00:00So, Bricks, Detolarization and War of Narratives. Our guest is Glenn Deason. You certainly know him thanks to his famous
00:09podcasts. Glenn was one of our first guests on YouTube channel on our Think Bricks. It was almost three years
00:19ago, Glenn.
00:21So, welcome back to Think Bricks and I'm happy to finally meet you in person, face to face.
00:28Yeah, it's not the same as doing it online. Yeah, absolutely not the same. You're right. So, we do not
00:35have plenty of time. So, let's go straight to the point.
00:40The session you moderated here at Valdai asks whether an open world is now an utopia of the past. It's
00:50a very interesting topic for sure.
00:52So, we just came back from the Bricks Summit in New Delhi and where the members of Bricks downplayed the
01:03dollarization and the final declaration only mentions local currencies.
01:08But, we documented something quieter. A new trade finance infrastructure covering insurance, credit settlement and dispute resolution.
01:20So, is this quiet de-dollarization is the real strategy by the end? And is it more effective than the
01:30loud version?
01:31Well, we just had a talk with Maxim Oreshkin and he was making the point that de-dollarization itself isn't
01:41the goal.
01:41That is, just to de-dollarize for the sake of it. You know, even if it comes with economic cost.
01:47Instead, he was making the point that it's about, well, some of it's due to habit, even though it's not
01:53efficient.
01:54But, Russia will use the currencies which make sense to the extent it's effective and also considering the risks.
02:04So, because of this, this is the main driver for de-dollarization. So, we'll essentially reach the same conclusion though.
02:09I think that de-dollarization trends will continue because the US has taken on way too much debt.
02:15It's not sustainable and the key problem there is when the United States begin to print its way out of
02:22trouble.
02:23You know, when you print money, it's a form of taxation on everyone who holds your currency because they get
02:27new money and they lower the value of what the other people hold.
02:31So, essentially, America can tax countries like China and Russia for holding the US dollar. So, it's not acceptable.
02:38And even if it was acceptable, it's being weaponized to such an extent that it can't be done.
02:43So, I assume more of this will happen.
02:46And, well, just regarding what you mentioned before, not the end of globalization, but the end of an open world.
02:53I do think that the formula for globalization changed because what we refer to as globalization has been Americanization to
03:01a large extent.
03:01That is organized around American technologies, industries, transportation corridors, banks, you know, insurance systems, currencies across the board.
03:09So, I think what you're seeing now is once you have a hegemonic decline, what the benefits it had to
03:17build trust in this financial infrastructure is now weaponized to hold on to power.
03:22So, I think that there will be a lot of disruptions, a lot of problems, but when these problems occur,
03:28it will only further incentivize other countries to develop alternatives.
03:33And I think BRICS will be, yeah, the main platform for this because, yeah, as you listed, there's a lot
03:41of work that has to be done.
03:43But you do have to break some habits and you do have to, there's a learning curve and it does
03:48take to mature these things.
03:49So, it will not take, it will not be fast.
03:52It will take time.
03:53Yeah.
03:54And I think that's a problem.
03:55Well, not a problem with BRICS.
03:56That is, you see the old order falling apart.
03:59So, everyone knows we need an alternative.
04:01So, we have a queue around the block.
04:03Everyone wants to join BRICS now because we know where this is going.
04:06And at the same time, I think the main challenge for BRICS is they realize, okay, we have to get
04:10all this on board.
04:12But it goes so fast, it can be sometimes difficult to put all the things in order.
04:18And of course, the more countries are joined, they're more complicated.
04:21More complicated to make decision, common decision that fits to all.
04:25Exactly.
04:25So, I, it's interesting that the success of BRICS is also one of the challenges.
04:31Yeah, you are right.
04:33Let's talk about something close to home because both we are content creators.
04:40Your YouTube channel was taken down, then restarted, right?
04:46Two days later with no real answer from anyone.
04:50So, you describe it as a part of a purge tied to the Ukraine war.
04:56You have also argued that without digital sovereignty, there is no state sovereignty to speak about.
05:02Yet, you have defended free markets and pushed back against heavy-handed platform control.
05:07Last week, here in Moscow, the same building, we visited an event called Dialogue About Fakes.
05:17And the main takeaway was that beating Western fake news takes critical thinking first.
