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00:02hello welcome to copper independent the independence world cup podcast i'm lawrence
00:06osler and i'm joined by chief football writer miguel delaney in atlanta hello and senior sports
00:13writer kieran jackson just back to the uk after an excellent couple of weeks in the us how are
00:17you doing are you adjusting yeah not too bad thanks hi good to see you guys miguel you are
00:22in atlanta because england are playing argentina there in a couple of days time and we have
00:28the dreamy semi-final lined up lineup which we discussed a few days ago trying not to be too
00:34dismissive of norway morocco belgium and switzerland but we have got england v argentina and we've got
00:40spain v france the top four seeds absolutely tasty superstar players what kylian mbappe
00:47laminio marl leonard messi against dan burn what a time to be alive so miguel just you must be sort
00:55of positively frothing tell us about how excited you are to see this lineup yeah i've done a big
01:02piece on this and how this is the most alluring and rich semi-final pairing how would you even put
01:09that since 1990 and potentially depending on how the games go the best ever i mean there's a few
01:15basic facts or basic stats to illustrate that it's the first is 1990 with four previous winners now not
01:21that's necessarily important given say like spain weren't the previous winner in 2010 or whatever
01:25also as you mentioned fifa have made great play of this it's the first since rankings began where
01:31it features the four top ranked teams in a tournament but i think more important than all of that like
01:36we
01:36can clearly sense and see it's the concentration of quality it's the contrasts it's the stars and also
01:45maybe more important than anything else for two way these things go it's all of that with the
01:50storylines i mean that's what really makes world cups and that's what really infuses moments and
01:54this is so rich and what sums it up i have to say was like when the spain france one
01:58was confirmed on
02:00friday obviously that what the immediate billing was the real final because the because they have been
02:05the two best teams as a tournament and then that feels like just because of the history because of the
02:13kind of the epic nature of past games and the pent-up emotion the fact they haven't met in 21
02:19years and
02:19haven't met in 24 years in a world cup it feels like england argentina has totally overtaken that
02:24and so i have to say like i mean usually at this stage of the tournament like as journalists
02:30especially those in my role you would look to try and do both finals the logistics are a bit difficult
02:37here just because of how difficult it is to get between dallas and atlanta because the timings of the
02:42games but also it does feel there's another element to that and it's one of the reasons why i'm here
02:46early is because actually the build-up to england argentina feels like it is important to the game
02:52itself but like i mean that's just one game that we're going to get into but all taken together i
02:57really can remember semi-final pairings like this i was even running through a few in the last uh in
03:02the
03:02year since 1990 for the pieces done the closest was maybe 2014 and obviously that had germany and
03:08brazil in that historic match to 7-1 but argentina netherlands ended up kind of petering out to a
03:13nil all draw i would say the closest in terms of concentration equality was 2006 because that was
03:19portugal france and italy germany even if italy germany is a brilliant game but it was also it
03:23was in a more defensive era which is one reason that italy germany game stood out and beyond that
03:29without meaning to kind of like disparage or show disrespect to certain so i could say like a
03:33croatia 98 they obviously enriched the tournament because they were an entertaining exciting team
03:38it's just this this goes beyond like and it's a bit of an irony as well because as big as
03:43they've
03:43made this world cup it's actually been very light on heavy on properly heavyweight clashes there is an
03:50instructive little episode that i i talk about in the piece i did where alejandro dominguez who is the
03:57president of conna ball and a close confidant of gianni infantino he um in the vvip box the fifa box
04:05for argentina uh switzerland in kansas when alvarez scores he he's a paraguayan but he celebrates as if
04:13he's an argentine and looks some of that is obviously because of the quality of the goal it would get
04:17you
04:18off your feet then there's the fact that south american representation which is important to him
04:21but it did strike me fifa must be absolutely jumping for joy this is a box office semifinals
04:27and that in the home of entertainment and they're trying to sell on this you don't it doesn't feel
04:31like at least we're going to have you know low stakes low storyline nil all tactical football where
04:37the where the only stakes are getting into the world cup final as massive as that is i was thinking
04:41this today that if fifa could have designed this world cup particularly given their trialing or not
04:47trialing they're going ahead with this new 48 team format this is about as perfect as they could
04:52have designed it if you think of the group stages and the lack of jeopardy for the big teams what
04:57you
04:57did have was great storylines for those some of the smaller nations who who probably wouldn't have
05:03squeezed into us a 32 team tournament cape verde obviously being their kind of standout but even like
05:09curacao who got battered by germany 7-1 i was at that game and they scored a goal and it
05:12was like a
05:13real moment of sort of national joy so you had those great storylines and they fed right through
05:18to the knockouts obviously cape verde in particular but then you also had the golden boot race which
05:23kind of ignited interest in the stars of the tournament and and the bigger teams without
05:28like i said that kind of jeopardy and none of those teams were going to get knocked out
05:31but you had that that kind of subplot as well and then obviously these great some great knockout
05:37games i mean there's not there's been one or two duds but and i haven't obviously watched
05:41being in the uk i haven't watched every single minute so caught some highlights but it feels like
05:46most of these knockout games have been great it's really really entertaining some couple of shocks
05:51and now we've got this perfect lineup i mean kieran it doesn't get probably any better from fifa's
05:56perspective no i think not kind of makes it a bit more baffling how gianni infantino said today that
06:02i think he's looking at a 64 team world cup for for the next one in 2030 i mean you
