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Mark Zuckerman from Nats Journal joins The Kevin Sheehan Show to analyze the Nationals going into the trade deadline and if any big moves will be made to make the team a real playoff contender to close out the MLB season.
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00:00Mark is with us right now. Of course, Mark covers the team for his own Nats Chat podcast, which our
00:08good friend Al Galdi is a part of.
00:11And Mark covers the team via his sub stack, NatsJournal.com.
00:17You can link to it from his X account, at Mark Zuckerman. He joins us right now.
00:22Man, this has been just such an interesting, it's the most interesting conversation we've had about the team on the
00:30field in years because all of the other conversations have been about the potential sale of the team or Rizzo's
00:37gone or Davey's gone and the replacements, etc.
00:41And now there's a legitimate competitive team, 107 games into the season.
00:46They're a game out of the wildcard race in the National League in terms of that third wildcard race.
00:53So it's been a few weeks, at least, since I've talked to you. Here they are. It's no longer an
01:00aberration.
01:00I'll just ask you to describe this baseball team to somebody who hasn't paid attention to it for the first
01:08two-thirds of the season.
01:11Yeah, that's a good question. I would say they are an explosive offense that is not going away.
01:18This is who they are offensively. I don't think that's changing at all.
01:22With two of the absolute best hitters in the league right now in James Wood and C.J. Abrams, plus
01:27a bunch of others who are contributing to it.
01:30And then there are pitching staff that some nights it works and some nights it doesn't, and especially from a
01:37bullpen standpoint, it leaves you sweating it out until the final out is recorded.
01:42And that's why they're good enough to be in the race for sure, but it's also why they can't really
01:50go on a run that would get them clearly into the field.
01:54It's why they're really hovering right at, or a few games over, .500.
02:00Look, that's great. It's great progress from where they've been, but they know that they're not a complete team.
02:06They're getting by with their great offense and the occasional good pitching performance.
02:12I think about the postseason, and I know the Dodgers have won two in a row, and they've won three
02:17out of the last four.
02:18One of those was obviously, or three, whatever it is, three out of the last five, the bubble or the
02:23shortened season in 2020.
02:25But more times than not, you get, you know, results that don't necessarily match up to the regular season in
02:32the postseason.
02:33And I've been thinking that if they were to get in with what they are offensively, and with two really
02:41solid starters,
02:43we'll get to whether or not you think Foster Griffin will be a part of the stretch run or not
02:48prior to the trade deadline.
02:50But with two real solid starters in Cavalli and Griffin, and maybe a third with early being acquired from Boston
02:58by the time we get to late in the season, they could win a short series early in a three
03:05versus six in the first round
03:08against the Braves or the Phillies, you know, because that's likely to be the three seed, you know, in the
03:14National League.
03:15Don't you think that they would be somewhat dangerous in a short series?
03:19In a short series, yes. If these young hitters are not phased by the moment, and so far they haven't
03:28been,
03:28obviously they're not playing in October games that mean so much more, but we've seen them have success against good
03:35pitching this year.
03:36And they've faced a number of, you know, what I'll call sort of must-win games over the last few
03:42weeks.
03:42Like after a tough loss, they come right back and they explode offensively.
03:46So, yes, it would give them a chance. I would still be really nervous about them closing games out
03:54unless they're able to pull off some acquisitions here before Monday's trade deadline,
03:58which I do think Paul DeBone is going to do and he's obviously trying to do,
04:02and I think he will acquire at least a reliever or two with some experience who can help them.
04:06So in a short series, yes, it's not outrageous. And I think that's why they're not giving up, you know,
04:11and just saying, is this really worth it to go for or not?
04:13And now, could they then go on the kind of run that you would have to get through the Dodgers,
04:21the Brewers, the Cubs, whoever else it might be to have a shot at reaching the World Series?
04:27You know, probably not. This probably isn't the team quite yet that's ready for that.
04:31But that doesn't mean you can't still go for it because you never know.
04:35And you also never know when these opportunities are going to come.
04:38It's easy to say, oh, they've got this young, talented team and they're going to be good for years to
04:43come.
04:44And this is just the start of it. And they're really building towards 27 and 28 and beyond.
