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00:02Good morning, and it is morning here now in Mexico City, and welcome to Copper Independent
00:07after one of the great World Cup occasions, and a pretty brilliant match as well.
00:11I'm Kieran Jackson, and I'm joined by Chief Football Writer Miguel Delaney.
00:14Hello.
00:15To go over England's thrilling 3-2 win over Mexico in the last 16 of the World Cup.
00:20We've just got back to our hotel rooms, where it was a pretty thunderous Azteca stadium
00:24for the whole day, really.
00:25The noise, the passion, both in the terraces and on the pitch.
00:29It was something to behold, really, and it's what the World Cup is all about.
00:32And as for England, they just got it done.
00:34A due Bellingham double and a Harry Kane penalty, those two again, was enough to inch over the
00:39line despite playing basically 45 minutes with 10 men after Daryl Quance's red card.
00:44Miguel, it's hard to know where to start, really, but let's speak firstly about the occasion
00:50as a whole at the Azteca.
00:52It didn't disappoint, did it?
00:53No, I mean, it was very much an epic game befitting of the stadium.
01:01And it's funny, just thinking back as well, we were obviously talking about this during
01:04the game.
01:05We said the depressed box is not right in the middle of the pitch.
01:08It's kind of towards one side.
01:09And we happen to be at the side where Maradona scored twice against England and Carlos Alberto
01:15scored that goal in 1970.
01:16Which kind of just immediately informs the sense of history.
01:19I remember being struck by that before the game.
01:21The game gets going, obviously, it actually started a little slow, but then it escalates
01:26into this absolute epic.
01:29I would say almost possibly, look, even if it didn't have moments like the ones we were
01:34talking about, that is arguably the most dramatic World Cup game England have won, I would say.
01:42Sorry, most dramatic World Cup knockout England have won.
01:45Look, obviously there's the 1966 final stands in on its own.
01:49But in terms of kind of a regular knockout, I mean, I can't think of Adam that went to
01:54those extremes, had those emotional demands.
01:58And look, we'll get into it, but it was another game that showed flaws in England, another game
02:02where they lost control.
02:04I think that's maybe more forgivable in the circumstances.
02:06But even if you don't accept that argument, England showed a real perseverance, belief, whatever
02:12word you want to use, resolve.
02:13Like, it's a real quality.
02:15Yeah, absolutely.
02:17I agree with you about the magnitude of England's win.
02:20I think there was so much talk in the build-up about all the things which weren't in their
02:24favour, whether it be the altitude, whether it be the fans, the wave of momentum with the
02:29Mexican team and in the country facing a co-host, the ghost of 1986.
02:34There was just so much going into it.
02:37And I think the way England dealt with all that, obviously, absolute star showing from
02:42Jude Bellingham.
02:43It's either Bellingham or Kane at the moment, isn't it, Miguel, at this tournament?
02:45I mean, the way Bellingham kind of took the game by the scruff of the neck, made those
02:49runs, took those goals.
02:51It's some showing from both of them at the moment, isn't it?
02:53And the fact that England have two talisman like that stands them in good stead.
02:57Yeah, they pretty much trade influential performances, really.
03:01One scores two one day, one scores two the next.
03:03And of course, Kane added another.
03:04And look, two world-class players on form can get you a long way in a tournament and
03:09maybe go further than that.
03:10I think the Bellingham one is all the more interesting just because, I mean, some of
03:14what he did almost kind of reflects the pattern of the game as well.
03:16Like, it's amazing.
03:17The game actually started relatively slowly, I would say, given what we were about to
03:20see.
03:21And I think that was influenced by all the conditions, all the talk about altitude.
03:26I think Tuchel went for a contained approach to hit Mexico on the counter.
03:32And there was a while when it worked absolutely perfectly because Mexico did start to kind
03:39of play the ball around.
03:40They started to put England under pressure.
03:41But England seemed at least comfortable to play that way because they knew to get openings,
03:45which they did.
03:46And both of Bellingham's goals came from one was a counter.
03:49The other was a counter press.
