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00:02Hello, welcome to Copper Independent. I'm Lawrence Osler and I'm joined today by senior
00:07sports writer Kieran Jackson. Hello. And chief football writer Miguel Delaney. Hello. Hello.
00:14And I am back in the UK after two great weeks, only to discover the weather here is as hot
00:20as Texas, but nowhere has air conditioning, so it's absolutely horrific. Kieran, you are
00:25in Seattle for Iran-Egypt tomorrow. How's Seattle? Yeah, Seattle's cool. I've only just arrived
00:31this morning, but yeah, I was in LA yesterday for USA's last game, which actually, despite
00:37the fact it was a dead error, it turned out to be pretty entertaining. So yeah, it should
00:41be an interesting one. And Miguel, you are in Boston, where France
00:46have just smashed Norway, or Norway's second 11. Tell us a little bit about that game and
00:52Ousmane Dembele's hat-trick. You say Boston, but there's some cheek to call it that, but
00:57the Boston stadium giving us Foxborough miles away. And yeah, look, I suppose this is what
01:03I've written for my piece of the independence, basically. Everyone went in looking for two
01:08specific stars and Dembele just goes supernova. And rather than a showdown between Mbappe and
01:14Haaland in absence, Haaland, as he said, with Norway manager Stalbach and Resting's entire
01:21team, we get a show from the reigning Ballon d'Or winner, who also puts himself in the golden
01:29boot contention. And one of the things I kept thinking, though, over this game is, well, the
01:34obvious focus now is, especially after all that Mbappe, Haaland, Bildel, it's going to be
01:38on another individual in Dembele. And yes, he's got a hat-trick, so it sort of propels the
01:42kind of wider narrative of this tournament. But to me, this actually says something even
01:46more about this French team. And maybe fittingly, given we're in the States, and as we've
01:53realised when you go into a Whole Foods, it's a story of super abundance. Just an incredible
01:59amount of choice. And it must be like, when you're a French attacker going forward, when
02:02you're a Lise trying to pick a pass, you've got so many options. And that's a, even the
02:11way, Mbappe didn't actually score today. And yet he just showed some other quality with
02:15that pass for Dembele for that first goal, which to me was the pick of them. And I had
02:21a few doubts about France. I've still got some doubts, given their defence, how this Norway
02:26B team got at them. But after that, and seeing this up close, especially compared to the French
02:33team, I watched the Euro 2024, that attack looks like it can overcome pretty much anything,
02:38including what looks like maybe the toughest potential path to the final of all.
02:43Yeah, so just tell us about that pass. So they've got, potentially they would play Sweden
02:47in the next round, although it could be Belgium or someone else, obviously still to be decided.
02:52And then they would play, potentially Germany, and then it would get tougher from there,
02:58basically. Is that right?
02:59So basically, yeah, okay, the last 32, it's probably more forgiving opposition. Sorry,
03:04Lawrence and Sweden, if it is then. But then it's Germany, likely Germany, potentially then
03:11Morocco or the Netherlands. Then what I suppose we're thinking, Spain. And that I think is as
03:19difficult as yet, because even if Spain finished top of their group, the path to that semi looks
03:23more forgiving than France's, unless they get Portugal finishing second. But I don't think
03:28it's going to happen now. And that is, I mean, but again, France, they do just look like I think
03:34they can overcome anything in this situation. That, like the range of attackers, and it's sort of
03:38amazing, like we'll get onto this with England. When you think that England have had to use
03:42Maduike, he's, you know, a perfectly good player. But compared to Dembele, and look, I know
03:48Maduike's there because Saka's been injured, but it almost speaks to the point as well, because it's not
03:52just that France have Dembele or Douay or Barcola, it's that they're all so fresh from playing for
03:57Paris Saint-Germain in the way a lot of England's attackers aren't. And it's, like I noticed this
04:03was a low stakes game, but it was ominous.
04:07Is there an argument to say that Deschamps actually, if he doesn't bring home the World Cup,
04:12it's possibly underperformed with what is one of the great, well, definitely one of the best,
04:18definitely the best forward line at this World Cup and one of the great French forward lines
04:21as well. I mean, Spain are the team that other people have predicted really mainly to win the
04:27tournament, but they don't have this firepower and attack, do they?
