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Mary Bell - True Crime Documentary
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00:00Mary Bell committed two dreadful murders, but her case does give us hope that children
00:07can change.
00:09The first time I met Mary Bell, I felt that something bad could happen involving this
00:16girl.
00:16I believe that people have the propensity to be bad when they are born, and Mary Bell
00:22was one of these people.
00:24I just don't think the law, the policing, or the government had any idea what to do
00:32with these girls.
00:33In 1968, the close-knit community of Scotswood in Newcastle was torn apart by the brutal murder
00:42of two young boys.
00:44What made the killings even more shocking was that their attacker was ten-year-old Mary
00:50Bell, herself just a child.
00:53So what turns a child into a cold-blooded killer?
00:57And at what age should they be accountable for their actions?
01:19I'm Fred Dinich, and I'm investigating some of Britain's most infamous murderers. I want
01:25to know what motivates someone to kill.
01:28And in a case like Mary Bell, what impact that has, not just on the local community, but on
01:36the nation as a whole.
01:39Mary Bell was born on 26 May 1957 in Newcastle to a 17-year-old Catholic girl, Elizabeth McCricket,
01:48known as Betty.
01:50Mary started life as an unwanted baby, and she would be reminded of this throughout her
01:56childhood.
01:58The shocking murders committed by ten-year-old Mary Bell became headline news.
02:04Someone who studied the cultural conditioning of a killer is criminologist Professor David
02:11Wilson.
02:13Mary Bell, tell me about her as a child.
02:17Elizabeth, her mother, marries a man called Billy Bell, and therefore he, in effect, becomes
02:23Mary's stepfather.
02:25Mary Bell grows up not really knowing who her real father is, being told sometimes not to
02:31call Billy Bell, whom she thinks of as her father, not to call him that, but instead to
02:37call him an uncle.
02:38Elizabeth found it very difficult to bond with her daughter, Mary.
02:43Not wanting her daughter was one thing, but Betty abusing her was another.
02:49She was a drama queen and loved attention, and this she found through Mary.
02:55There is some evidence, I think, in reading around the case that Betty Bell had
03:02Munchausen syndrome, probably by proxy, by which I mean that she would often try and harm Mary
03:09Bell as she was growing up, or indeed give her away to complete strangers or to other members of
03:15the family.
03:16Almost from the age of one, there was a circumstance in which Mary Bell got access to her grandmother's
03:23medicine, which she took and had to have her stomach pumped, and if that hadn't happened,
03:30it was quite clear that Mary Bell would probably have died.
03:33Tensions between Betty Bell and her family heightened as their concern for Mary's
03:39well-being became overwhelming.
03:41She walked into an adoption agency on one occasion and encountered a woman who was crying and saying
03:48she was emigrating to Australia and she was too old to adopt, so Betty Bell says,
03:53take this one, and literally gives her Aunt Mary to walk away with, and it was only through the
03:59intervention of Mary's aunties that they were able to get Mary back.
04:04The Scotswood district of Newcastle grew rapidly during the Industrial Revolution,
04:11but by the 1950s industries were dying, unemployment was rising, it had become a deprived area.
04:20Indeed, Scotswood had the highest crime rate in Britain and the highest rate of alcoholism.
04:26One policeman who remembers the area well is former detective chief inspector Ron Wright.
04:38It was predominantly working class, the housing stock was very old, it was run down,
04:44the Newcastle council were undergoing a whole area of re-gentrification of the area, so you had streets
04:50of houses which are derelict, with people living in between the derelict houses. But it was a community,
04:55there was maybe a different perception on what children did. Children just used to go out in the
04:59morning and not be seen. Nobody looked for them, they might ask, you know, have you seen Johnny or
05:05somebody? Oh yes, I saw him down the road, Mrs such and such, give him a jam sandwich. Oh that's
05:09fine,
05:10yeah. Whereas today, you don't let them have your sight. The case of Mary Bell asks some difficult
05:16questions about nature versus nurture. Does an unstable, abusive environment play a role in producing a
05:24murderer? Or are some children just born evil? One early influence which would have an effect on the
05:32young Mary was her mother Betty's role in society. It is quite clear that Betty Bell was a prostitute.
