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India is moving ahead with one of its biggest fighter jet acquisition plans as France submits its detailed proposal for 114 Rafale jets, with 94 expected to be manufactured in India under the Atmanirbhar Bharat initiative.
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00:15Hello and welcome to a special edition of Battlecry. I'm Gaurav Savan. There are
00:19fast paced developments that are taking place on weapons and acquisitions and on
00:23weapons testing front. I'll quickly get to the latest on the procurement and
00:27manufacture of 114 4.5 generation Rafale fighter jets. France has sent its detailed
00:36technical and commercial response for the proposed acquisition of 114 Rafale fighter jets
00:41for the IAF. The proposal is currently under scrutiny. The Defence Ministry's acquisition
00:47wing and the IAF are examining the French offer. That's the latest that's coming in.
00:52The offer was submitted in response to India's letter of request for this. India's big focus
01:00remains Atmanirbhar Bharat in fighter jet manufacturing. The deal envisages substantial
01:06domestic production. 94 of the 114 are to be manufactured in India in partnership with
01:12Indian industry. India's focus also remains on integration of indigenous weapons onto the
01:19Rafale platform. India is expected to closely assess the proposal France has set for integrating
01:25indigenous systems including variants of the Astra air-to-air missile onto the Rafale platform and
01:30perhaps at a later date even the Brahmo supersonic cruise missile. So Daso Aviation's partners are
01:36expected to participate in the Indian production program and the localization effort because localization,
01:42government of India says is extremely important. It promises to be at least as of now approximately a 1.6
01:50lakh crore industry opportunity according to government sources. That's right. The proposed program could
01:58create business opportunities worth around 1.6 lakh crore rupees for Indian companies including defence
02:06manufacturers and provide a major boost to domestic aerospace ecosystem. Though there are questions that
02:13are being asked why are we still focusing on a 4.5 generation aircraft when the neighbourhood is either
02:18already on 5th generation aircraft or acquiring the 5th generation aircraft. Now the manufacturing of the
02:24Rafales in India could expand India's fighter jet production capabilities and increase the role of
02:31private sector in defence firms as part of the Rafale supply chain. So we'll get you many more details of
02:39this. I quickly want to cut across to India today's Shivani Sharma breaking the story on India today.
02:44Shivani give us the timeline and the road map because that is extremely crucial.
02:52Certainly Gaurav, see there is an immediate requirement of these fighter jets for the Indian Air Force
02:58because you know there are unprecedented situation not only on the western border in the northern sector
03:03and we've seen Operation Sindhu where these Rafales have been the force for the Indian Air Force along
03:11with other fighter jets like Su-30 but certainly after MiG-21s were phased out in September last year,
03:17the squadron strength has depleted like never before. We need new fighters and the Tejas Mark 1A and Mark 2
03:25program is also going on but the Mark 1A is already behind schedule by over two years now and Mark
03:332A is
03:34there but it will take some more time so certainly the Rafales are expected to fill that gap the stop
03:40gap arrangement you can say because India has been focusing on indigenous strength,
03:46Atmanirbhartha, indigenous fighters for itself and Tejas Mark 1A, Mark 2A and also the AMCA projects are going on.
03:55So the Rafales that will come in and they will be filling the gap, they will be the major workhorses
04:01for
04:02Indian Air Force will certainly be the bridge for a highway on which India is working to be Atmanirbhar and
04:09to have
04:09its own indigenous fighter jets. Okay, I want to bring in our experts on this broadcast, Shivani for the moment,
04:16many thanks for joining me. I quickly want to bring into this conversation Air Marshal Anil Chopra,
04:21a former Mirage 2000 fighter pilot, an aviation expert, also Air Marshal Sanjeev Kapoor, two of India's foremost
04:29voices on Indian aviation, military aviation, join me on the broadcast. Air Marshal Chopra, there are two
04:35questions. One, the world is already looking at the fifth generation. China is already deploying
04:41fifth generation aircraft in the Tibet autonomous region. Pakistan is looking to acquire fifth
04:47generation fighter jets from China and we're spending a lot of money trying to acquire 114, 4.5
04:55generation aircraft. Are we on the right track, sir, in your view? You know, Gaurav, thank you for having
05:02me on your show again. I must tell you, firstly, that Afal is one of the best aeroplanes that we
05:07can
05:07buy in 4.5 generation today anywhere in the world. It is time-tested with us. It is time-tested
05:13abroad.