04:30Yeah, absolutely. I think the depth of France's firepower up front is ridiculous, absolutely
04:36ridiculous. And if you look at all the other teams who have maintained a 100% record so far,
04:41look at Mexico, who have looked really impressive by schedule to probably play England in the last
04:4616. Argentina, who have been reliant on one man for all their goals, and Colombia, who may well lose
04:52that 100% record to Portugal. And France kind of were in the group of death as well. They've had
04:58their tests already. They've had Senegal, they've had Norway, and they've overcome them, not
05:04comfortably. The matches were difficult, but I mean, they've blown them away with their firepower up
05:09front. And who's to say they can't do that in every single match? Because if one player isn't firing,
05:14Deschamps has the option to just bring on another world-class winger, or world-class forward.
05:19So yeah, to repeat Miguel's phrase, it's ominous in terms of how strong France looks so far.
05:25Migs, I mean, you were there. Are we maybe reading too much into the fact that obviously
05:29they're playing against a Norwegian side? The best team in their group basically didn't turn up.
05:33So is there a caveat there to that 100% record?
05:38I don't think actually, like, relying on the 100% record, I don't think matters too much in the
05:42grand scheme of things. I mean, actually, there's a quirky little stat there in that
05:47no world champion, including France 2018, has actually had a 100% record in the groups
05:52since Brazil in 2002. So whether they got a 100% record or whether it was against a Norwegian
05:57B team or whether it didn't, I don't think it really matters. I think what is actually
06:01relevant is the showcasing of the strength of this team. Maybe as well a surprising porousness,
06:09given like that, as you say, this was mostly a Norwegian B team. There was a complete Norwegian
06:13B team given the rest of everyone. And yet they still got out of France. I do think the
06:17kind of below stakes of the game contributed to that. But there is maybe still a surprising
06:22porousness to a Deschamps team, especially given what they were in Euro 2024 and when they won it
06:27in 2018. We should acknowledge that Deschamps couldn't actually be here today because of the sad
06:34passing of his mother, which led to actually another element of the day, which was this story that the
06:39French Federation actually announced that the players had requested to wear black armbands and
06:43they weren't allowed. But I suppose they, you know, you know, showed that, you know, played in their
06:49honour in another way with that display. And I suppose that might have given Deschamps some solace
06:55before he returns because, yeah, I mean, while his previous preferences in this job have been
07:04solidity, maybe an element of it is given he's got this abundance of attack, even much more so
07:09than two years ago with the way some of the kind of Paris Saint-Germain talents have come on,
07:13that he has allowed just a bit more emphasis in the team. And yes, they'll be a bit more open,
07:18but they feel like they can, they can outscore anyone.
07:21What do you guys make of Sol Bakken's decision to rest his entire team? He was asked earlier this
07:27week, I wrote a little bit about this and he was asked about Erling Haaland jeopardising his
07:32golden boot chances and Sol Bakken said, I don't care, basically. And he also talked in his press
07:37conference before the game about that his inspiration essentially for resting players,
07:41because he forecasted this ahead of time, was Deschamps himself. Four years ago in Qatar,
07:47they rested players and lost to, was it Tunisia in the final group game? And Mbappe was on the
07:54bench and Griezmann was on the bench. And obviously, you know, that didn't stall their
07:57momentum, which I guess is one of the arguments against it. They went to the final and almost won
08:01the tournament. So it's an interesting move and we'll see how some other managers deal with it,
08:07but he's essentially gone, I would happily take Ivory Coast and have my players very fresh.