03:50But even in moments before his first goal, he suddenly got the ball in his own half, drove
03:55the ball with the pitch.
03:56They ended up kind of going, well, not nowhere, but like he was challenged near the box.
04:00Mexico managed to hack the ball away.
04:01But it felt like that almost changed the momentum of things and kind of gave Mexico a concern
04:07about England.
04:08They could, like, I was supposed to see what they were up against.
04:09Because look, let's be fair.
04:10There is a quality gap between these sides.
04:12You don't have to look at the kind of club level of all these players.
04:15But Bellingham, he was crucial in doing that and changing the tone of the game, scoring
04:18two goals that were ultimately decisive.
04:20Despite the way it kind of, the game developed and escalated, Mexico never got level.
04:26And that was ultimately because of Bellingham's initial influence.
04:29Yeah, and I think it was so interesting the way the game flipped.
04:33So the first half of an hour, as you said, wasn't, was pretty, like, pretty standard stuff
04:37for the opening of a big game.
04:39It was quite risk-free.
04:40Like, it was, there was very safe passes.
04:42It wasn't really much going on.
04:44And then it all, it all tipped.
04:46And even the end of the first half, Mexico had three really good opportunities to draw
04:50level.
04:50It didn't quite happen.
04:51And then you had the big flashpoint and early in the second half, which was Jarrell
04:55Quanta's red card.
04:56I mean, Thomas Tuchel afterwards said he didn't agree with the decision, said it wasn't enough
05:00to overturn it.
05:01It should be noted that the referee didn't actually give a foul when it occurred.
05:06Quanta seemed to get the ball, but then replays show he did go over the ball and then into
05:10the shin of the Mexican player.
05:12Can Tuchel have many complaints?
05:14So Tuchel did, yeah, as you say, he disputed it.
05:17I thought it was a red card.
05:18I have to say, look, I know it looks worse when you slow it down.
05:20And the way he goes in, though, you know they're going to be fouls.
05:24You know they're going to be kind of reds in that way.
05:26But it's when you mentioned the kind of the siege towards the end of the first half or
05:31Pickford.
05:32I mean, I think it was actually, to be fair, the header, the first brilliant save from
05:37Jimenez came much earlier in the game.
05:38It was kind of the first big flashpoint of the match.
05:40The second, though, was obviously in this spell.
05:42And that was something more like I expected from Mexico towards the end of the game that
05:46we didn't see to the same extent.
05:48And I think, to be fair to Mexico, it was all the more impressive, given at 2-0, I have
05:52to say, I thought that game was finished.
05:54I just couldn't see a way back.
05:55Again, there was the quality gap.
05:56It was like England had done the hard part, even allowing for the context.
06:00And even the Mexican fans started singing Cicero Puerta.
06:02And again, like the crowd throughout.
06:04That was just another incredible element of the occasion.
06:07Just the noise.
06:07And also the graciousness and the very good relationship between the fans, to be fair.
06:11They started singing Cicero Puerta, like, yes, we can.
06:14And I was thinking, that sounds a bit half-hearted.
06:16That's coming from hope or nothing.
06:17But then they did up it.
06:19So I'm curious what you think of this, Ciarán.
06:22Because actually, I put this on social media and typically there's a bit of pushback.
06:25And like, obviously, the context of the game are like the altitude, the momentum, the
06:31emotion, the circumstances.
06:34Even allowing for that, though, I thought at 2-0, England should, a team of aspirations
06:39to win the World Cup, should be able to control that game from 2-0 out.
06:44And they didn't.
06:45They allowed it to become another dogfight.
06:46And even if the reasons were different for this one, that's three out of five games that's
06:50descended into.
06:51Now, I have evolved my opinion on that a little bit since the game's gone on.
06:54But that moment, I was thinking, this is another bad sign for England, that they've
06:59allowed this game to slip out of their control.
07:00What were you thinking?
07:02Yeah, I kind of agree.
07:03Have you firstly pushed back on social media, Miguel?
07:06I mean, no way.
