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This special broadcast covers major national security, geopolitical, and cultural developments. The programme details the maritime incident in international waters near the Gulf of Oman, where Pakistan Navy offshore patrol vessel PNS Hunain executed an unsafe manoeuvre and collided with a frontline Indian Navy warship, prompting India to lodge formal diplomatic protests citing the 1991 bilateral military agreement.
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NewsTranscript
00:00Good evening, you're watching India First. I'm Gaurav Savan.
00:03A Pakistan Navy offshore petrol vessel carried out in an extremely aggressive manoeuvre on the high seas
00:10against a much larger and superior Indian Navy warship.
00:14Though the Pakistan Navy ship was damaged and limped back to harbour,
00:18an angry India has summoned Pakistan's Sharia affairs to lodge a protest,
00:23both in New Delhi and directed the Indian diplomat, the Indian Sharia affairs in Islamabad,
00:28to do the same with Pakistan's foreign office.
00:31So this incident took place in international waters around roughly 150 to 200 nautical miles
00:37from the Gulf of Oman, from the coast of Oman in the Gulf of Oman.
00:42Now, sources in the Navy tell India today that this incident took place yesterday evening.
00:47That's the evening of 15 September.
00:49A Pakistan Navy warship, PNS Hunain.
00:52So it's an OPV used as a guided missile corvette.
00:56It's built on an OPV platform.
00:57It closed in on a frontline Indian Navy warship at a very high speed.
01:03It manoeuvred in an unprofessional and unsafe manner.
01:06It caused a minor collision on the high seas.
01:09The Pakistani ship is believed to have approached the Indian ship from the starboard side
01:14at a very high speed, was unable to manoeuvre safely in time,
01:19causing a slight collision with the Indian warship.
01:21So PNS Hunain, it's an OPV of the Yarmouk class of the Pakistan Navy.
01:27So it's a medium-sized ship.
01:29It's designed basically to patrol coastal waters and, of course, open ocean zones.
01:35Now, PNS Hunain sustained damage in the collision.
01:38No major damage has been reported on the Indian Navy warship, which continued on its mission.
01:44PNS Hunain was commissioned in 2024.
01:46It's equipped with heavy weapons.
01:49The Ministry of External Affairs in a statement said that the Shari affairs of the High Commission of Islamic Republic
01:55of Pakistan in New Delhi
01:57was summoned to the Ministry of External Affairs and a strong protest was lodged over the unacceptable and unprofessional conduct
02:04of the Pakistan naval unit at sea
02:07that led to a collision with a unit of the Indian Navy.
02:10New Delhi insisted that the conduct of the Pakistan naval warship was in direct contravention of Article 10 of the
02:18agreement between India and Pakistan
02:20on Advanced Notice on Military Exercises, Maneuvers and Troop Movement of April 1991.
02:26In April 1991, India and Pakistan had actually signed an agreement on Advanced Notice.
02:32If either side were to carry out a core-level military exercise or manoeuvres and troop movement close to the
02:40border.
02:41Article 10 specifically deals with naval ships and submarines.
02:45It says naval vessels of India and Pakistan operating in international waters must not close within three nautical miles of
02:54each other.
02:54And that's roughly about five and a half kilometers.
02:57And the reason for that separation is explicitly to avoid incidents at sea.
03:04India says PNS Hunayn's conduct was in direct contravention of that Article 10.
03:10And this isn't the first time that an Indian and Pakistani warship have made contact at sea.
03:16I want you to go back to 2011, June 2011.
03:20Ines Godawari was carrying out an anti-piracy operation in the Gulf of Aden.
03:26And a video is available.
03:28It approached a recently freed merchant vessel and that was MV Swayze.
03:35Now a Pakistan Navy warship, PNS Babur, was operating in that area.
03:40PNS Babur closed in on Ines Godawari in a high-speed manoeuvre.
03:46It approached from a stern, it carried out a manoeuvre in gross violation of all international navigational safety norms and
03:54regulations.
03:55PNS Babur touched INS Godawari, of course marginally damaging the extended safety net on the Indian warship's helicopter deck.
04:04And the video went viral because Pakistan Navy sailors were actually filming this.
04:10India lodged a formal protest with Pakistan.
04:1315 years later, another Pakistan naval vessel collided with an Indian Navy warship.
04:19That time, Pakistani sailors were ranting and chanting, you know, they were chanting Allahu Akbar as their ship approached the
04:27Indian Navy warship.
04:29And why? There was no reason for them to do so.
04:32We've heard of road rage.
04:33This clearly is Pakistan's version of sea rage or the frustration of the Pakistan Navy on the high seas.
04:42Sea rage.
04:43And when operations actually happen, like during Operation Sindur, Pakistan Navy just melted.
04:49It melted into their harbours.
04:51Not only harbour, it went into the civilian harbour.
04:55Hiding between civilian ships.
04:57Their warships were hiding.
04:59Their submarines were hiding in the harbour.
05:04How does one explain this conduct of the Pakistan Navy?
05:07Deliberate tactics?
05:08As a Navy were doing this?
05:10Or are these captains of Pakistani ships like Hunain and Babur who are radicalised so much that the sight of
05:19a Indian Navy warship and then they want to wage kamikaze operations?
05:25Videos of park sailors screaming Allahu Akbar went viral.
05:28Then, how should one look at this shouldering incident?
05:31Joining me on India first is Commodore Anil Jai Singh.
05:34He's fellow of the National Maritime Foundation.
05:36Dr. Tara Kartha is a strategic affairs expert, watches Pakistan very closely.
05:41Sandeep Unnithan is a senior journalist and few people understand naval operations from a journalist's point of view better than
05:48him.
05:48Sandeep, welcome.
05:50Extremely unprofessional, but what more details do we have?
05:53Why did Pakistan Navy do this?
05:56You know, as you said, it's just a eerie replay of what happened in the Gulf of Oman 15 years
06:02back where this new Yarmouk class corvette, which is actually an OPV, started closing one of our warships and came
06:10in at a high speed.
06:11It did what many believe is a shouldering tactic, exactly like the AI-generated images on screen are showing our
06:18viewers.
06:18That is one of those classic tactics that is used, you know, at belligerents at sea when you try and,
06:24you know, either shoulder another ship, you try to cut his path or try to push him off course.
