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Brexit tornou a Europa mais forte ou mais fraca? Eurodeputados frente a frente no The Ring
O que aprendeu a Europa com o Brexit sobre soberania, migrações, competitividade, democracia e desinformação? Eurodeputados debatem o futuro das relações UE‑Reino Unido no programa The Ring.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/06/26/brexit-tornou-a-europa-mais-forte-ou-mais-fraca-eurodeputados-frente-a-frente-no-the-ring
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O que aprendeu a Europa com o Brexit sobre soberania, migrações, competitividade, democracia e desinformação? Eurodeputados debatem o futuro das relações UE‑Reino Unido no programa The Ring.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2026/06/26/brexit-tornou-a-europa-mais-forte-ou-mais-fraca-eurodeputados-frente-a-frente-no-the-ring
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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00:08Olá, e bem-vindo a The Ring, Euronise's weekly debate show,
00:13broadcasting from the European Parliament here in Brussels.
00:16I'm Maeve MacMathen, e como você sabe, aqui no The Ring,
00:19members of the European Parliament go face-to-face
00:22on some of the most tricky issues of our time.
00:25This week, as we mark 10 years since the UK voted to leave the European Union,
00:30we're asking if the bloc has changed for the better or worse,
00:34and if the UK could ever, or should, rejoin.
00:37To set the scene, here's our Louise Albertus.
00:42A decade has passed since the UK made the momentous decision to leave the European Union.
00:48We'll take the trouble, I'll take the trouble.
00:53After 47 years of membership, the Brexit vote sent shockwaves through Europe
00:58and reshaped Britain as we know it.
01:01Ten years on, seven prime ministers have come and gone,
01:05and this week another one met the same fate.
01:08In an emotional speech at number 10,
01:11Keir Starmer stepped down after days of mounting pressure.
01:15What has Brexit taught Europe about sovereignty,
01:18migration, economic competitiveness,
01:20democratic accountability and disinformation?
01:24Has it strengthened the case for European integration?
01:27And with memories of the referendum still shaping the political debate,
01:31could Britain ever consider rejoining the bloc?
01:33Or is that possibility still too politically divisive?
01:40The questions we have for our contenders, let's meet them.
01:45Barry Andrews, an Irish MEP from the Liberal Renew Europe Group.
01:49He's the chair of the Committee on Development,
01:52vice chair of the Delegation for Relations with Palestine
01:54and a member of the delegation to the EU-UK Parliamentary Partnership Assembly.
01:59On the 10th anniversary of the Brexit vote, he says,
02:02Brexit was and is a con job.
02:05The UK has not been as invisible and irrelevant on the European stage as it is now,
02:10since, in my view, before the Battle of Agincourt of 1415.
02:16Sandor Smit, a Dutch MEP from the European Conservatives and Reformists Group.
02:21He serves in the Committee on Constitutional Affairs
02:24and has also been vice chair of the Committee on Fisheries
02:27earlier in the current parliamentary term.
02:29We still deeply regret Brexit and miss the UK's crucial voice
02:33for fiscal and financial discipline in the European Council, he says.
02:38Our future lies in a stronger partnership.
02:40Let the UK and EU countries move beyond the past
02:44and work together as natural, sovereign allies.
02:50So, Barry Andrews and Sander Schmidt, welcome to The Ring.
02:53Thanks for joining us.
02:54So, here we are, 10 years on.
02:57Has Brexit helped or hindered the European Union, Sander?
02:59I think it has really hindered the European Union in achieving a union
03:03which also takes into account several national sensitivities,
03:07also protects the national veto.
03:09I think the United Kingdom would have been a very valuable ally
03:14for my own member state, but also for other member states in Council
03:17and for my group in particular.
03:19Of course, the ECR Group was founded by the British Conservative Party
03:22and we still sorely miss them, I think.
03:25You would agree, I'm sure, Barry Andrews, with that.
03:27The EU is in a weaker place now.
03:29Well, I think definitely the UK is in a weaker place.
03:32I think the European Union has a capacity to evolve
03:34and I think there has been very significant developments
03:37in the European Union in the last 10 years and in the world.
03:41And the basic lesson is that we live in a much more contested world
03:45and we're much better together as an EU 27.
