- 2 days ago
- #geopolitics
- #russia
- #china
Is the Russia–China partnership a true alliance—or a deal where one side holds all the cards? Geopolitical expert Benjamin Blondin breaks down hybrid warfare, military cooperation, China’s growing leverage, and what it could mean for Taiwan and beyond. Watch for a fascinating look behind the headlines. #Geopolitics #Russia #China
Subscribe for more conversations like this.
Comment what you liked most from the video.
👉 This channel was created in collaboration with https://www.youtube.com/@xaviertytelman
0:00 - Russia and China’s Joint Military Activity
3:30 - China’s Lessons and Support for Russia
6:21 - Hybrid Warfare, Iran, and Intelligence
9:19 - China’s Leverage and Territorial Ambitions
14:53 - BRICS, Taiwan, and Economic Dependence
19:19 - Russia’s Decline and Demographic Crisis
21:45 - Chinese Weapons and Industrial Limits
We are now available on Spotify! Listen now https://open.spotify.com/show/6KW2Zo9GU39VZSvv2zIpxM
Subscribe for more conversations like this.
Comment what you liked most from the video.
👉 This channel was created in collaboration with https://www.youtube.com/@xaviertytelman
0:00 - Russia and China’s Joint Military Activity
3:30 - China’s Lessons and Support for Russia
6:21 - Hybrid Warfare, Iran, and Intelligence
9:19 - China’s Leverage and Territorial Ambitions
14:53 - BRICS, Taiwan, and Economic Dependence
19:19 - Russia’s Decline and Demographic Crisis
21:45 - Chinese Weapons and Industrial Limits
We are now available on Spotify! Listen now https://open.spotify.com/show/6KW2Zo9GU39VZSvv2zIpxM
Category
đź—ž
NewsTranscript
00:00Hello and welcome to today's video in which we are going to analyze with Benjamin Blondin
00:03the situation and the ambiguous relations between Russia and China. Benjamin, hello.
00:08Hello Xavier, thank you for having me on the show once again.
00:12What do you know about China? Well,
00:14it turns out that I did a PhD on Chinese asymmetric warfare based in Malaysia for three years
00:19and now this year I'm in Taiwan for the whole year. I'm actually a visiting fellow at the
00:25Taiwanese National Defense Institute. So yeah, that helps me have different perspectives on China.
00:32You mentioned hybrid warfare, that's your primary topic. We've already made one video on the subject.
00:36Are we starting to see convergences between Chinese and Russian methods in the field of hybrid warfare?
00:43Well, each has a slightly different stance where I find it particularly interesting is that
00:49Russia has focused heavily on aerial drones, whereas China focuses mostly on naval platforms.
00:56So we're going to see uncrewed, hybrid or unconventional platforms,
01:01such as the use of civilian platforms for military or other purposes.
01:05And then we also have Sino-Russian cooperation, which is also interesting.
01:10What do you mean by cooperation? Joint exercises? Absolutely.
01:14So, of course, there is almost certainly some intelligence sharing.
01:19And we also have joint exercises on Russian territory in China,
01:24but also naval and aerial exercises in the Yellow Sea, in the East China Sea and in the Pacific.
01:32So with ships, fighter jets and strategic bombers.
01:36They run joint patrols. They go poke at their neighbors. Yeah, it's not absolutely. Well, right now.
01:40Just recently, we had Chinese ships that ventured first into the Japanese Ryukyu Islands,
01:47then went into the Pacific, into the Pacific Ocean.
01:52And they were joined by Russian ships departing from Vladivostok,
01:55which also crossed through the Japanese islands to get there.
01:58And they maneuvered. They carried out live fire drills.
02:01And then the Russians left and so did the Chinese.
02:05Right. And I also saw that they entered the identification zone known as the Alaska ADIZ,
02:10but that was in the air domain.
02:12So are they pushing further and further?
02:15Or is it just a return to old Soviet-era habits?
02:17Or is this truly something new?
02:19Well, we are indeed seeing a revival of the good old Soviet-era habits.
02:24But there is an expansion.
02:25And clearly, the exercises on both the Russian and Chinese sides are becoming more aggressive
02:31in the sense that they are daring more and more.
02:33They are going further and further.
02:35They are really getting into provocations that are increasingly visible and unapologetic.