06:28These are standard tactics that are employed, Gaurav, by the PLA Navy and its maritime militias in the South China
06:36Sea on almost a daily basis.
06:38Now, one must ask the question that China is supplying Pakistan's submarines warships.
06:43Is it also giving them lessons in, you know, the kind of maritime belligerents that it's displaying in the South
06:50China Sea?
06:50And this can have extremely serious international consequences because the captain of the Indian warship we are given to understand
06:58exercise extreme caution.
07:00And he did not respond to this provocation because the safety of his crew was topmost on his mind.
07:07But had it been someone else, it could have led to a catastrophic incident where that warship would have, the
07:13Indian warship, would have, you know, adopted what would have been self-defense, you know, to protect his crew and
07:21his ship.
07:22He could have taken certain measures which the Pakistan Navy would not have been able to respond to.
07:27And as you mentioned, they are a Navy. It's a very bizarre Navy, Gaurav.
07:31In peacetime, they are the ones who are running around the sea rage, as you put it.
07:35In wartime, they are nowhere to be seen.
07:37They are not even there. Not one warship, not one petrol aircraft straight out of the Pakistan coastline during the
07:4488-R.
07:45So, let's try and understand this.
07:47Commodore is saying there are rules of road at sea.
07:50And isn't this a clear violation or can we say that perhaps it happened by chance, it's an accident at
07:59sea?
08:02Thanks, Gaurav, for having me on your show.
08:04Now, you brought up the topic of the rules of the road.
08:05That's what we call them at sea.
08:07They are actually very specific regulations to avoid collisions at sea.
08:10And just to give you an idea of how seriously these rules are taken, when an officer, young officer, is
08:16born on board a ship for watchkeeping, he's examined an ROR.
08:21And in an ROR, you have to get 100% marks.
08:24You cannot make a single mistake in that exam.
08:26So, that's how seriously the ROR is taken.
08:28And as one spends more time at sea, it almost becomes a part of, you know, you react by instinct
08:34to the correct rules of the road as we do on the road, when we are actually driving a car.
08:38Now, in this case, and the rules of the road are very specific.
08:41That's why you don't have collisions at sea, because it very clearly specifies which is the ship which has to
08:46give way to another ship, which is what we call a stand-on vessel, which means that you should be
08:50very clear.
08:51Otherwise, if everybody started taking avoiding action, there'd be more confusion at sea.
08:55So, that is number one.
08:56Number two, the rules of the road very clearly state that radar should be made use of.
09:03Every possible navigational aid should be made use of to avoid in collision.
09:07This is a warship.
09:08It's a modern warship.
09:09It's a guided missile corvette.
09:13So, it's obviously got state-of-the-art equipment on board, including radars.
09:16The visibility couldn't have been too bad.
09:18In any case, again, what the ROR says is visibility is bad, then you should anyways take care of any
09:23other ship on your radar.
09:24So, when you take all these factors into consideration,
09:26you realize that this was quite an unprovoked attack or an unprovoked action by the Pakistan naval warship.
09:32Unprovoked action.
09:34And it's happened before.
09:35Dr. Tara Kartha, what explains this mad mindset of Pakistani sailors and officers?
09:41We'd had an incident with PNS Babur earlier and PNS Hunain now.
09:45And it's rather self-defeating.
09:47The loss of PNS Hunain, loss to PNS Hunain is far greater.
09:53It limped back to their harbor.
09:55So, it was rather like, you know, like, say, a Maruti trying to hit a Mercedes.
10:01So, obviously, the Maruti would have suffered.
10:03But this, in part, Gaurav, I think it is also the fact that they train regularly with China, right?
10:09Whether they learn, what they learn, we don't know.
10:12But they train regularly with the Chinese who are into all these tactics.
10:15But I would give more emphasis to something else, given the fact that these guys, if they train so well
10:21with the Chinese, they should be there in what time, which they're not.
10:24So, I think it's more an effort to kind of, that whole terrorism mindset.
10:30You know, I said this on another show.
10:32When you practice terrorism sponsorship, it feeds back into your, you know, your armed forces mindset.
10:40The whole mindset begins to change.
10:42Officers begin to change.
10:43This is, once upon a time, years and years ago, I think a lot of Pakistani officers, I'm talking of
10:49long back, were pretty much on the same bandwidth as the Indians.
10:52You know, in terms of contact, in terms of how to speak, how to train, what you do, honor.
10:57Now, look at the difference.
10:59They do things we never dream of doing.
11:02So, there is that aspect also, I think, needs to be carefully weighed in terms of future war.
11:09Interesting.
11:10Is this gray zone warfare?
11:11Sandeep, you know, Dr. Tara Kartha points out that this is that same terror mindset being displayed at sea.
11:18And like we were discussing it, there's a pattern to this.
11:21PNS Babur in 2011 and Pakistan naval ship Hunayn now.
11:26That jihadi terror mindset, let me bully people at sea.
11:30Clearly, Pakistan can't be permitted to get away with this.
11:33Absolutely not, Gaurav.
11:34And, you know, I want to add one more warship to these Pakistani warships that you mentioned.
11:39That's the PNS Zulfikar.
11:40Now, the world knows what happened on September 2014 when a group of radicalized Pakistan naval officers and Al-Qaeda
11:48militants stormed this ship.
11:50They attempted to sail it out of Karachi and attack American warships.
11:53That kind of a thing has never happened in recent history, where radicalized militants have attempted to take over a
11:59warship.
12:00And these were Pakistan naval officers that were radicalized.
12:03Now, we have to ask that question, how many of these officers are radicalized, are behaving similarly, have plans to,
12:09you know, wage wars on their own.
12:11And they're not, you know, adhering to very, very specific norms that are drawn up precisely to prevent these kind
12:19of incidents at sea, 35 years.
12:21So, if you have these rogue naval actors taking matters into their own hands,
12:27then the Indian Navy should be empowered to take action to protect their warships and, you know, vessels when they
12:34close Pakistan naval assets of this kind,
12:38given the kind of history that they have had, Gaurav.
12:40Now, that's a very interesting point of PNS Zulfikar that you bring out.
12:45I mean, can you imagine naval officers, Pakistan Navy officers and Al-Qaeda terrorists,
12:50together they tried to take control of a ship, a warship.
