00:07Let's talk about the security situation facing Europe right now.
00:11In your eyes, who or what is Belgium's biggest threat?
00:15Russia.
00:16Can you expand on that?
00:18Russia. Air attack, air attack, air attack.
00:23So this is the biggest threat. So we need air defense, air defense, air defense.
00:28We need Ukrainian technology to get to the European continent as soon as possible, and to Belgium as well, to
00:36NATO, to fight those jet-powered drones that come at 600 kilometers an hour.
00:42And we don't have too much. So yes, we need really air defense. We need to scale up our air
00:49defenses.
00:49We need to have more stocks, more production, scale-up production, industrial base, and large industrial base.
00:57Everything has to go faster. And then again, hybrid threat, of course. There will be more hybrid threat actions next
01:04coming months.
01:05It will be a dark winter for Europe.
01:07Let's talk about the hybrid threats. Rewind 12 months ago, Belgium was seemingly inundated with drones.
01:14But it's my understanding that the Belgian Federal Prosecutor's Office is still determining roughly where 40 of these drones come
01:20from.
01:21What conclusion do you draw from this incident? Who is to blame here?
01:25Well, that is the definition of hybrid warfare.
01:28It's very difficult to find the actor when you don't find the instrument, the drone, or the pilot who is
01:34doing this.
01:35So in Neipzig, the drones didn't explode.
01:38So the German intelligence service could really work on those elements, on those systems.
01:44And they detected 100% sure, certain that it was Russia that was behind this hybrid attack on the Antonov
01:53airplane of NATO.
01:55So yes, I am looking in the same direction.
01:59But it's really difficult to have the proof.
02:01They're very, very smart.
02:03Hybrid warfare is not something that Russia is starting since two or three years.
02:08They're doing this for 50 years.
02:10This is something that Putin was really very good at.
02:13So yeah, this is something that they have a lot of expertise in hybrid warfare.
02:18What has Belgium learned in the years since this incident occurred?
02:22You talk about drones, but what technology or capabilities has Belgium put on the ground to protect citizens and those
02:29assets that we mentioned earlier?
02:31So we bought a lot of counter-drone systems that are operational as we speak.
02:37And then we have an innovative partnership that has been launched for 1 billion euro.
02:44So we can always adapt and follow the trends because technology is going so fastly that we really need to
02:51follow the trends.
02:52And I don't want to have 200,000 drones somewhere in a stock where in two months you cannot even
03:02use them because they're outdated.
03:04So we have to adapt.
03:05So I want to have a partnership with our beautiful enterprises, Belgium, European, also American, to have, or maybe even
03:14Turkish, because they have very, very good drone systems, to as soon as possible have an innovative partnership that follows
03:23all the time the trends.
03:25Also, also with Ukrainian engineering, with Ukraine as a battlefield, we will normally conclude it by the end of the
03:31year.
03:31So we're in the final phase.
03:32So just speaking on drones once again, in a wide-ranging interview with the Flemish broadcaster, VRT, Robert Brovdi, who
03:39heads up Ukraine's drone defense department,
03:42he told Belgium to take off its, quote, rose-tinted glasses, and that Belgium, because it hosts NATO, the EU
03:50institutions, and Euroclear, which is the financial institution that holds a big chunk of Russia's immobilized assets, this is what
03:58makes Belgium vulnerable.
04:00Do you think that you're doing enough to protect the country from these incursions?
04:03Do you share his assessment?
04:05I'm ministered for 19 months.
04:07We were neglecting.
04:08We were like the worst pupil of NATO class.
04:11We had 1% GDP in defense.
04:14We are finding further of NATO.
04:15We are finding further of EU Belgium.
04:17So I think that we always were there for diplomacy, for soft power.
04:24But when we talked hard power in Belgium, everybody was looking at the other direction.
04:29So we didn't want to face reality.
04:32So now we doubled the budget.
04:34We have the 2%.
04:35I know that we need to do more, but it's quite a process.
04:41We're investing highly.
04:43We're doing so much, but I cannot do in 18 months.
04:46I'm minister.
04:47I cannot do it in 18 months, but it has been neglected for 40 years.
04:50Now Belgium is back again, but it takes time.
04:54I think that's – it's going in the right direction.
04:57Have we already all the capabilities that I want to have?
05:02No.
05:02It takes time also.
05:04Industry cannot follow.
05:05When I'm buying Patriots, I have to wait 10 years to get them.
05:09So we're in a very difficult position at this moment.
05:15Europe has been very good in investing in soft power, in social security.
05:20And it's beautiful to have a pension system, to have social welfare systems.
05:24When somebody's got sick, when somebody's lost his job, we have everything.
05:30But when there's war or when there's hybrid threats, we don't – we have anything.
05:35So, yeah, we were in a really difficult position.
05:38And Belgium was a really bad pupil in the past.
05:40But trying to step up, we have a stable government and trying to do what we need to do.
05:46Of course, and it's my understanding that NATO Secretary General Mark Rutte will be here today.
05:51What would you communicate to him about your plans to get Belgium on that 3.5% of GDP core
05:57defense spending target?
05:58Because, as you rightly pointed out, Belgium is not there yet.
06:01Two things.
06:02I think that's NATO capability targets will be – normally we have new NATO capability targets in 29.
06:11I think that we need an update sooner and faster.
06:15I think it's too slow.
06:17I think that the things that Belgium needs to buy from NATO are not the things that will be useful
06:23when there's war, I'm afraid.
06:25So, that is one thing that we need to talk about within NATO.
06:28And on Belgian budgets, we have the worst budget of EU.
06:32We have the biggest, highest debt of EU.
06:34We're talking about the budget as we speak.
06:37But saying that Belgium will meet the 5% tomorrow, we won't.
06:41We have 3.5%, we have the 2% core spending, 1.5% broader spending on security issues.
06:47So, we have 7 out of 10.
06:50When my girl comes home, she's 17 from school and she has a 7 out of 10.
06:54That's not too bad.
06:56But I know that the most difficult is the 1.5% core defense spending that we still need to
07:01do.
07:01So, yes, I'm working on it very, very hard.
07:05Believe me.
07:06One final question.
07:07Do you think the prime minister is receptive to your lobbying efforts to boost the defense budget?
07:12But Bart, my prime minister, Bart de Bever, is a very strong leader and he's a very intelligent guy.
07:19So, he knows what's happening in the world.
07:21And he's telling me, yes, I know.
07:23And I'm asking for more money.
07:26He knows.
07:27But he's not alone in the government.
07:29Belgium is a federal country with five political parties in the government.
07:33You have the Dutch-speaking, the French-speaking.
07:35That is not always the same in Belgium.
07:36Quite interesting country we have.
07:39So, it will be difficult, but I'm pushing for this.
07:43And Bart is pro-defense, 100%.
07:45So, yeah.
07:46He knows, but he's the prime minister.
07:49You know, he has to make the compromise.
07:51Yeah, I guess he's the boss.
07:52Thank you so much, defense minister, for taking the time to talk to us.