03:49So, I think that we are beginning to learn that lesson,
03:51but for the UK it has been a total disaster.
03:53What other lessons has Brussels and the EU learnt in the past 10 years?
03:57I think we should learn from Brexit, first and foremost,
04:02that we need to respect national sovereignty,
04:05maybe also have tailored membership,
04:08not doing away with the Copenhagen criteria,
04:11but certain opt-outs and not have a one-size-fits-all approach.
04:15And I think not controlling migration,
04:19not taking into account these national specificities
04:22has really also caused Brexit.
04:24So, I think we need to self-reflect a bit.
04:27I think if you did self-reflect,
04:28you would recognise that actually Britain had a very tailor-made membership
04:33of the European Union for an awful long time,
04:35including being outside Schengen, including being outside the euro,
04:38and having a very, very differentiated form of membership.
04:43And this still wasn't enough on this occasion.
04:45And what has happened since then in the UK
04:48is that there has been a massive peak in migration.
04:51The UK economy has gone down very, very substantially.
04:54As we've just heard in the introduction,
04:56they've had seven prime ministers.
04:57So, this is a state of governance which is absolutely disastrous.
05:00Oh, I absolutely agree.
05:01I just meant that if we as a European Union
05:04want to have the United Kingdom work together with us
05:07or eventually rejoin,
05:09I sense that you would be open to that,
05:11but you can comment on that later,
05:12we need to take into account these specificities.
05:16But now we see the European Commission
05:18and also European leaders evolving
05:20towards a more centralised approach of the Union
05:22with less tailor-made, less opt-outs,
05:25less possibilities to take these national issues.
05:27And we'll come back to that shortly,
05:28but I want to go back to the UK politics
05:30because, of course, seven prime ministers
05:32have come and gone since the Brexit vote.
05:34Is this because of Brexit,
05:35this political chaos we're seeing in the UK?
05:37Well, I mean, there's nobody looking
05:39to leave the European Union anymore.
05:41And there is a waiting room for membership
05:43that is bursting at the seams.
05:46So, the one big takeaway is that,
05:49I think, in the contested geopolitical world
05:51that we live in now,
05:52we're much better together.
05:53Mark Carney articulated that very well
05:56for middle-sized countries,
05:57for Europe, for Canada.
05:59So, I think Britain has learned that lesson
06:01in a very difficult way.
06:03Because we remember 10 years ago,
06:04when the vote happened,
06:05Nigel Farage said the European Union was dead
06:07and, quote, finished.
06:09We saw Marine Le Pen, Gerd Filders,
06:11calling for their countries to have a referendum.
06:13That's off the table now.
06:14It's all off the table.
06:15And even Mr. Willis never mentions Brexit or Brexit anymore.
06:21Never mentioned it.
06:21So, I mean, you know, it's for slow learners.
06:25We now have had a laboratory example
06:28of what happens when you leave the European Union,
06:30when you try to take back control,
06:32when you try to do things by yourself.
06:33It is clear that this has deepened
06:36the European Union's roots.
06:37It has enhanced the European Union's reputation.
06:40And that's why almost all of our neighbourhood countries
06:43are thinking about joining,
06:44including Iceland, including Norway,
06:47including all the Western Balkans
06:48and Eastern Europe.
06:50And what about the situation in the UK?
06:52The EU and the UK were just getting back on track
06:55with those relations.
06:56An EU summit was supposed to be taking place
06:58at the end of July.
06:59It's now off the table.
07:00So what will the latest chaos mean
07:02for this relationship?
07:03Two things I would say to the Commission.
07:05First of all, it's right to delay the summit.
07:08Absolutely.
07:09I think the first point is
07:11that you have to anonymise relations with the UK.
07:13You can't, it can't depend on the personality
07:16of the Prime Minister,
07:17particularly where you have Farage
07:19quite high in the opinion polls.
07:21So I think the European Commission
07:23has to recognise this.
07:24Plus, it cannot continue to treat the UK
07:26as an ordinary third country
07:28because the UK is so aligned
07:30with our key interests
07:32as Europe.
07:32And I think a lot of UK politicians recognise this.
07:35The Commission has to recognise that too.
