- 2 months ago
AI is transforming business, but will technology alone determine success?
We discuss trust, leadership, governance, future talent and the changing role of finance leaders in a rapidly evolving global economy with CIMA President Alfred Ramosedi.
We discuss trust, leadership, governance, future talent and the changing role of finance leaders in a rapidly evolving global economy with CIMA President Alfred Ramosedi.
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00:00All right, coming back at this hour, we'll try to see about artificial intelligence is transforming how businesses operate.
00:07Economic uncertainty continues to test leadership resilience.
00:11And at the same time, companies are facing growing expectations from stakeholders, investors and employees to be more transparent, accountable
00:19and future ready.
00:20And across industries, leaders are being asked to make faster decision-manage, technological disruption, develop new talent pipelines and drive
00:29growth in an increasingly complex environment.
00:33So what will define successful organization in the years ahead?
00:38And will it be technology, talent, trust, leadership or perhaps a combination of all four that I mentioned?
00:45To help us make sense of this shift, we are joined today by Afrid Ramoseidi, President of the Chartered Institute
00:52of Management Accountants, or CIMA, and Co-Chair of the Association of International Certified Professional Accountants.
01:01Hello, Afrid. How are you?
01:02I'm well. How are you doing, Hafiz?
01:04I'm good. I'm excellent. Welcome to ASRO.
01:06Assalamualaikum.
01:07Waalaikumsalam. And welcome to Malaysia.
01:09Thank you so much. I feel welcome already.
01:11So you enjoy Malaysia so far?
01:12I spent two days here, and I'm loving it. I travel back on Sunday, and I can tell you, I
01:20am definitely coming back. I have enjoyed so much.
01:23I'm so welcome by that. So you're coming back to your Johannesburg this Sunday?
01:28100%. So I flew from Johannesburg. I'm based in Johannesburg.
01:32All right.
01:32The association I represent, CIMA, Chartered Institute of Management Accountants, is based in London. The head office is in London.
01:39So I came through on Sunday, and then I came to Malaysia on Tuesday night.
01:45It's never too late for me to congratulate you for the 93, the president of CIMA. So congratulations.
01:51I think that very big responsibility above your head to settle down everything.
01:57So let's start the discussion. So what many will argue are becoming the foundation of business today is trust, which
02:04is an era where companies can access the same technology, capital, and talent pool.
02:10So how should bots and CEOs measure and manage trust as business rather than simply rely on corporate values?
02:18100%. So what we believe going forward, given what's happening, the changes that are happening, and also misinformation that you
02:26see outside there.
02:27Trust is something that we believe is going to be the currency. It's something that's going to differentiate a lot
02:32of people.
02:33What we believe as an organization is actually supporting our members and businesses to build on outcomes-based decision-making.
02:42People are looking forward to us, looking to us to provide support.
02:47And the only people that are going to be able to distill whatever is coming out, the only people that
02:54are going to provide people with sound basis advice are going to be people who are the professional accountants.
03:01Because, you know, I always tell people, Hafiz, that everything that we do comes together in finance, no matter what
03:07you do what.
03:08Any decision that you make, any steps that you do, any bad or good decisions that come out or judgments
03:14that come out always go into finance.
03:17So the financial people are the only ones that are able to provide trust in this environment.
03:24And people are looking forward to us, to us, to be able to help them with trust.
03:28And speaking about decision, where we see today, decision can be data-driven, accountability can still remain human as we
03:36speak right now.
03:37So where should organization at this moment to draw the line between the machine intelligence, as we speak, and executive
03:44responsibility?
03:45We saw these two elements, particularly in highly regulated sectors such as banking or maybe finance.
03:52So you're a POV, right?
03:54You're spot on.
03:55And today you can't even differentiate whether the decision was made by a computer, a machine, or a real person.
04:03We have seen many examples.
04:04Almost cannot be differentiated.
04:05You cannot even differentiate.
04:06Sometimes even when you get a phone call that you think is coming from a bank, people talk about these
04:12things that are called deepfakes.