06:07know we've
06:07criticized the 48 team it's done really it's produced some really good football some really good
06:11storylines and they might go up to 64 teams but that's probably a conversation for another day
06:15that's a lot of hydration breaks yeah it is isn't it yeah it's it's a blockbuster lineup i think
06:19there's an element of the world cup where seeing the underdog get get deep like morocco in 2022 for
06:26example or a south korea in 2002 and i think the fact we haven't got that is is kind of
06:30a shame but
06:31like you can't look past the the storylines but between both matches right like spain and france have
06:36played a lot i've seen a lot of each other over the last few years they played in the
06:40semifinals in euro 2024 which is memorable for yamal's amazing goal at 16 years of age
06:45they played in the nation's league semifinals last year which was 5-4 so no that was an astonishing
06:51game and then you've got england argentina with all the history behind it but who haven't actually
06:55met in 21 years since actually what was a very memorable friendly in on neutral territory in
07:00geneva with michael owen's two late goals for a 3-2 win so yeah the storylines behind them are
07:05are awesome and it is a unique thing that the top four would get through so just in the in
07:10five of
07:10the last six world cups someone from the top four in the world rankings hasn't even got out the group
07:14let alone reached the semifinals so it speaks to the strength of these sides but it's not like they've
07:20all coasted to the to the final four either argentina have had some really nervy encounters england
07:27have had their moments france and spain have been much more polished but yeah it's it's it's enormously
07:32exciting i have to say well kieran touched on there kind of speaks to the contrast between the
07:37two sides as well and even within these games there are also dichotomies and contrasts so i think like
07:42it is commonly accepted i suppose that spain and france are better teams and that has played into the
07:49fact that their runs have been smoother they haven't had the same chaos and drama and emotion
07:55yes spain have had two late winners but that's from games they dominated whereas with england and
08:01argentina basically what all of their knockout games have been this madness and i think that
08:07comes from basically that both are dysfunctional sides that has made them more dependent on the
08:13individual stars it's not like it's not the same as mbappe and dembele and elise where what they're
08:20doing is a sort of product of collective play it's kind of a natural consequence of it it's instead of
08:25the opposite where it needs these stars to basically save them and it doesn't mean even though
08:30i would say spain france would be would be the higher quality game and it kind of like you can
08:35get into other debates here and discussions and i've done a piece on how this is essentially maybe
08:40one of these classic kind of tactical landmark games is a game between pep guardiola's positional
08:46game and the new school of relationism which is a return to individual interpretation but
08:51actually that argentina england will be i think the more chaotic more entertaining and more dramatic
08:58and even from that you can actually this is one of the things with england argentina you can see it
09:03being anything from being three four nil to either side that one of the teams finally suffers the
09:07collapse that's arguably been coming or it can basically they can both go right at it and this
09:12can go to distance the penalties and my thinking on that is actually that this will go to penalties
09:16just to pitch in lawrence just to those who might not know that fifa changed the formatting of how the
09:21knockout draw works for this tournament so the top four were put in different quarters almost like a
09:25tennis grand slam so that's how this has occurred there was a chance at previous world cups that
09:29one of these four teams could have met in the quarterfinals that now no longer was the case
09:33assuming they won their group which all four did so that that's how it's been designed and it's kind
09:38of the fact it's been manufactured like that is is interesting as we as we've discussed in terms of
09:42that underdog feel but for what it's produced it's uh it's cracking yes so let's maybe start with
09:50england argentina and we'll chat a bit more about spain france in a bit and you talked about the
09:54stars coming to the form again one of those obviously due bellingham two more goals he's
09:59now actually kind of in the golden boot race with six goals he well first of all let's credit me
10:06because i got the prediction bang right i have to say i wasn't very confident and and our quite bold
10:13four-way england predictions were looking pretty um pretty yeah sketchy yes at one point um but let's
10:22talk about bellingham i mean there was a point in this tournament certainly where kane it was felt
10:26like it was kane's tournament from from an england perspective and now that has swung towards
10:30bellingham i mean kane is starting to slightly show that sort of ghost of harry kane floating around
10:37the halfway line thing that he sometimes has done in previous end of tournaments a little bit concerned
10:43about that and whether or not he's starting to get fatigued but we will see maybe that was just a
10:47one-off miguel you were actually there in miami i mean just talk to us about the heat and first
10:53of
10:53all before we get into due bellingham i just wonder like was that game just a complete one-off in
10:58terms
10:58of the conditions a bit like how mexico is a complete one-off in terms of the environment and
11:02the conditions and everything there was this another just total one-off where you can't read too much
11:07into the fact that england weren't very good well it's a one-off in terms of the conditions but
11:12this was the greater issue is how all of this accumulates to create kind of a combination of other
11:16issues and just on your prediction lances i mean they say self-praise there's no praise i'll say
11:21it's actually the only praise there's no praise like self-praise well you guys weren't gonna
11:26mention it so i had to um but no i was like it's funny on that because even before the
11:32game
11:32when we were when we were obviously when giving you your platform for your uh your foresight
11:37and we were obviously talking about that england's great advantage in this tournament
11:40in comparison to actually probably every every other team except france is actually they've got
11:46two world-class players on form and i have to say that was my concern for england from that match