05:14It has its 4.5 generation. It's got front hemisphere stealth. It has got 14 hard points, can carry 9
05:23.5 tons
05:23of load. So in all counts, Afal is good. And we have already ordered, we have 36 operating in Air
05:30Force,
05:3026 are coming to the Navy. We have the fuselage being built in India by the Tadas and many, many
05:36other. And MRO has been set up for the M88 engines. So many, many reasons why Afal is the best
05:42bet.
05:43Next is, you talked about the cost. Let me clarify that this amount of around $39 billion that people
05:52are talking about. When you convert the $9 billion that we, nearly $9 billion that we paid for the
05:5836 Rafas and add timelines to it and the normal inflation that takes place, the price is well
06:06established and therefore the price is good. We have already paid for the one-time, you know,
06:13enhancements for the aircraft. We already have place for more aeroplanes on the ground. Nearly 18 will
06:19come in fly-away condition. The remaining will be built in India. As you rightly pointed out,
06:24there'll be an industrial advantage. The fuselage of the entire world will be made in India. Of course,
06:30we will have with Safran an engine deal, which will not only be for M88, MRO, but also for a
06:37new engine
06:38that we might make. So coming to the last part of your question, that is fifth-generation aircraft.
06:43The only fifth-generation aircraft available to us is Su-57. Only 42 have been built. Total ordered
06:51are only 72. It's still evolving, though it is time-tested in Ukraine. But let me also mention that
06:57even in Iran, the fifth-generation aeroplanes did penetrate, but they could not bring an end to the
07:03favorable end to a conflict. So therefore… That's a very interesting point you raise,
07:07that the fifth-generation aircraft that the United States has, while it was able to penetrate through
07:13Iran's air defenses, it wasn't able to get the kind of decisive air superiority or supremacy that
07:21the U.S. may have sought. Very interesting point. Air Marshal Kapoor, is that also your reading going in
07:28for 4.5-generation Rafals? Does that make more sense than looking at acquiring fifth-generation aircraft
07:35from Russia, for example? See, it is a tested aeroplane. It is already flying in our country.
07:43The Indian Navy is buying that. The tech evaluation has been done. We are absolutely short on time.
07:50We do not need to carry out the field trials if we go in for Rafale. The only thing required
07:58after this
07:59offer that has been given by the French is for our acquisition team, along with IAF, to go in. And
08:07once we have this thing, like Master Chopra also pointed out, that in case we get these aeroplanes,
08:13what we are negotiating, the strength is 176, as you pointed out. The Navy, I was reading somewhere,
08:19is looking for additional 31 aeroplanes. That will take the total national strength of Rafales to about
08:25200. That will be the next best after Su-30s. So that forms the backbone after Su-30s with the
08:34upgraded
08:34versions. And don't forget, the ecosystem that we are creating in India by manufacturing the fifth
08:41generation prototype by Tata Advanced, L&T, Bharat Forge, Dynamatics, Data Patterns. So these ecosystems
08:52which are coming up for manufacturing of the fifth generation prototypes, which is slated to fly in
08:572032 or 2033 plus, we have this gap of seven years to fill up. Now, the seven years of the
09:05period, we have
09:06to negotiate with either upgraded Su-30s, like you were pointing out, or going for advanced version of
09:13Rafales. So I think so the government would have taken a consistent decision. Still, it is work in
09:18progress. But like Air Master Chopra pointed out, the fuselage would be manufactured by Tata Advanced.
09:25There is absolutely no denial in that. They are doing it. Just visualize the wings now would be
09:32manufactured again by HL and Tata Advanced. That is the likely scenario that is coming up.
09:37Our own defense industry ecosystem, a large amount of MSMEs that have come up around Pune, Hyderabad,
09:45Bangalore, which are supporting our aircraft manufacturing, are going to get the maximum of
09:521.6 lakh crores, which you are saying would be utilized through indigenous means. Just imagine this
09:58kind of money out of the total 3.25 lakhs, which is the deal. 1.6 lakh crores plowed back
10:05into the
10:06Indian aviation ecosystem, which will find new jobs, new infrastructure, new creation.
10:12If it actually happens, because as of now, that is the potential that is being spoken of.
10:17Should it actually, you know, fructify and actually happen on ground? Because many
10:23a slip between the cup and the lip. But A. Marshall Chopra, one of the biggest issues so far,
10:30was inability to integrate indigenous weapons. Astra missile, for example. And at a future date,
10:37perhaps also the Brahmo supersonic cruise missile. You spoke of 14 hardpoints. If we are able to
10:43integrate Indian weapons and systems, is there now forward movement and absolute clarity on that,
10:50that we'll be able to do it? Yeah, Gaurav, you know, let's be very clear
10:54that India will not accept anything short of permission to integrate Indian weapons.
