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00:00The World Cup has been conquered in many different ways.
00:02It can be won with a superstar player like Maradona in 86,
00:06with a shrewd tactician like Marcello Lippi in 2006,
00:09or by embodying an entire football identity like Spain in 2010.
00:13On this week's episode of Copper Independent we will discuss just that.
00:17How do you win the World Cup and specifically, how will it be won in 2026?
00:24I'm Chief Sports Writer Lawrence Osler and I'm joined by Chief Football Writer Miguel Delaney.
00:28Hello.
00:28I'm making his Copper Independent debut, Adam Cleary.
00:32Hello.
00:33Ciao.
00:34Adam's YouTube channel is full of wonderful tactical insights,
00:36so please do go and check it out.
00:38And while you're on YouTube, subscribe to Copper Independent as well.
00:42Any comments is really helpful for the channel and for us to build our following
00:46as we build up to the World Cup.
00:47Adam, let's start with you.
00:49Welcome to Copper Independent.
00:49You will be helping us pick the number 10 in our all-time world.
00:55The really easy one.
00:56Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:56I mean, that's a big one for a first international cap, if you like.
01:00Is this an international capper?
01:01Yeah, why not?
01:02As he comes over to Copper Independent.
01:04Oh, I've got my legacy number for appearing on the podcast.
01:08Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
01:10We'll save our...
01:11Hashtag five, I think.
01:13Yeah, very good.
01:15We will save our World Cup 11 chat for later on.
01:19But before we start, Adam, we like to measure our lives in World Cup.
01:23So what is your first World Cup memory?
01:26Do you know, I'm really glad that question was on there because I've actually been...
01:29I think I would have struggled to recall this until recently, but I did have to bring it
01:32up for another reason.
01:33I was a really, really annoying child.
01:36As you might be able to gather from how annoying I am as an adult.
01:38And during the 1994 World Cup, there's probably a couple of memories of 1990 in there, but
01:45I was like two at the time.
01:47But during the 1994 World Cup, in an effort to get me to shut up and sit down during a
01:52family barbecue, I was obsessed with Chris Waddle, right?
01:56I didn't really like football at the time, but I liked Chris Waddle, who at the time was
02:01at Sheffield Wednesday.
02:01And my mom sat me down in front of an extended highlights replay of an Argentina game from
02:10USA 94 and said, that's Sheffield Wednesday, and then pointed at Maradona and said, that's
02:16Chris Waddle.
02:17Just shut up and watch this.
02:18And because if you remember back in sort of like the 90s, everyone had those TVs in the
02:22kitchen that were tiny and so low quality.
02:24There was no way for me as a child to identify that this was not a game being played by
02:30Sheffield
02:30Wednesday at the height of the summer, seemingly in America.
02:33And this was not Chris Waddle, and it was in fact Diego Maradona.
02:36So I sat and watched this game.
02:38I can't put the light on, I don't even know which one it was.
02:40It's weird, isn't it?
02:41It keeps saying USA 94.
02:42I don't know why Sheffield Wednesday would be playing in a World Cup, but I guess I just
02:46don't understand football that well.
02:48So I watched an Argentina game.
02:49A lot of the Argentina team had Waddle-esque hair, to be fair, as well.
02:52So it could have been.
02:53It didn't have to be in Maradona.
02:53I can be excused for that mistake, but that is my first memory of watching a World Cup.
02:58And a classic one, given that was exactly around the area when he used to play Sabutio,
03:02Argentina were also, of course, Sheffield Wednesday.
03:05Yes.
03:06Perfect.
03:07Waddle obviously ending that World Cup in disgrace, sadly.
03:15Yes, okay.
03:16Right, well, similar to me.
03:17World Cup 1994 was my favourite.
03:19Well, my first, and probably one of my favourite World Cups.
03:21And we have done an episode on it.
03:23And we've done an episode on it, so that's a timely callback to go and check that one out.
03:28Let's talk about this week's topic, and it's how to win a World Cup.
03:32I mean, Miguel, first of all, what does history tell us about how to win a World Cup?
03:37I've said it in the intro, lots of ways of winning a World Cup.
03:40I mean, how has it changed, first of all, over the years?
03:43One thing I'd say hasn't changed, which is crucial context to this.
03:47It sounds obvious, but I don't think it really is.
03:50Because even though, say, the Euros used to be considered an event or tournament with a higher concentration of quality,
03:59a Euros has been won by a Greece, a Denmark in 92, who I would say were nowhere as good
04:06as Denmark in 86.
04:07That hasn't happened with the World Cup.
04:10So, a basic point, you have to have a world-class squad of players.
04:15That's due to the greater size of the tournaments and also the size of the fields,
04:21which also means that world-class squad of players is up against groups of similar quality.
04:28And that is, of course, where the tactical differentiation, the innovation,
04:33which I'd say was a much bigger part of World Cups between the 50s to the 70s.
04:39Yes, I have read Jonathan Wilson's history recently, as well as Brian Glanville's.
04:43But I'd say that that's where actual specific innovations, like new developments in football,
04:48were much more consequential than they are now because of the way football has developed.
04:52And generally, virtually every winner, certainly in the 20th century,
04:57had some sort of distinctive tactical element that set them apart.
05:02In the 21st century, I think, certainly from the growth of the whole Catalan-Dutch-Spanish ideology,
05:12how that's kind of taken over the industrialisation of talent production that we've seen in the major Western European nations,
05:19I think tournaments have been largely divided between what I would call ideology football,
05:25an identity that a team completely integrates.
05:28It's what their entire approach is all about, but it has become a bit homogenous.
05:32And flat-out tournament ball, which is basically that type of very pragmatic football that just gets you through.
05:38I'd say France, who we're more associated with, that Southgate has tried.
05:42But I think the last World Cup caused a potential fracture in this
05:47because it felt like Scaloni took a bit of both at Argentina.
05:51And also, maybe for the first time in a long time, we saw a return to a national style,
05:58or at least a distinctive national approach.
06:00You mentioned some of the 60s, 70s, where tactical innovations helped teams win World Cups
06:06and managers were able to almost hold back and pull surprises.
06:09You're talking about Brazil there, you're talking about Alf Ramsey's system.
06:13Is that what you're talking about?
06:14I mean, two of the biggest I think of there, basically,
06:17two of the most famous World Cups wins of all time, certainly in this country,
06:211966, 1986, in both of those cases, Alf Ramsey in 66 with England,
06:27Carlos Bilardo with 86 in Argentina,
06:29they suddenly realised a formation that fit exactly what they had.
06:35And with Bilardo's case, he had Maradona,
06:37but the real trick there was to maximise Maradona.
06:40But they realised formations a year before the tournament.
06:44In Ramsey's case, it was the Wingless Wonders, which is now just a 4-3-3.
06:49In Bilardo's case, it was wing-backs with Maradona right at the centres of 10.
06:53They played one game with them, had one really effective game.
06:56Then they hid the formation away for a year and brought it back when it mattered most,
07:01which I suppose is another thing you could argue,
07:03is that even possible in the modern game?
07:05Especially as we talk on the morning of Spygate.
07:11I guess what you're saying there, Miguel,
07:14is that a lot of innovation and ingenuity comes in World Cups
07:18and ideas that perhaps trickle down then into the club game,
07:21whereas I feel like obviously now the club game is the sort of preeminent place
07:25for creativity and ideas and fresh sort of philosophies to develop.
07:31Adam, is it the World Cup, can it still influence tactics in club football
07:37and in wider football, or is actually the World Cup holding up a mirror
07:41to what's happening, what we're seeing in the club game?
07:44Will we see, for example, more set pieces and counterattacks
07:48and fast transitions in this World Cup,
07:51because that's what's been happening in the Premier League?
07:53Yeah, I think it's really easy to fall into a bit of a trap of thinking
07:57like the World Cup is a place for ingenuity
08:00or it's a place where the future meta is decided,
08:03because that only really happens in hindsight.
08:05A lot of teams will go there with sort of fresh ideas
08:08or trying to do different things with their squad,
08:09and every tournament is won with massive slices of luck.
08:14Obviously, the best teams do get through,
08:16but even within that pool, fitness plays a part.
08:19Little tiny things influence who ends up being successful and who doesn't,
08:22and then from there, sort of the club game looks at the teams
08:25that have been successful at a World Cup and goes,
08:27oh, that worked really well.
08:27We should probably try and do that.
08:29But it's all done retrospectively.