07:37And during the very lengthy negotiation period,
07:39the divorce period, if you like,
07:41was the EU fair
07:42to the United Kingdom, you think?
07:44I think in many aspects
07:46we were very fair.
07:47If I look at fisheries,
07:48we really took a huge portion
07:53out of our fishery rights, etc.
07:54So I think the European Union has been right.
07:57But tough.
07:58I think maybe in some aspects too tough.
08:00So that's also my suggestion.
08:02Let's work together closer.
08:04Let's move past the past bickering
08:07and find new solutions.
08:09Because I think that will also pave the way
08:11for new candidate member states
08:14like Iceland and Norway.
08:15And if we don't improve the relationship
08:18with the United Kingdom in the future,
08:20I think if we have a referendum in Iceland
08:22upcoming, it shows signs of that development.
08:25we will eventually end up also
08:27losing these candidate member states
08:28who do fulfil the Copenhagen criteria.
08:32But I just want to bring in an incident
08:34that took place in the European Parliament chamber
08:35just last week in Strasbourg.
08:37When MEPs, when you were voting on measures
08:39to increase the deportation
08:40of undocumented migrants.
08:42Take a look.
08:47On the agenda, the report by
08:51Mrs. Brickmont
08:52on the EU-Pakistan agreement
08:53modification of concessions
08:56on tariff rate quotes.
08:59Vote on consent.
09:01My roll call vote.
09:02The vote is open.
09:12We move to the...
09:18It's adopted.
09:21So a flavour there
09:22of what's going on
09:23inside the very European Parliament chamber.
09:25Sander Schmid,
09:26what were you chanting?
09:27I was not chanting.
09:28Not...
09:29I don't think chanting
09:30belongs in a parliament.
09:31That way I did applaud
09:32the outcome of the result
09:34of the vote.
09:35And were you sitting
09:35beside the chanters?
09:36Yes, yes.
09:37They were to the left of me,
09:38so...
09:40in the right-wing groups.
09:43This is a good glimpse
09:44of the kind of divisiveness
09:47that we can see right now
09:48in politics,
09:49right here and, of course,
09:49across the pond.
09:50Yeah, look,
09:51it was a disgrace.
09:52It was an appalling low point
09:54in my experience
09:56in the European Parliament.
09:57I voted against the measure.
09:58I have a very clear conscience
10:00about that.
10:01And what I was very disappointed about
10:03was that some members
10:04of your party online
10:06described one of my...
10:07one of our colleagues
10:08who was originally from Iraq
10:10that she should go home.
10:11Now, that should be withdrawn.
10:13That is the subject
10:14of a complaint.
10:15And I would put it to you
10:15that you should recognize
10:17that that was a mistake.
10:19Whatever about not chanting
10:20in the parliament,
10:21but encouraging one of our colleagues
10:23who wasn't born
10:24in the European Union
10:25to go home,
10:26surely that's an unacceptable
10:28political approach.
10:29I wasn't there at the incident
10:31that I can't vouch for how it was
10:34formulated by my colleague
10:35and how it was intended.
10:37So I think...
10:38But what we're seeing here...
10:39I think we look at the outcome
10:40of the result
10:41everyone who is an EU citizen
10:43who holds the right to be here
10:45can remain in the European Union.
10:47This is about the return
10:47of illegal migrants,
10:49illegal aliens
10:50who have penetrated
10:51the European Union
10:52without a right to asylum
10:54and to remain here
10:55to return hubs
10:57under the full compliance
10:59with EU
11:00and international fundamental
11:01human rights.
11:02It's just interesting
11:03because Brexit, of course,
11:04was driven largely
11:04by migrating concerns
11:06and we're seeing that
11:06right now in the EU.
11:07the bloc taking much tougher
11:09policies when it comes
11:10to migration.
11:11Has Europe moved closer
11:12to the position
11:13that won that Brexit referendum?
11:14Barry Andrews?
11:15Yeah, my view is
11:16you can't beat the far right
11:17by becoming far right.
11:18That way they win
11:19and you lose.
11:20So I think it is
11:22a major mistake here.
11:24I think, you know,
11:25Sanders says
11:26there is human rights
11:29conditionality
11:29in relation to these return hubs.