12:54And why? Because they wanted to attack the U.S. Navy.
12:58Commodore Singh, Indian Navy sources tell India today, PNS Hunayn, it repeatedly ignored warnings.
13:06It actually accelerated and then attempted to carry out this aggressive maneuver.
13:12Given that sequence, a calculated act by Pakistan, a dangerous navigational aggression,
13:20was it intended to send some kind of a message to Indian Navy?
13:26Gaurav, I really don't know.
13:27But as far as, you know, giving a warning is concerned, that must have been done.
13:31Whenever two ships see each other at sea and if one ship feels the other one is not taking appropriate
13:35action,
13:36it's a routine thing.
13:37You call up that ship on Channel 16, which is the communication channel at sea,
13:40and you say that, look, you know, you say, I mean, there's a particular protocol which you follow,
13:45but you convey the message that, look, you're not doing the right thing,
13:48so why don't you collect your course or whatever it is or, you know, alter course away from me or
13:53whatever.
13:54Some sort of indication is given.
13:56And here it's a warship, it's a professional warship with a radar, with everything on board.
14:00So this is obviously an unprovoked, deliberate attack.
14:04Whether it's premeditated from the state perspective or just a rush of blood to the captain's head
14:10who was trying to show his machismo, you know, manning a powerful ship
14:13and must have said, let's give these Indians a scare and closed in.
14:17But this could have become a catastrophic accident at sea.
14:20I mean, when you're coming in at high speed at somebody else who's also transiting,
14:23how are you so sure that you'll just shave the ship and go?
14:26You could have, you know, a little miscalculation here and there
14:28could have resulted in a huge collision at sea.
14:31So, I mean, this is absolutely inexcusable.
14:33And if Pakistan doesn't take appropriate action against the people who've perpetrated this,
14:38then I'm afraid what Dr. Tara Karthar said about the Pakistan Navy is pretty true.
14:42I mean, as she said, I remember, you know, whatever little we used to read about the Pakistan Navy
14:47when we were young officers was, it's also very professional Navy.
14:50They're naval officers like us.
14:51They wear the same uniform.
14:52They have the same sort of background and ethos of the Royal Navy backing.
14:56And so they are professional for, except, you know, the odd, odd, stupid thing they do now and then.
15:00No, but it's actually just the opposite.
15:02There may be an odd professional in the Pakistani armed forces post Ziaul Haq.
15:06You know, there was a massive change in the Pakistan Army and Dr. Tara Karthar,
15:11because that 1991 agreement was specifically meant to prevent incidents and accidents between navies.
15:19So, what does this incident say about the effectiveness of the confidence-building measures
15:23that were put in place over decades?
15:26Like, if you carry out a core-level military exercise close to the borders,
15:30you inform the other side, fighter jets don't come 10 kilometers from each other's border,
15:35hectares, not more than 3 kilometers.
15:36If they do, then you inform each other.
15:38Same with the ships.
15:40None of that seems to be working with that jihadi mindset of Pakistan.
15:44Well, it's quite inexplicable.
15:48I'm just, okay, this is just slightly off the thing, a little speculative.
15:53I'm wondering what is going on on the other side.
15:56It was, I think, just off the Gulf of Oman, if I'm not mistaken.
16:00That was the location.
16:02Whether there is something there which they don't want other ships to see,
16:07because otherwise this doesn't make sense.
16:08Why would you do something like that?
16:10That whole area has a lot of other shipping also around.
16:15I'm not going into details, but if you look at the…
16:18Oil tankers, gas tankers, I mean, if they attempt a terror attack with a gas tanker or an oil tanker,
16:24and that is why Indian Navy escorting our, you know, energy security becomes extremely important.
16:32And while speaking of energy security, I want to now focus to the other big story that we're tracking here
16:38on India today.
16:39The Houthi forces have crossed what Saudi Arabia has described as its red line in this escalating conflict.
16:48So Saudi Arabia says its air defenses intercepted and destroyed a Houthi drone south of the holy city of Mecca
16:57before it could enter the prohibited airspace over Islam's holiest city.
17:03Now, according to Saudi-led coalition, the drone was intercepted at 6.50pm local time Tuesday.
17:11The wreckage fell just south of the holy city of Mecca.
17:15Emergency alerts were sounded across Mecca, Jeddah, Taif.
17:20Residents were asked to just move windows, stay away from windows and exposed areas.
17:24Avoid gathering or filming near any strategic location or religious location.
17:29The warning in Mecca was lifted shortly afterwards after authorities said the danger had passed.
17:34The Houthis, however, and there was tremendous global criticism of this act.
17:41The Houthis categorically denied that they were trying to target Mecca.
17:45They insist their operations were directed at Saudi military bases and their oil infrastructure.
17:51Pakistan, incidentally, part of this so-called Mecca joint defense agreement with Saudi Arabia and Turkey,
17:57stopped short of announcing any direct military involvement in this conflict.
18:02Now, this is where Pakistan develops cold feet.
18:04It wants to talk about battle.
18:06It wants the big weapons.
18:08But when it comes to the balloon going up, Pakistan runs away.
18:13That's Pakistan's DNA.
18:14Pakistan's Prime Minister Shahbaz Sharif condemned the attempted attack, calling it a dastardly and heinous attack,
18:21described it as reprehensible and unforgivable English that they perhaps find difficult to pronounce,
18:29but weapons that they dare not wield in this conflict.
18:33Now, he's praised the Saudi forces for intercepting the drone.
18:37He claims Pakistan stands shoulder to shoulder with Saudi Arabia, but perhaps only in words and not in deed.
18:46Despite the language, the collective defense in the Mecca pact,
18:51Pakistan has announced no military intervention, no military action against the Houthis.
19:01I once again want to bring in our guest in Sandeep, dangerous escalation.
19:05Saudi Arabia says Houthi drone was destroyed before entering Mecca's prohibited airspace.
19:10Houthis have denied this, but the consequences could have been disastrous for the world.
19:16Absolutely, Gaurav.
19:17And, you know, what is going to happen now is that Saudi Arabia is going to use this attack on
19:21Mecca as a casus belli
19:23to fashion some kind of a coalition, an OIC kind of coalition to attack the Houthis.
