00:00Let's raise the big questions once again.
00:03Guru Gram, can we call it a millennium city or simply call it India's sinking city?
00:09Costliest city when it comes to net worth individual but simply no drainage?
00:14National capital region once again completely exposed.
00:18How does one fix India's urban mess?
00:21Joining me now, Vaishali Rana.
00:23She's a conservationist, environmentalist, trustee, Aravalli Bachao Citizens Movement
00:28and has filed cases as a Guru Gram citizen against the flooding in the area.
00:34Dikshu Kukreja, architect, urban designer and environmentalist also with us
00:38and Dr. Shiv Singh Rawat, retired superintendent engineer at Haryana Irrigation and Water Resources.
00:45I want to come to you, Vaishali, because when you see these images on the screen
00:49of these children in their bus stuck amidst these swelling waters,
00:53what does it tell us about the state of urban infra in a place like Guru Gram?
00:59So, good evening, Rajdeep.
01:01This is happening repeatedly for over a decade now.
01:06The first time Gurgaon got waterlogged and there was a traffic jam for almost 12 hours
01:12was in 2016 when the DC of Gurgaon was Mr. T.L. Satya Prakash.
01:17And the government, that time Mr. Khattar was the CM, and they had announced, you know,
01:25they had made big statements that we will sort out this issue in one year.
01:28And next monsoon, you will not have to face this issue.
01:31Unfortunately, it is exactly 10 years now.
01:34And every year, repeatedly, Gurgaon gets flooded.
01:37People, buses, vehicles, people are stuck on roads for hours altogether,
01:42like together for more than six to eight hours.
01:45And this has been happening because I was an NGT in Green Tribunal for, you know,
01:52freeing up the stormwater drains of Gurgaon.
01:55Today, Gurgaon has about 550 kilometers odd of stormwater drains,
02:00which most of which are encroached today, which, this is the main reason why Gurgaon gets flooded,
02:06because there is no, there is no outlet for the stormwater, for the rainwater to get out of Gurgaon.
02:12And Barchapur Nala is the arterial drain of Gurgaon, which drains the whole of Gurgaon.
02:18It is 28 kilometers long and it drains the whole of Gurgaon in monsoons.
02:22But today, that Barchapur Nala has become a kude ka Nala, a sewage drain,
02:27and the carrying capacity of the Nala has been severely compromised.
02:31That is the reason why Gurgaon gets flooded every year.
02:34The administration should focus on opening up the Nala, restoring…
02:37So, you're saying it's got worse?
02:40So, you're saying…
02:4118 kilometers.
02:42No, you're saying it's got worse rather than better.
02:44Am I correct?
02:46Sorry?
02:50You're saying it's got worse instead of getting better?
02:53It has got worse because the Barchapur Nala…
02:55It's got worse instead of getting better.
02:57Yes, it has got worse.
02:58It has got worse because 28 kilometers of Barchapur Nala, which drains,
03:02drains the whole of Gurgaon today, 18 kilometers of it is closed.
03:06It has been lost to encroachment.
03:08So, obviously, Gurgaon will flood today.
03:14Okay.
03:15Let me, you know, I want to bring in Dr. Shiv Singh Rawat
03:18because you're a retired superintending engineer,
03:21Haryana Irrigation Board.
03:22As it's been pointed out, it's getting worse.
03:25Politicians make promises.
03:27The fact is that encroachments are taking place
03:30all across a place like Gurugram.
03:33Do you accept that this is a man-made disaster?
03:37Yes, there have been rainfall.
03:39But it is also partly a man-made disaster.
03:43Absolutely.
03:50Dr. Rawat, do you accept that?
03:54You're on mute.
03:55You're on mute.
03:56Good evening, Rajdeep.
03:57You're on mute, sir.
03:59I'm audible now.
04:01Yes.
04:03Good evening, Rajdeep.
04:04Yes, yes.
04:05You're audible now.
04:06Yes.
04:07The fact is that the encroachment on the entire Gurugram
04:15by having the, in the name of development,
04:18by concretizing the, all the surface area
04:21has reduced the, the absorbing capacity
04:26of the, by the, by the soil, by the earth, by the ground water.
04:32And ultimately, it is, it has resulted in rapid runoff,
04:37which is causing the problem in the depressions
04:40and along the obstructions, like the national highway, like the major roads.
04:46But who's responsible for it?
04:49Sir, we know the problem, but who's responsible?