11:31But let's not forget
11:32there are human rights clauses
11:33in the EU-Israel Association Agreement
11:36which have been willfully ignored
11:38by the Commission
11:38for three years
11:39in spite of the ongoing war crimes,
11:42in spite of the ongoing statements
11:43made by certain Israeli ministers
11:46in relation to European citizens,
11:49in relation to Palestinians
11:50and the West Bank.
11:50So I take no comfort
11:52from the presence
11:53in this agreement
11:54of human rights conditions
11:55in relation to return hubs.
11:56Quick reaction to that?
11:57I do.
11:58I think that we uphold
11:59the rule of law
12:00as European Union
12:01and we will also do this
12:03in the return hub
12:03in safe third countries.
12:06And I think a lot
12:07of the Irish voters
12:07will also be disappointed
12:09that you voted
12:09against the result
12:10which is the last building block
12:12of the EU migration
12:13and asylum pact.
12:14Yeah.
12:14Some Irish voters will be...
12:16Which you supported
12:17in the last term.
12:18Some Irish voters will be disappointed
12:20that I voted against it.
12:21That is correct.
12:22But that's the essence of populism.
12:24That you're determined
12:25by, you know,
12:26whatever current...
12:27Now, what I try to explain
12:28to our citizens
12:29is that yes,
12:30we have a new migration
12:31and asylum pact.
12:32It only came into force
12:33two weeks ago.
12:34We also have
12:35migration conditionality
12:37in a lot of our
12:38external relations.
12:39We also have memorandums
12:40of understanding and returns.
12:41And my argument is
12:42that we should let
12:43all of this work
12:44before we go down
12:45what was a taboo subject
12:47just a few years ago
12:48about sending families
12:50and children
12:51to places
12:52they've never had
12:52any connection with
12:53to satisfy
12:55this demand
12:57in circumstances
12:58where asylum applications
12:59are going down
13:00in the European Union
13:01where deportations
13:02are actually going up.
13:04This is the wrong time
13:04to do this.
13:05And we have done
13:05extensive reporting
13:06on that topic
13:07here on Euronews
13:08and we've also done
13:09previous editions
13:10of The Ring
13:10so catch up with them.
13:11But now it is time
13:12to move on
13:13to our next round.
13:18Now you've already
13:18got a glimpse
13:19of what happens
13:19inside the European
13:21Parliament Chamber
13:21but now I'm going
13:22to give you another one
13:23because there MEPs
13:24also ask each other
13:25direct questions
13:26and follow-up.
13:27So here on The Ring
13:28you'll also have
13:29that opportunity.
13:30So Sander Schmidt
13:31please address
13:31your very first question
13:32to Barry Andrews.
13:33Barry, the United Kingdom
13:35was our strongest ally
13:36for fiscal discipline
13:37resisting EU debt schemes
13:39and protecting
13:40national sovereignty
13:41also for Ireland.
13:42Do you still miss
13:43the British Prime Minister
13:44in the European Council
13:45to help us protect
13:47national vetoes
13:48and would you actually
13:49welcome the EU
13:49back into the European Union?
13:52A couple of questions
13:53there Sander.
13:53So first of all
13:56yes of course
13:56we'd welcome the UK
13:57back into the European Union.
13:59I think of all EU member states
14:01Ireland was most aligned
14:02with the UK actually
14:03on a whole range of issues
14:04particularly around trade
14:06the provision of financial services
14:07but most importantly
14:08peace on the island of Ireland
14:10and the Ireland and the UK
14:12pulled very hard
14:13in the same direction on that
14:14and the European Union
14:15acted as an honest broker
14:16and really helped it.
14:17So for me
14:18there's absolutely no question
14:19about that.
14:20In terms of veto power
14:21and the protection
14:22of veto power
14:23I think that has held
14:24the European Union back
14:25whereas other major global actors
14:27are able to act quickly
14:28we take an inordinate
14:30amount of time
14:30and we're being held hostage
14:32by single individuals
14:34in the European Council.
14:35And now your question.
14:36So my question is
14:38how the ECR
14:40are making arrangements
14:43with far-right MEPs
14:46in the European Parliament
14:47some of whom
14:48are pro-Putin.