04:49And that may be true, but you never know. This could be their best shot.
04:53Maybe this is one of those years where the stars are just aligning.
04:56And I liked what Paul Tabone said the other day in talking about the trade that they made.
05:01He said, this team has an it factor to it.
05:03And he understands that and he recognizes that, that something special is going on here.
05:07And it would be wrong of him to ignore that and say, no, these guys have earned the right to
05:14have a shot at going for this now.
05:16And I appreciate the way that he has viewed that and not just looked at the hard numbers or said,
05:21well, we're ahead of schedule, so we're not going to, we're not really ready to go for it yet.
05:26Yeah. I mean, you're so close to it, so you've got a better feel from it.
05:31But from afar, there's a lot going on here.
05:33Like Blake Futera said after they beat Colorado in that third game, that it was an extremely important win.
05:39You know, we're talking about July 22nd or whatever it was in Denver against one of the worst teams in
05:45baseball.
05:46And it was an extremely important win.
05:48And I kind of understood in the moment why it was important.
05:51You couldn't lose that series.
05:52You, you've got to keep the momentum going through at least August 3rd and the trade deadline,
05:58because you've, you've, you've, there's been a lot invested.
06:03There's been a lot achieved here.
06:05They've, they've clearly cleared the expectation hurdle by a long shot.
06:11And there seems to be something that may be owed to the players like James Wood,
06:15C.J. Abrams, that we're here to try to make the most out of this year, this moment.
06:23Exactly. And it's funny because I went into the ballpark that day, of course, field thinking myself like,
06:28this is a must-win game.
06:30And so they did. And then to hear Butera acknowledge it after the fact as well, I thought was, was
06:37interesting.
06:37And they all understand that right now, this next week is kind of going to help shape whether they do
06:45go for it or not.
06:46And that, I think Tabone's words suggest that, that he is willing to, they're not going to sacrifice the future
06:53in an attempt to go all in right now.
06:55But they're also not just going to say, eh, we're not really ready yet.
06:59So let's just trade off our, our short-term pieces here.
07:02But the results of this week, and that's, you know, the series against the Blue Jays and then at Atlanta
07:08for four games this weekend,
07:09before they hit the trade deadline, it's going to make a big difference.
07:13If they go three and three, four and two, five and one, they're in it.
07:17And I think he is going to be aggressive at the deadline.
07:20If they, God forbid, went one in five this week, and now you're under 500 and you're three or four
07:27games out,
07:27and you're looking up at three or four teams in front of you to try to catch, it makes the
07:32argument to sell, say, a Foster Griffin
07:35and not hang on to him for the rest of the season.
07:39And so I think they all understand that this is an important week that's going to shape how they approach
07:44the deadline
07:44and whether they truly do have a shot at making a run at this the rest of the way.
07:48Yeah, it really feels that way from afar.
07:51I'm glad to hear you say that.
07:53And I thought that the quote from the manager last week sort of indicated,
07:57there's something else too, Mark, that I don't know if it's in play or not, you would know.
08:01And that is, what does ownership think?
08:03Because for six years, they have been terrible.
08:08And of course, that has probably likely impacted the number that they could have gotten for the team
08:14when they were actively marketing the team for sale.
08:18And maybe this is an opportunity for them to get it into a propped up situation.
08:24I know there's a pending lockout and all of that plays into it, too.
08:28But I wonder what ownership thinks about this unexpected opportunity that sits.
08:35I mean, if they're sitting there a week from yesterday, you know, on August 3rd,
08:41and they've won four out of six or five out of seven, and they're four or five games above 500,
08:47and they're in that third spot.
08:49By the way, they're not that far out of the second spot either, with the Phillies losing last night to
08:54the Marlins.
08:54But what do you think ownership's thinking about maybe this opportunity?
08:59Yeah, it's a fascinating question, and I wish I knew a concrete answer about that,
09:04because they're so out of the public eye right now.
09:08You know, Mark Lerner was at the press conference last week for Chris Sikopi
09:12in the first-round pick that they signed.
09:15But outside of that, we really haven't seen much of ownership and haven't gotten much of a sense of
09:19what they feel about what's going on this year.
09:22I will say this.