05:27So, it's not just like a mirror counter-narrative, but think critical thinking.
05:35So, here is the hard part.
05:37If the pipes are American, they can pull the plug on you overnight.
05:43So, how do you build real digital sovereignty without swapping one monopoly for another?
05:49And in that fight, what matters most, the tech, the money, or the trust?
05:58Well, when it goes to technological sovereignty, I think the main...
06:03It shouldn't be confused with technological autarky.
06:06That is, for example, Russia does have to build everything itself.
06:10I think technological sovereignty becomes a better term because the critical technologies have to have some domestic control.
06:19And you do see that in Russia.
06:20And often, I think that is neglected, especially in the West, where it's assumed that Russia doesn't have it.
06:25But if you look at the digital technologies, for example, Russia has a very well-developed digital ecosystem,
06:33which is in-house.
06:34And I think that's quite important.
06:37It's for a variety of reasons.
06:39One, when you educate local talent or domestic talent, they can remain here in good jobs.
06:47When there's new technologies emerging, Russia doesn't have to invent everything over again, the wheel.
06:52If some good innovations come from China, Russia can build similar things and incorporate it into its existing infrastructure.
07:01And, you know, so this technological sovereignty has many purposes.
07:05For one, it's where the profit is.
07:08You can also argue that it's a security issue.
07:11That is, I remember when Russia invaded Ukraine and you had people writing in the American media,
07:19can Elon Musk shut down the Teslas in Russia?
07:21And this is kind of the thing.
07:23What we often refer to as the fourth industrial revolution, which is why these digital technologies are moving into the
07:29physical world,
07:30you can't really outsource this aspect.
07:33I mean, even Adam Smith was all for free markets and recognize that at least the ports have to be
07:38other than national control.
07:40And I think that's what you see now.
07:41And also, if you have the key digital platforms, why can't foreign just hike the prices?
07:47Or, you know, if you have email servers or smart cars, all the data will go abroad.
07:55And that's the key problem they're discussing in Europe at the moment.
07:59All the data is being taken by the Americans.
08:00So, I know in the EU they warned in 1990 that they feared becoming a technological colony of the US
08:08and Japan because that was 1990.
08:10But it didn't develop technological sovereignty.
08:14So, for me, this is the opposite of technological sovereignty is to become a technological colony when you effectively become
08:19owned by the other side.
08:21If we are talking about being a technological colony, can we expand this colonization to media as well?
08:33Do you think it's time that Global South or BRICS, global majority, like many experts prefer to say,
08:42it's time for them to build their own digital platforms or media platforms?
08:49Yes, for a variety of reasons. One is the media you can access.
08:53I think it's important these days when you have censorship.
08:57That's something we see in here when they shut down all Russian media, for example, access.
09:01That's problematic.
09:02But also, I recently spoke to a former Indian ambassador, Badra Kumar.
09:07He's been positioned across the former Soviet Union and the Soviet Union.
09:13And, yeah, he was making the point that because the media is traditionally American in English, that narrative just dominates
09:22in India.
09:24And, you know, it kind of speaks to the idea that media is not just objective reality being communicated.
09:31We are living in such a powerful information war where you have people openly saying, you know, narratives are more
09:38important.
09:39So if I noticed that myself, for example, with this war we now have in Ukraine, I was making the
09:44point that, you know, the sanctions on Russia won't work.
09:47I said that from day one because this is my research focus on Russia reorganizes economy.
09:53And people said, well, then it's propaganda.
09:56It's like, well, how? What is propaganda?
09:58They say, oh, well, if you say that they're not working, you undermine public support for the sanctions, then they
10:03might go away.
10:03So you have to say, and so if you say, oh, the Russians, the Ukrainians are taking more casualties, the
10:09sanctions aren't working, and NATO is losing the war, all of this reduces trust in efforts, which means you can't
10:16say it.
10:17So we are living in an information war and no one's really hiding it anymore.
10:21So surely you don't want other countries to hold the weapons, if you will.
10:27And at least you can have aspiration for open and free media if you have your own.
10:33Thank you, Glenn.
10:35Thank you for your time.
10:36It was a pleasure to meet you finally.
10:38Finally, yeah.
10:38Yes.
10:39And see you next time on YouTube.