14:49How do you explain that
14:50to your voters
14:51in the Netherlands
14:52that you are making
14:53these alliances
14:54with pro-Russian parties
14:55and pro-Russian actors
14:57in the European Parliament?
14:58I think it's not about
14:59making alliances
15:00with pro-Russian parties.
15:01We have a broad
15:02centre-right majority now
15:04new majorities
15:04in the European Parliament
15:05which vote along with us
15:07as an ECR
15:08where we firmly support Ukraine
15:09so there's no doubt about that
15:11and if they vote along us
15:13in supporting for instance
15:16the return regulation
15:17proposed by EPP Commissioner
15:19and by the Commission
15:20of Ms. von der Leyen
15:21not by far-right populists
15:23but by the European Commission
15:24we safeguarded
15:25we defended the proposal
15:27of Commissioner Brunner there
15:28then there's no case
15:30of us collaborating
15:31with any such parties
15:33but I do not uphold
15:34a firewall
15:36or a cordon sanitaire
15:37if people want
15:38to support my proposals
15:40that would be
15:40political suicide
15:41and I'm sure
15:43that certain
15:43of your own proposals
15:44and amendments
15:45have been voted
15:46in favour of
15:46also by far-right parties
15:48in committing committee votes
15:50there's a difference
15:51between passive support
15:53and actively collaborating
15:55with these parties
15:56on amendments
15:57and issues like that
15:58so is your point
15:59is that you don't
16:00actively collaborate
16:01with the far-right
16:01the pro-people
16:02we've worked with
16:04all democratically elected
16:05representatives
16:06in this house
16:07and if they want
16:08to support us
16:09on issues
16:09such as return regulation
16:11combating illegal
16:12illegal migration
16:13then I fully support
16:15such cooperation
16:16and there's no
16:18threat there
16:18or danger
16:19of legitimising
16:20their positions
16:21in certain other issues
16:23there we have
16:23a very strong stance
16:24and there we are also
16:25really aligned
16:26I think
16:27in many issues
16:27ok
16:28well we've heard
16:29the views now
16:29from the MEPs
16:30and you've had
16:31the opportunity
16:31to address your questions
16:32now it's time
16:33to hear from
16:34a new voice
16:38I'd like to bring
16:39in the voice
16:39of Richard Corbett
16:41former British Labour MEP
16:43who became one
16:44of the leading
16:44political and academic
16:45voices in the debates
16:46over EU membership
16:47and reforming
16:48the bloc
16:49he was actually
16:49in Brussels this month
16:50to mark the 10 year
16:51anniversary of Brexit
16:53and meet a group
16:54of British nationals
16:54who walked
16:55the whole way
16:56from London
16:56to the European capital
16:58take a look
16:59Alexander Stodd
17:00President of Finland
17:01came all the way
17:01to London
17:02Chatham House lecture
17:03to say we want you back
17:05Donald Tusk
17:06Poland says
17:07we dream of Britain
17:07coming back
17:08Pedro Sanchez
17:09Spain says
17:10Brexit was a mistake
17:11you should come back in
17:12they do want us back
17:13why?
17:15look at the geopolitics
17:17look at the geopolitics
17:18Richard Corbett
17:19making the point there
17:20making the pitch
17:21for coming back
17:21into the EU
17:22now that was one
17:23of your questions
17:23actually for Barry
17:24Andrews earlier
17:25would you like to
17:26welcome them back
17:26and is it necessity
17:27now due to the
17:28geopolitical world
17:28we're living in?
17:29I think I would
17:30really welcome them
17:31back because we
17:32really miss them
17:33still also in the
17:33European Parliament
17:34the European
17:35of the British
17:36Conservative Party
17:37is still sorely missed
17:38I think in my group
17:39as well
17:40but I think it will be
17:41an evolution
17:42in the coming years
17:43we have other parties
17:44as Barry said
17:45in the UK
17:46now contending
17:47and I think we have to
17:48work towards
17:49rebuilding trust
17:50and confidence
17:51also by having
17:52a more pragmatic
17:53approach
17:53not a dogmatic
17:54not a bickering
17:56approach of the past
17:57not to be too tough
17:58but really open up
17:59to the United Kingdom
18:01and the world is
18:01a much more dangerous
18:02place since 10 years ago
18:03now we do know
18:04the EU and the UK
18:05have signed a defence
18:06and security partnership
18:07back in May 2025
18:08but is this working out?