04:13Basically, deepfakes are people cloning voices of real people, like Hafiz.
04:19I could be thinking I'm talking to Hafiz on the phone, but they actually cloned your voice and they put
04:25it into a machine.
04:26Machine phones me and talks to me as if it's Hafiz.
04:29So where do you know and where do you get the trust?
04:32So the one thing that we emphasize to people is that machines' output, machines' work that gives you analysis, that
04:42provides you with some insights, will never take the decision-making away from you.
04:48So we do tell people that the machines will never make a decision for you.
04:52The machines will never take accountability for the work that they have done.
04:56If the machine produces a number or produces advice when you put information or questions into it, it is still
05:03incumbent on you as an individual to interrogate that.
05:07So we shouldn't be taking away our own professional cynicism, professional judgment away.
05:14So we always advise people that machines are not there to replace people.
05:19They're there to help you.
05:21So it's incumbent on you as an individual to actually utilize the machine, but realize that eventually you are the
05:28one who has to put judgment into place.
05:31Secondly, you shouldn't just be taking information at face value.
05:35The first information that comes through doesn't necessarily mean that it's right.
05:39We've always grown up with that, particularly professional accountants.
05:43We have been taught to be able to interrogate things, look at the things, not that we disbelieve, but to
05:49make sure that whatever you get is authentic, is right, and can be utilized by yourself.
05:54I see that the AI, the machines, tools, whatever, somehow it raises your floor, but reduces your ceiling and you're
06:02trapped in the middle.
06:03So I see that if that's the case, I think this is the push factor.
06:07So the finance institution, this sector should change and they cannot be complacent and be in comfort zone.
06:15100%.
06:15So the truth of the matter is that you cannot reverse this.
06:20We cannot go away.
06:23We cannot wish it away.
06:25Our fees, artificial intelligence is here.
06:27It's embedded in everything that we do.
06:30We need to embrace it.
06:31We need to embrace it.
06:32That's one.
06:33And we shouldn't be our own enemies with this, where we actually want to push it away so much that
06:40we actually lose the part that develops and helps us.
06:43So what I suggest to people is that embracing this will actually enable you to do more with it.
06:52Let me give you an example.
06:53So if you were working in an accounting department producing reports, you probably were limited in terms of what you
07:02could do with your time because you would spend quite an inordinate amount of time, a lot of time, producing
07:09a number, checking that it's right, producing the report.
07:16So if you adopt artificial intelligence and these machine tools in the right way and the right format, you actually
07:26could free yourself so much that you have about an extra 80% time to apply judgment, to provide advice
07:35and look at the things that you will not be able to look at before and improve yourself.
07:40So we believe, honestly, that adoption will aid you and allow you to do more with artificial intelligence.
07:50But there is a debate escalating around about the use of AI as a mission.
07:55Some people take it as a shortcut without taking the information as a responsibility before the sharing or anything.
08:02So what is your thought about this institution, for example?
08:06Yes, the AI and the machine has really helped you a lot to settle down almost everything, cut off your
08:11time, but the responsibility that need to keep very well, the integrity need to be upheld.
08:19A hundred percent, a hundred percent.
08:20Your response on that matter?
08:21And you're so spot on.
08:23And this is a debate that's happening right now.
08:26So there are two things that we're seeing.
08:27One is if you don't adopt AI right, you could lose critical thinking.
08:35Absolutely.
08:36And that's the point that you're talking about.
08:38Mentioning two points here, Hafiz, which is why it's so relevant today to have this discussion, particularly for young entrants
08:47into the market.
08:48People that were there in the past learned technical skills, thinking skills, application skills.
08:56We did not just go into artificial intelligence and ask the question.
09:00We learned it.
09:01We practiced it.
09:03We tried, tested, failed, tried, tested, learned, and gained wisdom.
09:08So what you're now finding is that people now quickly run to artificial intelligence to get the answer, and yet
09:15they don't have the critical thinking skills.