09:23When they hired Paul Tivoni and Blake Buterra, they were clearly saying,
09:28it's time for us to go in a new direction.
09:30And we're acknowledging that this is not a quick fix.
09:34This is going to take some time.
09:35We're looking at the long-term vision here.
09:38And that's what Tivoni and Buterra were hired to do.
09:41Now, you come in and have a kind of season like this, and it's, okay, wait a minute.
09:45That could speed things up somewhat.
09:49Tivoni has said that ownership has given him all the support that he needs,
09:54and that includes financially.
09:56Does that mean they could go and add to payroll at the trade deadline?
09:59I don't know.
10:00We'll have to wait and see if that's true.
10:02Does it mean they would give Foster Griffin an extension to keep him here?
10:06I don't know.
10:06Would they make a serious attempt to keep T.J. Abrams or James Wood or whoever else?
10:12We don't know.
10:13This is kind of the big, looming question in the bigger picture,
10:16except to say that Mark Lerner did say, again, at that Tivoni press conference
10:21since a while ago now, that they believe they will get back to what they used to be
10:29in terms of a high payroll and full commitment to all this when the time is right.
10:33Well, the way the team has played, it sure seems like the time is right.
10:39And I've been saying for several years now, if their ultimate goal is to raise the value
10:44of the franchise so that they can eventually sell it, well, how do you make that happen?
10:48Put a better product on the field.
10:50Get more people in the seat.
10:52Sell more merchandise.
10:54You win.
10:55And they're starting down that path.
10:56So it's, I think, a really fascinating question to see if they believe that what we've seen
11:01so far this year is enough to push them to start doing more on their end as well.
11:06Talking to, of course, Mark Zuckerman, the tear that C.J. Abrams has been on.
11:12Even last night, he walked twice.
11:13He stole two bases, even though he didn't have a hit.
11:17I mean, I went through the numbers.
11:20Before last night, 19 hits and 39 at-bats, seven homers and 15 RBIs.
11:28So much of the talk before the season began was this specific week
11:33and what they could get for somebody like C.J. Abrams.
11:36He's off the table, right?
11:38Has to be.
11:40Here's the way I'll put it.
11:43If somebody wants to call Paul Tivoni and make him an offer, he should listen to it.
11:47But the price has got to be astronomical at this point.
11:52It's got to be like Soto-level return.
11:55And do I think anybody would offer that?
11:57No, probably not.
11:58I just don't see that happening.
12:01He has played his way into convincing them that he should be a part of this
12:06at least the rest of this year, if not beyond that, as well.
12:10And all the credit to C.J., who we know when he was on the last few years
12:15could be fantastic all-star caliber player, and then when he would go into a slide,
12:20it would last for a while.
12:22And he had terrible second halves the last two years.
12:25Well, he's come out of the all-star break this year playing the best baseball of his life.
12:30And I think it's a sign of his maturity.
12:33I think it's him, and James Wood to an extent as well, recognizing now with some experience
12:39what it takes to get through a whole 162-game season physically and mentally
12:44to keep yourself engaged every single day, to keep your body ready for it.
12:48The body language those two had the second half of last year as the season was falling apart,
12:54you could tell that they just didn't have it in them to make it through the season.
12:58There's a difference in them now with the team winning, but also with the way they're playing
13:03that says, hey, we understand what it takes now to play a full six months,
13:08and we're going hard all the way through it.
13:10And I give him a lot of credit because that was really the most important step for him
13:15to take in his career to show that he can be that guy and not just be a three-month
13:19player,
13:19but now ideally a six-month player.
13:21By the way, the top 10 players odds-wise for National League MVP,
13:29Otani's obviously a massive favorite right now with Pete Crow Armstrong second,
13:33but the Nats are the only team with two players in the top 10 odds for NL MVP.
13:41James Wood's currently the third favorite in the NL MVP race,
13:46and C.J. Abrams, who was completely off the list as recently as two weeks ago,
13:53is now the sixth favorite in the National League to win the MVP.
13:58Neither one of them is going to win the MVP because of Otani and even Crow Armstrong,
14:05but still, I mean, you've got two stars in Wood and Abrams.