08:30You don't really see a team that does badly at a World Cup
08:33influence teams at club level because everybody just saw the idea
08:35and thought it was really good despite the results,
08:37because it's such a results-led industry.
08:40And international football has always been so, so different,
08:43so different to club football,
08:45purely because of the contact time you get with the players.
08:47It's almost an entirely different sport the way you have to coach it.
08:50I've seen a lot of people the last couple of weeks going,
08:52I really hope the World Cup's not a reflection of sort of
08:55where football feels like it's going,
08:56where it's going to be so set-piece focused
08:58and so defensive and so negative.
09:00And I keep telling them it won't be.
09:02To coach set-pieces to the standards you're seeing
09:04in the Premier League this season,
09:05that's months in the preparation.
09:07Like, it looks like you just stick 15 players in the six-yard box
09:10and drop a cross on them,
09:11but the movement off the ball,
09:13how you get your individual match-ups,
09:15you know, who's timing what run here,
09:16who's timing what run there,
09:17whether you're blocking at the back post or the front post,
09:19because these things take weeks and weeks
09:21and months and months of dedicated set-piece teams working on it.
09:24And teams at the World Cup,
09:25I'm sure they will try and replicate these set-pieces to an extent,
09:29but you're not going to see it being as important a part of the game
09:32because you simply don't have the time with the players.
09:36One thing I would say just in terms of, like,
09:37what tends to win World Cups,
09:39and it is a bit of a boring answer, is defending.
09:42Like, Argentina, Miguel's right,
09:44they were sort of the first team to really sort of manage to get all the way through to a
09:48final
09:49without defending particularly well.
09:50Like, they conceded three in the final,
09:52they conceded two against Netherlands,
09:53obviously they lost to Saudi Arabia.
09:55Historically speaking,
09:56if you look back through even some of the more exciting teams at the World Cup,
09:59I think you'd be surprised with just how low scoring a lot of them actually were.
10:04Like, that Brazil team in 94,
10:05you know, the first tournament we remember,
10:07they didn't really concede the whole way through.
10:09They didn't score a lot of goals.
10:11They won it with a nil-nil and a penalty shootout in the final.
10:14Like, that's, I loved watching that Spain team in 2010.
10:18Tell Richard Jolly.
10:20So, you know, like that.
10:22Richard Jolly not impressed with that Spain team.
10:24We had a good debate two weeks ago.
10:26I believe the phrase was crushingly boring.
10:29Yeah.
10:29Nonsense.
10:30There were a load of little passing nerds,
10:32and that's not how I like to see the game play,
10:34but I did enjoy watching them.
10:35They, obviously, they lost the first game in that tournament
10:37and then clean-sheeted their way through every single knockout phase.
10:40It wasn't thrilling by any stretch of the imagination.
10:43So the teams that tend to do well are,
10:45can you build a really robust, really resilient,
10:49like, defensive structure that can suffocate games when you need to?
10:52And then do you have, within there somewhere,
10:55mercurial talents who, if you have reduced these games
10:58to tiny margins and tiny moments,
11:00they've got the individual quality.
11:02Now, obviously, Messi did that at the last tournament,
11:03but it wasn't built from a defensive foundation at all.
11:07Like, there was a lot of tactical adaptation there,
11:08probably more than we've seen from a team that's won a tournament.
11:11You look at the teams going into the tournaments
11:13and you see incredible attacking talent.
11:14France is obviously getting talked about a lot,
11:16and you just think, that's great.
11:17That's really, really great.
11:19But what happens when a team is sitting 10 players
11:23on the edge of the box for 60 minutes
11:24and you don't really know what to do?
11:26Are you going to get caught on a transition?
11:27Are you going to get caught on a break?
11:29Do you have, like, do you have enough in your team
11:32that when you're up against it,
11:33you're going to defend well?
11:34So, it tends not to be the most exciting teams
11:37that do well in a World Cup.
11:38Just touch it on something Adam said there as well
11:40about set pieces.
11:41And it's another massive difference
11:44between the club game and the international game.
11:46And also, just the very nature of a month-long tournament,
11:49or in this case, six weeks,
11:50or whatever it is, with an entire season.
11:52Whereas, where variables obviously have
11:54a much more pronounced effect,
11:56because they don't even out over a long time,
11:58all this sort of thing.
12:00One is refereeing, in that case.
12:02Like, I just, I cannot see a world where,
12:05or a World Cup, where the refereeing on set,
12:09where the refereeing on set pieces
12:10is going to be the same as the Premier League.
12:12And it's funny, because, like,
12:13Tuchel has, obviously, we'll get into this in a bit,
12:14but Tuchel has spoken about this a fair bit.
12:17Like, if you're thinking about replicating
12:18Premier League tactics, that just feels
12:20hiding to nothing, basically.
12:22The other big one is the weather.
12:25And, like, even thinking the evolution,
12:28the club game there,
12:29but also two major World Cup examples.
12:32In 74, the Netherlands, Total Football, Cruyff,
12:36they essentially introduced modern pressing
12:39to the international game.
12:40Obviously, it had been coming into football before then,
12:42but that was the international stage
12:44that kind of starts to spread.
12:46And, yeah, like, it was incredible.
12:49It changed football,
12:50but it was also only possible in the reign of,
12:55there was a very wet tournament
12:56in West Germany in 74.
12:57Four years earlier, in Mexico,
12:59that sort of football would have been impossible to play.
13:02Certainly in midday football,
13:04there is an argument that the only reason
13:06that Brazil 1970 were as good as they were
13:08was because in the heat of midday sun
13:11in Mexico 1970,
13:13you have a lot of space and time
13:16to basically kind of express yourself,
13:18because teams just couldn't defend in the same way.
13:20And with some of the talk about America,
13:23what we know of US 74,
13:25teams might have to forget about a pressing game
13:27in this tournament.
13:28If you're not a team that's budgeting
13:30to go really deep in this tournament,
13:32if every game past the groups
13:34is like an experience for you,
13:36you don't really need to worry too much about,
13:39oh, well, I don't want to burn players out here
13:41because we've got a quarterfinal to think about.
13:42You're just thinking about that immediate game.
13:44I think you'll see that second,
13:45maybe third tier of teams
13:47who are good,
13:48who can give anybody a bloody nose on a day,
13:49but I've not really been talking about favorites.
13:51I think they might just turn up and be like,
13:53do you know what?
13:53If these teams aren't going to work really,
13:55really hard,
13:56if they're trying to save themselves
13:57for the latter stages,
13:58what if we just get out of them?
14:00And I think you might get a lot of surprises.
14:02Are you going to say Japan?
14:03No, I was actually going to say Ecuador.
14:06Ecuador, yeah, another good example.
14:07I think they conceded five goals
14:09in South American qualifying in 18 games,
14:12finished second in that,
14:14just only behind Argentina.
14:16Obviously, Kaiseido,
14:16they've got that real solid core
14:18and they're a team who work hard off the ball,
14:21typically,
14:21obviously keep a lot of clean sheets.
14:23Going back to your point about defenses
14:25do well in World Cups.
14:27And I just wonder if they might be a team,
14:28they're in the group with Germany,
14:29whether they come up against Germany
14:31and I think it's the third group game.
14:33Germany could already be through,
14:34might even rotate a few players
14:36and you get exactly that
14:37where Ecuador throw everything at that game
14:39and will not actually go and win it.
14:41That conversely,
14:41I think with the expanded nature of the format,
14:43and again,
14:44no disrespect to some of these nations,
14:45but there's countries in this tournament
14:46that would never have dreamed of qualifying
14:48for a World Cup
14:49and the disparity in quality
14:50and playing experience and whatever
14:52is as big as it's ever been.
14:54So I think you will get some absolute pastings
14:57in this World Cup.
14:57You will get think pieces of like,
14:59this is ridiculous,
15:00why are teams like this even turning up?
15:01But at the same time,
15:02I think you're probably going to see
15:04more big upsets.
15:06That's another massive variable though,
15:07the elongated size of the tournament,
15:09the fact there's an extra round
15:10and also the strangest of the first stage,
15:13which I do wonder how much
15:14that will actually influence tactics as well
15:16because I think,
15:18as Adam's kind of touched on there,
15:19there is a possibility
15:21for some managers to be thinking,
15:24well, let's keep our powder dry a bit,
15:26let's keep some of our best approaches
15:28until it gets serious
15:29and then do you suddenly get caught?
15:31Now, obviously some of this is softened
15:33by the fact, you know,
15:35what is it,
15:36of the 12 groups,
15:37eight third place teams get through.