02:42Including in the scenarios, mobilization in Kaliningrad,
02:46taking the Suwaki gap from Belarus.
02:50And then, I assume, it is openly directed against Japan
02:54when they have Russia take part in their exercises in China.
02:58Yes, absolutely.
03:00Given the territorial dispute that exists between Japan and Russia,
03:03particularly in the Kural Islands,
03:05it is obvious that this is not done innocently.
03:09There is a dual purpose,
03:10both in the fact that the Russians are doing it towards Japan
03:13and that they are doing it in cooperation with China towards Japan.
03:15And China, which itself has its own claims over the Senkaku,
03:19the Ayuyu, and the East China Sea.
03:21So, clearly, your interest and my interest.
03:24Well, let's combine our forces and go.
03:27Prod the Japanese neighbor and others a little bit.
03:31It is often said that there are hundreds of Chinese observers,
03:34soldiers, and officers present in the Russian military headquarters
03:37to observe the war, to learn.
03:40Is this something that seems credible to you?
03:43Or is it really all propaganda?
03:45Well, to me, it's completely credible.
03:48It would even be strange if China didn't deploy observers.
03:51While on the other hand,
03:52North Korea is deploying several thousand troops to the front line.
03:55So, from my perspective, it's absolutely credible.
03:58It also seems to be backed up by photos, witness accounts,
04:03a certain amount of evidence,
04:04let's say a body of evidence that all points in that direction.
04:07Let's say, we forbid ourselves from learning lessons from the war
04:10to avoid becoming a co-belligerent.
04:11We mustn't look at what's happening at all.
04:13While the Chinese, they dive right in.
04:14Exactly.
04:15But it's thought-provoking on the co-belligerent.
04:19Sorry.
04:19We won't finish.
04:21But, no, actually, to me, it's a glaring mistake
04:23not to deploy more observers
04:25and not to be more present or more active, clearly, in Ukraine.
04:29And where do we stand on Russo-Chinese technical and technological cooperation?
04:33We know that the Ukrainian hacks into certain Russian drone factories
04:38have proven that up to 80-90% of the components,
04:41or even the engineering, was Chinese.
04:44We see that sometimes cameras are recovered from unexploded Russian drones.
04:47When they analyze them, they see that it was calibrated in China,
04:50even with small recordings, the USB drive, the SD card that was still inside.
04:55Is this anecdotal, or is it truly massive?
04:58If China went to war tomorrow, it would have all the Russian methods in its toolkit.
05:05I think that very clearly, for China, what's happening in Ukraine,
05:09well, the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an absolutely tremendous testbed.
05:13Now, I had an exchange recently with a mutual friend of ours,
05:16and we were thinking that everything happening right now
05:19looks a lot like, in fact, the Spanish Civil War,
05:22where a number of European powers intervened or observed very closely
05:27what was happening in order to draw lessons for the Second World War.
05:32To me, from China's perspective, it's a similar situation.
05:36Well, something on the same level.
05:38And then what's interesting to consider is that China is helping Russia enormously,
05:44very clearly.
05:45So for a long time, it said, yes, but we aren't delivering weapons and ammunition,
05:50admittedly, but on everything else, there's clearly massive aid.
05:53Now, it can be direct or indirect.
05:56I mentioned the example that today, China exports a million cars a year to Russia,
06:01whereas before, it was 200,000.
06:04As for electronic components, we're probably looking at 80 to 90%
06:07of Russian components coming from China as well.
06:10We also have Chinese labor working, particularly in Siberia,
06:14several hundreds of thousands of Chinese, but also North Koreans.
06:18So there you go.
06:19Chinese aid takes different forms.
06:20Sorry.
06:21As you've seen on the channel, we often talk about sovereignty,
06:24economic, energy, food, and industrial sovereignty.
06:28And in the whole field of hybrid warfare, we've seen a lot from the Iranians.
06:32Well, the Russians, obviously, with their shadow fleet.
06:34We've seen the Iranians preparing civilian containers that contain ballistic missiles.
06:40The Russians as well, with missiles like the Club K, we know they've containerized Shahids.
06:45Is all this driven by China?
06:47Is there a Chinese partnership?
06:49Are the Chinese also drawing inspiration from this to, I don't know, surround Taiwan?
06:54Or are these two fronts so different for now that they don't really take inspiration from it?
06:58Well, there could be connections.
