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Migração na Europa: segurança vs solidariedade? Confronto entre eurodeputados no ringue
Esta semana, The Ring debruça-se sobre o debate europeu sobre a migração, numa altura em que a UE adopta regras de deportação mais rigorosas e explora os controversos "centros de regresso" para os requerentes de asilo rejeitados fora da União.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2025/12/18/migracao-na-europa-seguranca-vs-solidariedade-confronto-entre-eurodeputados-no-ringue
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
Esta semana, The Ring debruça-se sobre o debate europeu sobre a migração, numa altura em que a UE adopta regras de deportação mais rigorosas e explora os controversos "centros de regresso" para os requerentes de asilo rejeitados fora da União.
LEIA MAIS : http://pt.euronews.com/2025/12/18/migracao-na-europa-seguranca-vs-solidariedade-confronto-entre-eurodeputados-no-ringue
Subscreva, euronews está disponível em 12 línguas.
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NotíciasTranscrição
00:00Olá, e bem-vindo ao The Ring,
00:12a brand-new debate show
00:13da União Europeia em Strasbourg
00:16em Strasbourg, em Strasbourg.
00:17E uma semana a semana,
00:18nós falamos com dois membros
00:19da União Europeia.
00:21Eles viram face-to-face
00:22para confrontar suas views
00:24sobre os mais pressionais
00:25para a Europa.
00:27E essa semana,
00:27a União Europeia em Migração Polícia.
00:30Vamos começar.
00:33A few meses depois da União Europeia
00:35adoptar a nova Migração-and-Asylum Pacto,
00:38que deveria entrar na força
00:39por junio de 2026,
00:41a União Europeia adivou
00:43de aberturação e a creación
00:45de retornhubes
00:46para os que já estão coitados
00:48no Brasil,
00:48que podem ter em raio do EU.
00:51Essas reformas e calls
00:52come amid a risa
00:53em anti-migração policies
00:54e far-right parties
00:56em países europeus, e agora é o parlamento europeu para ratificar ou desmissá-los.
01:03Até agora, a polícia anti-migração não parecem ter a desigualdade.
01:08Recent statistics show que o número de asylum seekers é diminuído em Europa,
01:12mas o influxo de refugiados continua e o crossamento permanece morto,
01:16enquanto ativistas e NGOs warnam da continuidade de desigualdade humana.
01:21Então, a pergunta persiste,
01:23são os tófer-eu-migração policies a caminho para a caminho,
01:26ou são eles apenas a forma de manter a far-right at bay?
01:29Então, são os estritores a caminho para a caminho,
01:35ou são eles apenas a forma de manter a far-right at bay?
01:39É a pergunta que vamos perguntar para os contadores.
01:42Vamos ao encontro.
01:44Charlie Weimers,
01:46Swedish MEP,
01:48vice-president of the European Conservatives and Reformist Group.
01:51An advocate for much stricter migration controls at the EU level,
01:55he has proposed physical border barriers around the EU
01:58to deter irregular migration.
02:00We do not want more asylum migration for the moment,
02:03he once said.
02:07Lee Andersen,
02:08Finnish MEP for the left group in the European Parliament.
02:11Former Minister of Education,
02:14she focuses on equality, social justice,
02:16workers' rights and human rights.
02:18Pushbacks are contrary to international human rights law,
02:21and the assessment of their legality
02:23will remain in the hands of the courts,
02:25not the Commission, she said.
02:27Mr. Weimers and Madame Andersen,
02:31thank you very much for joining us on The Ring.
02:34Is migration a problem, or is it an opportunity?
02:37Well, unfortunately, it is a problem,
02:40because of decades of mass uncontrolled immigration,
02:43which has led to segregation,
02:46increased crime, as in my home country,
02:50where we used to regard shootings and bombings
02:54as something that others experienced.
02:57Now it's an everyday experience in Sweden.
03:00So we have big problems,
03:02and we have to get now breathing room to deal with them.
03:06Same question for you, Madame Andersen.
03:08Well, I think it's clear that Europe needs migration.
03:11We are part of the world that is growing older,
03:15so it's clear that we need more people.
03:18But it's also clear that the way that Europe
03:20has handled the migration policy
03:22has also created a lot of human rights problems.