15:39I mean, that is a far,
15:39but anyway,
15:41another discussion.
15:44You would not be saying that
15:45if Ireland had qualified.
15:46Ah, look, you know.
15:50I would take,
15:51I would have a personal view
15:52and a professional view.
15:54You would have snatched a hand off
15:55for a decent third place finish in the group.
15:58Although it doesn't really affect
15:59European teams as much,
16:00to be fair,
16:00given they haven't had
16:02their places increased really.
16:04But of course,
16:06there is suddenly the danger there
16:07in that,
16:08because if you surprisingly drop down
16:10to second or third,
16:11and I think this is a real danger
16:12for France,
16:12despite, as you've said,
16:14their attack and quality,
16:15that's just not the way
16:15Deschamps is geared.
16:16But if they drop down to second
16:17or third in that group
16:18in Norway and Senegal,
16:19suddenly your path through
16:21is so much more different.
16:22And again,
16:23that potentially,
16:24that shapes how teams play.
16:25It's just another variable
16:27in this competition
16:28that didn't really exist
16:29in the same way in the past.
16:31I suppose one thing,
16:32given like,
16:32kind of open and touching
16:33on kind of the history
16:34of the tournament,
16:35do we think it's actually
16:35any way possible
16:36for someone to do
16:38like a Brazil 1958 now
16:40and unleash
16:41a totally new idea
16:43like the way,
16:44all right,
16:44they didn't invent fullbacks,
16:45but they essentially
16:47popularized the concept
16:48of a fullback
16:49who would attack
16:49in 1958.
16:50Is that really possible
16:52in the world now?
16:53Like, I mean,
16:53because another,
16:54I suppose,
16:55flipped parallel there
16:56is in 74,
16:58total football
16:59is popularized
17:00by the World Cup,
17:00but it had basically
17:02been in existence
17:03for almost a decade
17:04beforehand
17:04at Mikael Zajax.
17:06In 2010,
17:07it's almost the same
17:08sort of thing
17:08except everyone had seen
17:10Guardiola's Barcelona
17:11so by the time Spain
17:12are playing in 2010
17:13Switzerland know
17:13exactly what to do.
17:14We touched on this,
17:15I did the video
17:17on the 1966 World Cup
17:18for the channel
17:18and it was as much
17:20sort of breaking down
17:20the game itself
17:21as it was explaining
17:22how it got to that point
17:23and obviously we touched
17:23on there,
17:24like,
17:24Ramsey came up
17:25with this system,
17:26he wanted to have
17:27a really sort of
17:27narrow,
17:28congested midfield,
17:30almost sort of
17:30like a very early
17:32version of a Diamond
17:32or a 4-3-3
17:33and he put it away.
17:35He didn't want
17:36other teams to see it,
17:37he knew it was
17:37going to be fine,
17:38the rest of the country
17:38couldn't understand
17:39for the life of him
17:40why he was picking,
17:41what was the name
17:42of the lad in the middle?
17:44Nobby Styles.
17:45The country couldn't
17:46understand for the life
17:47of him why they were
17:47picking this shin kicker
17:48when they had all these
17:49good technical players
17:50and he was like,
17:50oh, you'll see,
17:51you'll see.
17:51Now,
17:52the game is so global
17:53and so exposed.
17:55If a team has tried
17:56something absolutely wild
17:58and it's worked once,
17:59it doesn't matter
18:00where it was on the planet,
18:01you're going to get
18:02bad nerds like me
18:03talking about it
18:04and doing videos on it
18:05so it is going to be
18:06out there.
18:07I don't know if I'm
18:08misremembering this
18:09but I've got a vague
18:10recollection,
18:11didn't Argentina play
18:12a formation and a system
18:13they hadn't used
18:14at any point in the
18:15tournament going into
18:15the final?
18:16Didn't they hang
18:16Di Maria out wide
18:17and he hadn't played
18:18there for the whole thing?
18:19I suppose we've called
18:20him a friend of the
18:21podcast,
18:21Jonathan Wilson
18:22has done a piece
18:24on this because
18:24he knows some of
18:25the Argentinian
18:28analytical squad
18:28and they put down
18:30putting Di Maria
18:30on the left
18:31was the most important
18:32decision of the tournament.
18:33I'm not sure I agree
18:34with that given
18:35they went 2-0 up,
18:36Di Maria was taken off,
18:38the Frenchie came back
18:39to 2-0 and then it was
18:40a totally different game
18:40so you know,
18:41but anyway,
18:42but yeah,
18:43completely.
18:44The only other example
18:45I can think of like that
18:46actually,
18:47in modern World Cups,
18:49at least in terms of
18:49kind of dictating
18:50where the trophy went,
18:52was Germany 2014
18:53when they're getting
18:55swamped by Algeria
18:56in the last 16
18:57and that was when
18:58they made the decision
18:58to actually move
18:59Philippe Lamb.
19:01It was from
19:02centre midfield
19:03back to full-back,
19:04wasn't it?
19:05And that kind of
19:06completely changed
19:07the balance of the team
19:07again.
19:08Like with Spain 2010,
19:10they were just kind of
19:10more constantly tinkering
19:12with the forward line
19:13because they weren't
19:14as fluid as they had
19:15been in 2008
19:16for a few reasons
19:17until eventually
19:18he has Pedro
19:18over Torres.
19:21Germany is an
19:22Argentina one
19:22is one of the most
19:23pronounced modern examples.
19:25Alright,
19:25let's take a quick break
19:27and when we come back
19:28we will discuss
19:28the tactical trends
19:30of this 2026 World Cup
19:31specifically
19:32and how this tournament
19:34might be won.
19:38Okay,
19:39so we talked a little bit
19:39about the history
19:40of how the World Cup
19:41has been won.
19:43How, Miguel,
19:44do we think it will be won
19:45in 2026?
19:46What is going to be
19:48the preeminent
19:49tactical trend
19:51that comes to the fore
19:52and what's going to be
19:53key for the big
19:54six or seven nations
19:55to come out on top?
19:56Look at the amount
19:57of hamstring injuries
19:58or muscle injuries
19:59we're already seeing
20:00in the two months
20:01in the build of the tournament
20:01and the real risk
20:02of some great players
20:03missing it.
20:04So we've got players
20:05going to this work
20:05up in the back
20:06of this intense,
20:07insane calendar.
20:09Then there's the actual
20:10conditions of America
20:11itself and so much
20:12talk about kind of
20:13what the player
20:14is going to play through.
20:15So I think the weather
20:16is going to have
20:17an immense effect
20:18on how this tournament
20:19goes and consequently
20:21tactics.
20:22And that's where I'm
20:24sort of in a bit
20:24of two minds.
20:25I'm not sure what
20:25Adam thinks of this.
20:27So I've been constantly
20:28leaning towards Spain
20:29for this World Cup
20:30even though a lot
20:31of their players
20:31are exhausted
20:32because they're well
20:33practiced in a
20:33possession game
20:34that's good for
20:35these conditions.
20:36But then I wonder
20:37on the other side
20:38how well a team
20:39that's well practiced
20:40in the mid-block,
20:41France,
20:42actually could that
20:43instead be the
20:44approach?
20:45I mean we're going
20:46to get into kind of
20:46the idea of national
20:47styles but Tuchel
20:48about a year ago
20:49he was talking about
20:50oh we will try a
20:51Premier League style
20:52intensity.
20:52I mean if you try
20:53that in America
20:54it could look like.
20:55Obviously Tuchel
20:55himself has realized
20:56that.
20:57It could be quite a
20:57slow tournament in
20:58that sense.
20:59I hate to bring
21:00this to the table
21:01as someone whose
21:02job is supposed to
21:02be analyzing these
21:03things with a brain
21:04but luck is going
21:06to play such a part
21:07in this because
21:08you've got so many
21:09of these players
21:10who will individually
21:11go and decide
21:12matches coming out
21:13of the back of
21:1450-60 game seasons.
21:16Take a Bellingham
21:16for example.
21:17Take Declan Rice.
21:18He might have a
21:19delivery in his
21:20locker or a
21:21lung-busting run
21:22or something that
21:23ultimately decides a
21:24crunch game in the
21:25last stages.
21:25He might also chase
21:27down a loose ball
21:27in the second group
21:28game.
21:29His body just gives
21:30up and a hamstring
21:31goes.