10:59I must tell you that in our previous contract, also in Rafal, they may not share the source code,
11:05how much we negotiate. We do not know. That will be a closed-door event. But they will have,
11:10and they have already committed that both Astra, Brahmo and any future Indian weapon
11:16will be allowed to be integrated. The issue is only of the foreign weapons, which need to be
11:22discussed and sorted out. Because in foreign weapons, we require a lot of more data for
11:26integration. And some of the foreign companies may not give it where the source code is known
11:30only to the French. So this is… And then it involves multiple countries.
11:33In this case, it would only be India and France. Correct. Absolutely. So my second point I want to
11:39make is, you know, we are not only short of scottons, we are also having legacy systems waiting to be
11:45retired. Jaguar is already the only operators of Jaguar. They have to retire for time. We need
11:51quickly need aeroplanes. We need intimate jet deterrence till we get our own AMCA. And therefore,
11:57this Rafal is the best bet. We can't have another fleet. We already have a large number of fleets,
12:02different types of aeroplanes. So therefore, we must go ahead. And with the French, a lot of things
12:09have already been put into place, as was mentioned about the fuselage, wings, engine,
12:15many other things. Sixty percent of the Rafal will be made in India. That's an indigenization target,
12:21which will happen very, very quickly. As far as the money is concerned, we don't have to get worried,
12:25because money will be paid over a period of next 10, 11 years. So that money will flow in
12:31in a gradual way. And there are enough funds available. The government has been telling us,
12:37the Air Force is telling us, there's no shortage of funds, capital money is adequate for this. Yeah.
12:44And Rafal, you say, and both of you say, we rely on our experts. On India Today, we get you
12:49all
12:49sides of the story. And our experts say, Rafal looks like the best deal as of now. Let me quickly
12:55shift focus to the other big buzz in the defense circles, especially because with the neighborhood,
13:02looking at the fifth generation aircraft, China's not only manufacturing two lines of FGFAs or the
13:07fifth generation fighter aircraft, it's also deployed some in Tibet. And there is talk of Pakistan
13:13acquiring older generation of fifth generations fighter jets from China. Should that be a cause for
13:19major concern for India? Amit reports that India now wants to make, it's very clear that instead of
13:26a stop cap arrangement or acquiring just two squadrons of a fifth generation aircraft, India wants to focus
13:32on own AMCA and upgrade the Su-30 MKIs instead. Now, that's a huge decision to take. And Air
13:42Marshall Kapoor, good decision, not going in for just two squadrons of Su-57Es and choosing to focus
13:50on own AMCA and upgrading the Su-30 MKIs while going in for the Rafals too?
13:56See, even if we order Rafals today, let's take it hypothetically that the deal is signed. It will
14:03take three to four years before the first platform starts to fly. So we are looking at 20, 30 plus
14:10for
14:10the aeroplanes to join our squadrons. Now, coming to your specific questions of Su-57,
14:16like Air Master Chopra said, that they have just a handful and they exhibited this aeroplane in Aero
14:22India. Both F-35 and Su-57 took part in Aero India last year. They both have pitched. Even the
14:31Americans
14:31tried like hell to sell their F-35s to India. Now, the talk is still that we may
14:40are looking at upgrading. There has been no final decision. Now, what I was reading is,
14:45and what makes sense is, that India is looking to diversify from the GE engine ecosystem that we
14:53have created for our indigenous platforms. We have seen in the past that all our projects are primarily
14:59held up because of the backbone of GE engines. So if India agrees to do the ARDA designs and AMCA,
15:09the fifth generation, around the Russian engine, that is the upgraded version AL-41 of the Su-57,
15:16which is more powerful, more… So the Russians will get a supply line to develop all the TechBF,
15:22AMCA's, and the other platforms. So India, in the interim, may go in for the most advanced
15:28refunds, upgrade our super sequoies that we are just flashing the slide, which will have nearly
15:35the avionics and the data integration as that of a Su-57. And in the meanwhile, develop a platform
15:43around a totally new ecosystem. So these are things which are going on, work in progress. And there is
15:50nothing clearly stated at this. But there is no denial that we need advanced aeroplanes and the
15:56adversary which is now already training with the Chinese to get the fifth generation, the exercises
16:05and this thing that pilots are training, I was reading. So it is a cause of worry for us. There's
16:10absolutely no doubt in that. You know, there are two very important points that you've raised and two
16:15important aspects I want to focus on, A. Marshall Chopra. One, our over-reliance on General Electric,
16:22GE 404 engines for our LCA, which has been a cause for concern right from Pokhran tests of sanctions
16:31post-1998 till date, whatever be the reason. It just gives the impression that Americans, while they
16:40claim to be great strategic partners, when push comes to shove, the engines are still, we're still
16:46waiting for the engines and the LCA project is suffering. Absolutely. Gaurav, I must tell you,
16:53mind you, 404 is one of the best engines in the world of its class. You know, I have done
16:58a great analysis
16:59about it. And when we decided that LCA will be around 404, the Mark I and 1A, that time we
17:07had
17:07some great relations. America was trying to woo us, whether it was because of window pacific or other
17:12regions, and the industry, everybody was trying to come. And we were buying American platforms from
17:172008 till now continuously. But we all know that American foreign policy is very clear. In fact,
17:24senior officials have now said that they made a mistake in allowing China to rise. They won't
17:29make such a mistake with India. Also, in the last two years, there's been a trust deficit because
17:34of tariffs, because of sanctions against Russian oil, etc. So they are unreliable to that extent.