09:17The second one is, to your point, the ethics of it.
09:21Is it ethical?
09:23Or is what comes out going to be so good and ethical that people can apply it appropriately in their
09:31lives?
09:31So what we believe as an association is that in adopting this, you also need to be able to develop
09:37the critical thinking skills.
09:39For those that are adopting it, who do not have the ability to learn the critical thinking skills, we have
09:46developed a simulation process.
09:48Okay.
09:49That takes people through the appropriate models and understanding of how to apply critical thinking skills.
09:56So if you don't know how to put a balance sheet because AI is doing it for you, we have
10:03developed a simulation model that shows you how to do it so that you can understand the outcomes when the
10:11balance sheet comes.
10:12So that gap is actually put together.
10:15The second part is we have worked, we're working very hard with different associations around making sure that when people
10:23build these models, the ethics are taken into account.
10:28The basis of what comes in is right.
10:32So if you look today, if you go to any of the AI tools that are out there and you
10:36put a question into them asking what's happening with this, give me advice about this, sometimes the answers that come
10:44are fed in.
10:45Remember what goes into AI is what people put in.
10:51People design AI.
10:53People also with their biases, their backgrounds, because my background is a little different.
11:00Although we're both human, my background coming from South Africa is a little different to your background.
11:06And my culture is a little bit different to your culture.
11:08So if I'm developing AI from a perspective of a South African, it's going to be definitely different to the
11:14way you want to consume and see the answers.
11:17So we now talking to people and saying, please understand that what goes in comes from a human.
11:23And as a human, when you consume it, understand how you can go step by step to distill it so
11:30that you can understand it and take out the biases.
11:32So getting an answer out doesn't mean it's the end game.
11:35So when you put a question into AI, we believe, because of the part of the critical skills thinking that
11:41we're teaching our people, is that whatever answer comes out doesn't mean that is the last answer.
11:46You still need to take accountability to test that that answer is right.
11:51The bias is right.
11:52Because the way I'm going to apply it in a certain jurisdiction will be different from how you apply it
11:58in another jurisdiction.
11:59That's a wonderful response.
12:01So when we touch and speak about AI, there is a lot of area that need to be tackled.
12:06So we see today companies globally spend billion to endorse the AI things, the missionary, the Internet of Things, for
12:17example.
12:18So we can see that these boards, these CEOs, those leaders, we cannot run away from leading into uncertainty situations.
12:27So how actually AI, critical thinking will help these people to lead into uncertainty situations that we never know, the
12:36uncertainty things.
12:37So how actually, I try to understand how AI and these ethics, this critical thinking will actually help us to
12:47lead the uncertainty.
12:48So one, and it's a good point you're mentioning uncertainty.
12:52Hafiz, the world will never be certain.
12:55You know, we are waiting for a day where everything will be calm, where you will wake up, maybe the
13:03news tell you nothing's happened yesterday.
13:06But today is different.
13:09But that day will never happen.
13:11We will always, every day, uncertainty is something that's here.
13:16That's number one.
13:17And, you know, in terms of uncertainty, the misinformation is at its highest, right?
13:22Because you never know who to trust.
13:25So someone comes through and says, this has happened.
13:27Fear happens in the economy, in different areas.
13:32So uncertainty, we believe, as an organization, is the new normal in terms of what is happening.
13:41So with us, we do believe that this AI, all the tools that you see, are not there to replace
13:50the human.
13:52In fact, the human is in the center of all of this.
13:58AI tools, for the longest time, every time a tool is implemented, every time a new technology is rolled out,
14:06we've always believed and we've already seen through our research that it's always the human that has to apply the
14:12judgment.
14:14And the critical skill, the only way you and I apply judgment, Hafiz, is because we have learned critical skills
14:21thinking.
14:21We've learned to, you know, they talk about learning how to use your gut.
14:27We have learned, and that's why we believe that critical skills thinking, training, and application is more critical now than
14:36ever before.