11:52that obviously they've suddenly got issues mounting all over the pitch now like we've got the midfield
11:56to add to the right back position uh but also kane looked leaden and you are right like some of
12:03it
12:03might be might just been the circumstances and like that the humidity was unreal like so i've been to
12:10miami for two games this tournament and i have to say like i think i said at the time i
12:14don't mind heat
12:15i found it like almost unbearable like to walk outside for more than 10 minutes can i just say
12:20because like i just want to ask you a question sorry on that because you did a run around
12:24mexico city in altitude i just wondered how you found compare the humidity of miami
12:28versus famously versus the altitude of mexico city so actually it was worse two weeks ago for
12:35brazil scotland because that the sun was beating down and i thought i actually i think that it was
12:40more humid uh from looking at the the kind of measures on my phone i think it might have been
12:45closer to 80 percent that week and i did a run that morning didn't film it because everyone knows it's
12:51like to run in humidity and eve um and like it's obviously it's it's tough for this one i didn't
12:58think
12:58the conditions were bad but like when you go outside you just kind of you're basically walking
13:03into this this wall of hot air and it's funny i was talking to uh ray houghton before the game
13:09who
13:09was there as a pundit for irish television and he obviously played in what had previously been
13:13the uh hottest ever world cup match which was ireland nexico also in florida albeit in orlando
13:20in usa 94 and he was like talking about how i mean this was this was in the days only
13:25two subs and no
13:25water breaks and they were thrown like these plastic bags on the pitch bit bit the bags and we just
13:30go
13:30down the front of this and didn't even get to drink properly but he was saying it was they didn't
13:34notice it as much in the day as tough as it was the bigger effect was by the time they
13:39played
13:39netherlands in the last 16 they just had nothing to give and look this is a different day there's
13:45different sports science all of that but that's where i suppose there's you'd be potentially
13:52concerned that this is about more than the specific conditions of the day for someone like harry
13:55kane especially as he's 32 because he suddenly looked like the weight of the season was coming
13:59on him and now and obviously the gonna the gaps between games get a bit shorter than they were
14:05during the group stage that that is where i'd have concern and where i suppose there's even more
14:10dependency on bellingham who does look like you know of all the players he looks athletically peak
14:17at this tournament and even like the first goal he got i mean that was a distillation of pure desire
14:22and will of just kind of not allowing this to happen but i i do think that yeah england actually
14:28have so they've suddenly got a lot of concerns popping up all over the fish and what was so
14:32striking about this match and i wouldn't i suppose we're going to be two days on so we maybe don't
14:36want the complete retrospective in the norway game but it is relevant to what's going to happen
14:40against argentina in that like another issue rice isn't fully fit so what do you do you know of
14:45rice reese james is the ideal candidate although what does that say for kabi menu who isn't being
14:50trusted at all and reese james didn't look fit either it felt like tuchel had to correct his
14:55own subs in that in that game and i think this this is the worry for me for england against
14:59argentina i i think outside messi england have a better squad than argentina potentially a better
15:05team and they've got a better range of qualities and more players playing at a higher level it's just
15:09that a lot of those suddenly they don't look like they're able to apply that form and it does feel
15:15like argentina can bring the game down to a fight that they're suddenly well used to and england
15:23because england have had kind of these emotional battles i think in different ways to argentina
15:27you talked about tuchel's substitutions there and having to kind of fix his tactical change when he
15:32brought he's talking about bringing on ebreche esi in the second half which i don't think really
15:36worked i actually think tuchel made i would argue he's possibly made a mistake in the mexico game as
15:42this is i heard you guys chatting about this and giving him a lot of praise and a lot of
15:45people
15:45have done i felt like he went really early to that back five system in the mexico game and invited
15:53an awful lot of pressure like half an hour of pressure which mexico didn't exploit at all and
15:58they didn't recognize that a six foot seven center back was on the field and they kept crossing the
16:02ball to towards dan burn i feel like tuchel's kind of got away with a couple of things there
16:07potentially and and had england conceded against mexico later in that game it would have been a
16:11nightmare to try and rectify that lineup to be a counter-attacking team when there were no
16:15substitutes left and then again as a as a change like you said didn't really seem to work they went
16:20to almost a four three three and without rice there's no balance and like you said he doesn't
16:24trust kobe menu so i feel like tuchel's kind of still figuring things out particularly in the second
16:29halves what i do like though is that england basically have this mad system now which has happened
16:34twice with a five four one or five three one if you've got 10 men which is really clearly really
16:40hard to break down is it almost like a weapon now that england have ability to bring on a damn
16:45burn
16:45string a load of defenders across the box and say right like hit 15 minutes left try and beat us
16:50like it's quite it's an unusual but quite like unique tactic i i think i think in second halves i
16:57think for
16:57tuchel to be so so bold of his substitutions i think is a good thing because i think we've seen
17:03in
17:03games where you need to change your system to meet the circumstances of what's going on on the pitch
17:08so i it was clear that he got one or two substitutions wrong yesterday he was actually
17:12asked about in his post-match press conference about having to constantly shift bellingham from
17:16the 10 to the 8 and you know if if bellingham is playing in the 8 during extra time he
17:21doesn't
17:21score that winning winning goal does he so it's a it's interesting how bellingham is the one who
17:26needs to adapt where you'd say he's been our best player playing number 10 don't move him but it's
17:31because of the issues with declin rice which is which is a concern i have to say the fact he's
17:35carrying