18:10Look there's just not
18:11enough political energy
18:12behind this
18:14obviously Keir Starmer
18:15has had his problems
18:16and the Commission
18:18has had a very full agenda
18:20so the European Union
18:21EUK agenda
18:22has been very strongly
18:23pushed by Mara Sefkiewicz
18:25let's be absolutely
18:26clear about this
18:27but I am concerned
18:29about the slow progress
18:30on things like
18:31the ETS
18:32electricity trading
18:34SPS
18:35you know
18:35food
18:35and those relationships
18:37which we should be able
18:38to improve
18:39much more quickly
18:40than is the case
18:40and with the world
18:41in turmoil
18:41and the EU
18:42hoping to invest
18:43more in defence
18:44and security
18:44especially with the US
18:46pulling out of NATO
18:47there's a big gap
18:48in the budget
18:49now since Brexit
18:49we've seen like
18:50between 10 and 12 billion
18:51euros less
18:52in the coffers
18:53because the UK left
18:54what does that mean
18:56now for the EU's
18:57ambitions to invest
18:57in defence
18:58I think the UK
19:00are major military power
19:02also capable of investing
19:03and we really miss them
19:06there
19:06so as I said
19:07we sorely miss them
19:08also in this dimension
19:10and is there a solution
19:11for the EU
19:12to muster up
19:13the money itself
19:14try and leverage
19:14the EU budget
19:15that will mean
19:16that net payers
19:17such as my own country
19:18have to pay more
19:19and I'm not really
19:20in favour of
19:21having the defence
19:22which is primarily
19:23a national competence
19:25transferred to the EU level
19:27because really
19:28that development
19:29in the past
19:30also led to Brexit
19:31and also in my own
19:32member states
19:33if the net contribution
19:34of my own member state
19:35were to increase
19:37I think that would
19:38decrease also support
19:39for the European Union
19:40which has increased
19:41in the recent years
19:42so I think we should
19:43leave it there
19:44and find pragmatic
19:45solutions there
19:46Ok I want to dive deeper
19:47into that topic
19:48but first
19:48let's take a break
19:49here on The Ring
19:50stay with us though
19:51here on Euronews
20:01Welcome back to
20:02The Ring
20:02Euronews' weekly debate show
20:04I'm Maeve McMahan
20:05and I'm joined by
20:06Sander Schmidt
20:07Dutch MEP
20:07from the European
20:08Conservatives
20:09and Reformists
20:09and Barry Andrews
20:11Irish MEP
20:11from Renew Europe
20:13and today we're talking
20:14about how the EU
20:15is doing
20:1610 years after
20:17the Brexit referendum
20:18and if the country
20:19of 69 million people
20:21could ever rejoin again
20:22to get the view
20:23from Europeans
20:24on whether
20:25they should one day
20:26rejoin
20:26we consulted some data
20:27from the European Council
20:28on Foreign Relations
20:30that says
20:3066% of European respondents
20:33quote
20:34strongly support
20:35or tend to support
20:36UK membership
20:37support varies
20:38significantly
20:39from us
20:4056% in Bulgaria
20:41and 59% in France
20:43and Italy
20:44to 75%
20:45in the Netherlands
20:46and Denmark
20:47and backers of far right
20:48and Eurosceptic parties
20:49favour stronger
20:50UK EU ties
20:52including supporters
20:53of Germany's AFD
20:54and France's
20:55national rally
20:57so interesting
20:57data there
20:58and many sharing
21:00your view
21:00that they do indeed
21:01miss the Brits
21:01and they'd love to
21:02invite them back
21:03your reaction
21:03yeah well actually
21:04the figures are very similar
21:05to the polling figures
21:06in the UK
21:07so whereas
21:08it was 52%
21:10to leave
21:10now the figures
21:11are the other way
21:12there's most UK people
21:14consider that Brexit
21:16was a mistake
21:16they consider that
21:17rejoining is the correct way
21:19so really
21:20there's hugely fertile
21:21political ground
21:22available
21:22to whichever politician
21:24has the courage
21:25to articulate
21:26return to the European Union
21:27and to put that
21:28to the people
21:28and I think that
21:29the European Union
21:30should respond to that
21:32and provide a pathway
21:32to such a politician
21:33if they do have that courage
21:35and how should that path look
21:36are we talking about
21:36the red carpet being rolled out
21:38or are we talking about
21:39stricter membership
21:40no more opt-outs
21:42I think we need opt-outs as well
21:43because we'll never get them back
21:45if we're too dogmatic
21:47too strict there
21:48so I think we ought to offer them
21:50the old package
21:51so you almost want to go begging them