03:24Look at the Mediterranean, for example,
03:26where the lack of legal pathways
03:28has led to thousands and thousands of tragic deaths.
03:31We also know that many members of the EU states
03:34have not implemented the EU asylum policy
03:37or even the decision of the courts in a uniform way.
03:40So there are problems, but the problems are human rights problems.
03:43Let me go back to you, however.
03:45You said there is now, if I understood correctly,
03:47a clear connection between migration and crime.
03:51Some would say that is flat-out racist.
03:53How do you respond?
03:55I would say just go to the Strasbourg Christmas Market.
03:59It used to be a fortress back in the 80s,
04:02the 90s, even 15 years ago.
04:05Today it is a fortress reminding us
04:08of how it used to be in the green zone in Baghdad under the US occupation.
04:14And that has with migration to do.
04:16The foiled terror attack against the Christmas Market in Germany
04:19had with migration to do.
04:21Because these were jihadists, Islamists,
04:24that wanted to hurt ordinary Europeans.
04:26This is the traditional way of argumenting for the far right and the extreme right.
04:30So they try to equate all debate and all discussion around migration to be about crime.
04:35Crime is crime, and it needs to be addressed as crime.
04:38Yes, we need to fight organized crime.
04:40Yes, we need to fight terrorism.
04:42We have tools and policies to do that.
04:44But I do also think that Europeans know that when we talk about migration,
04:48we also talk about their neighbors.
04:50We talk about their classmates.
04:52We talk about families and people that they live with, work with, study with.
04:57So when we talk about migration policy, we need to be able to look at the full picture
05:02and also to discuss people that have a reason to apply, for example, for asylum
05:08and that might also have a reason to receive asylum within the European Union.
05:12He did mention something important and interesting,
05:14which is the Christmas Market in Strasbourg now is boarded up because of the idea of terror.
05:19Do you associate that to migration?
05:22I think we do a very big mistake also for the cohesion of our societies if we equate terrorism with migration,
05:31exactly for the reasons that I said.
05:33Europe is a continent consisting of people that have come here from different places that live here,
05:39that work here, that have families here, that pay taxes here, that get their pensions here and so on.
05:45We need to fight crime as crime, but we should not mix it up with the whole discussion on migration policy.
05:52Well, I wonder when the far left will connect the dots, because if you look at terrorist attacks in Europe,
06:00they are very often committed by people with a non-European background.
06:06in your own hometown of Turku, a failed asylum seeker murdered citizens of Finland.
06:15And, you know, why was he still allowed to be in Finland?
06:19Because of rules that you defend that makes it impossible to deport convicted rapists and terrorists to their home countries.
06:28Why do you defend these rules?
06:30And do you know, in my hometown of Turku, where there was this terrible terrorist accident, a knife attack,
06:35do you know who were the persons to intervene in that situation?
06:39They were also asylum seekers.
06:42In my hometown, nobody bought into this rhetoric of the extreme right,
06:47because they also saw the people who were courageous enough to intervene in that situation
06:52to try and protect the innocent civilians that became victims of this knife attack.
06:57Yes, there are criminals.
06:59Some of them have a migrant background.
07:01Yes, we need to be serious when we talk about fighting terrorism and organized crime.
07:05But we cannot make a creative picture where we try and present all migrants or all asylum seekers as criminals,
07:13because that is not true.
07:14That does not reflect reality.
07:16That did not reflect the reality in my hometown of Turku,
07:19and it does not reflect the reality where Europeans live.
07:22I want to give you a right reply, but to play devil's advocate,
07:24some would argue there would have been no attack and therefore no need to intervene
07:28if that person who did not have a legal permit to be in Europe had not been there at that time.
07:32That's the core of the issue.
07:34Is it possible to create a society with absolutely no migration?
07:40It is not.
07:42That kind of solutions to the societal problems,
07:45I mean, one problem with the far right is that they want to solve every societal problem
07:50with saying that as long as we restrict migration, this will go away.
07:54Unemployment, let's restrict migration.
07:56Terrorism, let's restrict, or crime, let's restrict migration.
08:00Learning outcomes going down, let's restrict migration.
08:04But you do not actually present any solutions to the societal problems at hand.