17:35two knocks the fact he's been ill i think tuchel said he'd been in bed for three days
17:40can he recover for wednesday because he's a huge part of it of england's engine room and a lot of
17:45pressure and emphasis was placed on elliot anderson yesterday who again i thought was pretty exemplary
17:50some of his passing range his work off the ball very impressive i actually think james looked really
17:55good in midfield when he came on but he obviously can't play 90 minutes so there's there's definitely a
18:00lot of question marks but just just just quickly on bellingham because obviously a lot of people have seen
18:04the the post-match interviews with with thomas tuchel and and with bellingham and how bellingham
18:09reacted to to what gabriel clark said that tuchel said the performance wasn't very good and he just
18:14said whatever i i think that kind of elite mentality and that mindset is is what's pushing england through
18:19these games it speaks so much about what bellingham is as a footballer on the pitch and his his
18:25personality and an attitude off it i i think that's what it's all about and the question is how long
18:31can
18:31he keep maintaining that form how long can he keep pushing england through games almost single-handedly
18:37and will he need a hand from from the likes of kane and and whatnot on wednesday but this is
18:42a really
18:42fascinating one though um although i've already been struck by how a lot of people aren't necessarily
18:49interpreting it as a tuchel versus bellingham thing but actually an england against the media thing and i
18:55think there's been a bit of unfair heat on gabriel clark in particular as if he should kind of like
19:01just
19:01present present his questions to his subjects for approval that's not how it works and also okay
19:05he's he's gabriel's got some criticism for say uh not giving the full context of tuchel's comments to
19:11bellingham but i mean like it's a bit of it like just because tuchel's tuchel was the one that said
19:18it
19:18it's an obvious point to put to a player that england didn't play well they didn't it's not just
19:22tuchel that thinks that it's a fair question to put the bellingham and i think bellingham was
19:26obviously understandably as you say kieran he was defensive about that but where it's interesting
19:33and where this look it's not it's not tuchel versus bellingham but it's like it's where this is
19:38this is a genuine discussion point i'm fair enough for bellingham to defend himself i did it was hard
19:45not to be struck with the comments about um you know maybe he's never experienced this before so
19:50that's so let's just clarify that was bellingham wasn't it yeah saying that about tuchel and basically
19:54hints implying i suppose or we were inferring that yeah i think he was suggesting that tuchel
20:00doesn't have the credibility because he hasn't had a playing career yeah i mean we should probably say
20:04it's pretty clear it's an it's an inference we're taking it on rather than necessarily bellingham
20:08implying it but i think it's a fair inference yeah that you know as you say and it just can
20:13be a sore
20:14point for coaches in that sense they're like especially given all the discussion around and i think
20:17tuchel had a little bit of this at bayern munich especially with the big football figures like
20:21matthias and hammond um where like you're essentially questioning their well you're you're calling it
20:30to question their playing career in that degree obviously tuchel's was ended by injury but he's now
20:33dealing with these massive stars and but of course that's all within the context that basically
20:41bellingham and tuchel themselves about absolutely massive personalities and if they can get over that
20:48look tuchel's a big boy and he he himself so i wrote this i put this in the piece i
20:55did for the
20:55independent late on saturday evening tuchel himself speaks frankly he's spoken frankly about bellingham
21:01in the past i don't think he'll necessarily mind it from what i hear he likes a dressing room that
21:06that
21:06is open he he obviously has a bit of a push and pull relationship with bellingham that can be seen
21:12how kind of he dropped him in october that was that was genuinely seen by people around the squad as
21:17crucial to bellingham's form now and look i think it'll be fine i suppose the issue is that it's
21:22just it's potential tension potential kind of does it threaten the brotherhood and all this before a
21:28very emotionally intense game against argentina i have to say i i don't think it'll be an issue i
21:35think everyone would put into the context of the the aftermath but it's still it's an interesting
21:40discussion point uh for the future and also speaks as opposed to the type of personality
21:46that um bellingham is also i feel i should credit ken early for this because he's crediting me and his
21:51peace for the irish times on monday but to do he like he was going on about you know the
21:55michael
21:55jordan parallel which has been referenced before and we know that bellingham has watched the last
21:59dance during euro 2024 you know how he was influenced by that and there does feel there are
22:04there are shades of it in this competition and maybe this is what happens when you've got a really
22:09competitive personality like that speaking after a performance like that but then tuchel's a competitive
22:14personality himself although in the last dance obviously michael jordan is is the other character
22:19like he's the one telling all his teammates you're not you didn't play well enough like even if they
22:23win so he's kind of the flip the role i don't think bellingham there are there is footage that
22:28exists of bellingham being given to that as well yeah i can imagine yeah yeah it's true i think it's
22:34interesting though just from bellingham's perspective because he is now talking to the media as if he's
22:39captain and he's talking to the media from such a position of power because he knows he's england's
22:44main man he knows tuchel can't possibly take him off even if he feels kind of any kind of animosity
22:50towards his comments he knows that the whole idea that six weeks ago morgan rogers would start over
22:54him now looks absolutely fanciful so like it it speaks to where bellingham is in his game right now
23:00how he's carrying them forward that you know they're both such blunt characters sometimes when
23:05they're speaking to the media i think that authenticity is what might push england through
23:09to a world cup final i really do there's no way we'd have had that kind of honesty that kind
23:14of
23:14frankness under previous generations of england managers and england players it's all way too