19:29Now, the problem with that is that while Saudi Arabia has been attacking the Houthis day and night,
19:34literally, there have been airstrikes, they've even fired ballistic missiles at the Houthis,
19:38they don't have the boots on ground to go in and physically defeat the Houthis.
19:43Because the Houthis are primarily, they're a militia force, they're a ragtag militia.
19:47They have a lot of fight in them.
19:48They drive these Toyota technicals and they capture territory.
19:52They captured 5,000 square kilometers of territory in a matter of days.
19:56And the problem now is that the Saudis have tried the military solution.
20:00They've tried deploying forces over there in 2015.
20:03They failed miserably.
20:05There was a ceasefire in place in 2022.
20:08And that is broken when the Saudis attacked one of the airports in Yemen.
20:13You know what, they may well be ragtagged, but they have the ability to fire missiles.
20:19They have the ability to strike, to fire drones, which hit with pinpoint accuracy.
20:24And whether it's Iran guiding them or their tactics, they've taken control of very strategic islands along, you know, Bab
20:32al-Mandab.
20:33And we'll talk about this in just a moment.
20:35What you've just shown there is that the Houthis have complete command over the Bab al-Mandab.
20:40You know, and as we were discussing yesterday, the fact is that in the past, in 2023, the Houthis had
20:45to fire their missiles and drones from the mountains.
20:48They're actually the mountains of Yemen.
20:50But now this lightning advance that they've done, they've captured all that territory.
20:54They're now on the coast.
20:56They've moved further up the coast.
20:57They've captured very critical ports like Moka.
21:02They've got all of those islands that you've, you know, outlined over there.
21:06So, they are…
21:07Six to seven very critical islands.
21:09Stay with me for a moment.
21:10But Dr. Tarakarta, for a moment, I want to come back to the holy city of Mecca.
21:14The home to Kaaba, millions of Muslims from across the world, they congregate here.
21:21Now, what do you make of Saudi Arabia saying Houthi forces tried to target the holy city of Mecca?
21:28How would this impact the wider Islamic world?
21:30OIC has condemned it.
21:32But will they stop at condemnation?
21:35I doubt very much if the OIC will go beyond this.
21:38Because they've all got their hands burnt by the, you know, this whole Yemen thing.
21:43I mean, but the thing is, I doubt if the Houthis would attack Mecca.
21:48I mean, it's an extremely holy site for them as well.
21:50They're zaidi Muslims.
21:52For them also, it's a very, very important site.
21:54And it would probably break their own support.
21:57They've got now massive support within Yemen.
22:00Especially after, you know, they defeated them.
22:02I think it's targeted about a hundred ships now.
22:04But in terms of the question now arises is who's going to remove them from those islands?
22:10Somebody has to go there physically and get them out.
22:13The U.S. has washed their hands off this.
22:15They said, we are not getting in.
22:17That's what at least Trump says as of now.
22:19What he'll do tomorrow, we don't know.
22:21And if I may bring in Pakistan here, if that's okay, is this whole Mecca pact, which, as you
22:28know, started way back from 2015 onwards, they've been trying to get the Pakistanis to defend
22:34Saudi Arabia.
22:35And they never succeeded.
22:36True.
22:37You know, all of y'all know that the parliament for once had a joint resolution telling then
22:44army chief, no, no, no, you can't go to Yemen.
22:46Since when did the army ever listen to the parliament?
22:48But then they used that.
22:50Interestingly, you know, Imran Khan was given that draft, if you recall, for a solid, you
22:56know, defense agreement, which he kept on his table and refused to sign.
22:59So, that they kept saying, oh, it's Imran Khan's fault, you know, he is the one who's creating
23:04a problem and he was thrown out.
23:07But subsequently, present Munir agreed to that draft.
23:12Yes.
23:13And then, I believe there was, that's what I was told, there was a lot of, from within
23:17the military, there was a lot of opposition saying, we don't want to get into this.
23:20No, because Shias within Pakistan, they lead to a civil war inside Pakistan.
23:26Absolutely, yes.
23:27Absolutely.
23:28But since you mentioned that map, and I want to put up that map of those islands once again,
23:32Commodore Singh, you know, you understand this very narrow, you know, waterway.
23:39So, the Strait of Hormuz is already choked and now, with the Houthis occupying these islands
23:45with their weapons, is that the reason America doesn't want to get into this battle?
23:50If you cannot remove the Houthis from here, the entire supply chain gets disrupted here
23:55and Houthis are well and truly entrenched here.
23:58Yes, the Babal Mandib Strait and the, you know, that little edge where the Red Sea merges
24:05with the Indian Ocean is extremely critical.
24:07It's a very narrow traffic separation scheme.
24:09I've traveled there two or three times.
24:11I've watched through that.
24:13And if you can get the control of these islands the way the Houthis have, then that means that
24:18it's a major crisis in the Red Sea.
24:20If you remember, as you mentioned, in 2023, they were firing from land.
24:24They had no control over the sea.
24:25And despite that, they were able to inflict plenty of damage.
24:28And they made sure at that time also a lot of shipping had to be rooted via the Cape of
24:32Good Hope.
24:32Now, when you root shipping via the Cape of Good Hope, it adds almost 8,000 miles to the passage.
24:37Yes.
24:4015 days or so.
24:41And if you really take the effect it will have on the global economy, we are talking in terms of
24:45billions of dollars per day.
24:46Supply chain.
24:47Oh, absolutely.
24:49Supply chain resilience.
24:49And all of this is going to be paid for by us, which means the global south.
24:53And so, it's going to have a major impact on the global economy.
24:57So, the chokehold remains.
24:59That is why the chokehold remains.
25:01And that is why U.S. doesn't want to take on Houthi forces.
25:03But Sandeep, I want to take you back to 2017.
25:07This is the second time Saudi Arabia says that Houthi forces have attempted to target Mecca.
25:13Remember the 2017 ballistic missile incident?
25:16They said a ballistic missile was intercepted.
25:19And this would indicate that the Saudi Arabian forces are very keen, the coalition is very keen,
25:26that there's a wider Islamic coalition or unity against Houthi forces, against Iran,
25:34so that in the name of Mecca, Saudi Arabia is saved.