14:37What we need to be teaching people, what we need to be teaching people is not necessarily application on how
14:42you apply your skills, but also to be critical in how you look at the things.
14:48And the important part here is that AI was never and has never been thought to come and replace your
14:58responsibility to take the final judgment, the final decision.
15:03It is still incumbent on you as a director, as an executive, and as a person to apply the duty
15:10of trust.
15:11They call it a fiduciary duty when you sit on the board because you are single-minded about making sure
15:18that what comes out is good, the decision-making is good.
15:21So AI will never do that.
15:23AI will never come and give you a decision and take accountability for it.
15:27If it's wrong, AI will not come and say, ooh, Hafiz, I'm sorry I gave you wrong advice.
15:33Let's try again.
15:34It is you who has to take accountability.
15:38It is you who has to apply judgment.
15:41And those skills are more needed today.
15:44The training that should happen should actually be only on those critical skills thinking.
15:50So to give you an example, in our world, we always, in a traditional way as a content, used to
15:57teach people only how to put the income statement balance sheet and present the numbers to you.
16:03I'll give you the financial statements.
16:05We know that.
16:06I know how to do that.
16:07I know how to reconcile them and give you reconciliation statements.
16:11It's what is now needed because AI can do that better than me.
16:16It used to take me a month to put it together.
16:18AI does it in a second.
16:21But AI is not going to tell you what to do with that income statement.
16:25Even so, you say AI will not replace humans.
16:28So there's a lot of articles saying that AI will impact mostly on financial institutions.
16:34A hundred percent.
16:34Institution that will replace workers, especially in the front desk.
16:40So shouldn't we worry about the future talents?
16:43Not really.
16:45But the talent now shifts.
16:47So if you remember what's happened in the past, is that every time technology came, it did not shift parts
16:56of the roles.
16:57It shifted what those roles did.
17:00So the entry-level employees in the companies probably never got to do all of their work.
17:08Those tasks that they were doing probably were taking a lot of time.
17:12So let's give you an example.
17:14When you come into a bank, back in the days, you used to fill in forms.
17:19You look young because you look so young, Hafiz.
17:25Maybe you don't remember.
17:26You don't remember those days that people used to fill in a form.
17:31You go in the front desk, you fill in the form because you want to replace your cart that's lost.
17:38You must fill in this form.
17:40You must come with a copy of your ID.
17:43You must come with...
17:44There's a lot of process.
17:45Long process.
17:47So now you can imagine the person who's sitting across doing his role, helping you, is now taking these forms,
17:54going to process them.
17:55Takes the forms from you, goes again into the computer, recaptures what's on the form.
18:01How many of you are standing in the queue?
18:03Maybe 15.
18:04So because I'm now reprocessing things that should actually be automatically sitting in the system, I should just be issuing
18:12you your cart after I authenticated you.
18:14I now cannot even help 15 people.
18:16I'm helping two people.
18:17What we believe this will do is it will help that role better.
18:24That role will now process the replacement of the cart within seconds, and I can help 10 more people.
18:33That's the first part.
18:34The second part is that perhaps there are 10 other roles that we are not fulfilling because of this role.
18:41Why should I be doing this role here when I should actually be advising you when you're looking for a
18:47cart to say, maybe you should not be taking a cart.
18:50Let's talk a little bit about the wealth management portfolio.
18:54I'm not even able to talk to you about that because I'm just handling this.
18:58So we don't, I don't think we should be scared, but what we should be doing is when we adopt
19:03it, we need to know that it's going to free us up to do other things.
19:09And be ready to assess the deal.
19:10I wish we have more time to discuss about this because I think this moment will not enough to cover
19:17everything, but we have to stop right now from here.
19:20Thank you once again, Mr. Afrit, for joining us.
19:23Thank you so much.
19:23You're two days in Malaysia remaining.
19:25So I hope you enjoy this discussion and enjoy Malaysia as well.
19:29I have, I have.
19:29So a safe flight back to Johannesburg.
19:31I wish to see you again.