07:07But I mean, I think England's game management is kind of, yeah, lacking at the moment.
07:14I think that's definitely the case.
07:15I think when you went 2-0 up, you know, we conceded a free kick, which was needless.
07:20Concert didn't clear the ball properly from that free kick and that led to the Mexican
07:23goal.
07:23And once you give Mexico as a team and as a fan base an avenue back into the game, then
07:29all this shift in momentum afterwards with all the golden chances, I can see how that's
07:33happened.
07:33You just can't give them the opportunity in the first place.
07:35And it's kind of similar with the second half because England at 2-1 were fine and
07:40Qantas gets the red card.
07:41But then ironically, England actually go out at the other end and score straight away.
07:45Gordon does brilliantly to win a penalty.
07:46And obviously, Kane puts it away.
07:49But again, like it's the case of letting Mexico back into the game with, you know, Kane not
07:54knowing a player was behind him.
07:55I thought it was a penalty.
07:57I have to say, like, I think he kicked the man and the man pushed the ball upwards.
08:04Yeah, for sure.
08:05And like, I'm not a fan of VR as much as the next person, but I think the referee got
08:08those calls right, to be honest.
08:10And then it gives Mexico a chance back into the game.
08:12And then with 10 men, with knackered bodies and sitting deep, because Tuchel switched,
08:17didn't he, straight away to basically a 5-3-1 with Kane out front on his own.
08:23And he barely touched the ball and then came in off in the closing minutes and Bellingham
08:26played as like a false nine.
08:28It was backs against the wall.
08:29And the fact England came through that is really testing of their team spirit.
08:33But also, could they have let it get to that point?
08:35Probably not.
08:37Yeah, but I suppose there's two things there.
08:39Yes, they shouldn't have let it go to that point.
08:40But I think what's become, and this is why my opinion has evolved a bit, I think what
08:44is very impressive about England, as well as the resolve, tied to the resolve, is that
08:49they do adapt well and solve problems.
08:53Some of those problems are they're all making, but there is sometimes tournament football.
08:56And I suppose this is where you've got like the acumen of a coach like Tuchel.
08:59This is why he is considered one of the best in the tournament.
09:01This is where it comes across.
09:02When he can use his ability to spot things, his insight, his capacity for changing things
09:09in the moment, that's an apply.
09:10I don't like, I think that's best proven with, say, that decision you mentioned to go 5-3-1.
09:16Like when he went for that, I was thinking, this is an invitation for disaster here.
09:21This is like, especially with the way the end of the second, sorry, the end of the first
09:25half went, and the way Jimenez was like dominating the air.
09:29Except from that, I can't really recall a proper Mexican chance.
09:33And like, look, I'm speculating here, but I do wonder, do they see that ultimately all
09:39Mexico had?
09:40I mean, more like, obviously, he has a talent for them.
09:43But there was one moment, I think it was from the 80s to have a minute, when they had a
09:48chance
09:48to work the ball into the centre.
09:50And instead, I can't remember which player it was, he just turned around and played it
09:53back, so he was swinging another cross.
09:55And Dan Byrne is there at that point, he met it easily.
09:57Actually, in terms of performance, obviously he was Bellingham, Gordon, Gordon was brilliant
10:01giving some of the criticism he's got to his tournaments.
10:04Byrne was superb when he came on.
10:06And also Pickford, as well as those two saves, in that spell towards the end, he was winning
10:11absolutely everything.
10:13And from that, like, look, you can say results, condition perceptions, some people call it
10:20scoreboard journalism and all that sort of thing.
10:21But, I mean, this is tournament football, it does come down to results.
10:25And Tuchel's gamble, or his move, what he did with the team, it paid off.
10:31And it didn't just be like, because England, right, they were camped in their own box.
10:34I didn't think they were hanging on in terms of chances.
10:36It was nothing like the end of the first half.
10:38There was that one moment of the ball just went wide of the post.
10:41Because I couldn't see England conceding.
10:43Yeah, well, Mexico's main threat, right, was putting balls into the box for Jimenez.