05:41She sold sexual services which were related to sadomasochism. And often in later life, Mary
05:48Bell would talk about how she was involved with the scenarios that Betty Bell engaged in with her
05:57clients. She was used as a prop. She was told that she was playing blind man's buff. In other words,
06:04that she would grow up in a set of circumstances in which she was being sexually abused. Crucially,
06:10one of the services that a prostitute would offer if that prostitute was selling sadomasochism would be
06:17asphyxiation. Asphyxiation is often seen as heightening the pleasure that a man would receive
06:26when he was orgasming. And one can imagine that Mary Bell would encounter those sets of circumstances
06:33on a number of occasions. In 1968, Mary struck up a friendship with her next door neighbour, Norma Bell.
06:42Norma was two years older. Her pretty features and mannerisms made her look quite childlike, younger than
06:50her 13 years. Mary and Norma quickly became best friends, but the association brought out the dark
06:59side of their characters, and they soon began causing trouble in the neighbourhood.
07:05They were often fantasising, dreaming about being in a western, about living on the run, and of the police
07:14having to stop their activities. They seemed to encourage each other to go slightly further than they
07:21might have gone, should they not have encountered each other. Mary and Norma's friendship escalated from
07:28being mischievous together to committing petty crime. This didn't escape the eyes of the law. Former chief
07:36inspector Peter Moore brought the children to justice. Mary Bell, when did you first come across her?
07:44Well, I was the first detective to give Mary Bell her first conviction. I was investigating menial crime,
07:56really, larceny of money from a gas meter in a tenemented building near the Scotsford. And my enquiries
08:04ended up arresting Mary Bell and her best friend, Norma Bell. And I just couldn't believe how streetwise Mary
08:13was during an interview in the presence of her mother, Betty. For example, you would ask her a question
08:22and she would say, no comment. Ten-year-old, no comment. I just couldn't believe how
08:30she would use these type of words, a ten-year-old, to a police officer. Both girls were charged with
08:36theft and pleaded guilty. Mary and Norma were conditionally discharged as it was their first
08:43offence and as they were both under 16. After the case, Betty, Mary's mother, asked if she could
08:51speak to me privately. Betty absolutely lambasted me for taking the girls to court at such a young age.
09:00She was shouting and bawling. I don't know what made me say it, but I recall saying to them,
09:06if you two ladies don't look after your two children, don't supervise them a bit better,
09:13they'll be in much more bother than a gas meter in the near future.
09:18The two girls' behaviour soon moved from petty theft into abuse and violence.
09:24Norma and Mary have been involved in two instances with younger children. The first on the 11th of
09:31May, in relation to a three-year-old boy called John Best, who is found bleeding profusely from his
09:38head, sobbing continually. Mary and Norma take him to get help at the local pub. They say they've
09:46discovered him having fallen down. He'd fallen down an embankment. Well, there's obviously an element
09:52in which this has just been made up, and they probably did the harm to John Best, who happened
09:58to be Mary's cousin. John Best refused to say who had pushed him. The incident was considered an
10:06accident. The second occurrence involving Mary and Norma saw the two girls terrify another young child.
10:14The following day, there's an incident involving a girl, a seven-year-old girl called Pauline Watson,
10:20whose mother calls the police and says that either Mary or Norma had tried to strangle Pauline and
10:28indeed there were marks to her neck. The two girls were given cautions and warned as to their future
10:35conduct. But this had all been heard before. Social services knew about Norma Bell and her family.