08:12That game will be in Dallas in an air-conditioned stadium rather than perhaps Sweden, which by the
08:19way, Miguel, would be a tough derby game. Although Sweden look quite terrible, I do admit. And I was
08:24there to watch them get thrashed by the Netherlands. But yeah, I thought it was an interesting move and
08:28I thought, I see the logic to it. Yeah, I mean, just on that point, if it really is since
08:332002 that
08:33the winner is, not that you're saying Norway are going to win it, but it's an eight-match tournament
08:38now if you get to the final. So there is some logic behind resting players. I'm not that
08:42surprised he rested Odegaard. I'm quite surprised he rested Haaland, I must say. Haaland barely misses
08:47a game for Manchester City. I don't think, you know, it's well known how much effort he puts into
08:52his recovery, things like that. I think deep down he would be really irritated to miss such, you know,
08:58one of the biggest matches of the group phase. So I actually kind of back the move to generally rest
09:04the team. I think to rest your world-class star forward was, you're kind of almost admitting defeat
09:11in that respect. Do you then get like an angry Haaland against Ivory Coast though,
09:14who's desperate to score two or three goals? I mean, he always is desperate to score goals,
09:19obviously. On this as well, right? So one of the obvious comparisons during the rounds is with
09:24Gareth Soka in 2018 in the Belgian game. But what I'm actually thinking of, especially given like this
09:29is maybe there's a comparable emotion to it for Norway, is Roberto Mancini in Euro 2020,
09:35where he spoke at a time, now look, Italy were true, but Norway were true here. He spoke at a
09:40time
09:40about how his memories of Italia 90 and how like it really hurt players to not get on the pitch.
09:46And this sort of speaks to, I suppose, maybe the kind of certain, you know, social political values
09:52in Norway, where there is an idea of getting everyone on the pitch to play. And it will like matter,
09:56it actually will aid team spirit for every player to actually get an experience of World Cup minutes.
10:02It's something that's maybe a little bit underappreciated, especially when,
10:06like, I know we've just gone on about the kind of this, the difficulty of the French draw there,
10:11but Norway aren't France in, in that sense. So like, I mean, you could say it's much of a muchness,
10:17especially given one of them gets potentially gets Brazil in the last 16, one of them potentially
10:21gets Germany. And so from that perspective, I will actually say, it's not one that energizes me
10:28too much. Maybe there is one other element to it, which is, while there's a team spirit value,
10:35there's also an actual monetary value. And since they're like, so fans would have paid what,
10:41hundreds of thousands of Norwegian kroner to be here at a stadium that's miles out of town,
10:47you know, a very expensive trip. So it would have wanted to see that. I mean,
10:50quite early in the game, actually, we had apparently Channing, Channing, or what's his name?
10:54Channing Tatum in the center of Norwegian fans singing out, we want talent, we want talents.
11:00It's a good point. I actually forget, Miguel, you might be able to tell me, but with that,
11:03with Mancini and Euro 2020, I think he, he started that third game with a reserve keeper in goal and
11:10then brought on the third goalie in the last five minutes, because he was reminded of his own
11:16experience at a tournament, not getting on the pitch. And it was similar with what we saw in Mexico
11:20with them playing Ochoa and getting that sixth World Cup, even though he was in the squad for
11:25six, but actually getting on the pitch. I think there is something to be said about fostering
11:30that team spirit, particularly in a 26-man tournament, not 23 anymore.
11:33And Southgate, I think, actually almost did the opposite, where he gave so many players minutes
11:38that it was really obvious that one player, I think it was Ben Chilwell, didn't play a minute,
11:42and he was the only one, certainly the only outfield player. And so he created quite an odd scenario where
11:48everyone was really happy to be involved, except for one player who was completely left out,
11:52which maybe was kind of, I assume he didn't mean to do it like that, but it seemed quite harsh.
11:57Yeah, we'll see how it goes. I mean, Norway will play Ivory Coast to a very good side,
12:02but they'll be very fresh and Haaland will be ready to go. So we'll, we'll see how they get on.