17:42They were the ones, after a Pokhran, they had, you know, put, again, limits on military hardware.
17:50So there are issues. But right now, you cannot get out of the GE circuit, not for Mark Ia. Surely,
17:57you
17:58have to be. Now, the ARM car, the first five prototypes, you have to live with the GE 414,
18:05because the aeroplane basic design is more or less frozen. In fact, we are getting ready in a year's
18:10time to taxi it out. So you will have to still go. At some point, you will like to replace
18:15the Indian
18:16engine with Indian IPR, maybe with Safran or Roswell, whatever the government of India will
18:21finally design. So this is our position. Now, as Emerson Kapoor said, there's no doubt that AL-41,
18:27or right now, Su-57, they've also tested the AL-51 on a single aircraft. They are great engines.
18:37They are very good. They're the only ones making 3D engines, because the Americans are using only 2D
18:42engines on the F-35. So my intention is that there are complexities, because once you have frozen
18:49and designed to change an engine, it's a complex exercise. And therefore…
18:53Then you change the entire aircraft if you change the engine, isn't it, sir?
18:56Yes. Because a lot of things change. And mind you, the AL-41 is a much larger engine. It's a
19:02great
19:02engine. I don't deny that. But there will be issues. And therefore, more work will be. My immediate
19:07point I want to make, Gaurav, is that AMCA, we have to move very, very quickly. Firstly,
19:13we must, you know, quickly decide the contractor who's the lead contractor for this, from the Indian
19:20partners. And thereafter, get him to get going, because the timeline, if you're talking of 2027
19:25rollout, we are running out of time. So therefore, we need to quickly push AMCA. And I personally feel
19:32AMCA program and the engine program should be monitored directly at PMO level.
19:36That is the level of importance. It has to be a whole-of-nation approach. Otherwise,
19:41it's not going to be easy. Even if it's required to putting more money on the table,
19:45let's do it. And let us get our R&D best guy. If you can get Nandan Ilkani to sort
19:51out NEET,
19:52get an equivalent guy to, you know, ask each other, whosoever wins the contract to get an equivalent
19:58private sector leader who will manage the property.
20:01Is this timeline too ambitious, given it's already August 2026, as we speak, a 2027 rollout
20:08of a prototype by Marshall Kapoor 1? Is that too ambitious? Will we have to do mid-course correction
20:15here? My second point, is this a calculated risk that we are taking given the current environment,
20:22that instead of going in for Su-57s, and not that I'm advocating Su-57s, I'm only asking the question,
20:28that we go in for Rafale and upgraded Su-30 MKIs and go in for more missiles, you know,
20:37a missile defense shield that we also use in an offensive role, Marshall Chopra. Does that make more
20:42sense than going in for two squadrons of Su-57s? Yeah, so let me first, you know, tell you that,
20:50you know, the AMCA is on. Now, you talked about the rollout. The rollout can take place because
20:56ADA is handling that part. You know, the basic design is done by ADA. So, they will,
21:01we can still arrange for the first rollout. But rollout aircraft may not be. Ultimately,
21:06we have to have five prototypes. Prototypes are the ones who are going to be like the real aeroplanes,
21:11out of which the series production aircraft will come out. But this combination, we are already
21:16doing our air defense systems. Maybe we'll buy another five S-400s. The Kusha is very close.
21:22Some tests have already been done. It's going to have four radars, four missiles. It will be ready.
21:27Fingers crossed on Kusha. Absolutely.