10:48And then by that point, England had three really massive centre-backs on the pitch, with
10:51a fourth playing as a right-back in concert.
10:54So they had a lot of heights.
10:56And Byrne was superb.
10:57I think there was one passenger player, I remember, where someone, maybe Jimenez, maybe not,
11:01tries an overhead kick in the box.
11:02And Byrne headed it before the overhead kick.
11:04And in the header went, like, 40 yards or something.
11:06I mean, you know, his presence at that point was superb.
11:08But just on Tuchel, I wrote my preview for the match on Tuchel.
11:12And I spent a lot of the game today keeping an eye on Tuchel.
11:16And in the first half, in that first 30 minutes, which weren't going so smoothly,
11:19Nico O'Reilly and Gordon just weren't connecting.
11:21And Tuchel was going berserk on the sideline.
11:23And I think he used his hydration break really well to kind of, you know, tell his players
11:27to calm down, you know, back yourselves, get your communication channels right.
11:31And then in the second half, he's spoken a lot about Anthony Barry's idea to put Deadly
11:35and Rice at right back against Congo.
11:37And I think the same for Tactical Switch here.
11:39His second half Tactical Switches have been spot on.
11:42And it's a time in a tournament where you can see a world-class coach in action helping
11:48his players out and making the difference.
11:50It was a game changer because Mexico suddenly didn't have any space.
11:54And they put balls into the box and England dealt with them largely okay.
11:58So, I mean, it's something that England's, well, it's the criticism of Gareth Southgate
12:02that they didn't have that, like, that astuteness tactically.
12:05And Tuchel and his assistant Barry clearly do have that.
12:09We actually haven't talked about the pregame a little bit, Miguel, with the thunder and the
12:14lightning and the extra hour delay.
12:17Kind of when it was announced in the stadium, it just, like, ramped the fans up even more.
12:21A Mexican song was played and it was cheered.
12:23And the English song, Don't Look Back on Angle, was played and it was jeered.
12:26It was quite comical.
12:28But also, I mean, just added to an electric atmosphere.
12:31I mean, have you kind of experienced anything like that before?
12:34No, I'd say, one thing I'd make a point to mention, a very good-natured atmosphere.
12:38Despite the kind of pantomime boos and that sort of thing.
12:40Like, I was struck at, I mean, maybe people will think this should be taken to standard.
12:43Well, we know it's not.
12:44They didn't boo the anthem.
12:45And after the game, there was such a graciousness.
12:48I saw fans swapping shirts.
12:50It was great respect afterwards.
12:52And, yeah, as you say, like, I mean, first of all, I suppose the game was worth staying up for,
12:56given everything we saw.
13:00But equally, because of that rain, because, like, it was about five hours.
13:03And so, remember, we were trying to get to the stadium.
13:05So, there's a bit of a gap between the media centre and the actual stadium.
13:09And we got drenched.
13:10We were lucky you had that small umbrella.
13:13But, like, it was really, it was really hammered out.
13:16And, like, that could have really dampened the atmosphere.
13:18But it didn't.
13:19They stayed singing.
13:20It almost kind of added to it in some ways.
13:22And the two Mexican goals, the noise for them was unlike anything I've ever heard, really.
13:28Yeah.
13:29Yeah, it was ridiculous.
13:30I actually did a lap of the whole outer perimeter of the Azteca, like, four hours before the game.
13:35And it was such a good atmosphere.
13:36There was a bit of, like, banter flying around between English and Mexican fans.
13:39But it was all good natured.
13:41I actually saw some English fans playing on a Mexican hopscotch with some Mexican kids, which was actually, like, really,
13:48like, adorable to see.
13:50Like, very wholesome.
13:51And even afterwards, when we were walking back to the media shuttle bus afterwards, Miguel, we saw, like, England and
13:56Mexican fans in the same bar.
13:58England fans singing.
13:59But it was, I mean, I might be wrong.
14:02We might have been in a different part of the city.
14:04But there doesn't seem to be any sort of bad temper or violence.