10:43She was one of eleven children. So quite clearly, often social services had to become involved
10:49through material need. With Mary Bell, social services were involved partly because of the work
10:55that her mother did. And Billy Bell was, of course, somebody who was regularly getting into trouble with
11:01the police. But remember, both Bell girls turned up at school, were wearing appropriate clothing, and
11:10therefore didn't seem to be engaging in any activity that might have brought them to even greater
11:17attention to the social services who might therefore have wanted to have intervened in a much more direct
11:22way. On the 25th of May 1968, three young boys foraging for scrap wood made a gruesome discovery in a
11:33derelict house in St Margaret's Road in Scotswood. There, lying on his back amongst the rubble, was four-year-old
11:42Martin Brown. He was dead. Was it an accident? Or had something more sinister taken place?
11:58I'm Fred Dynage, and I'm investigating the case of Mary Bell. I want to know what turned a child
12:06into a killer. Ten-year-old Mary Bell and her neighbour, 13-year-old Norma Bell, had been terrorising their
12:14local community of Scotswood with their criminal activities and bullish behaviour. But on the 25th of
12:22May 1968, a shockwave hit the community, with the discovery of four-year-old Martin Brown's body.
12:31Three boys were foraging in the disused buildings, looking for firewood. As they enter one of the houses,
12:40number 85, they discover a boy's body lying in front of a window with his arm outstretched and some
12:48blood coming from his mouth. One of the boys takes fright that's discovered the body, runs to get out of
12:55the building to get help. That means that some of the workmen who are involved in the demolition come
13:01into the building. One of the workmen, Gordon Collinson, ran to call an ambulance, whilst the other,
13:08John Hall, tried to give the boy the kiss of life. Martin's mother, June, was called and watched as
13:15the men attempted to resuscitate him. She knew, deep down, that her little boy was gone. Martin's two
13:23sisters, Sharon and Linda, have lived with the death of their brother for over 40 years. What has your
13:31said about what happened on that fateful day? She'd gone shopping up to Benwell with her mam.
13:42My dad was watching Linda and Martin. Martin had left the house and went to a shop which was at
13:53the top
13:53of the road. He left from there and obviously bumped into Mary and Norma on his way back down
14:00the street. And what happened after that? Well, obviously, just from what my mam said,
14:07is there was a commotion at the top of the street and a neighbour had knocked to say that something
14:11had happened to Martin. It had been, you know, he'd had an accident because he was found in the old
14:17houses. Obviously, when she got up there, she said she knew, you know, instantly she knew it was
14:25something bad. There'd been some workmen up there and there was a workman trying to give him mouth-to-mouth
14:30association on the floor before the ambulance got there. And she said she'd just seen a little
14:37trickle of blood. For a long time, she just thought it was an accident. Do you know what I mean?
14:41The thought
14:41that he had sort of fell because of what old houses. How had Martin died? There were no broken bones
14:49and no signs of physical violence. The only thing that lay nearby was an empty pill bottle.
14:57But the police had no real reason to suspect foul play. No, and in fact, Martin Brown's body was
15:04subject to autopsy. There was absolutely nothing there that could be seen as having
15:11caused his death. Asphyxiation was considered but ruled out because there were no marks to the throat.
15:17They thought this was simply a tragic accident of a small boy. Martin Brown's death was declared
15:23accidental. The police had no evidence and no leads. Meanwhile, a curious Mary and Norma were making
15:32their presence known to the bereaved family. Mary Bell and Norma had knocked on my mom's door
15:40and asked to see Martin. And my mum had said, look, I'm sorry, he's dead. And Mary Bell had turned
15:45around
15:45and went, oh, I know he's dead. I just wanted to see what he was like. She wanted to see
15:48him in his
15:49coffin. Coffin. What did your mum think about that? She just thought she was a young child that,
15:54you know, she lived in the street. Obviously, if kids are cured, she just went, oh, don't be silly
16:00and get yourself on your way. Obviously, not for a million years did she think at that point that
16:07this little young girl was responsible for her son's death. The strange behaviour continued. A teacher
16:13uncovered more incriminating evidence drawn by Mary on the 27th of May 1968. Mary kept a journal,
16:24a news journal in her class in which she spoke about the body of Martin being found and gave evidence
16:32within the journal of issues that only the person who had been involved in that crime would have
16:40known about. For example, that his body had been found by workmen. She drew a pill and labelled it a
16:47tablet that he may have taken, which may have led to his demise. There were also a number of
16:56notes left, clearly childish notes, but claiming to have killed Martin Brown. And therefore, there are
17:04quite obviously behaviours being exposed here in relation to Mary Bell and Norma Bell trying to come to
17:13terms with what they may have done. On the same day, teachers arriving at the Woodlands Crescent Day
17:19Nursery in Scotswood found the centre had been trashed. Tell us about what happened at the nursery.