06:59One of them is that we've seen Iranian missiles suddenly become incredibly accurate.
07:05Let's say, to exaggerate slightly, where they previously had a margin of error of around 100 meters, it is now
07:11less than 10 meters.
07:13And, by the way, the U.S. Congressional Research Service just confirmed it.
07:16Hundreds of American buildings have been destroyed or heavily damaged, including early warning radars and radars for the THAAD and
07:23Patriot systems.
07:26So, most certainly, Russia played a role in this, but it is also not impossible that China unofficially provided access
07:34to the Beidou system as well.
07:36That is a possibility.
07:38Right. Beidou, let's remember, is the Chinese GPS.
07:41Exactly.
07:41Secondly, we've also seen that China has converted a former cargo ship into an arsenal ship with 60 missile silos,
07:48230-millimeter or 35-millimeter Vulcan cannons at the bow, launchers, radars, including over-the-horizon ones, and a ramp
07:56to launch drones.
07:57All of that on a former civilian cargo ship.
08:00Here again, we're looking at the militarization of civilian assets for military purposes.
08:04It's cheap, it's effective.
08:05You can check out our previous video where we also discussed all the civilian landing craft that could be converted
08:10to attack Taiwan and so on.
08:13Do we have any information regarding intelligence, the transfer of satellite imagery, and so on?
08:18To the Iranians, too, by the way, against the United States and obviously for Russia.
08:24We know that there were shuttles.
08:26Well, cargo planes were already flying back and forth between China and Iran.
08:29But we saw at a certain point that there was a spike, really a spike in activity, with an endless
08:35stream of Chinese cargo planes flying into Iran.
08:38So was it to replenish the radars and anti-aircraft systems that had been destroyed in the early stages?
08:44We don't know that.
08:46Intelligence, well, we mentioned earlier the matter of satellites, that is, well, missiles.
08:51Intelligence, then operational intelligence.
08:53We know when there is intelligence cooperation between the two, but I couldn't be more specific.
08:59However, one point I haven't mentioned is hybrid operations in the sense that Chinese vessels have sabotaged cables in the
09:08Baltic Sea.
09:08And we're talking about ships with Chinese names, Chinese captains, Chinese crews made in China and insured, I believe, in
09:15Hong Kong.
09:16And that's happened at least three times.
09:19Coming back a bit to the Ukrainian front and what's happening over there.
09:22Whenever you go to Ukraine, you still see that, I don't know, three quarters of the batteries consumed daily by
09:27the Ukrainians to hit the Russians are still Chinese batteries.
09:31The Chinese can't be unaware that their subcomponents end up in drones and kill Russians every day.
09:37Is it pure opportunism from a few businessmen who managed to bypass the sanctions?
09:42Or does China just not care at all, making money with anyone willing to buy their equipment?
09:48Personally, I think China couldn't care less.
09:50We saw the same kind of wheeling and dealing during the Iran-Rak War, where the USSR, just like China,
09:56sold to both sides without any scruples.
09:58Well, yes, France too, and Israel and the United States as well, in any case.
10:05Okay. So, roughly speaking, they will keep selling to whoever wants to buy from them.
10:10And even if tomorrow Russia tells them that this isn't very good for us, the Chinese still prefer making money
10:16over openly supporting their ally.
10:18So, it supports their client, it's taking advantage of Russia's difficulties more than a partnership like the ones we hear
10:25about with the BRICS, and so on.
10:28Well, that's something we touched upon in the previous video, where I mentioned that for China, there are no allies.
10:33Partners, yes, to varying degrees, but allies, no.
10:37And as a result, when China chipped away at its neighbor's land, well, even Russia, even North Korea, were forced
10:43to cede pieces of their territory to China.
10:46Here, we're seeing an absolutely identical logic, and China doesn't have any particular friends, and so if there's business to
10:53be done, well, they'll do it without any scruples or particular moral hang-ups.
10:59So, yeah, from that point of view, I'm not surprised at all.
11:02However, what's certain is that China has a key economic interest in helping Russia.
11:08First of all, when we saw the sanctions in 2014, China had already extended the financial lifeline, so to speak,
11:15to Russia, hundreds of billions of dollars in exchange for a substantial discount on the price of oil and gas
11:20for decades.
11:21Russia agreed. In fact, it had to renew it on even less favorable terms with the special military operation.