14:09And it was a really good natured match.
14:11I mean, we'll take the quickest of breaks and then talk about some of the other factors for England going
14:15forward.
14:18Welcome back to Copper Independent.
14:19Miguel, I want to talk about Qantas Red Card, but specifically the ramifications we might now have for Qantas Red
14:25Card.
14:25And specifically, why Keir Starmer should be on the phone to Gianni Infantino today to get his suspension overturned.
14:32I mean, just for context, for those who don't know, earlier on Sunday, we received the news that USA striker
14:37Foller and Balogun.
14:38And one game ban has been suspended.
14:40So the ban has been suspended and he's available to play against Belgium in the last 16 on Monday.
14:46And this, despite there being no formal appeal process for the US to follow, something I wrote about after the
14:51Bosnia game when Balogun got the red card.
14:53And no matter whether you think it's a red card or not, I think the US and the coach, Mauricio
14:57Pochettino, accepted he wouldn't be with Balogun.
14:59And there's been a lot of reports on Sunday that White House officials and even Donald Trump himself has contacted
15:06FIFA and Infantino about the red card to try and get the ban overturned.
15:10FIFA have pointed towards Article 27 of their disciplinary code to explain why it's happened and essentially gives them the
15:17power to dish out a probationary sanction.
15:19Something we saw with Cristiano Ronaldo from the qualifiers.
15:23Miguel, it's the latest in the long line of questionable FIFA actions at this World Cup.
15:28What do you make of this one?
15:30That is also, as you say, given the way this World Cup has gone, how successful it's been for them.
15:36This basically just, A, it kind of brings back all the politics we were discussing, kind of throws all that
15:42back.
15:42When the football had been great for Infantino and FIFA in ensuring that all these issues were obscured.
15:49And now, it's another of that basic, I suppose, as to, at this point, questions of legitimacy for FIFA because
15:57of the nature.
15:57Because it's genuinely unprecedented in tournament in this way.
16:01And obviously, we've seen the response from the Belgian Federation.
16:04They're exploring all options.
16:06They declare themselves astonished.
16:07I was speaking to a lot of legal people during the day.
16:09You wrote a piece on it.
16:10But even if they think the Balogun red card wasn't a red card, which I agree with.
16:14I don't think it was a red card.
16:15But, like, you've still got to go through the proper processes, or at least what we would consider the proper
16:19processes.
16:19I need to say, FIFA have this discretionary rule.
16:22It's like they've got all these regulations in place that are typical sporting regulations that are supposed to safeguard these
16:28sort of processes.
16:29And on that, like, people have pointed out to me that in terms of the exact articles involved, they shouldn't
16:34apply to on-field decisions.
16:36But there's this discretionary clause.
16:38Because ultimately, it's as if with that, no matter what their decisions, it basically gives FIFA the opportunity to have
16:44as well.
16:45Speaking to FIFA people throughout the day, they kept pointing, this is an independent panel.
16:49So even if there was political pressure, it's an independent panel that looks at this.
16:53But then you get to the question of, well, would there have been an independent panel without this kind of
16:58political pressure?
16:59Without all this noise around, without all this swirl?
17:02Well, it's an absolutely remarkable situation.
17:04And, yeah, like, Tuchel touched on after the game where he basically, well, where does this stop?
17:07Do we get to challenge the yellow card now?
17:10And that's what FIFA have opened themselves up to.
17:12And so, like, there could be some kind of quite, like, let's see how things go.
17:16But, I mean, we could see a lot more focus on the court of arbitration, just more.
17:20Yeah, I think there is a case they could go that high.
17:23Because if Balogun scores the winner for the USA against Belgium, I mean, the Belgians would be well within the
17:29right to be like, well, he shouldn't even be on the pitch.
17:32I mean, this has also been decided 32 hours before the kickoff in Seattle.
17:38So, Belgium were preparing for a completely different forward line.
17:40I mean, and also, Balogun is so key to them.
17:43I mean, is this happening if it's, you know, an American squad player who's got sent off?