12:07Miguel, I mean, this perhaps brings us on to another point that I think you've spoken about very well
12:13this week and written about very well, that I dare say set the agenda, because a lot of people
12:18have jumped on the bandwagon and also written similar pieces. So just tell us a little bit
12:21about your piece on the format and why you think essentially there's a major issue with how the
12:29world, how FIFA have, have laid out the format. It's something that I have actually had an opinion
12:34on for a long time, because this isn't just a FIFA thing, UEFA use it for the Euros. And that
12:39is,
12:39rather than the classic World Cup approach of goal difference, which keeps everything open until
12:45the end, they use head-to-head. Now, theoretically, and I do get this point, theoretically head-to-head
12:52is fairer. I say theoretically, because there's obviously this idea that, and it's something funny
12:58that I've found particularly pronounced in the States, that if you're in a tie-breaking situation
13:03between two teams, it stands to reason that the team that's won the game, that's won the game
13:09between those two sides, should go true. Where the complications come though, I suppose, is
13:15it doesn't just act as a tie-breaker. It actually becomes a preconditioner, a predetermined.
13:21So because a round-robin group, sorry, a round-robin four-team group is so short,
13:27with only three games, that one match can have a disproportionate effect. So it locks off all sorts
13:34of, I mean, what, a classic this week. There's actually so many examples where Turkey would have
13:40had a chance to finish as one of the best third-place sides. They couldn't because they lost
13:43with Paraguay and Australia. And even though beating the hosts USA, given the performances,
13:47was actually of such value, or would have been of such value, it just didn't matter.
13:52And I think that for all this talk of fairness, I think it brings so many other sporting integrity
14:00issues. Not least the way, suddenly, Germany again against Ecuador. They were already through
14:05because of head-to-head, so they could play a weakened team, or didn't necessarily play
14:08the game in Ecuador at the same intensity. And that's not a takeaway from the great Ecuador story.
14:14Yeah, exactly, exactly. So it brings up multiple sporting integrity issues. And while I get the
14:19argument that it's potentially fairer because of that head-to-head elements, I think that is more
14:25relevant in a much longer campaign where you have, like, a 38-team league. So, like,
14:30La Liga uses it for the Premier League dozens. Because then it's a kind of proper,
14:34it's an actual tiebreaker. In this system, it's more than a tiebreaker. It's preconditioning,
14:40and the effects are disproportionate in a three-match group. And I do think it's, look,
14:45when you compare the, like, the glorious chaos of how the group stage you finished the last World
14:52Cup, where you had, what, multiple groups going right to the end. I think the most memorable
14:56being the group with Cameroon and Korea and Uruguay. And then, maybe above all, the one with
15:02Japan, Costa Rica, Spain, and Germany, which ultimately saw Germany go out. And like this,
15:07it's had this kind of strange effect where, obviously, FIFA are trying to sell this competition
15:11to the states in some ways, despite football's now burgeoning popularity in America. And yet,
15:16they're kind of killing their own excitement. And it has, because the World Cup has generally been
15:21good. No, it had been, like, very good, I would say. So then it suddenly had this dip where it
15:27just,
15:27it has felt so much more muted. And right now, I haven't heard a very satisfactory explanation
15:33for a change that ultimately, no one was lobbying for. I mean, you didn't hear any complaints about
15:38the system before. Goal Different was used for so long, because it works so well, and it keeps
15:43everything open. And also, to my mind, it's no less fair than head-to-head, because it gives
15:49everyone a chance to rectify one bad day. Yeah, I have to say, I completely agree. It would have
15:55been fun for one of us to have a really strong opinion in the opposite direction, but I totally
15:59agree. And your example of the Japan getting that incredible win from Japan in the last tournament was
16:07completely reliant on goal difference and how that format worked. And I mean, just from my
16:12perspective here, so now getting back to the UK, obviously, a lot of the games are overnight.