04:52I mean, do you accept that the government of Haryana
04:55and the Gurugram administration has singularly failed?
05:00It's, it's, it's, it's a long-term failure
05:03on the part of the administration, of course.
05:05Undoubtedly, it is like that.
05:07The planning has been totally failed.
05:11And the drainage was, was, was never a part of the development.
05:18And, and recently, if you see the, the, the,
05:23the flyovers, we have constructed the buses.
05:28We have another spot of the vulnerability
05:32for the, this waterlogging.
05:36And the problem has been created along the, in the, in the, in the...
05:40You know, the fact, you know, I, you know, the truth is that we all,
05:43you know, we all know the, you see, no, no, sir,
05:46we all know the problem.
05:47The problem is who is going to be held accountable.
05:50You see, Dikshu Kukreja, this is coming down to accountability.
05:53I can hold this debate next year.
05:55I held it last year.
05:56I held it the year before last.
05:57And we can continue groaning and moaning.
06:00Who is going to be held accountable, Dikshu?
06:03So, yes, the name has changed.
06:05Or who should be held accountable?
06:07The name has changed from Gurgaon to Gurugram, but not much else.
06:10And you and I have been discussing this for over a decade now.
06:14So, it is a pity.
06:15It's sad the way things are.
06:18Accountability obviously rests with those who are making policies.
06:21But I would just say something here that, you know, let's not just talk about one Batshapur, Nala, or the
06:27perils attached to it.
06:28You need to understand the fundamentals as a planner.
06:32Gurgaon, the way the city is located geographically, topographically, is fantastic.
06:37Right from the Arablee foothills to the Najafgaard Basin, there is a difference of about 60 to 70 meters in
06:44elevation, which is a perfect slope that can be created.
06:47And for centuries, that's the way Gurgaon has existed.
06:51Rainfall has happened, and water has taken its path.
06:53But what has happened now is that we have created so-called master plans, which water, unfortunately, doesn't follow.
07:00Water follows the topography of the land.
07:02And here we are concretizing the place, but we are not understanding that it's not just about collecting water and
07:09discharging it.
07:09The right policy anywhere in the world is that you collect water, but then you also allow that water to
07:16infiltrate.
07:17You store water as close to the place where it falls, rather than trying to take it kilometers away through
07:23drains.
07:24These fundamental aspects of planning, which is really called blue-green infrastructure,
07:30you integrate the green areas with the blue areas, as in where depressions, ponds, lakes, and all retention areas are
07:38there.
07:38This kind of planning is important.
07:40But does…
07:40I have a point to make, Rajdeep.
07:42But Dikshu, no, no, but who does the planning?
07:46Are we going to put all the blame on the government?
07:47What about the private developers in Gurgaon?
07:51Many of them are selling their flats for 50 crores and upwards.
07:55And upwards.
07:55No, Rajdeep, Rajdeep, I have a point to make.
07:58One minute, I'll come to you, ma'am.
07:59Give us time to speak.
08:00One minute, ma'am.
08:01Let Dikshu complete.
08:02Let Dikshu complete.
08:04Both need…
08:05Both are to blame.
08:06Because even the developers have only collected, amassed their private wealth.
08:11But they have failed to think beyond the boundaries of their plot.
08:14That's not the way development is done.
08:16You need to think of the public infrastructure.
08:19You need to think of the public spaces, which has never been the case.
08:23The developer has just purchased the land from the farmer, got the land use converted,
08:27and then gone about building his own isolated silo.
08:31And these so-called islands of excellence, as they call them, are really creating the
08:36kind of mess which I'm seeing right now on the screen.
08:38So, both are to blame.
08:40And I would also go ahead and say that it's time the citizens also start taking things into
08:45their hands.
08:46When there is a drain, why do we allow those drains to get clogged?
08:49Why do we allow encroachments to happen right under our nose?
08:53These kind of things are obviously going to add to the perils of what we are seeing on the
08:57screen.
08:58So, it's important that citizens want as well become more important.
09:02But Dikshu.
09:03No, Rajdeep, no.
09:04Yeah.
09:05No, I take your point about citizens.
09:07But there is so much, only so much that citizens can do.
09:09Vaishali, at least you get a citizen who's fine cases in the NGT.
09:14No, no, one minute.
09:15The citizens can't be blamed for this, Rajdeep.
09:19Citizens can only do so much.
09:20No, no, but all of...
09:21No, nobody is blaming you.