17:27The two girls broke into the West End Nursery. They trashed the place and they wrote
17:36notes, various things on the walls pertaining to murder and possible further murders and wrote some
17:46bad language. They were actually arrested later on and the place was alarmed after that and they were
17:52caught when the alarm went off a second time before they'd done any damage. Police discovered childlike
17:59notes admitting to the murder of Martin Brown. The notes read, I murder so that I may come back and
18:07we did murder Martin Brown, but they were quickly dismissed as children messing around. Handwriting
18:16experts were called in to examine the handwriting found in the Woodlands Crescent Nursery and also
18:23the handwriting from Mary Bell's diary where she drew the figure of young Martin having been found
18:32in the derelict house. And what the experts found beyond any reasonable doubt was that Mary Bell had written
18:43part of the notes and Norma had written part of them. What Mary would do was perhaps write part of
18:52one word
18:52and then Norma would finish off that word in her handwriting. And then perhaps Norma would start
19:01another word, not finish it, and Mary would finish that particular word. However, there was no firm
19:08evidence to place Norma and Mary at the scene. Just one month after Martin Brown's death, a dark cloud
19:17fell upon the summer holidays. Three-year-old Brian Howe had gone missing. Brian Howe was three years,
19:25four months. He was playing with his friend John. They were seen throughout the day playing in the street.
19:34Girls were cycling past on bicycles. Brian didn't go very far without his beloved dog whom he called Lassie.
19:41At one point, John's mother came out and gave them a ticking off because they were sitting very close to
19:47where some buildings were being pulled down. Not only did she give the two boys a ticking off,
19:53but she told the workmen that they should be really careful as well because she was worried
19:57a falling brick might hit either of the two boys.
20:02On the 31st of July 1968, Pat Howe, Brian's sister, arrived home to find that her younger brother was
20:11out playing. At four o'clock, he'd still not appeared, so Pat set out to look for him.
20:18His sister kept asking questions. Have you seen our Brian? Do you know where he is? And crucially,
20:25she also asked Mary and Norma. And Mary said, oh, I think I saw him playing on the Tin Lizzy,
20:32which was this waste ground in Scotswood. But Norma said, oh no, he never plays there.
20:38The police searched the local area. Just a few hours later, they discovered a body
20:44on a piece of waste ground in Scotswood. It was clear Brian Howe had been murdered.
21:09In 1968, just two months after the death of Martin Brown, Brian Howe had been murdered.
21:17Mary Bell and Norma Bell were now responsible for the deaths of two young boys. Brian had been out
21:23playing and had failed to return home. A search of Scotswood had revealed a gruesome scene.
21:30Detective Peter Moore was the first to arrive. I had been on duty in Scotswood that evening,
21:37and it was after 11 o'clock at night. And a member of the public who knew who I was,
21:43knew I was a
21:44detective, told me that a lot of people were around an area called Tin Lizzy, an area of waste ground.
21:52And I remember standing on this huge concrete block, looking down on the body of young Brian.
22:03And from where I was standing, I could see that he was covered with long strands of grass and weeds
22:10in
22:11a poor attempt to try and hide the body. He had a cut on his nose and he had froth
22:17coming out of his
22:18mouth and it was obvious he was dead. Three-year-old Brian Howe had been strangled. Chillingly,
22:25the injuries seemed experimental rather than vicious, and they pointed towards the culprit being a child too.