11:27That's one thing. But China has also completely taken over the influence that Russia used to exert in the Far
11:33East, across Central Asia, Kazakhstan, Tajikistan, and so on.
11:38And the theft, the shameless theft of Russian military technology by China, we don't talk about it yet. It's a
11:43reality.
11:44Yeah, and that's why they bought a small batch of Sukhoi-35 fighter jets.
11:48We know it well. There are official Russian reports expressing concern over the theft and technological looting of the equipment
11:53they supplied.
11:54That's true. On that front, we're not the only victims of their bad habits in the field.
12:00But as a result, that means that, overall, if we continue on the current trajectory,
12:06it's still in their best interest for Russia to stop this war before it collapses,
12:12or, on the contrary, for them to keep burning through ammunition, which would weaken American power globally.
12:19What is China's geopolitical ambition regarding Russia, then?
12:23It's not always easy to figure out. In a way, China cannot afford...
12:28Now, that doesn't mean China supports Russia's war of aggression against Ukraine.
12:32But at the same time, China cannot afford, from a geostrategic or geopolitical standpoint, to let Russia collapse.
12:38We're in an in-between position that also explains why China turns a blind eye to companies selling to both
12:44the Ukrainian and Russian sides.
12:48That's it. But let's remember that, about two years ago, the Chinese authorities had said that,
12:56or even simply on Ukrainian territory, China is prepared to deploy peacekeeping forces up to the Urals.
13:04That says a lot about Chinese ambitions and what it's ready to do.
13:08Because there are still Chinese territorial claims in Russia today. Absolutely.
13:14So it turns out there were what we call the unequal treaties in the 19th century, particularly between European powers
13:21and China.
13:23And China believes it lost Siberia and Sakhalin Island.
13:29And today, China hasn't officially given up on reclaiming its rights one day, which to me makes me think we
13:37could see a Crimea-style scenario.
13:39But in Siberia, one day where, well, as the Russian population declines and the Chinese population grows,
13:45well, we could see a scenario similar to what happened in 2014.
13:49Ethnically, there are areas where the Chinese are the ethnic majorities in Russia.
13:54So across the entire Siberian region, the, let's say, ethnic Russian population is in the minority.
14:04And it's a downward trend.
14:07There is less and less, quote-unquote, Western white population, and more and more Chinese, North Korean, and local ethnic
14:14populations.
14:16Right. So all they have to do is ask for independence and for China to come help them because they're
14:20being oppressed by nasty Russians.
14:22Eventually, we could imagine a scenario that would be the height of irony, where we'd have ethnic Chinese communities who
14:28would cry out to the motherland for help, who'd feel mistreated.
14:33Then we'd see unmarked self-defense militias appear, armed to the teeth, and then a takeover of these territories, along
14:43with, of course, one can imagine an endemic corruption that would mean the commanders of the nuclear missile bases would
14:48have already been bought off 10 years before the takeover.
14:52So, coming back to the hypothesis of a war over Taiwan, around Taiwan, do you imagine cooperation between the Russians
15:00and the Chinese that could go as far as saying, let's synchronize, you attack the Baltic states, you attack Estonia,
15:06and the Russians attack Europe?
15:08That would mobilize part of the European forces.
15:10While I try to enforce a blockade on Taiwan, we've already talked about open war and so on.
15:15Do you think they could synchronize to open two fronts that we would be unable to support?
15:20I'll give just one example, the F-35s.
15:22I mean, just for the war in Iran, the United States tapped into the stock of European spare parts, and
15:28Denmark in particular has complained about it.
15:30That means it reduced their ability to scramble their fighter jets.
15:33For us, it's a problem, you know.
15:34Do you think that's a plausible scenario?
15:37Personally, I don't think it's close enough.
15:39We can already see it, just looking at China alone, and the joint operations, sorry, between the different branches of
15:46the armed forces are really not, really not up to par.
15:50Now, China talks a lot about its strategic partnership and bond of trust with Russia, among other things.
15:59Objectively, it has never materialized on the ground.
16:03But besides, if there had really been a moment for China to launch operations in the region against Taiwan, that
16:08was it during the operations, an undeniable opportunity at a time when the United States has depleted its stockpiles considerably.
16:15And for me, that would have been the window.
16:18It was also brought up by several countries, by various media outlets.