21:52the old package
21:53I think
21:54that would be
21:55then that's also
21:56what British voters
21:58and British citizens
21:59who were polled
21:59remember
22:00so if we come up
22:01with other
22:02extra regulations
22:03we need more pragmatism
22:04that's a very interesting view
22:06do you think
22:06other Europeans
22:07and European leaders
22:08would be on board with this
22:09no they wouldn't
22:10because clearly
22:11we do have
22:12differentiated accession
22:14so Ukraine
22:15may come in
22:16in the next few years
22:17but I anticipate
22:18that it will be
22:19on different terms
22:20to Western Balkans
22:22for example
22:22and I think the UK
22:23as a former member
22:25should be treated
22:26in a differentiated manner
22:27but I don't see
22:28the European Council
22:29supporting the idea
22:30of going back
22:30to the original package
22:32of rebate
22:33outside Schengen
22:34outside the euro
22:36I think some of those issues
22:37will have to be
22:38spoken about
22:39so you know
22:40while the UK
22:41are saying
22:41they want to return
22:42to the European Union
22:44the majority
22:44when you put the actual package
22:46it might be a different story
22:47so that debate
22:48has to happen
22:49in the UK
22:49initially
22:50before we have
22:51any discussions
22:52and 10 years on
22:53from now
22:53how do you visualise
22:54the European Union
22:55will it be enlarged
22:56it will
22:57in my ideal vision
22:59will be
23:00slightly
23:01maybe enlarged
23:02but enlargement
23:02is not a goal
23:03in itself
23:04I'd like to have
23:05the United Kingdom
23:06back
23:06and I think
23:06Norway and Iceland
23:07are perfect examples
23:09within the European
23:09economic area
23:11already
23:11to join the European Union
23:13but if
23:13European leaders
23:14are too tough
23:15and we don't
23:15have this pragmatism
23:17towards the United Kingdom
23:18now
23:18in the upcoming months
23:19this might only
23:21also slow down
23:22or close off
23:23the same development
23:24in Iceland
23:25and Norway
23:25I think
23:26if we follow it
23:28yeah I agree
23:28I think if we have
23:29a positive discussion
23:31about the UK
23:31I think the reputation
23:33of the European Union
23:34would be very very
23:35profoundly enhanced
23:36by seeing the UK
23:37recognise that it was
23:38a mistake to leave
23:39and to begin
23:40the process
23:41of applying
23:42to rejoin
23:42and just a final point
23:43on EU enlargement
23:44could the EU function
23:45as 30 or 35
23:47with this current
23:48veto system
23:48well look
23:49back in 2004
23:51when we had
23:51the biggest accession
23:53when all of the
23:54countries of
23:54Central and Eastern
23:55Europe joined
23:56the argument was
23:57the European Union
23:58is not going to be
23:58able to function
23:59without really
24:01expanding QMV
24:02and withdrawing
24:03veto power
24:04in fact
24:04Ireland
24:05and other smaller
24:06member states
24:06insisted on keeping
24:07veto power
24:08and making sure
24:09that we limited
24:09QMV
24:10and the roof
24:12hasn't fallen in
24:13in fact the European
24:14Union does continue
24:15to operate quite well
24:16having said that
24:17from a foreign
24:18policy point of view
24:19I believe that there
24:20are areas where
24:20there should be
24:21an expanded QMV
24:22is that pragmatic
24:23no as Barry said
24:25I think the European
24:25Union should continue
24:27as it is
24:28as the treaty
24:29is now
24:29with the veto
24:30the number
24:31of veto
24:31vetoes
24:32and policies
24:33has already
24:34been limited
24:34in the past
24:35before the treaty
24:36of Lisbon
24:36as well
24:36and I think
24:37we now
24:38have to
24:38safeguard
24:39this unanimity
24:41principle
24:41especially
24:42if we want
24:42the UK back
24:43if we want
24:44Iceland
24:44and smaller
24:45member states
24:45like Norway
24:47potential member states
24:48to join
24:49and it will
24:49really scare
24:50off
24:50these
24:52potential
24:52or real
24:53candidates
24:54if we
24:55abolish
24:55the national
24:56veto
24:56and for my
24:57own member states
24:57it's also been
24:58very important
24:59not only for Ireland
25:00but for other
25:00smaller member states
25:01to uphold
25:02the veto
25:03OK
25:03well it is now
25:04time to move
25:05on to our
25:05fifth and
25:06final round
25:11And like always
25:12to close
25:12we do something
25:13a little bit
25:14different
25:14I'm going to
25:15ask our MEPs
25:16a set of
25:16questions
25:16and you can
25:17only answer
25:18with yes
25:19or no
25:19is that doable?