23:20placid in front of the cameras or almost fake almost too media trained whereas with tuchel and
23:26bellingham you've got a dynamic whereby they will both say what they what they think um 100 back backing
23:32behind themselves and and move on and take the consequences but their play but bellingham is
23:36playing so well that there's no way i don't think it can cause a rift unless the the alternative is
23:41that the emotion gets too much goes too high and and bellingham does something rash like a like a
23:46silly tackle and a red card he was obviously on a yellow he spoke he spoke quite well after the
23:50game
23:50yesterday about how his his mum had been telling him all week not to get too too passionate or get
23:56or
23:56lose his temper because he was on a yellow card unfortunately he didn't so yeah it's created a
24:01fascinating dynamic but i think one that will that will really help him and i think it's different
24:04from what we've seen in years gone by one of that as well because i know some people have this
24:08is
24:09aside from the kind of england against the media thing another discussion that has kind of arisen
24:13from this is how this is why tuchel ultimately falls out people and like there's been a bit of like
24:18people have been faring that this shows that uh bellingham doesn't like tuchel i wouldn't go that
24:23far and really it doesn't matter for players like his manager because like the reason that tuchel has left
24:27jobs early it isn't because of his relationship with the players they generally love him
24:30and actually one of his great qualities is actually getting great performances out of
24:35like exceptional talents who maybe have because of that talent can have more demanding personalities
24:41i mean the most prominent example is actually neymar outside his 14 15 season at barcelona and i've
24:47spoken to a lot of people about this did a piece in the past um it was the way tuchel
24:54worked on
24:54neymar got what was by far his best season of paris angeman which was 1920 so i really don't think
25:02that's that's an issue here and there's another angle to it as well and i did something on this
25:08before the democratic republican congo game and it's a follow-on from the kind of whole last dance
25:14thing so people that know bellingham have said to me that he's consciously adopted the sort of the
25:20outlook the personality the profile of the big american sports stars and there probably is just
25:25an element that like that that as you say you as you said there lawrence english football in particular
25:31let alone english sport outside boxing maybe hasn't really seen too much of that that that with that
25:36brashness that that kind of that that uh extent of forthrightness and that's why when bellingham does
25:44things like that it does jar more because we're not used to it but it's also it's um well it's
25:50a
25:50new era and now potentially bellingham's era because as you said there kieran he's speaking
25:54like the captain and this has gone from a team that as we said in the on the eve of
25:58the tournament
25:59harry kane's team already from that quarter final performance it is now very evidently jude
26:04bellingham's team even if he's not yet captain in name all right we'll take a break and when we get
26:08back we will talk about the history of england and argentina and spain versus france in more detail
26:17so miguel as we said earlier the game you were going to on wednesday england versus argentina
26:22great rivalry between those two teams they've only met five times in world cups a couple of times in
26:29the 60s which england won then obviously the famous well perhaps one of the most perhaps the most
26:36famous world cup game i don't know in 1986 then we had 1998 england obviously losing and david
26:43beckham getting sent off after michael owen's wonder goal and then 2002 was the other game the group
26:49stage win for england so two absolute classics i guess in there out of those five but obviously a
26:54lot more to the history of england and argentina miguel than just football yeah and it's funny how
27:00the way these things work it's obviously coincidence but sometimes can feel as if there's an element of
27:06mysticism about it where just as we mentioned all this history this game has already been
27:12surrounded by so much history i mean first of all the very fact that one of england's games is
27:15competition was a long-awaited match at the azteca again which was the scene of course that 86 game
27:21just two days before the match then atonio ratan sadly passed away and he was the figure i suppose at
27:28the center of what sparked the foot the pure football rivalry between these nations given that he was sent
27:34off in that 1966 quarterfinal you know he was the main subject of alframsley calling the argentine
27:40time players animals in a kind of insult that still linger to this day and then of course maybe
27:46summing up the uh the relative less hardness of the modern game although diego simeone might disagree
27:53with this then you've got the picture of beckham and simeone you know beckham describing his old
27:58friends but but like and but these are like three little examples before the game you just feed into
28:03this but then there is of course the real emotional context of this match and i think this is really
28:10interesting because on the english side this isn't really going to be felt i think to english people
28:15and this is like what my my friend and journalist rory smith said where to england it feels like just
28:21a football rivalry and whereas in argentina and this is illustrated by the fact but if you actually
28:29listen to the chants they're going to be singing in the build-up to the game after game if you
28:32listen
28:33to the famous muchacho song that was basically their soundtrack of 2022 because obviously every
28:39tournament argentina have one specific song they all mention malvinas the falklands it you see signs
28:46for malvinas everywhere in argentina it's constantly referenced and it does mean that like if this for
28:54england is a football match that means more than any other football match in the sense that kind of
28:59it can give them their biggest game in 60 years for argentina it's more of a more than a football
29:04match
29:05because of that history because there's so much coming into and i've already seen kind of like
29:08stuff among argentine and argentine media about trying to play all this down let's not get into the
29:13history and i and there's obviously always been an irony to this because argentina because of its
29:17history because of certain kind of uh cultural uh links it's actually always been an anglophile
29:25country i mean jonathan wilson's book is very good in this angels with dirty faces and i think and