22:34Was it obvious to you that it could have been, the wounds could have been inflicted by a child?
22:42Just the way an attempt had been made to hide the body with pieces of grass and weeds and
22:51the little cut on his nose, just the way he was lying. I immediately thought,
22:58we're looking for a juvenile here. I couldn't believe in the first instance that I saw Brian
23:08that an adult could have done this. Unlike Martin Brown, Brian Howe had physical injuries.
23:16He'd been mutilated. Former CID Detective Inspector Albert Kirby has investigated a number of high profile
23:25child killers and has studied the case of Mary Bell in depth. They'd strangled him and then,
23:33not satisfied with that, actually gone back and made marks on the body. The mark on the body,
23:39which was probably caused by a razor blade, was the initial M. What was the M for? Was it for
23:45Mary? Was it an N with an additional part in for Norma? You know, and I think it shows a
23:52high degree
23:53of callousness on part of both girls to actually go back and to do that even after death. During the
24:01first
24:0224 hours, the police visited over a thousand homes in the Scotswood area and questioned more than 1200
24:11children. It wasn't until the second murder, I believe, that they realised there was something
24:19more sinister going on because obviously they just thought Martin was an accident and it wasn't until
24:25Brian Howe that they realised, you know, that something else had gone on untoward.
24:31I mean, my mum had to put up with them trying to insinuate that because they found some pills by
24:37him, insinuate that he'd taken these pills from the house, gone to this flat and terraced house
24:43and taken some sleeping pills or whatever they were, trying to insinuate that they were my mum's,
24:48which they weren't. My mum didn't take sleeping pills or anything like that before Martin was murdered.
24:53So they tried to insinuate Martin had taken the pills?
24:55Yeah, yeah, because they couldn't find any marks on Martin. There was like no bruising or anything.
25:04Most children were eliminated from the police inquiries, but Mary and Norma's names kept popping up.
25:11They'd already changed their statements twice and their evidence didn't add up.
25:16The man who led the inquiry was a detective chief inspector called Dobson,
25:22and he had that uneasy feeling about Mary. And on the day of Brian Howe's funeral,
25:30he saw Mary outside of church. He didn't like her reaction to what was going on.
25:36She thought it was funny and humorous, what was happening. And all of a sudden, he realised,
25:42we've got a problem here, and realised once and for all, that that girl was actually
25:50implicit in not only Brian Howe's murder, but also the other events, and then caused her to be brought in.
25:58Both Mary and Norma denied any responsibility for the murder of Martin Brown.
26:04However, both agreed they'd been with Brian Howe on the day of his death. According to Mary,
26:12a maniacal Norma had strangled Brian. When asked if she was afraid that Norma might kill her,
26:20Mary replied, she would not dare, because I would turn around and punch her one.
26:26She'd admit being there, she'd admit what had taken place, but putting the blame onto Norma.
26:33It was her fault. She did. I didn't. And that's how it went all the way along. And people I've
26:40spoken to
26:40who knew her at that time said she was 11, but she was probably 16 or 17. And that was
26:46the difference.
26:47This unique ability to lie and then recount and justify a lie later on. Now, that is something which is
26:57not
26:57usual amongst somebody so young. But I think the whole picture that you see is of a young girl,
27:0411, but very, very much more mature, who had that street credibility and the mouse up here,
27:12to actually try and kid people and lie away out of trouble and blame Norma, who was perhaps the softer,
27:20easier option for everything that's gone on. Mary Bell was just 10 years old when she committed her
27:27first murder. But was she old enough to understand the consequences of her behaviour? Professor David
27:34Wilson has invited me to find out at what age should a child be held criminally responsible for their
27:41actions. Now, Fred, the most controversial aspect of this case is the age at which these awful crimes
27:49were committed. And so I've invited along some children and their parents to discuss age and
27:56responsibility, particularly criminal responsibility, with us today. Okay, well, let's start with something
28:02fairly simple. Pets. Who's got pets? Hands up if you've got a pet. Okay. Harry, what have you got?