08:09What are your solutions to fight the specific topic of crime or terrorism,
08:15or the specific topic of unemployment, or the specific topic of learning outcomes?
08:20It's not enough to just say that you want closed borders.
08:24The borders will never be completely closed.
08:26There will still be criminals.
08:28We will still have learning outcomes that go down.
08:31We will still have problems with unemployment.
08:33So we need to be able to address these societal problems for what they are,
08:37with real political solutions to them.
08:40Well, I would invite you to read the statistics from Sweden
08:44showing that the immigration has led to an increase of crime.
08:47It's not me saying that it's the crime prevention agency in Sweden.
08:51So the statistics is there.
08:55You just have to bother to have a look at it.
08:58Also, when it comes to the issue of putting everyone in the same basket.
09:05No, that's not the case.
09:07We differ between those who build cars, who contribute, and those who burn cars.
09:12And the question is here, Leanderjon, why do you say no to the deportation of criminal foreigners?
09:20Because that's what you do if there's a slight theoretical risk for them in their home country.
09:25Why don't you want to send them home?
09:27Firstly, we've actually had a lot of experts from Sweden coming to Finland saying,
09:33do not repeat the mistakes we have done in Sweden when it comes, for example, to segregation.
09:38Do not create societies where you have working class families living in separate areas
09:44without any kind of perspective of social mobility, of being able to create the life that they want for themselves.
09:51When it comes to deportation of criminals, my party has not said no.
09:56It is possible to deport offenders that have committed serious crimes as long as the principle of non-reforma is respected.
10:06So that is the only kind of limit, I would say legally, to when it's not possible to do it.
10:12And that, of course, I think we both agree we need to respect.
10:16But we have not said a categorical no to deportations of criminals.
10:21We have to now move on in the show, it's called The Ring, so let's take gloves off.
10:30Now, of course, as we always say, it is time for our viewers to get a real taste of the European Parliament
10:35and what it looks like from within. You both obviously are elected to protect your constituents
10:40and also ask each other tough questions and bring up tough issues.
10:44So now I will give you the floor so you can ask each other questions.
10:47And I know I cut you off. So, Mr. Viners, I will give you the first question. You have the floor.
10:51Paris cancelled its New Year's Eve celebrations. The Christmas market here in Strasbourg looks like it's under siege, a fortress.
11:04Families are afraid to go out. Is that a price worth paying for Europeans in order to preserve liberal asylum policies?
11:12That is a price that we are paying for the rise of extremism in Europe.
11:17And we see it both. There is Islamist extremism. There is far-right extremism.
11:24We have seen examples of terrorism attacks of both of these.
11:27And I do honestly think that if we engage in this kind of debate that the extreme and the far-right is doing,
11:35where they kind of put the shadow of doubt on every single member of our societies that have a background from somewhere else,
11:44whose family has a background from somewhere else, we do not actually fight the root causes of extremism.
11:50We make it worse. So I think we should let the police do its work when it comes to combating terrorism and crime.
11:57And our responsibility as decision makers and policy makers is to make sure that we do not create more division in our societies, but less.
12:08And now, of course, it's your turn for a question.
12:11So, Charlie Weimers, I'm interested to know if you would say that Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia are safe countries.
12:22For example, for people belonging to the LGBT community or for journalists or political dissidents.
12:30These are safe countries. They're not at war. They have no situation in which a major persecution is ongoing.
12:39So we should be able to send back migrants coming from there because those migrants are generally not fleeing for their lives.
12:47So you're saying it's not an ideal place, perhaps, for your lifestyle.
12:52But if you do not have the right to be legal in Europe, you should go back to Morocco.
12:56That's what I'm saying. And this has been the problem for many years that people have been coming to Europe,
13:02not because they fled a war, but because they looked for a better life.
13:08They came from safe countries of origin.
13:11But prosecution may not be a war. She's talking about the LGBTQ plus community.
13:15You don't have to be a war to be prosecuted.
13:17I understand that it's not optimal for an LGBTQ person to be in Morocco,
13:23but we cannot be the destination of all people living under non-Western regimes.
13:30That's not how it can work. And we also have the situation where people pass through safe countries on their way to countries such as Germany, Finland, Sweden.