21:31I think you're
21:32going to see,
21:33especially with the
21:34condition of some
21:34of the pitches in
21:35America as well,
21:36I think you're going
21:37to see a lot of
21:37big players ruled
21:39out of the
21:39tournament during
21:40the tournament
21:40itself.
21:42Obviously having a
21:43bit of depth helps
21:44with that.
21:44Having good options
21:45in your squad helps
21:46with that.
21:47But I think the
21:47team that manages
21:48its workload and
21:49just gets the
21:50blind fortune to
21:52not lose key
21:53players to innocuous
21:55soft muscle
21:56injuries, they're
21:58going to have the
21:58best chance of
21:58doing it.
21:59I'm glad Miguel's
22:00brought up Spain
22:00because it sort
22:01of highlights the
22:01duality of this.
22:02I think Spain, if
22:04their entire
22:04tournament was
22:05against other
22:06elite teams, if
22:07they didn't have
22:07groups or games
22:09that were big
22:09favourites, if they
22:10played Germany,
22:11France, England,
22:11Brazil, Argentina,
22:12every single match,
22:13I would fancy Spain
22:14to win this actually
22:15quite comfortably
22:16because of the way
22:17they keep the ball
22:18and the way they
22:18can dominate these
22:19games.
22:20But I think
22:21weirdly, Spain
22:21are much more
22:22likely, much more
22:24comfortable against a
22:25better team than
22:26again they would be
22:27in one of these
22:27games where
22:28they're going to
22:28get low and
22:29mid-blocked and
22:30hit in transition.
22:31So you're sort of
22:32looking for a team
22:32who's maybe good at
22:35controlling possession
22:36but also at the same
22:37time can play more
22:38of a chaotic game
22:40when they need to.
22:41I think if I'm a
22:41manager, if I'm a
22:42manager genuinely and
22:43I've got an elite
22:45side where most of my
22:46players have played
22:47three or four
22:48competitions, started
22:49every game they've
22:49been available for,
22:50I'm looking at that
22:51group stage and I'm
22:52trying to work out
22:53whether or not I can
22:54get out of it by
22:55playing a completely
22:56different XI.
22:57Whether I can have a
22:58group stage team and
22:59I can have a knockout
23:00stage team.
23:01Oh, not just for one
23:01game, you mean the
23:02entire group.
23:03Literally, just say,
23:04if I'm Tuchel, I'm
23:05sitting there going,
23:06can I just tell Saka
23:08and Kane and
23:09Bellingham and
23:10Rice and whoever
23:11that they're not
23:11going to play those
23:12first three games?
23:13They're going to have
23:14two weeks off at the
23:15start of the
23:16tournament.
23:16Can I get through
23:17that with Morgan
23:18Rodgers and Ollie
23:19Watkins and Elliot
23:20Anderson instead?
23:22It's an enormous
23:22risk.
23:23You'd be the laughing
23:24stuff of the world
23:25if you ended up
23:25going out off the
23:26back of that, but
23:27I don't think enough
23:29is being made of
23:30just how tired a lot
23:31of these players are
23:32going to be.
23:32And also in
23:33England, maybe they're
23:34a little bit
23:34fortunate to be fair
23:35that the opening
23:36game against
23:37Croatia, which
23:37is decided, they
23:38could have done it
23:38in the third game
23:40given what you say
23:41there, Adam, but it
23:42comes a bit in the
23:43tournament.
23:43But even still,
23:44at this point,
23:45what, a third,
23:46sometimes half of the
23:47team are Arsenal
23:48players and they're
23:49now playing in the
23:49Champions League
23:50final on the
23:5130th of May.
23:51And yes, there's
23:52going to be a lot of
23:52French players involved
23:53in that, but as
23:53we've seen in so
23:54much of the
23:55discussion about
23:55club football at
23:56the moment, so
23:57many of those
23:57French players have
23:58far fewer minutes
23:58than Declan Rice,
24:00than Martin
24:00Zubimendi.
24:01Debelli's got
24:021,500 minutes
24:03this season.
24:04Declan Rice is
24:06creeping up to
24:074,000.
24:08Yeah, yeah.
24:08But on the
24:09Spanish thing as
24:10well, you're saying
24:10there, I suppose
24:11this is where we
24:12return to the
24:13obvious point of
24:14individual class
24:15or individual
24:16quality, which is
24:16something that
24:17Spain didn't
24:17necessarily have in
24:18the same way
24:19before when they're
24:20playing, well
24:21their ideology
24:22has evolved, but
24:24Jamal is a
24:25difference maker.
24:26But of course
24:26the irony there
24:27is, as you
24:27guys bring up
24:28given the
24:28group stage, it
24:29does look like
24:30Jamal is going
24:31to miss the
24:31entire group
24:31stage, which
24:33you would say
24:33could actually
24:34be good for
24:34him for a
24:35longer tournament,
24:36except maybe
24:36that's exactly
24:37where they need
24:38him, where
24:38they're playing
24:39a Uruguay
24:39who are just
24:40sitting deep,
24:41or a Saudi
24:42Arabia, and
24:43suddenly you
24:43just need that
24:43one moment.
24:45I think that
24:45late injury in the
24:46season is ironically
24:47quite good for
24:48Bakayo Saka.
24:49I think he's
24:49coming back
24:50in, he's got
24:51enough sort of
24:52big intense
24:52games coming
24:53up that he'd
24:54be back up
24:54the speed, but
24:55he's missed not
24:56obviously a
24:56massive chunk
24:57of the season,
24:57he's still played
24:57a lot of games,
24:58but he's had a
24:59little bit of a
24:59break when he
25:00could most use
25:00it.
25:01Spring break.
25:02Do you think
25:03we will see
25:05distinct styles
25:06between those
25:06teams that we've
25:07been talking
25:07about, particularly
25:08the big seven
25:10of, I'm calling
25:11that, Spain,
25:13France, Brazil,
25:14Argentina, England,
25:16Germany, and
25:17who's the seventh?
25:18Portugal probably.
25:19Those kind of
25:20big sides who
25:21potentially could
25:21go on and win
25:22the tournament,
25:22will we see
25:23distinct styles?
25:24Is there a
25:24Brazilian football
25:25style still that
25:26exists that
25:28Ancelotti will,
25:29ironically not
25:29Brazilian, but
25:30will tease out at
25:31this World Cup,
25:32or is that,
25:32has everything
25:33just been
25:34homogenised by
25:36Guardiola and
25:36European football
25:37and the
25:37Champions League?
25:37I actually don't
25:39think you'll see
25:39that much
25:40difference.
25:40Spain are
25:41obviously a bit
25:41of an exception.
25:42We know how
25:42good they are
25:43in terms of
25:44possession, but I
25:45actually don't
25:45think you're
25:46going to see
25:46that distinctive
25:48style between a
25:49lot of the
25:49really, really top
25:50teams.
25:50You've got to
25:51remember these
25:52players that make
25:54them top teams
25:54all play for
25:55similar clubs
25:57disparately spread
25:57across all of
25:59Europe, so they're
25:59all coming from
26:00largely similar
26:01systems anyway.
26:02Honestly, I think
26:04you're just going
26:05to see a lot of
26:05big teams trying
26:07to avoid chaotic
26:09games.
26:09They're only going
26:10to dominate
26:11possession really
26:12when they're
26:12invited to do
26:13so.
26:13I think if they
26:14see a team
26:14trying to press
26:15them, they'll
26:15go long and
26:16not really try
26:16and play through
26:17it.
26:17I think you're
26:18going to see a
26:18lot of the
26:18same sensible
26:21pragmatism from
26:21a lot of those
26:22top teams,
26:23especially early
26:23on.
26:25If you think
26:26about those,
26:26I think through
26:27those teams,
26:28obviously Spain,
26:28yes, the
26:29ultimate example
26:30of this
26:32ideology that
26:33has dictated
26:34football for
26:3420 years now.
26:36Germany, and
26:37particularly Julian
26:37Nagelsmann in
26:38Germany, another
26:39version of that.
26:40Roberto Martinez,
26:41he's part of
26:42that school.
26:43England have
26:44obviously kind
26:44of, you know,
26:45all the lessons
26:46taken at St
26:47George's Park
26:47have come from
26:48Germany, Spain,
26:50the Dutch, yet
26:52England hasn't
26:53been able to
26:53produce the same
26:54sort of midfielder
26:54which has changed
26:55things.
26:56And it does mean
26:56maybe, as we
26:58said, Tuchel's
26:58obviously been, he's
26:59wanted to come up
27:00with a Premier
27:00League style.