14:12All right, so you've kind of answered the question as it relates to how Toboni will treat the deadline.
14:20There's already been one trade made.
14:22Were you surprised?
14:23I mean, they got a starter for a guy that clearly is having a career year in Meade.
14:29What did you real quickly make of that trade, Curtis Meade to Boston for Connolly Early,
14:34who's, by the way, injured right now and might not even be a factor this year
14:39in terms of a starting pitcher, but what did you make of that trade?
14:43What I made was, wow, I would not have expected you could get Connolly Early for Curtis Meade alone.
14:52Like, if it had been a Luis Garcia trade for him, I would say, okay, I understand that,
14:56or if there had been prospects involved, I wouldn't share that.
14:59You don't get good young pitching who have five years of club control.
15:05You just don't get that very often.
15:08And to get that for a guy who, look, Curtis Meade was fantastic for them,
15:12and I agree with what Toboni and Dutera both said, which is, I don't think this has been a fluke,
15:18what he did this year.
15:19I think he can be this hitter for years to come.
15:22Now, that said, he was sound money.
15:24They got him for a little-known draft pick from last year.
15:28He had been DFA'd by the White Sox just after opening day, and they turned him into that.
15:34And on top of that, while I do think he could have had a place here for years, for several
15:39years after this,
15:40he wasn't necessarily locked in as their, like, starting third baseman.
15:44They have Brady House, who came up and played well the other day.
15:47You know, they have other prospects who I think in the long run would probably play above Meade.
15:53So, if you can turn that now into a 24-year-old left-hander who already has had success at
15:59the big leagues,
16:00already started a winner-take-all playoff game at Yankee Stadium last year,
16:05and you've got him for five more years,
16:07that's a move that is both a long-term move, but it's also potentially a short-term move to help
16:14you now.
16:14And, yes, he's on the IL.
16:16It was elbow inflammation, but he's already throwing through off a bullpen mound yesterday.
16:21We met him yesterday. He reported at Nats Park.
16:23He is going to make a rehab start in the minors right around August 3rd, give or take, a day
16:29or two.
16:30And if it all goes well, and, of course, with an elbow, so you always have to, you know, give
16:34that caveat.
16:35You never know what could happen.
16:36But if it all goes well, by mid-August, he could be in their rotation and make, say, 7 to
16:4110 starts for them down the stretch.
16:43So he could play a real role in them trying to make the playoffs this year.
16:47And even if he doesn't, that's a big arm to have in your rotation now for the next five years.
16:55All right. So Foster Griffin, does it all come down to these two games against Toronto,
17:02the first four in Atlanta and the one or two games in Philly before the trade deadline?
17:06Is that what it comes down to? Because there's clearly a market for him.
17:10Yeah, I think it comes down to two things. Yes, it's how the team performs this week.
17:16It's also, what are you being offered?
17:18And I would think, given how he's performed this year and how hard it is to get pitching, as I
17:24just described,
17:25that there will be a decent offer for him from somebody.
17:29Now, that said, it is still a rental.
17:31You're only going to have him for two months.
17:33And how much are you really willing to give up for that?
17:38And I've been saying this all along, that if you're Tiboni and you're going to sell off any pieces,
17:43you better get big league ready players in return or very close to big league ready.
17:48This can't be for 19-year-old shortstop at single A who's three years down the road.
17:54You know, that's not going to work for where they're at.
17:56So, you know, those are the caveats to it.
18:00I think they'll listen to offers.
18:01I think if you get something that is clearly going to help you in the short and long term,
18:07that you're willing to make that move.
18:09But there's also another scenario, which is you keep him.
18:12You try to make the playoffs with him.
18:14You maybe see if you can convince him to sign an extension before he becomes a free agent.
18:18But even if he doesn't, you can still try to do that after the season once he is a free
18:22agent.
18:23I think there's going to be a connection between him and the team and feel like he liked it here
18:28and they should be willing to make him a fair offer.
18:31And if you do ultimately lose him as a free agent, you should get a compensatory draft pick for him.
18:36And that's maybe not as good as a prospect or even a big leaguer that you get in a trade,
18:40but it's not nothing.
18:41So he's the most fascinating one.