13:40And that can't stand. That's why it's so important what the commission has now proposed and what we're dealing with now in the parliament
13:50to establish these safe countries of origin.
13:52So you're saying it's not ideal, but it's also not Europe's problem.
13:55Yes.
13:56I think there is a huge contradiction here when it comes to the rhetoric of the extreme and the far right.
14:01Because on the one hand, you're kind of saying that everybody, you know, that these countries, these cultures,
14:06that these people that are coming here are dangerous and they do not respect.
14:10I mean, this is your rhetoric. This is how you talk, not me.
14:13And they do not respect the rules of our societies.
14:16They do not respect women's rights, for example, or the rights of LGBT community.
14:21But then when it comes to EU legislation, you're all of a sudden saying that, yes, it's completely safe for people who belong to the LGBTQI community
14:28or for journalists, political dissidents, young women to go back to these countries.
14:32No need to be very specific when it comes to their asylum claims.
14:35And this is also actually contradictory to what the European Parliament itself has said,
14:40that has adopted several resolutions concerning the human rights abuses and problems in, for example, Egypt and Tunisia.
14:48You talk about violence and some of the violence that some women may face if they have to go back to countries that you say are not safe.
14:54Some argue, however, women in Europe, and I'm sure you would agree with this, have become less safe as a result of uncontrolled illegal migration.
15:02And this is exactly the contradiction of their rhetoric. I mean, I have always said that we have patriarchal structures everywhere.
15:12So it's a patriarchy. I don't know any society that is free, unfortunately, is free from violence against women that are free from patriarchal structures.
15:20But the foreign extreme right try to present it as this is something that is coming to Europe from elsewhere.
15:25And now at the same time, migration is a patriarchy. That's a problem.
15:28I would say so, because do you know any society that is free of those problems?
15:32I do not, unfortunately. I mean, there are countries and regimes such as the Taliban regime where it's, of course, much, much worse.
15:40But I also come from a country with very high numbers when it comes to violence against women and domestic violence.
15:46So trying to say that this is a problem only in some places is not correct.
15:52OK, well, just for a second, let's stop here, because I want to bring in now a new voice.
15:58And now in reaction to the European Council's decision to reform the EU migration pact, which you alluded to and introduces now a solidarity pull, the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said on social media that, quote,
16:16the latest Brazilian decision requires that from next July, Hungary must either take migrants in from other European countries or pay for them.
16:26We want to make it absolutely clear. And that's a quote for once and for all that as long as Hungary has a national government, we will not implement this outrageous decision.
16:37Now, my question to you is, does Viktor Orbán have a point?
16:41Yeah, well, Sweden is among those countries supposed to take the most migrants through this solidarity mechanism.
16:49And I wonder, has the commission even looked at how many migrants Sweden has taken during the last decades?
16:56No, they have not. They have not taken that into account.
17:00So instead, we will have to pay in to Brussels a fee for not receiving forced migration upon Sweden.
17:09I think that's a principle in breach with subsidiarity.
17:12That's why I voted against that principle.
17:15And that's why I claim that it's morally wrong.
17:17The Italians, the Spanish, the Greeks, they'll say we need help.
17:20And that means either financial compensation or a quota.
17:22How do you respond to that?
17:23That should be managed through the ordinary EU budget.
17:26They should get help.
17:27They should get EU financing for border barriers, which they are not being provided with at the moment, which my opponent is against.
17:37So that we could offer, but not by implementing a system in which Sweden is supposed to accept migrants by dictate from Brussels.
17:46And on this point, either you take a quota of people or you pay to facilitate, obviously, financial assistance.
17:53Some would argue the issue is that that's not really how it works.
17:57The core problem is the number of arrivals to deal with it.
18:00You need to bring down that migration.
18:02This migration pact will not work in real life, will it?
18:05I think it depends very much on what other types of policies and actions the EU will do in terms of migration,
18:11like how we succeed in terms with legal pathways, for example.
18:16As long as there are no legal pathways, we will continue to see irregular flows of migrants
18:21doing these very dangerous trips over the Mediterranean.
18:24And I sincerely hope that Sweden will not walk down the path of Hungary where you openly disobey binding EU law.
18:32So I think that this solidarity mechanism is a good part of this asylum and migration policy pact
18:38that was decided last mandate.