16:22Yet, we have to acknowledge that China made no move.
16:25So, ultimately, the term BRICS, which is supposed to bring together all these countries whose only common ground is hating
16:32us or wanting to dominate or surpass us, it just comes down to hot air.
16:36There's no common currency, no economic coordination.
16:38They're exploiting Russia in several ways, economic exploitation, technological exploitation, territorial ambitions.
16:44In the end, what is BRICS?
16:46It's just politics to give the impression that they're strong together.
16:50To me, it's clearly an attempt to raise their profile, but it doesn't translate into any reality on the ground.
16:56We saw it at the meeting that just ended, the BRICS meeting, where Xi Jinping wanted to impose or at
17:02least propose making the yuan the common trading currency.
17:05It didn't fly.
17:08And for countries, for instance, in Latin America, I'm sure countries like Brazil that export a lot to China, it
17:14could potentially be of some interest.
17:17But overall, the yuan is still not widely used internationally, so the appeal of this currency remains low.
17:24The leading currency within BRICS remains the dollar, and number two is the euro.
17:28So, I think there's still quite a ways to go.
17:30That being said, China has required Russia to make 40% of its payments in yuan, which once again shows
17:37a new attempt at the forced internationalization of the yuan.
17:43But that's taken advantage of Russia's weakness once again, because they'll be, yes, getting discounted rates.
17:49It's like the discounts of up to 30% on gas and oil.
17:54Well, it's the million Chinese vehicles coming in duty-free, and it's 40% of trade being conducted in yuan.
18:02So, China is clearly in a position of strength.
18:05They'd be, well, I'm playing devil's advocate here, they'd be pretty stupid not to impose those conditions.
18:10Of course. And the major pipeline project to redirect Russian gas from Europe toward China, what is it, Power of
18:17Siberia 2, if I'm not mistaken.
18:19So, the DAV, China financed or co-financed Power of Siberia 1.
18:24It also invested in Yamal LNG in Siberia.
18:27And now, the idea was to double down in terms of pipelines and build the Power of Siberia 2.
18:33Well, apparently, the negotiations didn't pan out.
18:37Now, I don't know if that's because China was asking for too many concessions from Russia or too big of
18:42a discount, or in any case, the deal wasn't finalized.
18:46The latest report I saw on the subject was that the Chinese didn't want to rely on any single country
18:51for more than 30% of their supply.
18:53So, they want to diversify their supply.
18:56And if Russia wants to offer a bigger discount than what was already planned, they'll generously accept it, but they
19:02don't want to finance the transit, they don't want to finance the construction.
19:05Yes, yes, that was one of the conditions.
19:07And now, Mongolia, seeing that Russia is in such a weak position, even Mongolia, is starting to raise the transit
19:14fees it demands.
19:15We're truly in an incredible world.
19:18I saw that Kazakhstan, Kazakhstan's GDP per capita, had also surpassed Russia's as a result of…
19:25Which isn't surprising.
19:26The stands are experiencing strong growth right now.
19:29Fuel prices are at their highest.
19:32The worst part, for me, is that Russia could have become a top-tier country if the money wasted on
19:40the war had been used to develop infrastructure.
19:42We would have a country that would be extremely wealthy and a population whose standard of living might have doubled.
19:48The Russia is a country, it was Ukrainians who told me this.
19:53They spent their money to ruin the future of a country that could be among the richest in the world,
19:57and all that money to destroy the country that is the most beautiful in the world.
20:01That's what the Ukrainians say.
20:02So we all know France is obviously the most beautiful country in the world.
20:05But seriously, it's true that there's a tremendous amount of waste.
20:08And China's defense agreements with these countries, such as Kazakhstan, aimed against Russia.
20:13There are also the arms deliveries, with China replacing Russia in every country to supply fighter jets and so forth.
20:21All of this is inevitable, and the Russians are losing their foothold, and they'll never get it back.
20:25Yes, for me, the special military operation is a rearguard action of a country that knows it's, quote-unquote, doomed
20:32geopolitically.
20:34Faced with a Europe that is consolidating perhaps too slowly and only in part,
20:40but is consolidating under China that is clearly on the offensive.
20:45And by the end of the special military operation, Russia will be completely drained, whether it wins or loses.
20:52Even in the event of a victory, Russia will be in an absolutely catastrophic situation on a whole bunch of
20:57levels.
