, I think the thing I take away from
15:58that as a positive, because you would expect me to say a positive, is not somehow some excuse
16:02for that, but is that it was clear that people of Gordon and Denton did not want reform. They
16:07were either splitting their vote three ways. Some people wanted reform true, but the tourism
16:13Lib Dems disappeared, and the choice was between their tactical vote was Green or Labour, and
16:19they certainly didn't want the extreme of reform. So that's an interesting point. And other parts
16:27of the country, I guess it will be a three-way split again, but with other parties. So I think
16:32we noticed that in our local by-elections, the three-way split. In Canterbury, we had a
16:38Green Council elected in a by-election as well, that was a Lib Dem seat. So it was, yeah, and
16:46we noticed that three-way split. We're not a three-way split country, were we? It was one
16:52or the other, Tory and Lib Dem or Labour and Conservative or whatever. It was just a three-way
17:00now, different story.
17:01And some people have been saying this is quite a litmus test for, kind of, faith in Starmer
17:07and the Labour government. Is that something you still feel confident in? Obviously we've
17:12had, you know, scandals around the Andrew files that the Liberal Democrats have been pushing
17:15the government to reveal, not the government themselves.
17:18Yeah, I think we come into power where the country was in one hell of a mess and everyone
17:26was absolutely fed up. They wanted change and change wanted tomorrow. And changing politics
17:33doesn't actually happen very fast at all. In fact, it feels like it goes backwards. And
17:39just to illustrate that point, I think when you become, when you get elected in a local government,
17:44that the first year of that term of office is actually spent planning the rest of your
17:52term and delivering what the previous governance system did. That's just a fact. You know, if
18:01you're going to build a house, you don't put the footings in the day after you decide to
18:04build it, do you? So, it's really frustrating. We all want to get on with the job. But the thing
18:11that Labour struggles from now is the fact that, you know, lots of the good stuff is
18:16shattered by the noise. And that's what we need to do one heck of a lot better. Because
18:20we've done a lot of good stuff, but it's disappeared into the noise of all the other
18:25controversies. And Andy, I'll bring you in here as a long-time journalist of many years.
18:30Obviously, Alan brought up the signification that reform didn't win. And I think over and
18:35over, it seems like reform has been unstoppable. You know, that they control England's largest
18:39county council and we've seen many conservative MP move over to reform. So, what do you think
18:44it signals for reform that they just missed out there?
18:47Yeah, I think I heard a great analogy on the way in, in the traffic of Maidstone, which
18:52was not fun as usual. But there was a football analogy where Keir Starmer is facing a penalty,
19:00and he's dived to the right and they've scored in the left-hand corner essentially, which is
19:05fascinating. Like Alan was saying, I think certainly in Kent, as we've seen, like you
19:12said, with KCC, with them having such a huge result there, although there's not as many
19:18reform councillors in the KCC seats anymore. However, I was going to ask Alan about Canterbury,
19:28because I think, he says it's a three-way, but surely it's a four-way with the independent
19:33Rosie Duffield. And it's such a fascinating seat, Canterbury, anyway, if you're saying
19:39this is a litmus test, it's a student town, where students are going to head towards the
19:45Greens. And we heard from Rosie Duffield, I think it was last week or two weeks ago,
19:48saying if the leadership was changed, if Keir Starmer was replaced, you would consider going
19:56back to the Labour Party. What do you think the Canterbury seat's going to look like at
20:01the next general election? Who do you think's the frontrunners there?
20:05OK, do you know, I think it, if I was going to guess, I would say the battle between Green
20:11and Labour, actually. Even though it was a traditionally Tory seat before?
20:17Yeah, I think so. I don't think there's a stomach for, you know, too far right wing in
20:26Canterbury now. I really don't know. But surely Rosie would split that vote, though, as well?
20:35If she still is independent, I doubt very much whether she would be welcomed back into the Labour Party.
20:41To be truthful. I might be wrong there as well, but I doubt it. I don't, I really do not
20:49know.
20:49It will be all over the place on that election. And it will be like the night that Rosie Duffield
20:55won
20:55and the first time round, you know, I can't remember it was 81 votes or something like that.
21:01And I was shocked and I shed a tear on that night. It was just incredible that I've been the
21:07lifelong Labour supporter
21:08and August thought it was impossible. So, you know, the impossible can happen. And it did that night.
21:15And the following time round, of course, it was slightly easier. But it still wasn't a huge majority, you know,
21:20so it wouldn't lead the days to the Tory majority. So, yeah, it'll be a three or maybe four, probably
21:26three split, I guess, in truth.
21:28Your name on the ballot, maybe?
21:30Definitely not. Definitely not. No, I shall be retired by then.
21:37And Ken, quite notoriously, is made up of lots of different social brackets.
