00:00So let's raise the question, is this nature's fury or a man-made tragedy that we are witnessing?
00:06Joining me now is Sunita Narayan.
00:08She's Director, Centre for Science and Environment, leading environmentalist.
00:13Appreciate your joining us, Sunita Narayan.
00:16I just want to put some numbers out.
00:18Tree fall incidents in Mumbai, 2023, 687, 2024, 653, 2025, 855.
00:25But just in the last week, more than 1,500 trees have fallen.
00:30Delhi today has seen several tree falls and we are seeing it across the country.
00:34How do you explain it?
00:37I think, there is no question about it.
00:40I don't think this is rocket science at all.
00:42I mean, we are weakening the trees.
00:44We are concretizing the trees.
00:46In Delhi, particularly, we have these very, very, I think, inane rules that you cannot prune trees.
00:54You have to call the Forest Department to prune a tree.
00:57The fact is, you are making trees unstable as a result of it.
01:02You don't value the tree as the most important thing to keep the city cool, to keep the city's environment
01:13green.
01:14I mean, for us, these words have just become words.
01:18And yes, on top of that, you have climate change.
01:21And you are getting a situation where you're getting such high wind speeds and you're getting the maximum rain.
01:30I mean, that is climate change.
01:32But this is not to be dismissed to say this is nature's fury and so what can we do about
01:39it?
01:39We have to recognize the fact that our cities are completely unprepared today for climate change.
01:48This is the revenge of nature, but it's happening because we, as human beings, just refuse to accept the fact
01:55and get these things right.
01:57I mean, our cities are going under.
01:59We have no drainage.
02:00We literally have reached a situation where when it doesn't rain, we cry because of lack of water.
02:07And now, because of climate change, you will see high intensity rainfall.
02:12And our cities are going under.
02:14We need to get this message out, Rajdeep.
02:17It's time.
02:18No, what you're saying is this is the revenge of nature,
02:21but is being caused because of the manner in which the concretization is taking place.
02:26Just to again put certain facts, in 2015, the National Green Tribunal directed a one-meter buffer
02:33to be maintained around the base of every tree to facilitate root growth and water percolation.
02:39Now, what we are finding is that these NGT orders reportedly are being flouted, norms are being violated,
02:45norms set by the Ministry of Environment.
02:48Is the problem, as I say, therefore, the fact that we do have laws, but the laws are not being
02:54observed.
02:55Is that the issue?
02:56Or is it that no one just cares about what happens to our trees?
03:00It's only the wake-up call, as in the last week when we had this torrential rainfall.
03:06No, absolutely.
03:07Nobody cares.
03:08I mean, the fact is, we also don't know urban design.
03:11How do you protect the tree and the area around the tree when you're doing a pavement?
03:18How do you make sure?
03:20And there are some practical issues there.
03:21Because if you leave that area open, you have seen, and we all have seen in our cities, garbage is
03:29dumped there.
03:29So how do you make sure that area is kept clean?
03:32Lots of cities, and in India as well, have done some innovations on it.
03:37We need to make sure those are followed.
03:40But most importantly, the science of urban trees has to be understood.
03:47We need pruning to happen of urban trees so that the tree size, the tree is manageable.
03:55We have made at one level, and this is where I disagree, we have rules, we have regulations, but those
04:03rules and regulations are also taking us to this complete other extreme, where today, as you know, in Delhi, if
04:10I want to prune a tree outside my house, I have to call the forest department to prune that tree.
04:17And it's done perhaps thinking that if I prune it badly, I will destroy it.
04:23I'm interested in destroying the tree.
04:25But the fact is, this is not a system that will work.
04:29And today, in the age of climate change, with extreme rainfall, with torrential rainfall, it's time we learned that urban
04:38planning needs to grow up.
04:40You know, you keep using the word urban planning, there will be those listening who will say, look, at the
04:46end of the day, we are now in urban sprawls.
04:48Urban populations are increasing, everyone wants a house, there are developers who are getting permissions to develop all across the
04:55city.
04:56What were earlier seen as protected areas also now are seeing concretization buildings.
05:01I mean, there is a choice, isn't there?
05:03It is about the nature of, to use, quote unquote, development.
05:07What kind of development do we want?
05:08There will be people who will say, what do I do in cities which are 20, 25 million strong?
05:13How do I accommodate people without this concretization?
05:16Is there a real way in which you can concretize and at the same time protect your trees?
05:22No, Rajiv, that's a brilliant question.
05:24And that is really at the heart of it because there will be a cost to development.
05:29And that cost has to be measured and managed very carefully.
05:33We had systems, we have a tree act in most of the cities to be able to manage whether the
05:41trees should be cut or not cut.
05:43Those trees act have become so centralized, those decision-making processes have become so archaic, so inefficient, that you're actually
05:54not taking proper decisions.
05:56And all I can say again and again, Rajiv, is, you know, there were times when, you know, we can
06:03just keep saying, oh, let things, you know, they will keep changing slowly.
06:08Nature is the one message nature is giving us.
06:11Our time is up.
06:14Learn, change, or this will get worse.