20:59Another question, a demographic one this time, because we saw that 700,000 Russians had already fled Russia in 2022
21:04for fear of being mobilized.
21:06We know that it's starting up again now.
21:07Are these people, the Russians who are fleeing, are they also going to China?
21:11Are they going to those countries?
21:12Or are they really leaving that sphere and heading instead to Europe, to Latin America, etc.?
21:20Clearly, China doesn't attract many people, at least not among Russians.
21:24And the figure I had heard was over a million Russians who had left Russia at the time of the
21:29mobilization.
21:30And so we have about 1.5 million dead, wounded, captured or missing.
21:37So for a country that's already facing a catastrophic demographic decline, this isn't exactly a promising trend.
21:45It's not looking good.
21:47Well, 20 years down the road, will the Russians have Chinese planes to put pressure on Europe or even that?
21:53Yes.
21:54Well, Chinese weapons, I should have addressed that.
21:57I would be very cautious, because as we've seen in Venezuela and in Iran, the Chinese air defense systems and
22:05radars didn't work.
22:06During the Cambodia-Thailand conflict, on the Cambodian side, the Chinese assault rifles didn't work.
22:12On the Thai side, the Chinese tanks performed very poorly.
22:16Or they catch fire on their own, which is nice, isn't it?
22:18In Bangladesh.
22:19In Bangladesh, indeed, we had the Chinese Type 59 tank explode, which caused two deaths.
22:27And the captain who was thrown three meters.
22:31And once again, regarding Thailand, China tried to export submarines to Thailand, but they couldn't provide the propulsion system.
22:39So there you have it.
22:40I'll leave it to our listeners to judge what's going on with Chinese weapon systems.
22:45I think we still have some leeway.
22:47And the Emirates, when they bought Chinese drones, they gave them to the Moroccans, because they said the quality was
22:53too poor.
22:54They didn't want them anymore.
22:55They didn't want to deal with them anymore.
22:56And Saudi Arabia, which had Chinese drones, isn't happy with them.
22:59Yes.
23:00Well, if I may add one last point.
23:01The Office of the Chinese Intellectual Property Office acknowledged that 93% of the patents filed in China did not
23:10meet international standards.
23:11So only 7% of China's annual intellectual output is truly of an international quality standard, which speaks volumes.
23:20Even so, considering the fact that behind the image of Chinese omnipotence, there are fields such as quantum or supercomputers
23:29where China truly has a lead.
23:32But, for example, when it comes to aircraft engines, notably copied from the Russians, which they had initially attempted, and
23:38I recommend watching the movie Born to Fly, which is a genuine propaganda film.
23:42The Chinese top gun, the engines pose a problem, a considerable headache for China.
23:48The Chinese copies of Russian engines, they last a few hundred hours, whereas a Western equivalent lasts 3,000 hours.
23:55And you should see the state of the blades after those few hundred hours.
24:00It's a huge problem.
24:02In the same way, as you know, I worked for Airbus in the past.
24:05After 25 years of reverse engineering, they are still unable to reach the level of the A320, not the NEO,
24:11just the A320, plain and simple.
24:14And if you look at the C919D, Comac, 80% of the aircraft's high-value components come from Japan, the
24:21United States, or Europe.
24:23And that, I think, speaks volumes about the fact that certain engineering cycles can't be shortened.
24:29And the fact that China advertises a lot, but, well, I pay attention to quality more than quantity.
24:35Okay, well, we'll see in a few years.
24:37I hope that they won't go too fast, because the less they support Russia, although one could say they support
24:43Russia the way a rope supports a hangman, but it remains complicated for the Russians.
24:50In any case, they'll continue to get exploited for a few more years, and they'll be in an even weaker
24:55position the longer they continue their war and depend and bind themselves ever more tightly to China.
25:01Exactly.
25:02In any case, thanks to Hugo and Xavier for this invitation, and I'd be glad to come back on the
25:08show.
25:08We'll put a few links to your latest publications and your LinkedIn.
25:11Obviously, now you're a consultant and not just a researcher.
25:14You're also a geopolitical consultant.
25:16You advise major corporations in the field.
25:17Maybe we'll run into each other on a few shows.
25:19We'll see.
25:20I hope so.
25:21Thank you, Benjamin.
25:22See you soon.