21:42Notably, there's quite a lot of working class communities in Ken, despite perhaps having a reputation of being quite posh.
21:50Quite historically, we've had the Labour taking up that kind of vote and that representation.
21:54But more and more again, we've had the Greens move from what was perceived as this quite middle class vegan
21:59kind of party.
22:00And of the far right, you know, reform also filling that gap. Is Labour still that party, you think, for
22:08the working classes?
22:10I think, to me, it always feels that whatever, you know, there has to be, there's the parties of change.
22:16I think a reform are a party of change and disruption and the Greens are a party of change and
22:21disruption.
22:23Neither actually have a clear narrative, I think, going forward.
22:28Whereas Labour needs to be much more in the middle.
22:33But of course, that makes it a very difficult place to sit. It's more uncomfortable.
22:37But when it comes to a general election, I think people behave considerably differently.
22:42They look at a choice and a challenge for the next period of time.
22:46It will be hard. It will be hard.
22:49You know, I mean, typically, you know, we all know about the divisiveness of reform.
22:53And if you, many people will ignore that divisiveness if they feel they're the best way of changing it for
22:59something better,
22:59because they're told it's all going to be OK.
23:02And reform will say, it's all going to be fine, just vote for me.
23:06And Green will say, it's all going to be fine, just vote for me.
23:08But then you start to break it apart. And it is, you know, I mean, the Greens in Canterbury vote
23:12against social housing, for example,
23:14and talk down their own towns and actually, in essence, you know, voted against things like park and ride buses,
23:23you know.
23:24So where does that sit? You know, and they look at saying, why don't we put up the cost of
23:29the rent,
23:29the buildings that we own for shops, and then say we don't support shops, you know.
23:34So that's their line. And, you know, we don't have to fight reform, thankfully, in Canterbury Council at this moment
23:39in time.
23:40Not yet. Not yet. Not yet. So if we get a by-election, who knows.
23:44But, yeah, so those are the sort of things that people look at that and say, OK, it sounds better.
23:49We'll give it a go.
23:50I think, if I've got time, I think it was interesting the way you put that. I think there'll be
23:57a lot of reform voters now,
23:59as they've both kind of started to creep towards the centre ground, both Greens and the Reds,
24:06there'll be reform voters saying, hang on, don't call me far right. I'm not far right at all.
24:10I'm a moderate that's got nowhere to go, and I want to vote, and I feel at home most of
24:16all with reform.
24:18Similarly, with the Greens, what's been really interesting in the 24 hours, no one's been talking about Green policies.
24:25They've been talking about the legalisation of drugs. They've been talking about all the various different things,
24:30where the Green leaders tack them more to the middle. Then you've got Jeremy Corbyn launching his new party.
24:38But it is going to be a fascinating couple of years as we lead up to when,
24:43and I should imagine the Labour Party won't be calling a general election any time soon, that's for sure,
24:49when we do lead up to a general election in the coming years. It's going to be fascinating.
24:55But I think Medway is going to be a really interesting place to spot again that it's swapped all from
25:00Conservative to Labour.
25:02Will it swap all to reform? If you look at the polls, that could be the case in a couple
25:07of years' time.
25:07And, of course, we've got a council by-election in Cliftonville on the horizon.
25:11Obviously, very different areas, very different make-up. Do you think we might see this similar kind of fragmentation?
25:16That's open to both of you, yeah?
25:18Absolutely, yeah. I mean, I had a by-election in Winchey, sort of a very much a ward split between
25:25more affluent areas,
25:27as well as what you call the working-class areas, if you like, in that analogy you used earlier.
25:33Yeah, and we lost to the Greens. And likewise, Cliftonville, again, is an area with a wide demographic.
25:42So, yeah, it'll be split again, I think, and I don't think it'd be really hard to call.
25:46Is it frustrating to have this quite historic kind of, you know, the Labour Party, a very large party,
25:52suddenly be split by Green voters? Is that frustrating at all as a councillor?
25:56I think it's frustrating when you realise that the Greens don't have a policy on lots of things.
26:02When you become a party of governance, you have to change gear and actually start delivering.
26:08And, of course, they both have the luxury, they're not actually, you know, in power in Canterbury, if you like,
26:14but now reform are in Kent and they realise how difficult it is, you know,
26:20and suddenly they can't have to start doing things that are unpopular or compromises because politics is the art of
26:26compromise, isn't it?
26:27You know, competitive storytelling and compromises, isn't it?
26:30So that is a real difficulty. When you become in power, you have to face up to the real world,
26:35and that can make you unpopular sometimes. It definitely does.
26:38So you can't all say the right things to please everyone all of the time.
26:41The decisions in Westminster are affecting what's happening.
26:45I'm going to have to cut you off. I'm so sorry. Thank you both for joining us.
26:48We'll keep it going.
26:48We've got time for here. We'll catch you next week.
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