18:41Because at the moment, the biggest pressure, of course, is directed at these countries in the southern part of Europe
18:48just because of their geographical location.
18:50But they don't want the money. They want people out.
18:52Exactly. And I think they have a point there.
18:53They say, we don't want people in.
18:54I think they have a point there.
18:55I don't think it's fair that they introduced this possibility of buying yourself out of solidarity
19:00as part of this solidarity mechanism.
19:02So I think it would be much better actually if you would then require countries to actually accept migrants
19:08and hopefully also that the relocation can be done on a voluntary basis.
19:12So accept migrants and relocation?
19:13From the point of view of the migrants.
19:15That would lead to a massive crisis of legitimacy.
19:18Brussels forcing migrants upon unwilling member states.
19:22Can you imagine the popular reaction?
19:24Well, I think that parties like mine would thrive.
19:27So, à la bonheur.
19:29But it's also Brussels that has decided to use these rules about you having to apply for asylum in the first country that you arrive to.
19:37And this is what has created the pressure on southern Europe.
19:41So whether we like it or not, this is a European question.
19:44OK, let's take a short break.
19:45We've got to take a short break here on The Ring.
19:48Please, however, stay with us.
19:49We'll be back very soon with more Political Punch.
19:53Hello and welcome to The Ring.
20:05Euronews' brand new debate show from the European Parliament in Strasbourg to your home.
20:10And once a week we speak to two elected members of the European Parliament.
20:14They come face to face to confront their views about the most pressing issues for Europe.
20:20This week, the EU's migration policy.
20:22Let's get started.
20:23Only a few months after the EU adopted a new migration and asylum pact, which should enter into force by June 2026,
20:34The European Council agreed on stricture deportation measures and the creation of return hubs for rejected asylum seekers potentially located outside the EU.
20:43These reforms and calls come amid a rise in anti-migration policies and far-right parties in European countries.
20:50And now it's the European Parliament's turn to ratify or dismiss them.
20:54So far, though, the tougher anti-migration policies don't seem to have the desired effect.
21:01Recent statistics show that the number of asylum seekers is going down in Europe, but the influx of refugees continues and the crossing remains deadly,
21:09while activists and NGOs warn of the continuous neglect of human rights.
21:14Therefore, the question persists, are tougher EU migration policies the way forward or are they just a way to keep the far right at bay?
21:26So are stricter rules the way forward or is this just a way to keep the far right at bay?
21:32That's a question that we'll be asking to our contenders. Let's meet them.
21:38Charlie Weimers, Swedish MEP, vice president of the European Conservatives and Reformists Group.
21:44An advocate for much stricter migration controls at the EU level, he has proposed physical border barriers around the EU to deter irregular migration.
21:53We do not want more asylum migration for the moment, he once said.
21:58Lee Andersen, Finnish MEP for the left group in the European Parliament.
22:05Former Minister of Education, she focuses on equality, social justice, workers' rights and human rights.
22:11Pushbacks are contrary to international human rights law and the assessment of their legality will remain in the hands of the courts, not the commission, she said.
22:21Mr. Weimers and Madam Anderson, thank you very much for joining us on The Ring.
22:28Is migration a problem or is it an opportunity?
22:31Well, unfortunately, it is a problem because of decades of mass uncontrolled immigration, which has led to segregation, increased crime, as in my home country, where we used to regard shootings and bombings as something that others experienced.
22:51Now it's an everyday experience in Sweden. So we have big problems and we have to get now breathing room to deal with them.
23:00Same question for you, Madam Anderson.
23:02Well, I think it's clear that Europe needs migration. We are part of the world that is growing older, so it's clear that we need more people.
23:11But it's also clear that the way that Europe has handled the migration policy has also created a lot of human rights problems.
23:18Look at the Mediterranean, for example, where the lack of legal pathways has led to thousands and thousands of tragic deaths.
23:24We also know that many members of the EU states have not implemented the EU asylum policy or even the decision of the courts in a uniform way.
23:33So there are problems, but the problems are human rights problems.
23:36Let me go back to you. However, you said there is now, if I understood correctly, a clear connection between migration and crime.
23:44Some would say that is flat out racist. How do you respond?