25:38That's right, Gaurav.
25:39That's what the attempt is.
25:40And if you see the wording, the way it's called the Mecca defense agreement.
25:44And the idea is to get all of the Sunni countries together, Pakistan, Turkey, Saudi Arabia.
25:49It's actually aimed at Iran.
25:51But the fact is that now the Houthis are knocking literally at the doors of Mecca.
25:55And none of these partners have shown up.
25:57The Turks are not there.
25:58The Pakistanis are there.
25:59But they're not there.
26:00So, it's a big, it's a grand betrayal, actually, of the Saudis.
26:04They actually thought they could get Turkey and Pakistan to do the fighting for them.
26:08Yes.
26:09But, you know, as Dr. Kartham said, it's very unlikely that any of the Islamic countries
26:14are going to actually commit troops, because they've tried that.
26:16The UAE forces were there.
26:18It was a coalition that went in almost a decade ago.
26:21The UAE and Saudi Arabian forces went in over there.
26:24They thought they could roll over the Houthis.
26:26But those guys are very tough fighters.
26:28They've waged a guerrilla war, literally 50, 60,000.
26:31So, the last 30 seconds I have on this part of the show,
26:34Dr. Tara Kartham, does this indicate that Saudi Arabia will now be under pressure
26:38if Israel is the only country that has good intelligence and good operational capabilities,
26:45then you bury the hatchet, sign the Abraham Accord,
26:48and secure safety for this entire region?
26:53No, actually, the Israelis have long cooperated with the Saudis.
26:57It's been done very quietly, but it's been there for some time.
27:00Will they then move on to...
27:02That's a very good point.
27:03If they then move on as a quid pro quo for the Abraham Accords,
27:08which then I would really like to know from somebody that the American base is just down the road.
27:13How come?
27:14I mean, it's surprising that the U.S. is doing nothing.
27:17They're just sitting tight.
27:18So, whether this is...
27:20Because they...
27:21I mean, okay, I'll stop there.
27:22I'm just wondering what the game is here to get the Saudis isolated and pushed into a corner.
27:29So, the diplomat in you, very, you know, at the right moment, you've held your peace.
27:35But we'll actually wait and watch how this story develops.
27:39I want to thank all our guests for joining me here on this part of India.
27:43First, I want to move to the other big story.
27:45And that's a big step taken by the Ministry of Home Affairs.
27:50Zero tolerance for Pakistan's state-sponsored radical Islamist terror.
27:54And this is the policy that's being taken in big steps.
28:00So, the government says it's leaving no stone unturned to implement that vision of zero tolerance for terror.
28:05The latest action is against the Shahzad Bhatti terror network.
28:10The Ministry of Home Affairs has now officially declared Pakistan-based Shahzad Bhatti network a terrorist organization under the UAPA.
28:20The government says the network has been involved not just in smuggling arms and explosives and narcotics to India across
28:27the border from Pakistan,
28:29but it's also recruiting young people in India, youth and local criminals for terrorist activities.
28:37Union Home Minister Amit Shah insists that this action is part of Prime Minister Narendra Modi's big vision for zero
28:43tolerance for terror.
28:45The Home Minister says the network targeted India's democratic structure and fabric of communal harmony
28:52and also used hateful digital content as part of its activities.
28:56So, who is this Shahzad Bhatti?
28:59Now, Shahzad Bhatti is a Pakistan-based gangster, terror handler and social media influencer.
29:06His network has been linked to grenade attacks, ID attacks, petrol bomb attacks and targeted killings in India.
29:14He and his network are accused of using local operatives to conduct reconnaissance of police establishment,
29:21defence installations and religious set.
29:23Today's terror designation follows a massive crackdown on this network in August.
29:28You'd recall on the 12th of August, security forces had launched coordinated operations across 14 states in India.
29:36This happened from Jammu and Kashmir to Tamil Nadu to Kerala to Karnataka to Gujarat to Madhya Pradesh to Uttar
29:43Pradesh to Uttarakhand.
29:44253 suspects were taken into custody, more than 200 arrests were made, more than 80 FIRs were registered and here
29:53is a list of what was recovered.
29:55Improvised explosive devices, grenades bearing markings of Pakistan Ordnance Factory, pistols, knife cartridges, CCTV cameras.
30:04These CCTV cameras were being put outside military installations, railway stations, railway tracks, major national highways to see military convoy
30:15movement.
30:16More than 60 people were detained in Uttar Pradesh, 50 each from Haryana and Delhi, 44 from Punjab, 15 from
30:22Rajasthan, 8 from Maharashtra, 5 from Uttarakhand, 3 from Karnataka, Gujarat and Bihar respectively,
30:28and 2 from Telangana, Himachal Pradesh, Kerala and Jammu and Kashmir.
30:33The government says the August operation actually broke the back of this terrorist organization and their subversive, their plans to
30:41attack not just around Independence Day, but the network was demolished that day.
30:52A miracle, a blessing, a hard work being duly recognized and rewarded, or a combination of all these factors including
31:02divine intervention.
31:04Hanuman Ansh, a film made with a modest budget of about 2 crore, and that earned barely 10 lakh on
31:13its opening day, has emerged as one of the most profitable releases of the decade.
31:18The returns estimated at nearly 140 times the production cost.
31:23Hanuman Ansh, directed by Dr. Vishal Chaturvedi, and stars Shobhinav Satya and Chandan Anand in key roles.
31:35The director, Vishal Chaturvedi, Dr. Vishal Chaturvedi joins me on this special broadcast, and before I bring him into this
31:42conversation,
31:43let me rattle off some of the statistics that the film world actually considers a dream come true.
31:50On day 40, Hanuman Ansh collected a net of 8.25 crore rupees across 9,175 shores, and this brings
32:00the film's total India net collection to 231 crore rupees plus.
32:05The total India gross for Hanuman Ansh stands at 272.9 crore and counting across 1,37,549 shores since
32:17the release.
32:18And it continues to run to packed halls.
32:22Amazing.
32:23Let me quickly bring into this conversation, Dr. Vishal Chaturvedi.
32:27Dr. Saab, bohat, bohat, badhai, shubh kaam nai, many congratulations.
32:32Sir, is this your hard work being rewarded, or is this a miracle?
32:40Sita Ram.