06:17And that's what we are saying.
06:19You and I talk about this every year.
06:21We talk about the floods.
06:23We talk about the landslides that are happening, the way the Himalayas are crashing down.
06:29We are talking about extreme rainfall.
06:31We're talking about our cities literally going underwater because it rains.
06:38It is time we understood that this will only get worse.
06:42Today, we have El Nino happening, a time when we should have had less rainfall.
06:47We're getting these extreme rain events.
06:51And think about it from another point of view.
06:54This is valuable rain.
06:56These are valuable trees.
06:58If we would harvest every drop of that rain, recharge it, have our ponds, have our tanks,
07:05we have ways of managing when the rain stops.
07:09If we have those trees, we manage when there is extreme heat.
07:14We've just gone through severe heat.
07:17And the only protection a city has today is not the air conditioner, it is the tree.
07:23So the value of this...
07:25Give me an example, though, of maybe a city across the world,
07:30maybe of the same size as an Indian city that has actually achieved this balance you're talking about.
07:35Is there other examples where you can ensure that your tree cover is protected
07:40and at the same time you create new residential areas across big cities?
07:47Are there examples, good examples that India should be following?
07:50I mean, I'm shocked to hear from you that if I want to prune a tree,
07:53I have to bring up the Forest Service.
07:55I mean, these are archaic laws that should clearly go away.
07:58You need to decentralize those laws.
08:00But quite apart from that, are there good examples out there which we can follow?
08:05Technically, even our cities have a good green cover.
08:09I mean, Delhi has an amazing green cover.
08:12Okay?
08:12The question for us is how do we balance the growth of the city and manage its green cover?
08:20The question is not to be that every tree, you know,
08:24you can't come to a position to say no tree should be cut
08:27because that's not going to work.
08:30You're going to have to find a way in which your metro lines come through,
08:34your new roads get built,
08:35but you know that there is a plan for development so that this is restrained.
08:42Has anyone done it successfully?
08:44Has anyone done this successfully?
08:46Has it been done successfully anywhere in the world?
08:48See, I'm hesitating to give you an example, Radheep,
08:53because I know the minute I say that is going to be,
08:56oh, but they are so rich.
08:57They have the luxury of doing so.
09:00We don't.
09:01Or they have lower populations.
09:03And they have lower.
09:03That's exactly the point.
09:05That's why I'm not saying it.
09:06I'm saying to you, we can manage this balance,
09:09but we need good decision-making systems
09:13in which we take decisions carefully
09:16and we take decisions in a way
09:18that we know that development will come at a cost.
09:22How do we minimize and mitigate the cost?
09:25But the tragedy you're seeing today
09:27and you're showing on your screen,
09:29and I'm really grateful that you're showing us these visuals,
09:33this tragedy is human-made.
09:35This tragedy is made out of our willful disregard
09:39for urban planning.
09:42And there is no two-way about it.
09:44So if you, in conclusion,
09:46had one suggestion to offer our civic planners,
09:49what would it be?
09:49I mean, the monsoon will come again next year,
09:52as we are seeing with climate change.
09:53It's more ferocious.
09:54It's over a few days,
09:56unlike spread over four months.
09:57So the damage can be even more intensive.
10:00What would that one suggestion be?
10:02My one suggestion to planners would be,
10:06please understand we're living in an age
10:08of enhanced climate change risk.
10:11What you did yesterday is not going to work tomorrow.
10:14So please understand it's going to be more rain
10:18in fewer number of rainy days
10:20and start planning and implementing the change today.
10:25You have no choice anymore.
10:27The one lesson that nature is giving us
10:30is that the time for taking it easy is gone.
10:34The lesson from nature is very clear.
10:37Change or die.
10:39But specifically for trees,
10:41what would that one suggestion be?
10:43So my one suggestion for trees would be,
10:46definitely plan on how you will concretize
10:49without destroying the base of the trees.
10:52That science is very well known across the world.
10:55It is not rocket science.
10:56It can easily be brought in.
10:58Maybe it needs to be brought in into the IRC rules,
11:02brought in into the street planning rules of every city
11:07so that you do so.
11:09And make sure that you do scientific pruning of trees
11:12because it's not just the root structure,
11:14but the fact that the tree itself becomes unstable.
11:18That science of urban trees,
11:21which is today with the forest department,
11:25which earlier was with the horticulture department,
11:28has to become a science in itself.
11:31Every tree should be valued.
11:33Okay.
11:34I'm going to leave it there, Sunita Narayan.
11:36I hope officials in Mumbai, Delhi,
11:38any of our cities, Chennai, Bangalore, Kolkata,
11:41are listening to you carefully.
11:42Actually, this needs to be top of the mind, really.
11:46These are the issues of urban governance
11:48that will decide the fate of this country
11:51as we become more urbanized.
11:53Sunita Narayan, thanks very much for joining us.
11:55As I said, we want to put the environment
11:57at the top of the show
11:58because we want to show that these are the issues
12:01that really matter to the people of this country.
12:04Thank you very much for joining me.
12:05Thank you very much for joining us.
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