29:30there's so much of this infusing it that like is going to make this well if you play into the
29:36the drama
29:37the emotion and the epic nature of the game to go as you say the fact we're picking up from
29:42uh
29:43from 1986 above all but also like it's funny i mean for all the talk of 1986 1980 1998 was
29:50one
29:50of the most epic games i've ever seen uh it was an incredible world cup match my favorite actually
29:56beyond beyond the political context is is the fact leon or messi has never played england
30:00i i think that's just incredible not not not one friendly i think you know it must be quite hard
30:06fixtures to organize because of the political connotations but not one random match up in a
30:10knockout game so i mean it's something messi mentioned himself in the mix zone so i think i
30:15think i think i think that's really fascinating isn't it like the fact he's never played england
30:19like for everything he's done in his career and he's now it's going to be in a world cup semi
30:23-final
30:23it really doesn't get any bigger i think that's one of the great things about world cups that it's
30:28that exclusivity of a match like this like where you feel like oh wow i get to watch england
30:34the argentina and i have to sit down and watch it because it's a once in a generation moment like
30:39that i feel like that's so special and completely sort of undermines that ludicrous argument of
30:45having a world cup every two years or you know that kind of thing i think it's so yeah so
30:48special
30:49miguel can i just take you back to earlier you talked about the animal comment from sir alf ramsey
30:55which kind of sparked i think that was really the beginning of this rivalry and a hatred for england
31:00not just from argentina but i think from south american football fans generally in that at that time
31:05was it just remind us of that comment if you remember it i mean was it i believe it was
31:10around
31:12argentinian players were they deliberately urinating in the england changing room or in the tunnel or
31:16something is that right yeah how it came about well i think it was basically it's a consequence of
31:20there and i think about it i think there's only one one booking in that game i think that way
31:24so
31:24the story wasn't it was afterwards they urinated but that was also a follow-on of how the game had
31:29become more aggressive and look this is the 60s um where it was not just permissive in social norms but
31:35also in tackling and that was yeah and yeah he was and what like ramsey was talking about how you
31:42know um you know we we just want to play football but it's amazing now like 60 years on how
31:49damaged
31:50ramsey's images in in argentina because of that where he is kind of he does signify almost a certain
31:57english attitude to argentina but obviously then amplified by the falklands almost two decades
32:03decades later and yeah there's just so much swirling around with this match all right the
32:09other semi-final has its own kind of different rivalry i suppose mikirin you touched on it earlier
32:13the fact that spain and france have played each other quite a lot of times recently some good matches
32:18lots of goals i mean could be could this be a a world cup classic or is it all just
32:25set up to be a
32:26little bit of a a damp squib just the fact that two probably the two best teams in the tournament
32:30it feels like it should be an absolute humdinger doesn't it but maybe styles make fights don't
32:35they maybe maybe it won't be yeah it's a it's a good point i i'm not i'm not sure i
32:40think i think
32:42spain's obsession with keeping the ball just plays right into france's hands as the way i see it with
32:48with the pace they have up front the quality they have on the wings because i think spain dominate the
32:53midfield battle and i think defensively they're more sturdy as well than france but france's attack is
32:57just it just lights out isn't it so i i actually see a world where france win quite comfortably like
33:04i i do see i do see that that happening i think they're just so strong and i don't see
33:09a world
33:10where spain spain have kind of been a bit edgy the last two games i wasn't overly impressed i was
33:14at
33:14the game against belgium i wasn't overly impressed with them i thought belgium had a few half decent
33:18openings in the second half and if they are a bit more authoritative in those positions they could
33:22have scored a second and obviously spain only got through in the end because of a goalkeeping error
33:27so i i think spain have been a little bit underwhelming their previous match was against
33:31austria austria were second right nation at this tournament but against portugal and against
33:37belgium it hasn't really looked top whereas france are are like a step above both those teams we're
33:43probably the best player in the tournament in killing mbappe assuming he's fully fit which i think
33:47he is i i think it's a real tough task for spain i think it's and it's just fascinating because
33:52france are
33:52the favorites with the bookies because of their form but spain have won the last two big encounters
33:57in the last two years which does count for something like only four of france's current squad
34:02have were in that 2018 winning squad so only four of them have won a tournament and have that know
34:06-how
34:06of how to get it done whereas spain the majority of their squad played in in euro 2024 so i
34:12think that's
34:13that helps spain's cause i think their recent record against france helps their cause but yeah i would
34:17still put france as the favorites fair miguel i mean we haven't seen the best from lamin yamar have
34:22we in this tournament is that i know he came in with an injury do we do we put he's
34:28done okay
34:28obviously he just hasn't absolutely lit it up like some of the other stars in the tournament and where
34:32do you see his game at the moment and can he hurt france so there are two schools of thought
34:37on that
34:37already are really kind of two ideas that feed into the one thing one is that as kind of kieran's
34:42touched on spain basically have the most complete tactical idea in this competition because they're
34:48so immersed in that positional game essentially pep guardiola football although the spanish would call
34:53it the spanish idea now like no one else can do it the way they can and it means that
34:57the closest to
34:58an elite club side where everything is much more programmed that means that someone like lamin yamal
35:04he doesn't have the freedom that other top stars do although de la fuente does give yamal and
35:10more interpretation a bit like what de champ has more fully allowed with the french team
35:15the second is actually and this is someone that's someone on the spanish side put to me today