21:29Next year. Akash new generation is also coming up. So, there are, we are working on the air defenses,
21:36and many other things are happening parallelly. So, it's a hard call. You know,
21:40we have to continue to push for AMCA, take these 114 Rafals, and upgrade Su-30 AMKI. And if still
21:48required, and if there are delays, you can always buy interim or two squadrons of Su-57,
21:55even if the decision is taken two years down the line.
21:58But wouldn't that upset the AMCA timelines, because you don't have money for both two squadrons of,
22:03you know, Su-57s, and then continue to pump in money into the AMCA project.
22:08Wouldn't that be adversely impacted, M.A.S.H.I.D.?
22:11Undoubtedly. Undoubtedly. AMCA is our national priority. Let that be very, very clear.
22:18Only if the threat increases, if the, you know, Western border gets immediately, but I don't think
22:26it's coming. The latest reports are that they may not get J-35 immediately. But there are payment issues.
22:33The Chinese are tired of not receiving the interest on the money they have pushed into
22:38CPAC. So, therefore, the Chinese are asking first to show us the money and then only. And there are
22:43still to sort of many other issues with them. So, therefore, that may not happen in a hurry.
22:49But the fact that you mentioned the J-20s are already seen in Hotham, in Xinjiang,
22:55they have been seen flying in Tibet. So, there are issues. We have to contend with the fifth
23:00generation threat with nearly 400 already inducted. Some are even saying 500 are inducted.
23:05So, in the final part of this program, I quickly want to take you through the good news story.
23:12India has successfully test-fired the medium-range ballistic missile Agni-4 from the integrated
23:19test range at Chandipur in Orissa. The Ministry of Defense in a statement said that this particular
23:25launch also validated all operational and technical parameters of Agni-4. The test was carried out under
23:33the AGs of the Strategic Forces Command, the SFC, and, of course, the Defense Research and Development
23:41Organization, the DRDO. The Defense Ministry said that the successful launch marks yet another milestone in
23:47strengthening the country's strategic deterrence capabilities. Timing, announcement, and the tests,
23:57they're extremely critical. Air Marshal Chopra, each time a NOTAM goes up, a notice to airmen,
24:05and there is a missile test, and when you see the ranges of that NOTAM, Agni-4, the test-fired,
24:13you know, being test-fired, the operational and tech parameters being validated. What is that big
24:19signal that India is sending out at this point of time, sir?
24:22Gaurav, I must say with pride that our missile program has been doing extremely well. Every few
24:29days you hear another NOTAM and the whole world wonders what is coming next. You know, Agni-4 is
24:35a 4,000-kilometer range. It can carry 1,000 kgs of weapons. And in the last report that we
24:43got from
24:44CIPRI, we know that we already have 190, you know, warheads. We've already tested the MIRV version.
24:54We have tested the Agni-P. The fact that whenever the SFC is getting involved directly, we have also,
25:00you know, there are reports that at least 12 of our nuclear warheads are already live on submarines.
25:07That means that triad has become absolutely live. All these things I'm quoting is from CIPRI's latest
25:13report. So, therefore, there is action unfolding. There is clearly a queue of missiles right up to
25:21at least six, which are all getting ready. And we are, you know, going to have these tested. The
25:29fact that SFC is directly involved, that means we are already getting ready to perhaps position these
25:35weapons operationally. That's the question I was coming to. With the Strategic Forces Command
25:41being involved in Marshall Kapoor, when you look at the overall security scenario and India's security
25:47envelope, what's the big picture that emerges when you do a SWOT analysis? Our strengths,
25:52our weaknesses, our opportunities and the threats and the roadmap that India is taking?
25:57This is exactly what we have answered in the book that is going to be released on 28th,
26:02August, this question which you just asked. See, if you look at it, the India's rise, especially after
26:09Opsindur. India is now fast emerging as a defence production nation. Gone are the days when we were totally
26:18reliant. And just see the beeline of nations that are approaching India to share our missiles, like
26:25Master Chopra just said. Missile technology has gone many a force. The BrahMos has already been given to
26:33Vietnam, Philippines, Indonesia, the UAE and other countries. So these missile testing, where and when
26:41is done in the Indian Peninsula, the complete world looks up to us. And the plan is rolling out. And
26:48my
26:48complements to the private industry, which are contributing. And now, unlike in the past, the
26:56large amount of private sector participation has begun in manufacturing of our missiles.
27:02And let that be the last word on this part of the show. I want to thank Air Marshal Chopra
27:07and
27:07Air Marshal Kapoor for joining me. India emerging as a big defence manufacturer and exporter. That's
27:18very much for joining me. This is a story we'll be tracking very closely. That is all I have for
27:22you on this special broadcast. Many thanks for watching.
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