17:48Like, I don't think so.
17:49It's not how football and the World Cup should be run.
17:53And also, from a sporting point of view, I wrote this at the end of my piece, I think it
17:57puts the US team in a really tricky, they might not care.
18:01They'll be playing at their home World Cup.
18:02But it puts them in a bit of a bad light when they've actually been in a really good light.
18:06I mean, Trump has stayed away from the World Cup, which I think has been good for the team.
18:11And they've received a lot of plaudits for their style of play, for their attacking nature, for their goals, for
18:17their stars.
18:18They've come to the fore.
18:20And now it's just going to be like almost an asterisk if they get through to the quarterfinals.
18:24And they're going to be one of the most unpopular teams in the knockouts if they get through.
18:28Because it's inescapable that something like that shouldn't happen.
18:31But obviously, FIFA opened up this kind of worms by allowing Ronaldo to play.
18:35But simple question, Miguel.
18:37Do you think England could get Qantas' red card over time because of this?
18:40I mean, I'm sure countless people have made the joke now about Keir Starmer slash Andy Burnham making the call
18:47now or even King Charles.
18:49It doesn't feel like it'll get to that.
18:51But I mean, this is the thing.
18:52We're suddenly in a new world for this tournament.
18:54Because obviously, the anticipation had been, because of the regulations, that appeals weren't possible.
18:59And now we have a situation.
19:00And look, I mean, there's been all sorts of kind of blurred line language used in Ireland and things like
19:07that.
19:07Oh, it's not actually the red card that's overturned.
19:09It's the suspension that's suspended.
19:11And then kind of like, you know, appeals to kind of the various, the rules, the discretion.
19:17But there is something bigger here.
19:19Because all of the stuff we talk about with him, you know, the political elements, the, you know, his relationship
19:24with Trump, for one, you know, work up in Saudi Arabia, the way kind of certain decisions are taken.
19:30These are all very important issues.
19:31But occasionally, they can be, it can be difficult for that to kind of really permeate through or really kind
19:38of break through as kind of actual issues to the wider football fan base.
19:43And obviously, as we say, one of the things about World Cup is the football perseveres.
19:48It kind of obscures all that.
19:49It ultimately pushes all those sort of things to the background.
19:52But this is one where it feels like it kind of changes the dial and all that.
19:57Because suddenly, all of these related issues we're talking about, they suddenly start to, at least, look, we can't definitively
20:04say this is true.
20:05But suddenly, it feels like all of these are actually, or there's a connection between that and influencing what happens
20:11on the pitch.
20:12And that's where things shift.
20:15And fans have to look at all this in a different way.
20:17Because they can see that, you know, decisions taken at the top are affecting how the game is played, the
20:23results, all of this.
20:24And, like, it's tied into something bigger with this now, where it looks like there's already been tension between UEFA
20:30and FIFA.
20:31There has already been kind of European nations aggravated by, you know, the way this World Cup has been run
20:36and all this sort of thing.
20:37Well, now this looks like it's going to cause a massive split between the European nations and FIFA.
20:42And the politics of this are fascinating.
20:45Yeah, the final two things I want to say on it is, well, lack of transparency and hypocrisy.
20:51Lack of transparency because there's no way we can question Infantino or the head of referees, Piero Luigi Colina, about
20:59it, which we should be able to.
21:01There was no specific element to the tackle from Balogun as to why it got this.
21:06This one-game ban has been suspended.
21:08I mean, it has to be a technical thing.
21:11I think there's a bit of talk online about the people who appeal to FIFA and Infantino saying about the
21:18slow-motion replays.
21:19I think that's a fair thing to say.
21:20And I'm not saying, if there was a proper appeals process and the US went down that line,
21:25and I should say the United States men's national team, not the US administration,
21:31if they went down that line, then I think that's fair enough if they overturned it.
21:35Not the day before a game, it should be said.
21:37And then the second thing is hypocrisy because FIFA preach about the greater good
21:43and trying to eliminate corruption in their member associations from low-income backgrounds.