16:15So you go to bed and you're like, oh, excited to sort of wake up in the morning and see
16:19what's
16:19happened. But certainly the night before last, I looked at the pictures and there was nothing
16:25really to really get me going or be really excited about, which is bizarre for the end of the group
16:30stage. I think the most exciting game was Sweden versus Japan. But even that game didn't have that
16:36much riding on it. Kieran, what do you make of it? I completely agree with Miguel. There's a few other
16:41elements to it as well. I think from, say, a Scotland point of view, they played on Wednesday,
16:45so I think they were the first group to play their final round of games. They're obviously
16:50in a situation where they finish third. They're probably not going to make it through. But if
16:54you're a Scotland fan, you're just going to stay in the US for three, four days in the hope
16:59that you might get through. I think that's completely unfair from a fan point of view in terms of
17:04planning, in terms of finances. And then on the flip side, it gives a massive advantage
17:09to teams playing on Saturday night. If you know the order of play in the third-place ranked teams,
17:17there's already a lot of talk on social media at the moment about Algeria and Austria almost fixing
17:23their game. It's almost more beneficial if the other team wins because I think if they come second,
17:27they play Spain. So, like, it could create an interesting atmosphere and actually pattern of
17:34play on the pitch because you have teams who are actually not too bothered about getting a positive
17:39result. So, yeah, I think having... I can see how it works in the Euros when the matches are a
17:45bit
17:46tied together, but it's been very difficult to follow as well the last three days. I think
17:50six matches a day is overdrive as well. And I think it almost feels like the World Cup will
17:56restart again on Sunday when we've got the clarity, the consistency, and the obviousness of just the
18:03round of 32 of South Africa-Canada. For me, that's when it will feel like it will start again.
18:08So many issues, I think, are related to the expansion. And I think some of it has worked
18:13better than expected. And one illustration of that is that there is a theory that one of the reasons
18:20this rule was changed was because obviously FIFA or people in FIFA would have been aware that
18:25expanding the tournament brought in a more forgiving opposition. And there was this potential then for
18:31teams to maybe run up scores and for group positions to be decided by thrashings. But actually,
18:37that hasn't really been the case at all. And even a side like Curacao, who obviously got hammered by
18:41Germany, they've still, like, they've, you know, acquitted themselves with, like, a really admirable
18:46approach. And other than that, not been hammered. So, like, thrashings haven't been,
18:50they just haven't been a factor in this. And if that was the reason, and we don't know that for
18:54sure, then that's backfired, because all it's done then is basically kill more games. And like,
18:59I was at that Brazil-Scotland game the other night, and all I could think of, especially when
19:02the news came through that, you know, Haiti were winning. And okay, it didn't win in the end.
19:07That's sort of irrelevant to the point, because can you imagine the tension in the Scottish game?
19:12Not only are they getting beaten by Brazil, but suddenly their third place, which they thought
19:16would have been secure, was at risk. And when you're in that situation, it was similar actually
19:22with USA-Caraguay, or USA-Turkey. Because although the goal difference would have required such a swing,
19:32as we know from football, and because it's so low scoring, game states change things. So like,
19:37say, suddenly, in those two games in the USA group, Turkey go one or two nil up,
19:43and Paraguay or Australia start to get those two nil in one of their games, then suddenly,
19:47the entire feel of both matches changes. And that feel and that tension affects teams in
19:52different ways, as we saw four years ago. And it does feel like FIFA have unnecessarily
19:58denied themselves this. And so suddenly, these third round of group games, which should have kind of
20:04offered a kind of fitting crescendo to the group stage, actually end up being a bit of a kind of
20:07a
20:08strange lull, or largely a lull, just before the actual tournament begins. And like, we're doing
20:14another podcast after the England game on Saturday, we'll touch on what like the last 32 now is.
20:20But, but yeah, it's, look, I'm actually, it's something I'm speaking about a lot,
20:25and writing about a lot, because I absolutely hope it's something that FIFA reverse for the next
20:29tournament. I think it's a bad decision. It's had a bad effect. Even if there is logic behind it,
20:33it doesn't work in the way intended. And I don't think even works as regards sporting
20:38integrity or fairness arguments. Yeah, I must say it was an odd sensation being at the USA Turkey
20:43game last night with nothing riding on it, no sense of jeopardy. Like even though Turkey won
20:48with a last minute winner, I mean, just for pure pride, there was nothing more to play for them,
20:53and likewise for the US. So that's not what the World Cup is about. And I think for that situation
20:58to
20:58arise, you know, people would have spent thousands of pounds on the idea that that match, I mean,
21:02it was obviously Turkey's fault, they weren't involved. But, you know, if they, if they had
21:05beaten the USA heavily, and one of Paraguay or Australia had won, they probably would have
21:10finished third on goal difference. So as it turns out, Paraguay and Australia played it safe and
21:14got a draw, and they both go through on four points. So yeah, it's, it's, it's something that
21:19probably needs to be changed for 2030, because it doesn't work.