35:20yamal is double marked in basically every single game and what has actually happened i mean this is
35:24actually maybe shouldn't be overlooked usually at least one of those markers has gone off exhausted
35:30which kind of says something and i think also yamal is aware like obviously like he can't puppy all
35:35these other stars are scoring he hasn't yet and maybe a little bit like iniesta in 2010 who also
35:40came into that competition with an injury is this where they stay you know you've got a player like
35:45that in a structure like that where they're saving it for their best moments and just from what kieran
35:49mentioned as well like again i've done a piece in this for monday morning about like it's this is
35:55superficially the best defense against the best attack but really that's only in record because
35:59like this like obviously this isn't actually a battle between a front line and a flat back four
36:04it comes from just their wider structures and it like it is potentially a bit of um a game for
36:10it's one of those kind of tactical landmark games a bit like kind of brazil italy in 1982
36:16in how it's one approach against another approach as i said spain's positional game and this new
36:22developing school of relationism which is basically about giving attackers more individual freedom to
36:30kind of to play off instinct it's maybe a little bit of a surprise that it's deschamps that has
36:35brought this but then deschamps is a pragmatist and a pragmatist in the truest sense and suddenly
36:39he's got a lot of attackers so a lot of brilliant attackers so why not play to their strengths
36:44and so yeah it is that that's the real contrast between it's not a defense against attack it's
36:50basically the positional game against what deschamps is doing with france and that means that for all
36:56the focus on defense and attack i think the really interesting area here is the midfield and so what
37:00i've been told from people close to the french team is obviously they're going in a massive confidence
37:04they think they should win the tournament there's a real assurance about them and this isn't say they're
37:08worried about it but the issue they think they have to kind of work out before the game is
37:13what they do with their two against spain's three because up until now as they've played basically a
37:20series of inferior teams france's two ravio and chumini they've they've been the engine that
37:26basically gives the front four the ball or it was kind of at least a playing at the tip of
37:30that and
37:31that that's worked in those games because they're not the same odds now where previously france have
37:37swarmed everyone they're going to find themselves outnumbered in that key area especially when you've
37:42got rodri who himself is coming to form and i think that's what that that's the real kind of
37:47tactical intrigue to this game and also where this game kind of goes through kind of a more
37:52sophisticated level of purely technical tactical play than the argentina england game and as you say
37:59it's it has felt like there is a vulnerability with spain at the core look like part of the whole
38:04spanish approach is you play very high up the pitch and that's that's where you do your defending
38:08the real key to spain's brilliant record has actually been their counter press where they win the ball back
38:12within 12 seconds like that that's much faster than anyone else in the quarterfinals but that does
38:19leave a massive expanse in their own half that mbappe and dembele will be looking at very greedily
38:25but miguel do we do we really think france are going to have the are going to double mark yamal
38:31i i i
38:32think because yamal's first goal in the euros two years ago was that worldy against france in the
38:36semi-finals so like i i think yamal is he's purring here i i think he's read i think he's
38:41waiting to
38:42have a bit more space and play a top team which will be more inclined to go a bit more
38:46on the front
38:47for not sit so deep and therefore i think we'll have more space to play it's not like yamal has
38:51played poorly by the way i've seen him in two of the last three games and when i mean some
38:54of his
38:55feet and quick feet to get past one of those two men is a joke and then he can't quite
38:59get a clear
39:00shot off and the occasions he has had a clear shot off he hasn't quite nailed it into the corner
39:04it's
39:04been quite like a placid shot in and a comfortable save for the goalkeeper i think yamal is i think
39:10he'll get a bit more space in this game because it's france i think that can that can play into
39:13his favor and spain's favor because he he's their match winner even though it's not quite happened
39:19so far just on that discussion about styles of play miguel and kieran both of you discussed
39:24interesting to hear what you think about this because we talked i remember we talked before the
39:27tournament about whether or not international football and and this world cup in particular would
39:34display the kind of homogenization of tactical play in in football the fact that most south
39:41american players now play in the big european leagues that most teams play in a similar style
39:46although although there is this kind of relationist style to counterpoint moving away from guardiola's
39:51positional style but broadly you know football is played in quite a similar way in most big teams now
39:57and we discussed that before the tournament i remember miguel but it feels like when you look at these
40:02last four teams everyone does have quite a distinctive style like spain's possession and
40:05the counter pressing france are quite kind of the vavavoom of french football i don't know like
40:11they're quite idiosyncratic in that sense england are basically quite physical which is you know for
40:16all their good talent actually all of their players are just quite big and fast and strong as well as
40:21obviously having some technical skill i love that like paraguay you can just rely on like a south
40:26american team to be absolute gits like that was great i really enjoyed that a real throwback the
40:32swiss are just reliable i don't know like argentina just quite sort of battle hardened do you feel like
40:37there is i really enjoy that there are different styles of play like do you feel like that has come
40:41through in this tournament still yeah yeah i think that is because basically you can't apply
40:47the the club approaches to the international game and it's on that as well i suppose that's i think
40:53it's why it's instructive that it's france who finally posed this kind of big ideological challenge
40:57to spain's positional game and that's partly because like contrasting with germany like in