21:48They even have an actual programme titled about good governance.
21:52So for them to allow this sort of thing to happen and not actually be transparent about it
21:57and explain the reasoning, it's kind of a bit two-faced.
22:00And I think fans deserve better.
22:02Particularly, Miguel, like you said, it's not about off-pitch matters and World Cup hosting rights.
22:06It's about actual on-field matters now.
22:08I think that's where the power has shifted.
22:10I mean, let's move on slightly because, you know, we've talked a lot about FIFA and politics on this podcast
22:14and move it on a little bit with England and their next test, which was to do with the other
22:18last 16 game today,
22:19which is Brazil-Norway.
22:20Brazil are out of the World Cup.
22:22Erling Haaland's brilliant double has sent them home.
22:25I mean, it feels almost a shame we won't have England-Brazil as an occasion in Miami.
22:29But nevertheless, Norway are a brilliant team with a brilliant striker.
22:33And they'll certainly be a massive test.
22:35What were your very initial thoughts on that game?
22:37I think England, look, we're speaking now just after the Mexico game.
22:41I think England will do enough, but this will be another battle.
22:45And this ties into something bigger and another kind of, maybe this is a good way to bring this kind
22:48of full circle.
22:50As we say, England have a lot of concerns.
22:52The right-sided team isn't correct.
22:55They allow games to go out of control.
22:57They have issues to solve.
22:59And does this perpetual sense that all of this will eventually get punished by one of the elite sides?
23:05To which I keep thinking, well, who are those elite sides?
23:10And this isn't to say, like, this usual thing, kind of like, oh, England have been given a forgiving draw
23:14around like that.
23:15It's basically just, I mean, as we've said this countless times, the field is a lot flatter than usual.
23:20There's maybe two outstanding sides there on the other side of the draw.
23:25And then there's a lot of really good teams.
23:28And, like, even, like, so, you know, after Brazil have gone, although I don't think Brazil were ever up there,
23:33obviously,
23:34the strongest team on the England side of the draw will be considered Argentina.
23:38But look what they went through against Cabo Verde, an inferior side to Mexico, who didn't have all the kind
23:42of,
23:43the advantages of that game, like being at home, altitude and all that.
23:46And, like, they put Argentina through the ringer in a worse way.
23:49So there are a lot of flawed teams here.
23:51And, like, yes, England have flaws themselves, but I also feel like they've got enough qualities to overcome that.
23:57And, like, I can suddenly envisage a final place.
24:02This isn't to overlook Norway.
24:03I think this is going to be a real challenge.
24:04But I suppose feeding in with all this, I mean, as you say, like, because it's Brazil,
24:09you feel like the game isn't, and this isn't disrespect to Norway,
24:12especially when you've got a player like Hallam there,
24:14but because it's Brazil and everything that conjures, you feel like the game is lesser.
24:18And also, maybe from that as well, there's a perception that it won't be as challenging.
24:23But, look, Norway, on the whole, mightn't have as many good players as Brazil.
24:29The quality of their squad might be lower.
24:31But I feel like they're obviously a better team, more cohesive unit.
24:34I mean, Brazil, like...
24:36Did you like Neymar's penalty and then kind of almost laughing in the face of the Norwegian keeper,
24:41even though he needed to get the ball to actually score an equaliser?
24:44I mean, just baffling.
24:46That said so much about where they are, I suppose.
24:49And even before that, like, there were two moments when it was...
24:54So Neymar came on and nil all.
24:56But then there was two moments when it was 1-0.
24:58One was when Casemiro had that kind of whatever it was across goal.
25:01Then another when Neymar actually did well initially.
25:05Opens the space in the box.
25:06And then rather than shoot or square it, he tries to beat another man in almost vintage Neymar style.
25:11And the chance goes.
25:12With Brazil now, there's much bigger pieces he can do or much bigger discussions he can have of where they
25:17are.
25:17This is their worst ever run of the World Cup.
25:19And to...
25:20Like, they hadn't gone out with this stage of the competition since, I think, it was 1990.