32:42Sita Ram.
32:43Thank you very much for calling me this program.
32:48So I will say, before I go into whether this was a hard work or this had, this has become
32:55a miracle.
32:56I would like to, first of all, pay my gratitude.
33:00So in our office, this is the line that's written.
33:03When this home server comes and, you know, puts his hard work or money or efforts, even efforts.
33:11Efforts matter.
33:12Efforts matter.
33:13And I will say, everyone who has put their efforts to bring people to theatres, because that would have not
33:25been possible.
33:27From our promotional monies, and this happened so that everyone who has, you know, made their reels, or they talked
33:34about the film in their drawing rooms or, you know, offices.
33:37And they took school kids and everyone, like the kids took, their grandparents and grandparents took their kids.
33:44In one of the screenings, when we were, like, hopping theatres.
33:48So I asked, how many grandparents, you know, brought their kids, brought their granddaughters and sons.
33:55So there were some plenty amount of people and then I asked the reverse question, how many grandson brought their
34:01grandfathers or granddaughters brought their grandfathers.
34:05So there were plenty of kids and I said, there is a, the circle is completed.
34:09That's what I wanted.
34:10You are joining the families, how beautiful things you have said, this family is joining the families.
34:15You are joining the families, but tell me this, you know, as a good doctor, you have given the audience,
34:21what inspired you to make a film on Neem Karoli Baba, and this name, Hanuman Ansh.
34:29So, Neem Karoli Baba himself, I, after finishing my MBBS, I met with a sort of a miraculous event, which
34:37I today call Leela, because miracles happen at instant and Leela's happen over the period of multiple years and decades.
34:45Maharaj Ji's, my, I was doing my first job in Haldwani and then, I, my, our, our car, a few
34:54friends, we were traveling to, to random places near Nenital.
34:58And our car suddenly stops at a place and then, then the rain stops and, you know, the sunlight comes
35:04because we were not able to see anything before.
35:06So, I open my door and my door opens under Kachidham's Gate.
35:10And that, that intrigued me so much that it was literally an invitation inside the temple.
35:15Wow.
35:17And from that day onwards, I've been following this.
35:20I'll say, I, I believe that Maharaj Ji wanted me to make this film and he kept guiding me and
35:29kept putting me in situations where I had to find a unique way to get out of that situation.
35:36And, and, or, always a unique reaction which, which, which, which came inside my mind and then I kept following
35:45those paths.
35:46So, so that, I'll, I'll completely, you know, in a very, very surrender mode, I always say this, that it
35:54is Maharaj Ji's guidance under which we made this film and probably where it reached.
35:58But tell me this, sir, from the sets, to the music, to the storytelling, how much of this is your
36:15spiritual journey, your spiritual experience that went into the making of Hanuman Ansh?
36:22So, when I was a very, I was very young, I was 22, 23, I was going through some, some
36:28basic health issues and my mother tells me that you need to basically meditate and you need to do dhyana.
36:35And my mother has been a constant source of spiritual information all through my life.
36:40And she keeps, you know, calling me every monthly or two-monthly, and she will give me a lowdown what
36:46all she, she got to know about kriya yoga and this and dhyana and kundalini and all of that.
36:52So, because of her constant, you know, sort of, you know, sort of, she allows my strength and spirituality through
37:01my heart to grow and I also have experienced some things that I have.
37:04When I was thinking about it, I experienced it.
37:08And I believe that there is this world that is within you,
37:14that is inside you,
37:15that is within your own mind,
37:19or within your own mind is not as a nature,
37:23but in your own mind,
37:26in your own mind,
37:28in your own mind,
37:29within your own mind is also a spiritual journey.
37:31We are talking about it.
37:32If you will see the film, you will get a lot of conversation.
37:35No, my friends are telling me this,
37:37and think about that in our Sanskrit,
37:41Kaushalya, Maa, Devaki Maa, Yashoda Maa,
37:44Jeeja Bhai Maa,
37:46how much of a great spirit is to take the children's lives,
37:50and to take their lives.
37:54Yes, in that sense,
37:57and in that sense,
37:59I'm going to learn further,
38:00because I've been living in different places,
38:03and I've been living in different places,
38:05and I've been born in Bundelkhand,
38:06and I've been born in Bundeli's songs,
38:08and I'm going to write my own songs,
38:11and I'm going to direct my content,
38:12and I've said that Bundel's allahs, allah kind,
38:15and Bundel's all sorts of things,
38:16which I wanted to include.
38:18And Sadhu Tiwari,
38:19who is my mentor,
38:21and Sunil Lodi,
38:22who I found on the internet,
38:24and I called him to the same office,
38:25where we are sitting,
38:26where I'm talking from,
38:29and overnight,
38:30I basically asked him for the songs,
38:32and this one I really loved,
38:36and we recorded the very next day,
38:37because he was supposed to go,
38:38and go back to his hometown,
38:40by a train.
38:41So in half an hour, 45 minutes,
38:43we recorded,
38:43and this became the biggest song,
38:45I mean you can say today.
38:47And can I request you,
38:49when it comes out,
38:50when you sing it,
38:51it comes out from your soul,
38:53you know,
38:54can you for the benefit of our viewers,
38:57sing the lines of Maa Parvati,
38:59Parvati for us?
39:03Alright.
39:50It's so beautiful,
39:53it actually enters your soul,
39:55it's so beautiful,
39:57and this is a song from my heart,
39:59but you know,
40:00since you are a doctor,
40:02and since you said,
40:03you know,
40:05Maa has given the gift of Maa,
40:07because we,
40:08I at least believe,
40:09you know,
40:09Naase Rog, Hare Sab Peera,
40:11Japat Nirantar Hanumat Beera,
40:13is that also your life story?
40:15Chanting Lord Hanuman's name,
40:17destroys all pain,
40:19all diseases,
40:20that's the message?
40:22Yes,
40:24in Bhagwat Dakti and Hanuman Ji,
40:26play a pivotal role in Hanuman Chalisa,
40:29that says,
40:30as in,
40:33you can't get permission from them,
40:37there's another line called,
40:38Ram Rasayan,
40:40you have a formula,
40:41that says,
40:44follow up line is,
40:45that says,
41:11you are Ram Ji Kupav,
41:15that says,
41:16Naase Rog, Hare Sab Peera,
41:18Japat Nirantar,
41:19as in,
41:20As in,
41:20when it comes to Hanuman Beera,
41:21there's another line,
41:22as in,
41:24the song says,
41:26that says the line,
41:26broadcast from the soul,
41:26thank you for all.