21:22And actually, this, this final group stage as well has thrown up so many of these games where
21:27it's suddenly mutually convenient for two teams to, to play for a draw. And like that is,
21:32that is the last thing you want in a tournament that involves such kind of emotional peaks,
21:36such intensity, like the system shouldn't be encouraging or nurturing or conditioning
21:41these sort of games.
21:43All right, a rare misstep from FIFA there. We will take a quick break. And when we come back,
21:51we will talk England and a fairly major issue for England that has popped up in the last
21:56few minutes before we started recording this.
22:01Okay, let's talk England now they take on Panama on Saturday, and they've had some pretty bad news,
22:06which is just broken before we started recording this, which is that Rhys James is out for two games
22:11with a hamstring injury. So he'll miss the Panama game, and he'll miss the last 32 match as well.
22:18It's not a huge surprise, Miguel, given Rhys James's injury record. And it looks like Thomas
22:24Tuchel is very short of fullback. So how on earth have we got in this situation?
22:30It's actually remarkable in it when you've got 26 man squads, and you don't have a proper right
22:36back replacement. All the more so when he's already been given one chance to correct this,
22:42given Livermento's injury, that he could have called someone up then and said he went for
22:47Chalaba. He wanted to get into the squad even with Chalaba, almost like a safety net option
22:52because of Stone's issues. And suddenly, what I have to say, I mean, I remember we were sitting
22:56in Wembley today at a squad announcement, Lawrence, and we were kind of, it was like we were speaking
22:59mostly quite positively at a Tuchel squad, if obviously raising some of these issues.
23:05It's one of those things, if you get away with it, fine, but the risks were there. And it's just
23:10such an unnecessary invitation of problems that you could have preempted and absolutely don't need
23:18at this stage, especially when, despite that nil all, you would have felt it was kind of generally
23:22a momentum building about England. And suddenly, yeah, for this Panama game, which is a bit more
23:26pressurised than it might have been after that draw with Ghana, he's got a few selection issues.
23:31Yeah, Kieran, I mean, when Livermento gets injured, he calls up Chalaba. Can you, I mean,
23:38Miguel's touched on maybe John Stones' injuries, potential fitness issues as a reason. I mean,
23:42can you come up with any other logic for that decision? And just to reiterate, Tuchel said in
23:49his press conference, he was briefly asked about it, although I don't think he's really been pushed
23:52on this stuff enough. But his response was, Jarrell Kwanza can now play as a full-back cover,
23:59and Chalaba can come in as a centre-back cover, which to me seems bizarre, given Tuchel is very
24:05pragmatic and talks about specialised roles for players to suddenly change a player's role
24:09to back up full-back for a backup centre-back. And I really don't think Kwanza has spent much
24:12time in his career playing full-backs. What do you make of it?
24:16Yeah, it feels like Thomas Tuchel is making every excuse under the sun to explain why he
24:23hasn't picked Trent Alexander-Arnold, really. It's as simple as that. I mean, we all knew
24:28Rhys James was not going to play eight matches at this World Cup, and we all know his injury records.
24:33He gets a hamstring injury after playing two games in, what was it, six days. I mean,
24:38inevitable. Imagine my lack of shock when I saw that on social media a few hours ago. Like,
24:43it was just so inevitable. And with Livermento being injured, to not bring in another specialist
24:47right-back, obviously they've got Jed Spence, and Jed Spence will play against Panama. But
24:52beyond that, yeah, Gerald Kwanza hasn't played in a right-back in a four. He plays on the right
24:57side of a back three for Bayer Leverkusen. But, you know, to trust him to come in if, say,
25:02Spence has got a mask on his face with, I think, a broken jaw. So, you know, what does that
25:08say
25:08about, you know, the state of play we've got in the right-back area? And to go from a
25:12position where we probably had the best right-back depth in international world football
25:18a few years ago with Kieran Trippier, with Kyle Walker, to now being in a position where it could
25:23be Jed Spence or Gerald Kwanza being the first-choice right-back if we go into the knockout stages.