09:23But when citizens also, when citizens, can citizens put some pressure at all on administration
09:30or not?
09:31Yes, the citizens can put pressure.
09:31Or do we all live in our little silos, in our gated communities?
09:35I agree.
09:36The citizens can put pressure, but we can't.
09:38It is basically the administration which is failing, Rajdeep.
09:41A person who's buying an apartment, say, in a building which is made on a NALA or on the
09:50floodplains of a NALA, he would not know that the building is made on a NALA.
09:53It is the town and country planning department which is responsible.
09:56How do you allow a building to come up on a floodplain of a NALA or on a NALA?
10:01We were in NGT exactly for this reason.
10:04And why Batshapur?
10:04It is about Batshapur NALA because it is an arterial 28-kilometer-long drain of Gurgaon
10:11which drains all the run-off rainwater of Gurgaon and takes it to Najafgat Jeel.
10:16And then we had about 100 barns inside Gurgaon, all of which are lost.
10:21So, Batshap, all the run-off water would collect in these ponds.
10:26There are five such drains which go.
10:28The point here is not just about one element.
10:31No, but is it Dikshu too late?
10:32Dikshu, just a minute.
10:33No, no, Dikshu, one minute.
10:35Is it too late?
10:37Is it too late now?
10:38No, it's not.
10:39No, no, one minute.
10:40The NALAs are encroached.
10:42There has been poor planning.
10:43Is it too late now?
10:45No, it is not too late.
10:46It is very simple.
10:48I would still admit it's simple to solve it.
10:51We need to have our minds behind it.
10:53And I'll give you a very simple example.
10:55To begin with, when we do calculations of how much rainfall will happen annually,
11:00we are looking at historical data.
11:01That's irrelevant today with climate change.
11:04So, the first step is you need to look at data of the future, which is all available.
11:09You can project those numbers and then calculate that.
11:12Second thing, when you create concrete surfaces or hard surfaces and you cannot avoid them, that's all right.
11:19But you cannot just calculate the amount of rainfall.
11:22You need to actually calculate the speed of runoff.
11:26Because when the water falls in that one hour, it's not about collecting or quantity.
11:30It's about the runoff possibility.
11:33How do you control runoff?
11:35You make some of these surfaces permeable.
11:38For example, footpaths don't have to be completely concretized.
11:41You create permeation in the footpath so that some of the water gets, percolates into the soil.
11:46So, there are very simple solutions.
11:48And I could go on for the next one hour to tell you only simple solutions.
11:52The point here is those responsible for it, the civic officials and the government needs to understand that it's high
11:59time.
12:00It needs to be fixed.
12:01And only then if there is a will, the way is there.
12:05Trust me.
12:09Okay, well, you need a movement.
12:11You need a real movement in Gurugram.
12:13The Gurugramers who are India's rich and wealthy, many of them.
12:17Razi, we had 100…
12:19And will rant on social media, need to walk the talk.
12:25Yes, madam.
12:26That's what I said about the citizens.
12:29As per the records of Forest Department, we had 110 check dams in Gurgaon.
12:36Out of those 110 check dams, which were made during the British period,
12:41and out of those 110 odd check dams, we are not even left with about 20 check dams in Gurgaon.
12:47So, you can understand the kind of…
12:49Why this flooding…
12:50And Gurgaon, more than 50% of Gurgaon is concretized today.
12:53So, if those check dams are lost, if Gurgaon is getting concretized,
12:56obviously, we will flood.
12:58Bajshapur rain, which used to carry this rainwater, is also 18 kilometers of it.
13:03I take your point, ma'am.
13:04I take your point.
13:05Ma'am, I've run out of time, but I take your point.
13:08And I hope that someone…
13:10Someone is listening.
13:12Okay, I'm going to take a heartbreak at this point.
13:15I appreciate you joining us.
13:17I appreciate the anger and the sense of frustration.
13:19Because as I said, these images are seen year after year.
13:23Thank you all very much for joining us.
13:25All I want to say, just think about this.
13:27My take.
13:29Gurugram is supposed to be a smart city.
13:31If this is what a smart city looks like in the 21st century, what can I say?
13:37Even God can't help us.
13:39And even God cannot help Gurugram.
13:42Changing a name of a city is not going to get you anywhere.
13:46You need to stop being name changers.
13:48You need to be game changers.
13:50Think about it.
13:51Think about it.
13:51Think about it.
13:51Think about it.
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