41:42So, my belief is that at the end of the day, Neem Koroli Baba was a saint, a mahatma, a
41:49higher being.
41:51But we were actually, the people who are talking about it, that you were actually getting to know where they
41:58were at.
41:59You can be able to imagine, but not the way you are talking about it.
42:05But who taught and understood, why Haruman Chali Saha Piranar Sonhar Khan, Sitaram, Sitaram, Ram Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram, Ram…
42:15And why did Hanuman Ji get mad at that?
42:16He has all been hidden in this.
42:18And probably the film, I tried to decode the whole film.
42:22Wow, wow.
42:23And on day 40, Hanuman Ansh, the net collection stand at 8.25 crore rupees.
42:28If I may, if we compare it to Dhurandar, which again was a spectacular film.
42:342.6 crore is what it got in the same period.
42:37Pathan was at 2.55 crore.
42:39So is this word of mouth publicity that has a bigger impact, Vishal Ji,
42:43than even those massive promotions?
42:47I believe the massive promotions are done.
42:51If I can talk about the box office dynamics,
42:54what happens that when you have your film theatrical run for a week, first week,
42:59the film goes to people, people respond to the film that,
43:03okay, it's a good film or it's an average film, it's a great film.
43:06And then from there, the word of mouth picks.
43:09For that first week collection or first week people going to the theatre,
43:12you need massive promotions.
43:15And because it's all across the country and we face the problem.
43:19So I understood that it's not that easy game that you just simply release your film
43:24and then you expect people to, you know, just respond to it
43:27and then they will start giving you word of mouth.
43:29Attention span is so less today, in today's time,
43:32that you can't expect people to, you know, go and talk about your film
43:36like all the way they're asking, giving their testimonies.
43:39So no, no, go watch this film, I will pay for you, this thing.
43:41So things like that started happening when people found that this film,
43:47it's a good film and then it's reduced to 25 theatres,
43:50they are not getting tickets.
43:51And they are travelling from some,
43:53because the locations of those theatres were so odd
43:58that people have to travel, some of the people travel to 200 kilometres
44:01to watch the film.
44:02I've met such people.
44:03Wow.
44:04And this is happening in the second week,
44:06when they were getting word of mouth
44:07and then they are not getting the movie to watch.
44:11So the demand sells so much.
44:13And the second week,
44:15the other two films,
44:17one of the films was not doing well.
44:19Correct.
44:19And because of which,
44:20the theatre owners, you know,
44:21started opening shows for Hanmanaj.
44:26And also the Cinepolis, who's the distributor,
44:28they were also pitching their film.
44:29And from there onwards,
44:30it never looked back.
44:31It kept growing only.
44:33As soon as they opened theatres,
44:35people just rushed and then they started watching the film.
44:37But in those first two weeks,
44:39the word of mouth grew.
44:41But we could have literally failed and,
44:43you know, fell on our nose.
44:45But somehow, you know, God saved it.
44:47So when you say miracle,
44:49yes, there is a sort of a miracle.
44:52Nothing less than a miracle.
44:54But I'd like to thank everyone who has,
44:55you know, put their effort to make the reels
44:57and make, you know, talked about the film.
44:59No, someone's heart will be able to touch it.
45:01People's heart will be able to touch it.
45:03And so many people have talked about it.
45:05And curiosity increases.
45:07Okay, let's compare this.
45:09When you went to,
45:09apparently, OTT platforms rejected Hanuman Ansh.
45:13I'm sure now they're regretting their decision.
45:16But were you disappointed
45:17when they rejected the film?
45:21They didn't reject Hanuman Ansh.
45:23They rejected the story of Neem Kurali Baba.
45:25So when I pitched it to an OTT,
45:28which is one of the biggest OTTs,
45:30there are only a few OTTs
45:31and one of the OTTs, I'll say.
45:33So when they rejected,
45:36they rejected the story of Sri Neem Kurali Baba.
45:39And that was very disappointing,
45:41not just because it's my story
45:43or I have took it or...
45:44It's a public domain story.
45:46But you know about him
45:47and you are from India
45:49and why you're behaving so snobbish
45:51and why you'll have to, you know,
45:54say such things.
45:55If you just look who all he inspired
45:58and I'm telling that
45:59this guy is inspired
46:00and the Apple's founder.
46:02I mean, Steve Jobs, Mark Zuckerberg,
46:05it's a very long line.
46:06And who are you in front of?
46:08I mean, who are you in the company?
46:09I'm not talking about the person.
46:11I'm saying,
46:12whichever company it is,
46:13it can't be.
46:15Apple, just as a company,
46:17is probably 500 times more wealthier
46:20and it has more value.
46:21And the founder of that company
46:23was inspired by this man.
46:26Neem Kurali Baba.
46:27And the saint.
46:28The saint.
46:29So you just thought that
46:31the respect of this comparison
46:34which I'm doing right now,
46:35to understand where I'm working
46:36and what this guy is,
46:37whom all this guy has inspired,
46:40you should be a little modest.
46:42you should be arrogant.
46:44And you should be like that
46:45or you should be like that.
46:46You should be like a positive story.
46:48And there are so many
46:49who are going on there
46:51and who are being content
46:53and not that I'm drawing a parallel.
46:56But what do you think,
46:58Dr. Sahib,
46:59that there's a wider audience.
47:01There's a wider audience,
47:02not just for bhakti,
47:03but to know about
47:05the sanatan way of life.
47:07What is our dharma?
47:08What is our sanskriti?
47:10What is our sanskar?
47:11You know, lines like you said,
47:14Sankat kate mitte sab peera,
47:15jo sumrehan umad bal beera.
47:17People want to know
47:18what is our life all about
47:20and do you intend pursuing this further?
47:22What is your next project?
47:25So, I always believed,
47:27Gauravji,
47:28that there is an immense amount
47:32of possibility in Indief industry
47:33and we are only
47:35catering to
47:37I guess 5% of them.