27:01I don't think
27:01he'll be able
27:01to do that.
27:02But I think we
27:02might see something
27:03a bit more
27:04distinctive from
27:05him.
27:05France basically
27:06played Deschamps
27:07ball, which is
27:07sort of Southgate
27:08ball, you know,
27:09a tournament ball
27:10if you like.
27:11Mick, I'm sorry,
27:12you mentioned
27:12tournament ball,
27:12Elliot.
27:13Wait, just define
27:13what you mean by
27:14tournament ball.
27:15Well, I would
27:15say it is a
27:17mid, usually
27:17mid-block to
27:18low-block and
27:20essentially reacting
27:21to circumstances.
27:22It's not about
27:24imposing your game
27:25in any individual
27:26match.
27:26Obviously, you
27:27need to do that
27:27when you're
27:27playing a team
27:28who are, you
27:29know, less
27:29quality than you.
27:31But it is
27:32much more
27:33pragmatic.
27:34Yeah, it's
27:35basically about
27:36cutting to
27:36fit, essentially.
27:37Finding a way
27:38through each
27:38round.
27:39The ultimate
27:40is probably
27:40Southgate's
27:41first tournament
27:41and his last
27:42tournament.
27:422018, because
27:44he doesn't
27:44really have the
27:44midfield, he
27:45basically comes
27:45up with this
27:46kind of wing-back
27:46system to get
27:47around that,
27:48which is obviously
27:49very set-piece
27:49based.
27:502024, he
27:51obviously hadn't
27:52reworked out the
27:53team at all
27:53and almost just
27:55changed from game
27:55to game as he
27:56went on, which
27:56can still work.
27:58But it's where
27:59you mentioned
27:59Brazil there,
28:00Lawrence, that's
28:01where I think
28:02they're really
28:03interesting.
28:04Like Brazil have
28:05underperformed for
28:05so long, they
28:06had Cheech who
28:07was trying to,
28:08I hope I
28:09pronounced that
28:09right, Cheech,
28:10eh?
28:10He was essentially
28:12trying to impose
28:13the Guardiola
28:14ideology on
28:15Brazilian football.
28:15It didn't
28:16really work.
28:17They're waiting
28:18out since 2002
28:18for a tournament.
28:19And it's why
28:20Ancelotti is so
28:20interesting because
28:22it was his first
28:23tournament for a
28:24manager who's had
28:25so much success
28:25at club level.
28:26And it's a bit
28:27of a, I think
28:28it's quite a
28:28strange Brazil
28:29squad now.
28:29It's got like
28:30such strength and
28:31depth in some
28:31areas, not in
28:32others.
28:32But it does have
28:33a lot of
28:34individualists, or
28:35players who can
28:35be individualists,
28:36as well as a
28:37strong defensive
28:38base.
28:38You've got
28:38Gabriel there.
28:39And Ancelotti,
28:40I mean, the way
28:41he kind of forged
28:42a new path in
28:43club football was by
28:46allowing the
28:46individualists around
28:47Madrid more
28:48licensed than the
28:49modern game usually
28:49allows.
28:50And I do, I'm
28:51really interested to
28:52see what he
28:53comes up with.
28:54It does mean maybe
28:55we have a bit of a
28:56throwback, or maybe
28:57potentially mean we
28:58have a bit of a
28:58throwback in this
28:59tournament, that
29:00Brazil will return to
29:01maybe some of the
29:02old cliches that we're
29:03used to because of
29:03what Ancelotti is
29:05willing to do with
29:05this team.
29:05And I, in some
29:06ways, I think they're
29:07obviously almost the
29:07kind of, the most
29:08unknown ahead of this
29:10competition.
29:11Yeah, I think Brazil
29:12could look like
29:12anything if you look at
29:13the players they've got
29:14available.
29:14Like, I know there's a
29:16lot of running jokes at
29:17the minute, like you
29:18grew up watching World
29:19Cups and Brazil had
29:20these, the greatest
29:21players in the world
29:22all playing up front
29:23for them and they
29:23played for the biggest
29:24clubs in the world and
29:25it was like such a rare
29:27treat to actually get to
29:28watch you because none
29:29of them played in
29:29England or the Premier
29:30League, so actually
29:30seeing them at a
29:31World Cup was sort of
29:31your own exposure to
29:32them.
29:33And now their front
29:34line's like Brentford,
29:35Bournemouth, Chelsea.
29:39Yeah, yeah.
29:40Mid-table Prem.
29:40Nottingham Forest,
29:42sorry, I forgot about
29:43ego's issues.
29:44Yeah, yeah, yeah.
29:45Brings me on to maybe
29:46last question before we
29:48wrap up this section is
29:49about individualism.
29:51Do you need a system
29:52and is a system
29:53ultimately what's going
29:54to win the World
29:55Cup and is that what
29:56wins a modern World
29:57Cup?
29:57Can you still have the
29:58individual flair of an
30:01old school Brazil team?
30:02Can that get through a
30:03World Cup?
30:04And I guess this gets
30:04back to a problem at the
30:06heart of the Premier League
30:06or a discussion at the
30:07heart of the Premier League
30:08which is has a lot of
30:09the sort of individualistic
30:11flair of the Premier League
30:13been sort of beaten out
30:14by systems and
30:15organisation?
30:17Yes, it's another
30:17potential of this World
30:18Cup to be a throwback in
30:19that sense that maybe we
30:20see a bit of a restoration
30:21of individual quality as
30:23regards a throwback in
30:24that history.
30:25I mean that is the key to
30:261986 basically.
30:27Argentina had Maradona,
30:28they had him for 82, he
30:29was good in the tournament
30:31but not the Maradona's we
30:32know him.
30:33Whereas Bilardo just
30:34worked out a system that
30:36meant Maradona was
30:37central and he could be
30:39Maradona in the truest
30:40sense and there is still
30:41a lot of individual
30:42talent in this tournament.
30:44Jamal for me being the
30:45biggest, there's obviously
30:46the whole debate about
30:47Mbappe and what he is in
30:48Real Madrid especially
30:48given the week that we've
30:49just had at Real Madrid.
30:51Ultimately, especially as
30:52we've been discussing about
30:53what a kind of morass this
30:54World Cup is, individual
30:56quality can stand out and
30:57I suppose we mentioned one
30:58there but 2002, that's a
31:00really good England team,
31:01a relatively well
31:02structured England team
31:03even under Ericsson's I
31:04suppose maybe more European
31:07liberal approach but what's
31:09the difference in that
31:09quarterfinal against Brazil?
31:11It is individual quality.
31:13It's just like Rivaldo,
31:15Ronaldinho and Ronaldo are
31:17better attackers.
31:18I know it sounds such an
31:19obvious thing to say but
31:20it's a World Cup kind of
31:22makes it so acute.
31:24I don't think individual quality
31:26wins you a World Cup.
31:28It's so easy to look at it
31:29afterwards.
31:30Messi winning the tournament
31:33the way he did, it felt like
31:34he had sort of dragged that
31:36Argentina team all the way to
31:38the final.
31:39It was sort of like the
31:39crowning achievement of his
31:41career as arguably the
31:42greatest player who's ever
31:42played the game.
31:43I don't think you win a World
31:45Cup on individual quality but
31:46there will be moments within
31:48the tournament where you will
31:49not progress if you haven't
31:50got it.
31:50you just will eventually reach
31:52a game where there is
31:54nothing separating the sides
31:55where neither of you are
31:57going to make the mistake
31:58required to let the other
32:00in and if you have not got
32:02someone somewhere who can go
32:04above the levels of that
32:06game and can just do things
32:08outside of the system and
32:09outside of the tactical
32:10instruction and make a
32:12decision or just have a
32:13brainwave there will be a
32:15game at least one somewhere
32:16probably more than that where
32:17you do not advance and you end
32:19up going out.
32:21We're getting into a few
32:21intangibles here maybe but
32:22again because a World Cup
32:24But it is the intangibles
32:25that's the beauty of the
32:26World Cup it's all
32:27intangibles.
32:28But because a World Cup is
32:30that much shorter because
32:31it used to be six then seven
32:33games now it's eight and
32:34because as you say like look
32:36has such an effect it's where
32:37actually the intangible of
32:39the clutch player becomes so
32:41important someone who can just
32:42seize that moment and a
32:43classic example is given
32:44Arrigo Sacchi tried to make
32:46Italy 94 one of the most
32:47systemised teams in modern
32:49football most tactically
32:50attuned team is in modern
32:51football and what actually
32:52drags them through the
32:52tournament it's basically
32:53that Baggio has a sense of a
32:55moment you know last minute
32:56equaliser against Nigeria
32:58last minute winner against
33:00Spain the two goals in the
33:01semi against Bulgaria that
33:02and that is just that is a
33:04classic of a player carrying
33:05them and through.