28:10I've got a dog. You've got a dog? What sort of dog is it? Er, he's a Labrador Retriever. Let
28:15me ask your
28:16dad a question. If you had taken Harry to a pet store to buy a pet, what age would he
28:25have to be to legally
28:26own an animal? 16. 16. Do you think that's about the right age or do you think that's too late?
28:32Do
28:32you think children should be able to cope with animals much younger? I think children can cope
28:37with the animals younger, but it's the legal responsibility and the maturity of a kid.
28:43And I think 16 might be still a bit young. At what age in this country, in England and Wales,
28:50are children held to be criminally responsible for their behaviour? Is it 14? 14? This lady says 10.
28:59What do you think, sir? I thought it was about 13, actually. And the correct answer is... 10. You're
29:04criminally responsible at your age. And if you lived in Scotland, it would be... 8. Which is amazing.
29:12Let me ask the children, and be very honest with me, do you feel that you know the difference between
29:18right and wrong? You don't feel you know the difference? Not really, no. In what way?
29:24Um, well, at school we don't really get told what's right or wrong. We get told off for things,
29:32but we don't really get told off why we... why it's wrong. Do you as parents think you should also
29:41be
29:41held responsible if they commit a crime for which they'll be held criminally responsible? There's lots
29:47of noises. Why? Please, why do you think that? Because if a child says under 18, I think also
29:54the parents should have been held accountable. I think that we live in a society where it's easier
30:00to make excuses than actually take responsibility. And somewhere along the line, where the child at 10
30:06is not able to make the decision, the parents should be there, and it is the parent's responsibility
30:11to bring the children up. What about the gentleman at the back? Do you think we've got it about right,
30:16or do you think we should be trying to raise that? Yeah, the problem is we've just mentioned
30:19criminal responsibility. We're not differentiating between something like murder and
30:24petty shoplifting, something like that. Well, let's talk about murder then. Do you think a young
30:29person who's committed murder can change, can be converted? Obviously not putting them in an
30:36environment where everybody else has done something wrong as well. If you take them away from
30:44effectively normal society and bring them up in a more of a criminal society, then how are they going
30:50to get better? Yeah. Is that the same? Do you all believe that children can change? Even if a child
30:54has
30:54done something really bad, can they change their behaviour? We tend to mould our children into being good
31:00citizens, good people, don't we? That is our aim as being parents. Obviously we'd like levels of accountability
31:08when we talk about others, but yes, a child has more chance of change than say if someone's killed
31:17somebody who's an adult. For the Newcastle police in the 1960s, the concept of an 11 year old and a
31:2413
31:24year old committing murder was simply unbelievable. Mary and Norma were now in custody for the murder
31:32of two young boys. Norma demonstrated how Mary pinched Brian's nose. He started turning purple and tried
31:40to push Mary's hand away. Norma claimed she had left while Brian was still alive. But if she was truly
31:49disturbed by Mary's behaviour, why did she return with Mary to make marks on Brian's body?
31:56I recall there was a pair of scissors beside Brian's body and a search, what you call a fingertip
32:06search was arranged and under a rock just beside the concrete block where Brian's body was found,
32:12under this rock was found a razor blade. And it had the word Gillette on the razor blade.
32:20And Mary Bell, during some of the interviews, mentioned this razor blade and mentioned the word
32:27Gillette. So that wouldn't have been known to anybody except the person who had used the razor blade.
32:35The police asked both the girls, do you know it's wrong to squeeze a little boy's throat?
32:41Both answered, yes. 11 year old Mary Bell and 13 year old Norma Bell were arrested for the murders
32:49of Brian Howe and Martin Brown. They were now to face the consequences for their actions.