23:47I would say just go to the Strasbourg Christmas market. Did it used to be a fortress back in the 80s, the 90s, even 15 years ago.
23:58Today, it is a fortress reminding us of how it used to be in the green zone in Baghdad under the US occupation.
24:07And that has with migration to do. The foiled terror attack against the Christmas market in Germany had with migration to do,
24:14because these were jihadists, Islamists that wanted to hurt ordinary Europeans.
24:19This is the traditional way of argumenting for the far right and the extreme right.
24:23So they try to equate all debate and all discussion around migration to be about crime. Crime is crime and it needs to be addressed as crime.
24:31Yes, we need to fight organized crime. Yes, we need to fight terrorism. We have tools and policies to do that.
24:37But I do also think that Europeans know that when we talk about migration, we also talk about their neighbors.
24:43We talk about their classmates. We talk about families and people that they live with, work with, study with.
24:50So when we talk about migration policy, we need to be able to look at the full picture and also to discuss people that have a reason to apply, for example, for asylum.
25:01And that might also have a reason to receive asylum within the European Union.
25:05He did mention something important and interesting, which is the Christmas market in Strasbourg now is boarded up because of the idea of terror.
25:13Do you associate that to to migration?
25:16I think we do a very big mistake also for the cohesion of our societies if we equate terrorism with migration, exactly for the reasons that I said.
25:26Europe is a continent consisting of people that have come here from different places that live here, that work here, that have families here, that pay taxes here, that get their pensions here and so on.
25:38We need to fight crime as crime, but we should not mix it up with the whole discussion on migration policy.
25:45Well, I wonder when the far left will connect the dots, because if you look at terrorist attacks in Europe, they are very often committed by people with a non-European background.
25:59In your own hometown of Turku, a failed asylum seeker murdered citizens of Finland.
26:08And, you know, why was he still allowed to be in Finland?
26:12Because of rules that you defend that makes it impossible to deport convicted rapists and terrorists to their home countries.
26:21Why do you defend these rules?
26:22And do you know, in my hometown of Turku, where there was this terrible terrorist accident, a knife attack, do you know who were the persons to intervene in that situation?
26:33They were also asylum seekers.
26:36In my hometown, nobody bought into this rhetoric of the extreme right, because they also saw the people who were courageous enough to intervene in that situation to try and protect the innocent civilians that became victims of this knife attack.
26:50Yes, there are criminals. Some of them have a migrant background. Yes, we need to be serious when we talk about fighting terrorism and organized crime.
26:59But we cannot make a creative picture where we try and present all migrants or all asylum seekers as criminals, because that is not true.
27:08That does not reflect reality. That did not reflect the reality in my hometown of Turku. And it does not reflect the reality where Europeans live.
27:15I want to give you a right reply. But to play devil's advocate, some would argue there would have been no attack and therefore no need to intervene if that person who did not have a legal permit to be in Europe had not been there at that time.
27:25That's the core of the issue.
27:27Is it possible to create a society with absolutely no migration? It is not that kind of solutions to the societal problems.
27:38I mean, one problem with the far right is that they want to solve every societal problem with saying that as long as we restrict migration, this will go away.
27:46Unemployment, let's restrict migration. Terrorism or crime, let's restrict migration. Learning outcomes going down, let's restrict migration.
27:57But you do not actually present any solutions to the societal problems at hand. What are your solutions to fight the specific topic of crime or terrorism or the specific topic of unemployment or the specific topic of learning outcomes?
28:13It's not enough to just say that you want closed borders. The borders will never be completely closed. There will still be criminals. We will still have learning outcomes that go down. We will still have problems with unemployment.
28:26So we need to be able to address these societal problems for what they are with real political solutions to them.
28:33Well, I would invite you to read the statistics from Sweden showing that the immigration has led to an increase of crime.
28:40It's not me saying that it's the crime prevention agency in Sweden. So the statistics is there. You just have to bother to have a look at it.
28:51Also, when it comes to the issue of putting everyone in the same basket. No, that's not the case. We differ between those who build cars, who contribute and those who burn cars.
29:05And the question is here, Leanderjon, why do you say no to the deportation of criminal foreigners? Because that's what you do if there's a slight theoretical risk for them in their home country.
29:18Why don't you want to send them home?