33:06All right very good let's
33:07we'll wrap up there I think
33:08we're short on remaining
33:10minutes but we've got time for
33:11a bit of stoppage time chat
33:13and this week Miguel you'd like
33:15to talk about best World Cup
33:18adverts and that is on the
33:19back of quite a few dropping
33:20this week we're what are we
33:21we're about a month out and
33:23quite a few have dropped
33:24Timothy Chalamet in action for
33:26Adidas I saw.
33:27Yeah I didn't like that one
33:28after well now look it's on its
33:30own terms it's a fine ad it's
33:32just it didn't it didn't really
33:33make me feel very World Cup
33:34which I think what this has to
33:36be I suppose it's the point of
33:37these ads we do the jobs of
33:38these massive corporations so
33:40we're talking about their
33:40products but the Brahma Brazil
33:43ad is incredible I have to
33:45say like that that just made
33:46me feel World Cup the only
33:48one my one slight reservation
33:49with that they're a bit harsh
33:51on Baggio like you can
33:52celebrate your World Cup
33:52history without without that
33:54like it was I thought it was
33:54a bit cruel and obviously
33:56because of that and
33:57admittedly because we are
33:58wavering on this subject a
33:59little bit yeah we've been
34:00thinking about the best World
34:01Cup ad I have got the
34:02trouble of sending the lads
34:03listicles of the best World
34:04Cup ads and yes look I'm
34:08sure what everyone is
34:09thinking right now there are
34:10two World Cup ads that
34:11basically stand out and
34:13ironically given how Adidas
34:15are generally seen to have
34:17absolutely destroyed Ike in
34:18this tournament for the
34:19quality of their shirts the
34:21two that stand out are Nike
34:22ads one the secret
34:24tournament with Elvis Presley
34:26versus JXL ahead of 2002
34:28World Cup some might say it
34:30was better than 2000 World
34:30Cup itself Cantona in the
34:33middle as some sort of
34:34empire or umpire and then
34:36obviously France 98 Nike
34:39Brazil the airport that's the
34:41one that stands out in my
34:42mind and I'm trying to work
34:44out I mean what are the
34:44ingredients of a great
34:45World Cup I think you need
34:46you need obviously incredible
34:48players and almost to be
34:49blown away by them
34:50appearing in the advert like
34:52that in itself is quite
34:54gripping and then obviously
34:56just an odd scenario yeah
34:57the one thing I would say for
34:59the Chalamet ad it's it is
35:01quite cool to be fair given
35:02Madrid Barcelona this is what
35:04maybe a World Cup sort of
35:05thing should bring together
35:06because it's all about the
35:08kind of the collection of the
35:08great stars you got Bellingham
35:09and Yamal sitting in the
35:11same taxi in quite a bizarre
35:12setup but yeah the best the
35:14best bit of that entire
35:14advert is him going everyone
35:16know each other and they
35:17don't look at and they
35:17won't even like exchange a
35:19glance so that's great I
35:20really enjoyed that I
35:21assume that is shot with
35:22them together it genuinely
35:23in a taxi do we think or is
35:25it am I just oh god no oh
35:27you can see that shooting
35:28days oh my god the the the
35:30little telltale signs of
35:32everybody being on a
35:32different filming day are all
35:35over that I don't even think
35:36they've met Timothy
35:37Chalamet gutted I'm gutted by
35:38this news I didn't like the
35:40AI or whatever it was or
35:41like the young Beckham and
35:42Zidane either but I don't
35:44want to feel I should mention
35:44on that subject of kind of
35:45bringing players back there
35:47was a great one in 2006 by
35:48Carlsberg the old Lions I was
35:51going to suggest that one I
35:53absolutely adore that advert it's
35:55so perfectly encapsulate what it
35:58is to play football at a
35:59normal like the level 90% 99% of
36:03the world get to play it at
36:05do you know what's great about
36:06that advert is the lack of
36:07there's no music as far as I
36:08remember it's just silence
36:10isn't it it's just the kind of
36:11the silence of the boots yeah
36:14all of that stuff is just
36:15lovely yeah yeah so that's the
36:16what that's the one Adam where
36:17is it all is it then it's not
36:19the 1966 team is it it's just a
36:21collection no it's just assorted
36:23old England players playing in a
36:25Sunday league team one of the
36:26shirts has been dyed pink in the
36:28wash they're getting picked up in
36:30the van except for Peter Beards he
36:31wants to ride his bike and they
36:32go past him they make fun of him
36:33the stop for bacon but he's
36:35brilliant absolutely brilliant
36:36Bobby Robson's the manager and I
36:38think I've never seen the making
36:40of this but when you watch the
36:41actual football in it it feels to
36:44me like they just had them play
36:47this team of no hopers and
36:49recorded it legitimately because
36:50none of it looks at all put on
36:53there's not like half tackles go you
36:55know the telltale extra doing a
36:56tackle against a against a famous
36:58person go keep it diving out the
37:00way yeah there's none of that yeah
37:01they're so perfectly put together
37:02and they destroyed them as far as
37:04they absolutely battered them yeah
37:06they absolutely battered them yeah
37:07which they would you would assume
37:09tell you which one we haven't given a
37:10mention to and I think it's maybe the
37:12most technically it's probably in
37:14terms of production the best one
37:16that's ever been made the Nike I
37:18think was right the future it was
37:20called and it goes through a loads
37:21loads of moments in games and the
37:24players basically either imagining or
37:27acting out you know what what the
37:29implications for them and the world
37:32is if they're like Cannavaro like
37:34Drogba gets through and he chips the
37:36ball over the Italian goalkeeper and
37:37all of a sudden it's cutting to this
37:39feature where the Agri-Coast have
37:40knocked Italy out and the whole
37:41country celebrating then Cannavaro
37:43clears it off the line and he's
37:44sitting on an Italian talk show with
37:47everybody dancing and doing this song
37:48about him being the captain where
37:49Rooney loses the ball that he
37:51imagines himself working like living in
37:54a caravan somewhere and it's raining
37:55but then he runs back and he makes
37:57the tackle all of a sudden everyone's
37:58calling their kid Wayne like it's
38:00brilliant absolutely brilliant piece
38:03of sort of like as a concept it's
38:05fantastic and the execution of it I
38:07think is probably better than any
38:08other football advert yeah yeah that's
38:11not me saying it's the best football
38:12advert it's just how that's put
38:14together is unbelievable the main I
38:16suppose one we're getting around and
38:18having discussed is Brazil in the
38:20airport which is like it's fine
38:24no come on was that was that that
38:27was arguably more powerful for the
38:29image of Brazilian football than the
38:311994 World Cup and even 2002 I would
38:34say and yeah I mean it was probably
38:37more entertaining than a lot of the
38:38football that was played in those
38:39tournaments in some ways yeah yeah
38:40and also an interest a massive thing
38:43with that as well I think a bit deeper
38:45on this because remember I did the
38:46Copa America in 2015 and this was the
38:49height of like Brazil were obviously in
38:51the middle of this long drought and a
38:53lot of the discussion around that was
38:54how obsessed the country had become
38:56which is winning and how destructive
38:58that was for their national football
39:00culture and they kind of created this
39:02ugliness it makes something about that
39:04night card really interesting which
39:05people probably don't remember and at
39:07the end of it Ronaldo misses and this
39:09is Ronaldo at like the peak of his
39:12yeah he hits the ball doesn't he
39:14and he's up for the laugh that like
39:16you can imagine a lot of players today
39:17I'll be scoring that yeah that's very
39:19true right talking Brazil that moves us
39:22smoothly on to our World Cup 11 which
39:25already features two Brazilians and
39:27might be getting another one today so
39:30Adam we have been picking our World Cup
39:3111 one player each week before the
39:332026 World Cup so far in our sort of
39:37notional 4-2-3-1 formation we have
39:39Ika Casillas in goal Carlos Alberto at
39:42right back a centre-back partnership of
39:44Franz Beckenbauer and Fabio Cannavaro with
39:47Nilton Santos at left back a central
39:50midfield pairing of Lota Mateus and
39:52Luka Modric any wow that's pragmatic
39:56isn't it Modric still I mean I've been
39:58increasingly annoyed by the Modric
40:00because given my argument for Xavi
40:01last week but also given the way this
40:04is evolving I'm beginning to think
40:06that should have been Zidane in there
40:07but anyway I is he is he putting in
40:10it depends how far along the Garth
40:12Crooks scale of shoehorning you want
40:14you want to go I know people who