33:01I'm Fred Dinage and I'm reinvestigating the case of child killer Mary Bell and the horrific murders of
33:09Martin Brown and Brian Howe. On the 7th of August 1968, Mary Bell and Norma Bell had been arrested for
33:19the
33:19murder of the young boys. This would be the first time in British history that two children
33:26would be charged with murdering two other children. The trial began at the Newcastle Assizes on the
33:335th of December 1968. Two girls were stood in the dock right behind where you're sat now.
33:42Describe the scene to me. Well you're in a court two of the older assizes because this was your size
33:48court in them days with the highest court in the land for judging people with murder. They moved it
33:57from court one to court two because they said it was less imposed and now they're looking at the
34:01fabric of the building the only thing that's less imposed is the fact that the dock here doesn't have
34:05grills around it and you still have the judge sitting up high and you have all the barristers down
34:10here. The fact that an 11 year old and a 13 year old could have murdered two little boys electrified
34:18the
34:18country. How did these two young girls react? How did they behave? I think Norma was nonplussed. I don't
34:27think she had the mental capabilities. I wouldn't understand what was really going on. Mary was a totally
34:32different. She was a bright alert girl and she was watching everything that was going on. I think a couple
34:39of times she actually had a little outburst herself and then between all this going on
34:44my mother was playing the drama queen. Did Mary Bell understand do you think what was being said what
34:51was happening around? I think she understood where she was and what was going on. My wife was talking to
34:57um she recollected talking to a police woman who was she worked with a few years ago who was um
35:05uh looked after Mary Bell and said she had horrible feelings when she was with her. She felt really
35:11really uncomfortable. She said there was something about the child that really unnerved her. Sufficient
35:17to say that she couldn't sleep at night. Strange thing for a police woman a lot of service to to
35:22say.
35:23On December the 17th 1968 Newcastle Assizes found Norma Bell not guilty of both counts of murder. She was
35:33placed under psychiatric supervision. Mary Bell was found to be culpable in the murders of both Martin
35:40and Brian. The verdict read guilty of manslaughter because of diminished responsibility. She was
35:48sentenced to detention for life. What was your reaction when you heard the verdict?
35:57I have to be honest and say it didn't surprise me. It certainly didn't surprise me that Norma
36:02was found not guilty. Why? She was totally under the influence of Mary.
36:10But she must have known what she was doing. I don't think she did. I really don't think she did.
36:17She had very little to say during the course of the interview with me for the
36:24the gas meter offense. Very little to say. What was the reaction in the courtroom here when that
36:30verdict was announced? Well apart from the histrionics from their mother and whaling and
36:37a gnashing of teeth and such like. I think the rest of the public gallery fully expected it. What about
36:43Mary herself? How did she react? Non-committal. Wasn't really that concerned. I think she fully
36:49expected it. The other girl who'd been in tears on enough throughout the whole of the trial.
36:59She was just so shed away and obviously dawned on her that she was going to go home.
37:06The public reaction was appalled yet restrained. There was a sense of social responsibility and
37:14acknowledgement of social failure. Mary had had a devastating childhood herself. After the trial she
37:22was named both monster and victim. Mary Bell took the full brunt of it if you like. Norma Bell didn't.
37:30Was that right? Was that fair? I know from the people who I've known for many many years who were
37:37on
37:37on the inquiry who were in court and they were bitterly disappointed that Norma Bell wasn't convicted
37:44because that they felt and that they the evidence supported it but not accepted by the court.
37:51Take the Sampis incident which happened in that May. The three girls there spoke of the elder girl who
37:57was Norma doing the strangulation. Now that evidence was there and available and there's a lot of
38:05disappointment that Norma wasn't convicted because literally you couldn't get a cigarette paper between
38:12the culpability the responsibility of both girls. Mary spent five years in secure units and approved schools
38:21before being transferred to prison at the age of 16. On May the 14th 1980 Mary Bell was released from
38:32Ascom
38:32Grange prison in York. The 23 year old had been detained for 12 years but had now been deemed safe
38:40for society.