41:03this kind of because basically pep guard the pep guardiola approach has influenced coaching all over
41:09the world but the french haven't adapted that like others and it has it does mean they have maybe
41:13a greater variety of play of positional players are producing but it also means they don't have that
41:20number six so basically spain have three in their squad two of them can't get get into the team
41:24because because of rogery but it's funny from all that um because i was like you're beginning to think
41:30about the end of the tournament now and you're big rapping all this and what it's what it taught us
41:33and i asked a coach at a premier league club what they thought of it like it's been really entertaining
41:39all this doesn't i go and like the immediate response was poorly organized low blocks
41:43and poorly executed high presses
41:49i'll stick that in the but as we're looking at it from that kind of who's the coach who's the
41:55coach
41:55miguel who's the coach yeah what team are they look obviously can't go into that but but but i i
42:01i
42:01think it's i love the idea of a premier league coach just seething while they watch like
42:05it's just yeah belgium's poor high press carry on
42:10but but obviously they're looking at it from a different perspective with the obvious thing
42:14that you can't you just can't coach a team to this level in the same way you can at club
42:19side so it's
42:19just a different form of football and yeah i think it's allowed more more freedom there are more gaps
42:24and that's actually been all the better for the game i mean look look at what are the major debates
42:29in the premier league this season it's been how controlled football is how how programmed everything
42:34is whereas this has just been a more you know you know a more glorious chaos basically
42:40yeah i have a theory that um the sort of tactical tweaks that are happening in hydration breaks are
42:45largely performative and you've got like tuchel just bellowing a player and they're just like
42:51bellingham actually for example just not really listening and just sort of throws his water bottle
42:55down and walks off i don't think anything's happening in a lot of those breaks it's just people
42:59shouting at each other and you're right like there's no kind of there's no complex tactical system
43:03that can be tweaked because there isn't one in the first place this isn't the time to establish
43:08one anything else to discuss before we uh wrap up anything we've missed just the one thing i want
43:15to present to both to you like the main headline on my follow piece from spain belgium was uh
43:20de la fuente kind of admitting that it feels like the final before the final for spain france
43:24do you think that rubs england and argentina up the wrong way when one of them wins that match
43:30and then progresses to to sunday like do you think that's a pretty kind of careless
43:37presumptuous comment for for a coach to make or or do you think it actually holds some weight given
43:41given the enormity of the two teams we should say that france are actually the team ranked third not
43:46first spain are ranked first in terms of when the rankings were put out and the reason argentina
43:50are second even though they've kind of edged through their games is because they've just dominated in
43:53south america the last few years they won the copper america they dominated qualifying so you know
43:59if you're argentina or england are you you're going to be amped up by that a little bit
44:03i don't know i think there's enough in their own game it's if it's if you get true
44:06and then once they get true yeah that's what i mean yeah yeah that won't really be talked about
44:11like um yeah oh i say like all this kind of the real final stuff it only rarely
44:16like it's something i think you can only really say with hindsight rather than because things can
44:21often go a different way that said i was beyond because of that talk i was looking through this over
44:25the past years it is actually quite rare that the favorite on the eve of the final not the eve
44:33of
44:33the tournament so basically the team that grows in the tournament doesn't win the final in the
44:37world cup it is usually the quote-unquote superior side that wins but hey we're getting ahead of
44:42ourselves here given we're talking before the semi-finals not the final uh and look well you know if
44:47france spain is being considered the real final england argentina is a real epic here just for
44:52everything that's thrown into it my sort of hope for england if they were to get through argentina
44:57is that such a lot of emotional energy and physical energy is expended on this real final
45:03between france and spain that they sort of take their eye off the ball when whoever wins that game
45:08does eventually get to the final but um that might be wishful thinking i don't know also is there
45:13there's also is there a um stat about the team who plays second i don't know if you know
45:18do you know this that they generally lose the final is that true yeah i think i mentioned it
45:23in one of the preview podcasts i think off the top of my head i think five of the last
45:26six winners
45:27have played on the tuesday not the wednesday i think spain 2010 might be the only exception when
45:32they beat when they beat germany in 2010 i think every other winner has had the extra day's rest
45:37and i don't think that's that's not that's not a coincidence that that that that counts for
45:41something yeah i feel like it should do i mean ultimately these final three games i've got
45:46four games but let's not count the third place these final three games are probably going to be
45:51decided by var like at this stage almost every game now is being decided by var either awarding
45:58a red card a penalty or disallowing a goal consistently so i'm almost certain that england
46:04argentina will be a var moment because it's just what's happening now isn't it that will make the
46:10fans really happy in the stadium gosh i mean i mean given the way this game is likely to proceed
46:14i think it's going to be a battle i didn't go and have numerous AR moments a lot of after
46:20reviews
46:22yeah yeah yeah yeah absolutely all right very good we will leave it there but we will catch up
46:28just after spain v france to see how that one went and discuss the fallout from that and also
46:34put our final preview together for england v argentina a little bit of team news
46:38and i'm looking forward to catching up then enjoy atlanta miguel thank you and thank you for joining
46:45us thank you to our producer jamie mcdonald thanks kieran and see you guys next time thank you
46:51you
46:52you
46:54you
46:54you
46:54you
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