29:21Firstly, we've actually had a lot of experts from Sweden coming to Finland saying, do not repeat the mistakes we have done in Sweden when it comes, for example, segregation.
29:31Do not create societies where you have working class families living in separate areas without any kind of perspective of social mobility, of being able to create the life that they want for themselves.
29:44When it comes to deportation of criminals, my party has not said no. It is possible to deport offenders that have committed serious crimes as long as the principle of non reforma is respected.
29:59So that is the only kind of limit, I would say legally to when it's not possible to do it. And that, of course, I think we both agree we need to respect, but we have not said a categorical no to deportations of criminals.
30:14We have to now move on in the show. It's called The Ring. So let's take gloves off.
30:21Now, of course, as we always say, it is time for our viewers to get a real taste of the European Parliament and what it looks like from within.
30:30You both obviously are elected to protect your constituents and also ask each other tough questions and bring up tough issues.
30:37So now I will give you the floor so you can ask each other questions and I know I cut you off.
30:42So, Mr. Viners, I will give you the first question. You have the floor.
30:44Paris canceled its New Year's Eve celebrations. The Christmas market here in Strasbourg looks like it's under siege, a fortress.
30:57Families are afraid to go out. Is that a price worth paying for Europeans in order to preserve liberal asylum policies?
31:05That is a price that we are paying for the rise of extremism in Europe. And we see it both. There is Islamist extremism. There is far-right extremism.
31:17We have seen examples of terrorism attacks of both of these. And I do honestly think that if we engage in this kind of debate that the extreme and the far-right is doing,
31:28where they kind of put the shadow of doubt on every single member of our societies that have a background from somewhere else, whose family has a background from somewhere else,
31:40we do not actually fight the root causes of extremism. We make it worse. So I think we should let the police do its work when it comes to combating terrorism and crime.
31:50And our responsibility as decision makers and policy makers is to make sure that we do not create more division in our societies, but less.
32:02And now, of course, it's your turn for a question. So, Charlie Weimers, I'm interested to know if you would say that Morocco, Egypt and Tunisia are safe countries,
32:16for example, for people belonging to the LGBT community or for journalists or political dissidents.
32:23These are safe countries. They're not at war. They have no situation in which a major persecution is ongoing.
32:33So we should be able to send back migrants coming from there because those migrants are generally not fleeing for their lives.
32:41So you're saying it's not an ideal place, perhaps, for your lifestyle. But if you do not have the right to be legal in Europe, you should go back to Morocco.
32:50That's what I'm saying. And this has been the problem for many years that people have been coming to Europe, not because they fled a war,
32:58but because they looked for a better life. They came from safe countries of origin.
33:04But prosecution may not be a war. She's talking about the LGBTQ community. You don't have to be a war to be prosecuted.
33:10I understand that it's not optimal for an LGBTQ person to be in Morocco, but we cannot be the destination of all people living under non-Western regimes.
33:23That's not how it can work. And we also have the situation where people pass through safe countries on their way to countries such as Germany, Finland, Sweden.
33:33And that can't stand. That's why it's so important what the commission has now proposed and what we're dealing with now in the parliament to establish these safe countries of origin.
33:45So you're saying it's not ideal, but it's also not Europe's problem. Yes.
33:50I think there is a huge contradiction here when it comes to the rhetoric of the extreme and the far right.
33:55Because on the one hand, you're kind of saying that everybody, you know, that these countries, these cultures, that these people that are coming here are dangerous.
34:02And they do not respect. I mean, this is your rhetoric. This is how you talk, not me.
34:06And they do not respect the rules of our societies. They do not respect women's rights, for example, or the rights of LGBT community.
34:14But then when it comes to EU legislation, you're all of a sudden saying that, yes, it's completely safe for people who belong to the LGBTQI community or for journalists, political dissidents, young women to go back to these countries.
34:25No need to be very specific when it comes to their asylum claims.
34:28And this is also actually contradictory to what the European Parliament itself has said that has adopted several resolutions with concerning the human rights abuses and problems in, for example, Egypt and Tunisia.
34:41You talk about violence and some of the violence that some women may face if they have to go back to countries that you say are not safe.
34:47Some argue, however, women in Europe, and I'm sure you would agree with this, have become less safe as a result of uncontrolled illegal migration.