38:43As far as we know Mary went on to lead a normal life in society and in 1984 had a
38:51daughter of her own.
38:53In 2003 the family were granted lifelong anonymity.
38:59If Mary Bell was a singular individual I don't believe she should have anonymity. I think people
39:04deserved to have open justice and say things. But we have an innocent person involved in this equation
39:10which is the daughter. There is no reason why she should suffer because of what our mother did.
39:18And she would suffer if she was, if her anonymity wasn't, erm, sacrosant.
39:24How did you feel about the fact she was given anonymity?
39:28I'm mortified. I'm mortified.
39:30Just so unfair.
39:31I don't think she should have it.
39:32It's just, she's gone out, she's been her two little children
39:35and she seems to have been protected by our law, the law of our land.
39:40Your brother now would be what, 47 years of age?
39:44Does it make you sad that you could have had a brother?
39:49That's the worst bit.
39:51Yeah.
39:51That's the worst bit, just wondering what he would have been like.
39:55Erm, would we have looked like him?
39:58How many kids would he have had? What would he have done?
40:01I mean, I always get Sharon two birthday cards because she would have gotten two birthday cards
40:06on our birthday, don't I?
40:08And I do the same for you.
40:09Sharon does the same for me and it's just the fact that he's not,
40:12you know, what would he have been like?
40:13And you just always feel like you would have been so proud of him.
40:17Yeah.
40:17I don't know why, but it's just...
40:20We just live our lives to the full, don't we, Farron?
40:23Yeah.
40:25Former CID Detective Inspector Albert Kirby has investigated high profile child murderers
40:32such as the killers of Jamie Bulger.
40:34He believes childhood experiences are not just to blame for the horrific crimes.
40:41Mary Bell, Venables, Thompson, what are your honest feelings about them?
40:47Now, I'll probably be shot down by saying this, but I honestly believe, as I would say as an
40:54experienced investigator and as a Christian, that sadly we have to accept that people do come into this
41:04life. They don't need an excuse. They are evil and it would need some form of trigger to promote that
41:11evilness.
41:12It's not a concept that sits with many people because they feel that everyone comes into this world
41:20as an equal without any evilness. But very, very sadly, you saw with Mary Bell, at 10, 11 years of
41:28age,
41:29a real build-up of evilness. You know, and sadly, after Thompson and Vanderwood were convicted of James
41:37Bulger's murder, there's only too many cases now where you can turn around and show that evilness,
41:44per se, without any excuse, is present and comes out in young people. And what do you deal with these
41:52young
41:52people? How do you deal with them? Do you try to justify what it, or do you accept there is
41:57a problem and then use
41:59the skills of people who are able to try and treat that problem to prepare them for later on in
42:05life?
42:06Was Mary Bell born evil or did she just become evil?
42:10Evil sort of has connotations of the devil and the occult and it doesn't really gel anymore,
42:15but I think actually people have the propensity, are born with the propensity to be bad. How it
42:22manifests itself, I don't know what triggers it off. But it's too easy and it's too glib to say,
42:27well, it's our upbringing. It's a socio-economic deprivation. Because there's countless people in the
42:32same area. I think people are born with the capability of being bad. What brings that badness out,
42:40I don't think we'll ever know the trigger. Mary Bell's story, in one sense, gives us hope that
42:46children who do dreadful things, children who commit murder, can change. Now, I know that will be of
42:54no comfort to the families of Brian Howe or Martin Brown, but in relation to the greater scheme of
43:01things in relation to childhood, that tells us that some children who commit dreadful crimes can change.
43:09The case of Mary Bell is desperately sad and brings out raw emotions in all of us.
43:18Just how do you deal with a child who's been found guilty of murder? Can adults who killed as children
43:26go on to lead normal lives? Should they be granted anonymity? Is that fair to their victims and also
43:35the families of their victims? It leaves us with many unanswered questions. Are we born good or bad,
43:44a product of nature or nurture? And ultimately, can people change?
44:17You are free to buy some of us. To be continued...
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