18:45What they do with him tells me the most about how they feel about their real chances this year.
18:50More so than Garcia.
18:53Yeah, because like Meade, it's a little harder because you've already traded Meade.
18:58But like him, if you traded Garcia, and again, depending on who you got in return,
19:02you still have maybe enough offense.
19:05Yeah.
19:06So I think that would be the difference there.
19:08Yeah.
19:09Real quickly, Max Scherzer, will his jersey eventually be retired here or not?
19:18Yeah, I think so.
19:20To me, it's number 11 for Zimmerman, 31 for Max, and 37 for Strasburg, provided that Strasburg
19:25ownership can heal.
19:27But yeah, I think so.
19:28And I believe that his cap on his Hall of Fame plaque will have a curly W.
19:33If it doesn't, it would be blank, which would be unfortunate.
19:36I don't think it's going to be any other team.
19:38His most success was clearly here.
19:40I think he gets the number retired, and I think he has a Nats cap on his Hall of Fame
19:44plaque.
19:45All right.
19:45One other quick thing, not Nats related.
19:48Just for those that aren't paying attention to the baseball season, tell everybody what
19:53Jacob Mizorowski's doing in Milwaukee in the season that he's having as a pitcher.
20:00It's almost unprecedented to have somebody who throws this hard.
20:04And you have to understand, like, every single fastball he throws is over 100 miles an hour.
20:08And he can sustain it into the fifth, sixth inning and beyond.
20:11The strikeout numbers are insane.
20:14Not giving up runs.
20:15ERA is microscopic.
20:18Everybody who wondered, was that just a flash in the pan when he came up last summer?
20:21And he dealt with a couple of injuries?
20:24No, it's not.
20:24This is legit.
20:26It's harder, like anyone we've seen in the past in this kind of regard, to throw that
20:30hard and be that successful.
20:32And on a team that is going to make the playoffs, he's going to be one of the stars of
20:36October
20:36one way or another.
20:38And there's a franchise that has been to the World Series once in 1982 and has never won
20:43it.
20:44They're going to be all in to try to win right now because you've got an iconic young
20:49pitcher leading the way.
20:50They're going to be a sentimental favorite for a lot of people to try to make it this
20:54year.
20:5582 was the season where they beat the Orioles on the final, I think, the final game of the
21:01season to win the American League East.
21:04That's the year, right?
21:0582?
21:06Yeah.
21:07Don Sutton for the Brewers towards the end of his career.
21:09It's Palmer, right?
21:11That sounds right.
21:11I was a little kid, but I vaguely remember that.
21:14Um, yeah, because I was looking up, you know, his current, uh, right now he's got his ERA
21:19down to, I think it's 1.58, somewhere around there.
21:23And, you know, if you look at the all-time ERA numbers, none of them basically are in the
21:27last 50 years with the exception of Gooden.
21:31Um, Gooden's up there.
21:33He's got a chance to have the best ERA season for any pitcher in the last 50 years.
21:39So Gibson's 68, we're, we're beyond 50 years.
21:43We're beyond a half century since that.
21:45That's how good he's been if he continues to, to, to pitch at this level, which would
21:50be pretty remarkable.
21:52Um, all right.
21:53Thanks for doing this.
21:54This will be a crazy week to see what happens.
21:57I mean, last night didn't help, uh, losing to a team that's not playing well.
22:01They got to get these last two against Toronto to keep that momentum going into the Atlanta
22:06series.
22:06Appreciate it, Mark.
22:07As always.
22:08You got it.
22:09Thanks, Kevin.
22:10Mark Zuckerman, everybody.
22:12Um, big week, uh, we'll be here, keep it locked into the station for any sort of big
22:18trades that the Nats may make, but man, it does feel like he's right to me that it's how
22:24they play here heading into Monday, which is the deadline, uh, and getting to, uh,
22:31wins against Toronto, losing this series against this team would not be great.
22:36Uh, Cade Cavalli pitches tonight.
22:39Uh, so they, you know, like that Colorado game felt last week.
22:44This one feels like they got to get this one tonight against Toronto.
22:49Oh, no.
22:49Oh, no.
22:49I'm going to let you know, let's go for that.