25:28It's just mad. I mean, I don't know if Miguel would be able to add anything to this in terms
25:33of
25:33knowing stuff behind the scenes or off the record, but, like, it seems so peculiar that Alexander
25:39Arnold was in the last two tournament squads, even though he wasn't first-choice under Southgate.
25:43But he was in Euro 2024, obviously came on and memorably scored that winning penalty against
25:47Switzerland. Surely he can't be that bad an egg in camp if that was what happened in the last
25:53two tournaments for Tuchel not to pick him, if that is the reason.
25:57I mean, yeah, it suddenly seems all the more questionable from Tuchel.
26:00You don't really hear that about Alexander Arnold, I have to say.
26:03I've seen players generally like him. It's known he's big mates at Bellingham.
26:07But there's suddenly, like, that's no question on two levels. One is obviously right-back options.
26:12But also, in a game like Ghana the other day, Alexander Arnold can provide a pass.
26:17He can give you that.
26:18100%, definitely.
26:19I mean, so from what we've heard, some of the thinking is that, ultimately,
26:25a bit like Southgate, actually. Alexander Arnold doesn't fit Tuchel's conception of a right-back,
26:30and he is aware that as good as all of his kind of attacking abilities are from the position,
26:35I think the way it's been put to us is, you know, with the way he plays, one moment a
26:41player is in,
26:41like, say, Vinicius in the 2022 Champions League final, and you're out of the tournament.
26:46So I think that maybe conditions Tuchel's thinking from what I gather.
26:50But given that's potentially one moment, and there's so many other perspective benefits that we've talked about,
26:56yeah, it does seem baffling now.
26:59I actually had the joy, Lawrence, of writing the player ratings for England-Ghana.
27:04And it was an obvious thing to say under Rhys James, to say that, like, even though James has a
27:08lot of creativity too,
27:10that that game was crying out for a bit of Alexander-Arnold ingenuity.
27:14And it will be the same against Panama's low block.
27:16It will probably be the same against whoever England faced in the last 32.
27:20I don't think it was necessary that, you know, if Alexander-Arnold comes up against the top left wingers in
27:26the latter stages,
27:27then sure, but you've got to get there.
27:29Well, yeah, and even Rhys James is a step up in terms of build-up play quality on the ball
27:35than Jed Spence and Gerald Quonser.
27:37I mean, he played that little pass in for, who was it, Elliot Anderson,
27:41who then set Bellingham on his way to scoring that goal against Croatia.
27:46He obviously plays central midfield sometimes for Chelsea.
27:49He played central midfield at the end of that game against Croatia.
27:52So Tuchel obviously trusts him as a ball-playing player who can add a little bit of creative spark.
27:57Obviously not as much as Trent, but someone who can add that to midfield.
28:00And England have now lost that.
28:01And the other thing is, I was just thinking, I mean, when you have a hamstring strain,
28:06you don't just pop back in after two games and play 90 minutes.
28:09Maximum is what he's going to maybe be subbed on in the, what would that be, the round of 16,
28:15and then maybe play an hour in the quarterfinal.
28:17He's essentially going to be limited now, you would think, for the entire tournament,
28:20if he does indeed play again.
28:22So I think it's a huge, huge issue for Tuchel and a massive oversight.
28:27And Miguel, presumably from the England camp, there'll be other changes as well.
28:30I mean, we've heard about Declan Rice perhaps carrying a small knock.
28:34Do you think Kane perhaps gets rested?
28:36And we've talked a little bit about Golden Boot and Erling Haaland and similar situation, I suppose.
28:41Wingers may change.
28:43Any other situations that might force Tuchel's hand to change his line-up a little bit?
28:48I mean, this is another extra effect to the James injury.
28:50Obviously, if Rice, who has physical issues of his own, can't play,
28:55James was expected to come in at centre midfield.
28:57I mean, Rice, outside Kane, maybe the one irreplaceable player in this team,
29:01well, now suddenly the right back is actually irreplaceable as well.
29:05As regards to wrestling players, I don't think he can afford to,
29:07because, I mean, from the results and performance so far,
29:10this is not the Panama of 2018.