25:24Last 16.
25:26It's been quarterfinal, quarterfinal, last 16.
25:30It's now, also by going out at this point, it's the longest or will be the longest they've gone without
25:36winning the World Cup since they won it the first time in 1958.
25:38Because it's going to be at least 28 years once it gets to 2030.
25:44And they've got so many issues.
25:46And hence, you'd think Norway would probably give England a bigger challenge, especially when they've got Haaland.
25:52I actually agree with Miguel.
25:54I said before today's game at the Azteca that if England can get through this, I think the momentum and
26:00confidence they would have built will have been enough to beat their Brazil teams.
26:03I don't think their Brazil teams are that good.
26:05But the fact it's Norway and the fact it's Haaland, I mean, I spoke to John Stones a little bit
26:10about it afterwards, about the fact he's facing his teammate, obviously facing Mark Gahey as well.
26:14So, there's so many dynamics to it.
26:16Obviously, Martin Odegaard and Declan Rice in midfield as well.
26:19So, I mean, that's conversations to be had.
26:21But I think it will actually be a really difficult game.
26:24Norway were superb in qualifying.
26:25They've been really impressive in this tournament as well.
26:28Really, really impressive.
26:29The only game they've lost to is against France.
26:32And that was when they rested their whole team.
26:33So, it should be a cracker.
26:36And I'm not as certain as that sure that England will get through that as I would have been if
26:41it was Brazil.
26:41But, you know, it would then be England against Argentina, I think, in Atlanta, right?
26:48So, that would be a hell of a thing.
26:50If Argentina get there, they've got Egypt and then they might have to face Colombia, which feels really difficult.
26:54It just feels like a really open tournament suddenly, does it not?
26:58Yeah, totally, totally.
26:58And even, we're speaking like just before, or this had come out a few hours before Spain played Portugal.
27:03And it was excellent as I think Spain had been.
27:06I think they could well slip up in that game.
27:08But, yeah, absolutely.
27:10It's open.
27:10It's a more open World Cup than we've seen in some time, I'd say.
27:13Yeah, and the final thing I should say is that in England celebrations, which were as if they'd kind of
27:18got to a final, it was really like, you know, euphoric scenes at the Azteca.
27:23Jordan Henderson did have a nasty injury.
27:25It was a bad day for Jordan Henderson.
27:26He got a yellow card as an unused substitute for remonstrating with the referee.
27:30And then he kind of fell over the advertising hoarding and the videos online are not good.
27:35I think he's hurt his arm or his wrist.
27:37And he's not gone back with the team this evening to Kansas City.
27:40He's stayed in Mexico to go to hospital.
27:42I mean, just a word on that.
27:43Actually, Henderson was alongside Tuchel in the pre-match press conference and spoke brilliantly.
27:47He's such a key figure for that team.
27:49Do you think it looked like a really nasty one as well?
27:52Do you think it's something that could put a little bit of a damper on tonight?
27:56Well, I feel like this World Cup is over, obviously, given the injury and given the talk since.
28:02And obviously, Henderson is crucial to the team chemistry, team spirit, kind of the psychology.
28:09So, I mean, the obvious question now is whether he'd stay.
28:13And look, that could have some ramifications.
28:15But I do think, generally, given everything we're talking about in this podcast,
28:20England do have an emotional momentum now.
28:23And they've got a growing belief.
28:25And on the whole, we're...
28:29I don't want to say they're in good shape because the team's under so many issues.
28:32But psychologically, they're in good shape.
28:34Yeah, so many issues and we've lost another right back unless Keir Starmer can work his magic.
28:38Okay, Miguel, we'll wrap it up there.
28:40Thanks a lot for joining me.
28:41Thanks to producer Jay McDonald.
28:42And we hope to see you back later this week ahead of the quarterfinals.
28:46We'll do a preview episode for them and for the England game against Norway.
28:49Copper Independent is part of the Independent Podcast Network.
28:51So do take a look online for more podcasts there.
28:54And we'll see you next time.
28:55Thanks, Miguel.
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