34:55And this is exactly the contradiction of their rhetoric. I mean, I have always said that we have patriarchal structures everywhere.
35:06I don't know any society that is free, unfortunately, is free from violence against women that are free from patriarchal structures.
35:13But the foreign extreme right try to present it as this is something that is coming to Europe from elsewhere.
35:19And now at the same time...
35:20So it's not migration, is it patriarchy that's a problem?
35:22I would say so, because do you know any society that is free of those problems?
35:26I do not, unfortunately. I mean, there are countries and regimes such as the Taliban regime where it's, of course, much, much worse.
35:34But I also come from a country with very high numbers when it comes to violence against women and domestic violence.
35:40So trying to say that this is a problem only in some places is not correct.
35:45OK, well, just for a second, let's stop here, because I want to bring in now a new voice.
35:51And now in reaction to the European Council's decision to reform the EU migration pact, which you alluded to and introduces now a solidarity pool,
36:04the Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orbán said on social media that, quote,
36:09the latest Brazilian decision requires that from next July, Hungary must either take migrants in from other European countries or pay for them.
36:18I want to make it absolutely clear, and that's a quote, for once and for all, that as long as Hungary has a national government,
36:25we will not implement this outrageous decision.
36:30Now, my question to you is, does Viktor Orbán have a point?
36:34Yeah, well, Sweden is among those countries supposed to take the most migrants through this solidarity mechanism.
36:42And I wonder, has the commission even looked at how many migrants Sweden has taken during the last decades?
36:49No, they have not. They have not taken that into account.
36:53So instead, we will have to pay in to Brussels a fee for not receiving forced migration upon Sweden.
37:01I think that's a principle in breach with subsidiarity.
37:05That's why I voted against that principle.
37:08And that's why I claim that it's morally wrong.
37:10The Italians, the Spanish, the Greeks, they'll say we need help.
37:13And that means either financial compensation or a real quota.
37:15How do you respond to that?
37:16That should be managed through the ordinary EU budget.
37:20They should get help. They should get EU financing for border barriers, which they are not being provided with at the moment, which my opponent is against.
37:31So that we could offer, but not by implementing a system in which Sweden is supposed to accept migrants by dictate from Brussels.
37:40And on this point, either you take a quota of people or you pay to facilitate, obviously, financial assistance.
37:47Some would argue the issue is that that's not really how it works.
37:51The core problem is the number of arrivals to deal with it.
37:54You need to bring down that migration.
37:56This migration pact will not work in real life, will it?
37:59I think it depends very much on what other types of policies and actions the EU will do in terms of migration, like how we succeed in terms with legal pathways, for example.
38:09As long as there are no legal pathways, we will continue to see irregular flows of migrants doing these very dangerous trips over the Mediterranean.
38:18And I sincerely hope that Sweden will not walk down the path of Hungary where you openly disobey binding EU law.
38:25So I think that this solidarity mechanism is a good part of this asylum and migration policy pact that was decided last Monday.
38:34Because at the moment, the biggest pressure, of course, is directed at these countries in the southern part of Europe just because of their geographical location.
38:43But they don't want the money.
38:44They want people out.
38:45Exactly.
38:46And I think they have a point there.
38:47They say, we don't want people in.
38:48I think they have a point there.
38:49I don't think it's fair that they introduced this possibility of buying yourself out of solidarity as part of this solidarity mechanism.
38:55So I think it would be much better actually if you would then require countries to actually accept migrants and hopefully also that the relocation can be done on a voluntary basis.
39:05So accept migrants and relocation.
39:06From the point of view of the migrants.
39:08That would lead to a massive crisis of legitimacy.
39:11Brussels forcing migrants upon unwilling member states.
39:15Can you imagine the popular reaction?
39:17Well, I think that parties like mine would thrive.
39:20So, à la bonne heure.
39:22But it's also, I mean, it is also Brussels that has decided to use these rules about you having to apply for asylum in the first country that you are right to.
39:31And this is what has created the pressure on southern Europe.
39:34So whether we like it or not, this is a European question.
39:37OK, let's take a short break.
39:39We've got to take a short break here on The Ring.
39:41Please, however, stay with us.
39:43We'll be back very soon with more Political Punch.
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