47:41I guess 5-7% of people
47:44we are only catering to
47:46the possibilities of the footfall
47:48will be 40 crore
47:49in Hindi.
47:50If you have 40 crore,
47:53Dhurandar has actually,
47:54you know,
47:55he has
47:56bought it properly.
47:58He was picked up.
47:59He was picked up.
48:00And I also think
48:01Dhurandar has
48:034-5% of the possibility.
48:06I always believe that
48:08if you are not making
48:08family content,
48:09it means that
48:10you have your audience,
48:11your possibility of a film,
48:12you are reducing it to 10%.
48:14If you are making
48:15a good family film,
48:17you are,
48:18you know,
48:19making them,
48:20you know,
48:23making habitual
48:24of good content
48:25which you can
48:26go and watch
48:27in the theatres.
48:28A separate film.
48:29But a Gali Galochwari film,
48:31you don't want to watch
48:32them with your family.
48:33Or like you said,
48:34bringing three generations
48:35together.
48:37So,
48:37and that will result into
48:39and I always believed
48:40and I always
48:41told this
48:42and when I am saying
48:43I believe that
48:43from last 7 years
48:44I have been trying
48:45to make content
48:46which is not negative,
48:48which is not vulgar,
48:48which is not abusive,
48:51which binds people,
48:53which is not on the,
48:54creating, you know,
48:55factions,
48:56creating, you know,
48:56division in the society
48:57and the beauty
48:59about our film is
49:01that it doesn't
49:02antagonize anyone.
49:03It doesn't have
49:04any negative character.
49:07There is no will
49:08in the film.
49:08There is no three-acted story.
49:10There is no big hero.
49:11So, the beauty
49:12about this film
49:13is probably
49:14it's the simplicity
49:15which people are saying
49:16that it is the simplicity
49:17which they are liking
49:18and I believe that
49:20in that simplicity
49:20there was
49:22really relatable content
49:23for the families
49:25and that's what
49:26worked for them
49:26and obviously
49:27our belief system.
49:28So, when you say
49:29Sanatan and when you say
49:30our family system,
49:31our culture,
49:32we need to,
49:33you know,
49:34draw the bigger lines
49:35and we say that,
49:36you know,
49:37don't compare yourself,
49:38do not get into this.
49:39There is this possibility
49:41of this also.
49:42I'm not saying
49:42that you should not
49:44open up,
49:44you know,
49:45the cases or problems
49:46which are very,
49:47very problematic
49:48for the society.
49:48True.
49:49But I'm saying
49:50if you can also,
49:52but you will have
49:53to also tell
49:54that this is the library
49:55we are working with
49:56from the last
49:57five, seven,
49:57seven thousand years.
49:59We have plethora
50:00of stories,
50:01plethora of magnanimous,
50:02you know,
50:03stories and content
50:04and ideas.
50:05You will have
50:06to just explore
50:07and figure out
50:07that how you can,
50:08you know,
50:09customize it
50:10and say it in a way
50:11that people love it.
50:13So, tell me about
50:14your next project
50:15because I believe
50:16your next project
50:16is also
50:18spectacularly beautiful concept.
50:21So, I believe
50:22that since the film
50:24is about Hanuman Chaleisa
50:25and Neem Kurali Baba
50:26was also, you know,
50:27pressing a lot of people
50:28about Hanuman Chaleisa.
50:29I am also Hanuman Bhakt.
50:30I also run a Hanuman Chaleisa
50:32club on Clubhouse
50:33from last five years.
50:36So, people from worldwide
50:38they come and
50:38then chant Hanuman Chaleisa
50:39over there.
50:40Even today,
50:41even today
50:41the club is working.
50:44My Hanuman Bhakti
50:46has brought me
50:47to Hanuman Ansh
50:48and to Srinivas Kurali Baba
50:49and my Hanuman Bhakti
50:50will definitely
50:52take me to Tulsidas ji
50:53because that's the source.
50:55Absolutely.
50:56Absolutely.
50:57How beautiful.
50:58So, what you're doing
50:59Dr. Chaturvedi
51:00and I must delve
51:01on this for a moment.
51:03This is Bharat's
51:04civilizational knowledge
51:06and gyan
51:07that you're taking
51:08to future generations.
51:10I mean,
51:10when you're talking about
51:11Ghoswami Tulsidas
51:11when you're talking about
51:14when you're talking about
51:14then recently during
51:15Operation Sindhuur,
51:16M. Marshall Bhakti
51:17he quoted those
51:19immortal lines
51:20of Ghoswami Tulsidas.
51:22Ramachandra ji
51:23when they were taking
51:25to get to Sita ji
51:25and they didn't
51:27stop the river
51:27to get the water
51:28so he's talking about
51:29the river
51:30and he's talking about
51:31all the time
51:31that they don't
51:31go to the river
51:32that's how you can
51:32come up
51:32because you can't
51:34and go to the river
51:37and you can't
51:42get to the river
51:43He is also writing about it.
51:45Yes, and this is Sundar Kahn's last word if I am not wrong.
51:57So, very beautifully, Tulsidas Ji writes first of all,
52:01when Vibhishan comes and he tells that you can do this and you can do that.
52:05And Lakshman Ji is saying, Dev Dev Aalasi.
52:08We, the people who do Devta Devta are Aalasi.
52:12You should just go and, you know, we should try to do this and immediately we should…
52:18And Vibhishan tells that if you are the Kul Guru,
52:21you can do it with him, so he will make this path for you.
52:28So, three days, because they are the Kul Guru,
52:33so they wait for their Kul Guru for three days.
52:37And the most beautiful thing is that Ram and Hanuman Ji and Bhagawan Ram,
52:42which I want to say about the thing that I want to say about Ram and Hanuman Ji,
53:07But if it is supreme, and you can do it with the Kul Guru,
53:14then nothing like it, it's beautiful.
53:17And the only thing is that you are taking this to the future generations of Bharat.
53:22I wish you all the best.
53:25I mean, you're a doctor and you really know what ails the system
53:29and what is the way to treat it as best as possible.
53:34Dr. Vishal Chaturvedi for joining me here on this India First special broadcast.
53:39Many thanks.
53:41Aniravad, thanks very much.
53:42Excellent.
53:42Good night.
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