25:21Maybe
25:22Is the European
25:23Union to blame
25:24for the Brexit
25:24vote yes or no?
25:26Yes
25:26No
25:27Is Nigel Farage
25:29perhaps to blame
25:29for the Brexit
25:30vote yes or no?
25:31Yes
25:31yes and yes
25:34Is Nigel Farage
25:35to blame
25:35for the Brexit
25:35vote yes or no?
25:36Yes yes
25:37Was Brexit
25:38a wake-up call
25:39for the European
25:39Union Sander?
25:40Yes
25:41Yes I think
25:42that's fair
25:42I think
25:44it's forced
25:44the European
25:45Union to reflect
25:45in a way
25:46that it hasn't
25:46done for a long
25:47time
25:47Is the European
25:49Union more
25:49democratic now
25:50today than it
25:51was ten years
25:52ago yes or no?
25:53There has been
25:54no treaty change
25:54so no
25:55it hasn't changed
25:56no
25:57Did disinformation
25:58decide the
25:59referendum in the
26:00UK yes or no?
26:02Yes I think
26:03Yes
26:03Cambridge Analytica
26:04Russian money
26:05massive disinformation
26:06And will the European
26:07Union ever speak
26:08with one voice?
26:09Yes
26:12Yes
26:14And is Ursula von der Leyen
26:16a good leader
26:17yes or no?
26:18No
26:18I don't think so
26:19Yes or no?
26:21Sometimes
26:21she's good
26:22on Israel
26:23she's been a disaster
26:24Is the EU
26:25doing enough
26:26to stay competitive
26:27against the US
26:27and China
26:28Shander
26:28No
26:29absolutely not
26:30we need more
26:30deregulation
26:31No
26:32And has the European
26:33Union become
26:34too dependent
26:34on regulation
26:35yes or no?
26:37Yes
26:38Yes
26:39That is the big
26:40debate of course
26:41of Brussels today
26:42Should national
26:43vetoes in foreign
26:43policy be abolished?
26:45I know your answer
26:46No
26:47No
26:47In some instances
26:49yes
26:49Good to have
26:49allies in renew
26:51Has the EU
26:52Green Deal
26:53strengthened
26:54the European
26:54economy?
26:55Yes
26:55I don't think so
26:57not overall
26:59And will we see
27:00another Brexit
27:00in the next 10 years?
27:02No way
27:02No
27:03And one final question
27:04Is the future
27:05of the European Union
27:06bright?
27:07Yes or no?
27:08Yes
27:11Come on Sander
27:12you know the right answer
27:14Yes
27:14if we uphold
27:15the national veto
27:16and respect
27:17this national sovereignty
27:18as well
27:19And on that conclusion
27:19we can bring this edition
27:20of The Ring to an end
27:22We'd love to hear as well
27:23from you
27:23The Ring
27:24at youruse.com
27:25That is our email address
27:27Barry Andrews
27:27and Sander Schmidt
27:28Thank you so much
27:28for being our guests
27:29Thank you so much
27:30for watching
27:30Take care
27:31and see you soon