40:17would have Zidane and Pele in
40:19central midfield just to just to make
40:20this work well I think this forward
40:21line is going to involve some
40:22shoehorning because I think we
40:25I'm not a big fan of shoehorning I
40:27want to put that out there but I
40:28Miguel is more interesting you've got
40:31players in this who haven't actually
40:33won World Cups well it's about
40:35impact you know thank you very much
40:36we take pride in that although again
40:39I am actually the only one that
40:41hasn't won it is Luka Modric and I
40:44I think I think to not have a
40:46Spanish midfielder is slightly
40:49egregious but we've let's move on
40:51unless you've got a particular
40:52all right we'll get to the wide
40:54forwards that are number seven and
40:56eleven as Miguel likes to call them
40:58but we're going to focus on number
40:59ten let's talk candidates I mean
41:02Pele you could put as a number nine
41:04but really he was a sort of second
41:06striker so I think he can go into
41:08this number ten category Maradona
41:10Miguel I mean his best World Cup was
41:13essentially a kind of free roll
41:14number ten would you say except
41:16yeah yeah Messi obviously could be
41:19shunted out to the wing and we
41:20might have to if we even get him in
41:22at all but he's in this conversation
41:25as well and then we've got to
41:25mention some others although I don't
41:26think they'll necessarily come into
41:28the team Johan Cruyff although might
41:30be argued more of a false nine but
41:32let's not get bogged down
41:33more of a winger yeah okay yeah could
41:36Zinedine Zidane who we've mentioned
41:39Michel Platini Roberto Baggio we
41:41talked about earlier Ronaldinho
41:44Andres Iniesta would you call
41:45Iniesta a ten Miguel in that World
41:47Cup I mean he didn't wear six in that
41:49tournament I think you've missed
41:50you've missed your chance to get
41:51Iniesta in that when you put in the
41:52Yeah yeah I'd agree I think Iniesta
41:55Iniesta was the closest thing to a
41:56pure ten Spain had in that
41:57tournament he was wearing six and
41:59he but he was more kind of these
42:00float midfielders and it's sort of
42:02the idea we've had for this team in
42:03the end basically isn't it well I
42:05think I possibly imposed it a bit
42:06but we are a little bit Brazil
42:081970 Brazil 82 where because there are
42:10so many potential playmakers a lot
42:13of the positions are floating roles
42:15shall we say especially in this
42:16attack can I can I just can I just
42:18check those are the names you
42:18mentioned you haven't got Clint
42:20Dempsey in there just missed out
42:23yeah it's right okay yeah yeah
42:25yeah yeah yeah yeah your podcast I
42:27guess but I suppose like this one is
42:30our is our purest turn isn't it like
42:32it is even the player who's going to
42:35be pulling the strings yeah I know
42:37I know immediately who I would have
42:39in like I think it's obviously the
42:42hardest position to pick for the
42:44problem I think you've given
42:45yourselves here is doing these one by
42:46one rather than trying to sort of
42:47like work it out with sort of one
42:49sort of floating we've got to get
42:51him in him in I wouldn't make the
42:52argument that this player is the best
42:55player out of the names being
42:56mentioned but when you think purely
42:59in the context of World Cups I think
43:02the only player you can have there is
43:04Zidane oh wow interesting go on so
43:09he's got we've got to win first up I
43:11don't think given the players on this
43:13if you've not won the tournament and
43:15you've not been instrumental to winning
43:16a tournament I just I just don't think
43:18I don't think you can make the
43:19argument but for me World Cup World
43:21Cups aren't just about sort of the
43:23sporting excellence these are these are
43:25the era defining moments of football
43:29like what happens on these pitches in
43:31these games matters so much more than
43:33what happens in a league season or
43:35even in like a domestic cup final
43:37because they're so you know that the
43:39ten a penny comparative to a World
43:41Cup knockout game you know people live
43:43their lives and see what a handful of
43:46World Cup finals compared to like you
43:47know regular games of football and I
43:49think Zidane has been he's been the
43:51player for good and ill in two
43:55separate World Cups like I think I
43:56think he's I think he was the best
43:57player does the France won in 98 does
44:00the ill not detract slightly from Zidane no
44:02the ill amplifies it for me because
44:04it's not just like oh you had a lot of
44:06good games like Pete you could live to
44:08be a million years old you will never
44:10forget that final against Italy you'll
44:13never forget he scores a Penenka
44:15penalty and then ends his career in
44:17complete disgrace with arguably the most
44:20one of the most defining images of a
44:21World Cup final ever I for me that makes
44:25everything he did positively on a pitch
44:27mean a lot more like what other claim
44:30can I mean obviously you know Maradona
44:32is a law unto himself but I think
44:35unbelievable as he was when he was
44:37doing well and obviously the hand of
44:38God I'm sure you'll shoehorn him into
44:40that team somewhere but I just I can't
44:44envisage I can't envisage two entire
44:47World Cups without the impact Zidane had
44:50on them in fact if you removed Zidane from
44:52those two World Cups you haven't you've
44:53got two crap tournaments well but on that
44:56specific point right so this is a bit
44:58inside journalism and all at one World
45:00Cup there was a few of us with some
45:02Spanish journalists or Spanish
45:03speaking journalists and we're having a
45:05bit of discussion about all this sort
45:06of thing exactly I remember Sid Lowe had
45:08a great like sometimes we still we joke
45:10about this a little bit where he's
45:11talking about a grand mentira de Zidane
45:14the great lie of Zidane was that
45:17basically 98 was his tournament when
45:19actually his best tournament by distance
45:21was Euro 2000 because I think there's a
45:24strong idea Zidane was good in 98 but he
45:26was suspended for some of it after he got
45:28a ridiculous red card against Saudi
45:29Arabia what a guy what a character isn't
45:32that much people remember the final and
45:35in 2006 he didn't really come to the
45:37party until the last 16 game against
45:39Spain and then he obviously sets up the
45:42goal for Henry in the quarters then has
45:44the final see I think actually Zidane's
45:46World Cups they're incredible as Adam
45:49says there are massive World Cup moments
45:51in there but in terms of running a World
45:53Cup in the way Zidane ran Euro 2000 I
45:56just don't think he compares to
45:57Maradona like Maradona just drove an
46:00entire tournament and even like the
46:02way you have I'd have Maradona in
46:04there don't get this problem we do in
46:06these individual positions but as are
46:0710 though as are 10 because like
46:10essentially there's look there's a
46:11religion in Argentina around them
46:12because of what he did as LDS the 10 I
46:15think when you finish this you're going
46:16to end up having Messi and Maradona and
46:20Pelle and all three of them all three
46:23of them have in various different ways
46:25across the course of their careers
46:27redefined what that number means in
46:29football Pelle is the reason it's it's
46:32got its own name as it's one of the
46:33one of the few positions on the pitch
46:35that's named after the number Pelle
46:36emerged onto the world scene wearing
46:38the number 10 he had this sort of free
46:40role he was kind of playing as a second
46:41striker in that first World Cup he
46:43became synonymous with that number the
46:45Maradona again did it you know almost
46:46exactly the same thing LMS he's easily
46:48the most iconic player in the modern
46:49generation who's ever worn it you
46:51can't you can't detract from that but I
46:53just I just can't see if you if you've
46:56got to arrange them in a neat way on a
46:58football pitch I can move all three of
47:01those around I can't I can't move Zidane
47:03around from there he still he just but if
47:06we're talking about this specific
47:07position I just don't think and like
47:09we're talking about some of this immense
47:10World Cup history but look at Maradona
47:11because you got 86 you've got the
47:12ultimate individual World Cup 86 82 he's
47:15kind of like he's also the classic
47:17unfulfilled unfulfilled potential ends
47:19in kind of bit of controversy he's
47:20getting kicked around by Gentile and
47:22from that World Cup you've got the
47:23photo of him against the Belgian
47:25players taking him on even if that
47:27photo is a little misleading
47:2894 you've got me sitting in my auntie's
47:30kitchen thinking it's Chris Waddle
47:31yeah exactly yeah and a tournament
47:33ends in like you talk about World
47:36Cup storylines like that you look
47:38you've got the fall 1990 he's injured