29:12I don't think, look, they might surprise us here.
29:15Well, I don't think anyone can expect a 6-2 like that match eight years ago
29:20when Kane got a hat-trick.
29:21This feels like it'd be something closer to the Ghana game.
29:24So, hence, Kane at least has to start.
29:26And given that maybe the game against Ghana sapped momentum a little bit,
29:31I wonder, does he, and to have issues with the wide players,
29:34where Gordon, he certainly, he's not going to recreate his best form at Newcastle.
29:38Madweka, he's just been ineffective.
29:40The expectation, I think, is that it's going to be Saka and Rashford to come in now
29:45among maybe one who would have changed, one of them obviously being the right back.
29:48But, I mean, they've got to make sure here,
29:50because otherwise, suddenly, you're in a much more difficult situation.
29:54Because I think England can stay first, given what we laid out earlier with France,
29:59I think that side of the draw is potentially a bit more forgiving.
30:03I think in an ideal world, Tuchel would want to be at least two goals up around 60 minutes
30:08and then bring off his main guns.
30:10I don't think it will rest Kane.
30:11I don't think he can afford to.
30:12But if you do your forward planning, it would be, if England win the group,
30:16it would be three matches in eight days.
30:18And that third match will be at altitudes,
30:21probably against Mexico in Mexico City.
30:24So, like, you do have to do a little bit of forward planning.
30:27And I think if Tuchel has the opportunity,
30:29even if they're 1-0 up, to take Kane off for 20 minutes to go,
30:32I think he will take it.
30:33But I don't think you can't afford not to start your big guns.
30:36You need to win the group.
30:38Do we have a clear idea now of who England will play in the last 32?
30:42If they win the group?
30:44It's looking like Senegal now, on the latest remutations.
30:48So, not an easy...
30:48I mean, that's a team who battered England last summer.
30:51Yeah.
30:523-1.
30:52And then Mexico or the Azteca,
30:54and then its quarterfinals is only going to be difficult games from there.
30:58And then, I suppose, without getting ahead of ourselves,
31:00given those would be two difficult games,
31:03suddenly, given we're talking about all these injuries,
31:05regardless of how forgiving or otherwise the path is,
31:07you've got the accumulation of minutes and physical fatigue.
31:10And then, suddenly, you're potentially in a game in Miami against Brazil.
31:16And I have to say, that's one thing about Miami.
31:18I did feel some sympathy for the Scots.
31:20I mean, kind of the wider debates about that team,
31:21because, like, look, people won't have too much sympathy,
31:24given London at the moment.
31:25But, out of everywhere I've been in the States so far,
31:28including an extremely hot Dallas,
31:30I don't think temperatures were as high in Miami,
31:32but it was much more punishing because of the humidity.
31:35And that is, they are not conditions you want to go into with a fatigued squad.
31:39Well, and the Dallas and Houston stadiums, obviously, are air-conditioned as well.
31:42So, in terms of the US, sort of, stadiums,
31:45yeah, Miami is probably the worst one to play.
31:48All right.
31:49Well, it's obviously a long time away.
31:50England have got to get there first.
31:51So, we'll see how they get on on Saturday.
31:53And we'll catch up with you, Miguel, after they play Panama.
31:57Good to speak to you.
31:58Good to see you, Kieran.
31:59Enjoy Seattle.
32:01Yeah, I mean, it's, I was saying just before we came on,
32:04it's Iran-Egypt, and Iran really needs to win.
32:06So, I think it would be a great story for the tournament
32:08if Iran could get through to the knockout stage.
32:10And it's also the World Cup Pride match.
32:12So, we'll see how the atmosphere is pre-match.
32:15Might be a bit interesting.
32:16Yes, it might be.
32:17All right.
32:17Looking forward to hearing about that.
32:19All right.
32:20We will leave it there and catch up in a few days' time.
32:23Thank you to Jamie MacDonald, our producer, as ever.
32:26And speak to you guys soon.
32:27Cheers.
32:28Thanks, guys.
32:29I'm going to thank you for this.
32:31That's in very good time, Lawrence.
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