47:40and basically and still he has a
47:43strange World Cup in a country that
47:44where he's been the king and then you've
47:47got the whole the drama of him being
47:48booed in Naples where he's kind of
47:50like he's swearing to himself as the
47:52national anthem is being sung and he's
47:54still got that amazing run against
47:55Brazil to set up Canigia and also
47:57that's what one dude four World
48:01Cups have gone by the Richard Jolly
48:02dictum as well as being a manager in
48:042010 all right before we make a call on
48:07this we haven't really mentioned Pele
48:09which seems insane yeah he was pretty
48:12good Pele's up front Pele's up front
48:13can we can we I mean stick Pele up
48:16front Miguel you I know you're going
48:18to want to get Gerb Muller in there as
48:19well I mean can we put Pele just up
48:21front see that's it or off the left
48:24I mean he didn't never played off the
48:26left because Pele he did I suppose
48:29because it was the nature of that
48:30Brazil team yes he wore a 10 as I'm
48:32said yes he created this dynamic about
48:33it but it wasn't as pure a 10 as
48:36Maradona Zidane were especially
48:37because Brazil had four of them in
48:391970 one of them is tossed out in
48:4158 he's like he's Vava and
48:43Gorinche with him it's any DD it's a
48:45bit it's a it feels a bit more kind
48:47of floaty should I say I mean I
48:51wish he was in Pele it has to be
48:53Maradona for me has to be Adam's made
48:56a good point that like you can put you
48:58can legitimately shove Maradona on the
49:00right wing or albeit I don't like it
49:03you can't do that with Zidane but I
49:05think it has to be Maradona I almost
49:07going back to your point Adam of like
49:08of the of the kind of the good and
49:10you know the great moment and the and
49:12the bad moment Maradona had all those
49:14as well but I feel like his were even
49:16amplified to another level I'm gonna
49:17do such a petty video in response to
49:20this an hour-long deconstruction why
49:24Zidane is the greatest World Cup number
49:2610 all right that's it we're moving on
49:28Maradona's number 10
49:29Grand Mentira is Zidane
49:31goodness knows where Pele and Muller and
49:33Messi and possibly Zidane all fit in but
49:35we'll figure that out another day
49:38it's a squad game it's a squad game
49:40it is a squad game as you say Adam an
49:42entirely flawed premise but we're
49:44gonna stick with it right to the end
49:45those are not those are not my words
49:47I've got to do a team of the season
49:48later today and that will be the same
49:50flawed premise fair enough yeah okay
49:52all right I've got very quickly we
49:53have run out of time but a very quick
49:55five trivia questions they are on
49:58vaguely managers slash tactics at the
50:01World Cup and I don't want to be
50:02questioned on whether or not there's
50:04consistency there question one which
50:07nation's golden team of the 1950s
50:11shocked the world by withdrawing their
50:13center forward into a deeper role
50:15effectively creating a prototype for
50:17the 424 hungry hit a cootie oh wait
50:20we just jump in sorry I mean I had
50:23actually had some options I had some
50:27options I've been done here I got it on
50:28golden team yeah yeah I know you
50:30should have said golden team really yeah
50:32yeah but yeah sorry yeah you're both
50:34right though Hungary led by
50:36Ferenc Pruskas there we go the
50:37Hungarians moved their center forward
50:38into a playmaking role I'm not going
50:40to read the rest of that paragraph
50:41next question two who holds the record
50:44for the most wins as a manager in
50:46World Cup history with 16 victories
50:48Adam I'll give you first shout here
50:50what I'm gonna need some options for
50:52that would you like some options yeah
50:53a lose Felipe Scolari b Mario
50:56Zagallo c helmet Schoen or d didier
50:59Deschamps I go Deschamps I'm sorry
51:02yeah I'm gonna go Deschamps because
51:03of the expanded formats very logical but
51:07it is not didier Deschamps well it's a
51:10great lie of Deschamps it is C helmet
51:14Schoen oh he also holds the record for
51:18legendary West German coach holds the
51:20record for managing the most World Cup
51:21matches which I guess makes sense as
51:23well games and he won 16 of them okay
51:26question three West Germany's 1974 win
51:29over the Netherlands in the final is a
51:31masterclass in man marking considered a
51:34masterclass in man marking who was the
51:36specific player tasked with shadowing
51:38Johan Cruyff for 90 minutes
51:40Bertie Vogt very good future Scotland
51:43manager despite Cruyff winning a penalty
51:46in the first minute votes relentless
51:47marking for the rest of the game is
51:49credited with neutralizing the Dutch
51:50engine lovely word question four which
51:55manager holds the record for the most
51:57World Cup matches engine is he the
52:00engine I suppose is the engine I think
52:02it doesn't feel very it doesn't feel very
52:04industrial for yeah yeah sort of magic
52:07touch anyway which manager holds the
52:09record for the most World Cup matches
52:11managed without ever recording a single
52:13win brackets seven matches across two
52:15different nations oh brilliant what a
52:18brilliant question I don't I don't know
52:21his name no he has one that okay guy it's
52:25is it the guy that he wears the really
52:27stiff white collar shirt he's got the
52:29maddest sort of German receding curtains
52:32he looks like the biggest power shagger
52:34you've ever seen in your life I can't
52:35remember the name for the life of me
52:36who's managed no you let me okay I'm
52:41gonna give you the options while Adam go
52:42on who you the the power shagger a Leo no
52:45not him but that's a good description be
52:47Bora Milutinovic he definitely won a
52:51game Kiroz and D Otto Reg Rehagel who's
52:55the first one again have have Renard who I
52:58was thinking of no he be he be Saudi
53:00Arabia or he he beat Argentina with
53:01Saudi Arabia or Bernard say there you go
53:03oh yeah I was there I was there who was
53:05I sorry Leo Binhacker oh great name no
53:11because being at being hacker was Dutch
53:12coach in 90 and they would they did win a
53:15game oh they might not actually no
53:17because they yelling or being hacker go
53:19on very good yeah he managed four games
53:21with the Netherlands in 1990 yeah they
53:23didn't win a game and three with
53:24Trinidad and Tobago I don't remember
53:25that to Nile Quinn denied them victory
53:28in the last game of the group in 1990 and
53:30then they played out what are these
53:31basically we're both going true let's
53:33just pass the ball around among
53:34ourselves oh yeah yeah 2006 he was
53:37Trinidad and Tobago manager was that did
53:39England play Trinidad and Tobago that's
53:40when England played them to know you might
53:42think about that now if they had VAR
53:44Crouch with that goal would have been
53:45disallowed and Crouch would have been
53:46sent off yeah yeah why what did he do I
53:48can't remember now he pulled the
53:50dreadlock pulled the lads dreadlocks yes
53:52header in yeah yeah yeah okay final
53:55question question five substitutions
53:57weren't always part of the game they were
53:59first introduced at a World Cup in 1970
54:01which nation made the very first World
54:04Cup substitution great question not a clue
54:07what was it what was it Alf Ramsey or Bobby
54:10Charlton in the quarter-final it was not do
54:14you want the I'll give you the options
54:15Mexico Brazil I don't know if it's going
54:17to help Mexico Brazil Soviet Union or
54:19Italy Italy because they're going to say
54:22I'm good I'm going to say the Soviets
54:24Italy because they had the thing with
54:25Matala and Rivera Adam is right it was the
54:29Soviets I can't give you any more
54:30information they made a substitution at
54:32halftime in the opening match of the
54:35tournament the ultimate communist state
54:36showing some sort of collectivism or
54:39sharing sharing the minutes round yeah
54:41yeah yeah tenuously I was just thinking
54:43about that opening scene at enemy of the
54:44gates what is the opening scene then
54:46it's the start of it's the start of
54:48Stalingrad where they're all just
54:49jumping off the train getting one gun
54:51between two and running at all the
54:52German place but hang on is the start of
54:54it not him kind of sniping a wolf or
54:55something with his uncle or something
54:56yeah they hear the start of the start
54:58but come on okay all right thank you
55:00Adam for thank you Adam so much for
55:03joining us I enjoyed our tactical chat
55:05and hopefully we will catch up with you
55:07again either before the World Cup or
55:09during the World Cup that'd be good to
55:10get you on again so thank you for
55:11joining us thank you very much for
55:12having me Miguel thanks a lot and
55:15everyone thank you for listening and
55:17we'll catch you next week bye bye thank
55:19you
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